Shen Theory revisited

[Trunk]

We've talked about shen theory before and I look at it as center based. Basically, the idea is that different centers have different aesthetics and agendas - and aren't usually in good communication about it.

 

 

There's been some confusion on this topic in the past,

and I hope this video will clear things up.

(Sorry about the fuzzy video.)

 

 

Edit:

Corrected w/Smile's clearer vid.

2nd edit for new "media" command.

[hagar]

We've talked about shen theory before and I look at it as center based. Basically, the idea is that different centers have different aesthetics and agendas - and aren't usually in good communication about it.

 

 

There's been some confusion on this topic in the past,

and I hope this video will clear things up.

(Sorry about the fuzzy video.)

 

qmOfdkzXUsI

 

Please elaborate...

 

h

[ralis]

Please elaborate...

 

h

 

 

 

ralis

[Taomeow]

Please elaborate...

 

h

What Trunk means is to illustrate, with a funny extreme case, the common condition of the human spirit. The Greater Shen is comprised of five Lesser Shens -- Hun, Po, Zhi, Yi, and Heart Shen. In a balanced individual, these are aware of each other and communicate harmoniously. That's "spiritual harmony." In most people, however, they don't communicate all that well, so you wind up having parts of you wanting things that other parts want no part of. In the posted example, husband and wife both have their Hun trying hard to repress their Po. The moment Po is aroused on cue, however, it momentarily suppresses Hun, overpowers and overthrows it. This is a typical situation for people whose Zhi is weak so that neither Hun nor Po can follow its orders because they don't hear them. The result is a disturbed Heart Shen and a confused Yi that doesn't know what anyone (any one) of the Shens really wants and what the Greater Shen, the spirit of the whole person, should do moment to moment. So that's what the Shen connection of the video is.

[Trunk]

.. with a funny extreme case, the common condition of the human spirit. The Greater Shen is comprised of five Lesser Shens -- Hun, Po, Zhi, Yi, and Heart Shen. In a balanced individual, ... In most people, however, ... The result is ...

* bows to Taomeow *

[Smile]

Replace with this code for better video: YEVPqpazbEs

[hagar]

Thanks TaoMeow!

 

Food for thought.

 

I can experentially connect with the lesser and greater Hun and Po conflict/dialogue, yet if I start from scratch (i.e directly into how this is percieved) there is a sense of a conceptual layer being added here. How does this work? Why is it so?

 

From my own practice what here is explained as the different "agendas" of plural Shens may just as well be beliefs, unconscious or explicit, or just pure post-natal conditioning that hinders clear reflection or "Wu".

 

If I take my own experience seriously, Shen is space, light and information. It is empty space, and is not dynamic but static, pure being. How can it have conflicting interests or be of a lesser of greater nature?

 

This is not a rejection, just a questioning, as I find Trunks Shen theory very interesting indeed.

 

h

[Taomeow]

* bows to Taomeow *

Bows back to Trunk.

Thanks TaoMeow!

 

Food for thought.

 

I can experentially connect with the lesser and greater Hun and Po conflict/dialogue, yet if I start from scratch (i.e directly into how this is percieved) there is a sense of a conceptual layer being added here. How does this work? Why is it so?

How does this work? Via a process that can be defined in three words summing up a "civilized" human being: fragmentation of consciousness.

 

Why is it so? Because being a "civilized" human being is traumatic. Trauma is separation of parts that shouldn't be separated. You cut your finger, that's a trauma of separation, of a bunch of tissues that should be together into parts that are not. They cut your umbilical cord the moment you are born (only done by "civilized" people, mind you), they separate you from what you've come to know as "the whole world," your mother -- abruptly, long before you are ready -- so that's something that fragments your consciousness into "me" and "the world" right from the start. You are disconnected. We all are. (People who are not civilized never disconnect like that -- the umbilical cord dries up and falls off by itself in some seven days, plenty of time to establish new connections to the world, but first and foremost to your own circulatory system. If it is abruptly turned on without having established the connections that require those seven days, you are disconnected from your own blood -- for the rest of your life. We all are.)

 

Then the world proceeds to disconnect you from itself by all means at its disposal. They jab you with a syringe while behaving as though they aren't attacking you, as though they are doing something good for you, so you disconnect from your ability to tell pain from pleasure. They put you on schedule feeding so you disconnect from your ability to understand your own hunger. They actually don't do anything other than things that disconnect you from your own senses, emotions, truths -- until you are confused into forever seeking what you should naturally avoid and avoiding what you should naturally seek.

 

You're lucky if you understand that that's what's happened to you thirty or forty years down the road, and take matters into your own hands in search of reconnection. Most people never do. They just fragment further and further. First consciousness itself, then the shens, then organs of the body, then cellular metabolism, the mind, relationships, everything... till they face the sum total of a life lived the civilized way -- a pile of meaningless fragments of what might have been a whole human being. (I know what you're thinking by now! -- morbid TM going into Weltschmertz over a soft-porn video! )

 

From my own practice what here is explained as the different "agendas" of plural Shens may just as well be beliefs, unconscious or explicit, or just pure post-natal conditioning that hinders clear reflection or "Wu".

Exactly. Postnatal conditioning... even prenatal, by the way. If you get a pregnant lab rat addicted to something -- say, sugar -- little lab ratties are born already addicted to that too. A human mom addicted to crack cocaine... same deal. A human mom addicted to misery... likewise. Conditioned to be fragmented... that's inheritable too.

 

If I take my own experience seriously, Shen is space, light and information. It is empty space, and is not dynamic but static, pure being. How can it have conflicting interests or be of a lesser of greater nature?

 

This is not a rejection, just a questioning, as I find Trunks Shen theory very interesting indeed.

 

Well, "lesser" and "greater" are not value-based qualifiers, they are more like fractal dimensions of the overall shen -- the "greater" of the whole resonating into the "lesser" of the separate organ-system-function shens via ganying. "Lesser" shens are "like the greater" but at the same time "like themselves," not the same as each other nor quite the same as the whole, the way all things fractal are. So Hun and Po are not supposed to be in conflict anymore than your hands and your feet are supposed to be in conflict, even though they have different tasks, do different things, often opposite things, and look different... yet they are ultimately the same and not, you and not not-you and yet not the-whole-of-you... and so on. However, in a society that would condition you to believe, e.g., that it's OK to have hands but it's shameful to have feet, or that it's OK to have a mind but it's not OK to have a body, or that it's OK to have a body but it's not OK to have genitals... and so on...

 

Maktub.

[hagar]

Bows back to Trunk.

 

How does this work? Via a process that can be defined in three words summing up a "civilized" human being: fragmentation of consciousness.

 

Why is it so? Because being a "civilized" human being is traumatic. Trauma is separation of parts that shouldn't be separated. You cut your finger, that's a trauma of separation, of a bunch of tissues that should be together into parts that are not. They cut your umbilical cord the moment you are born (only done by "civilized" people, mind you), they separate you from what you've come to know as "the whole world," your mother -- abruptly, long before you are ready -- so that's something that fragments your consciousness into "me" and "the world" right from the start. You are disconnected. We all are. (People who are not civilized never disconnect like that -- the umbilical cord dries up and falls off by itself in some seven days, plenty of time to establish new connections to the world, but first and foremost to your own circulatory system. If it is abruptly turned on without having established the connections that require those seven days, you are disconnected from your own blood -- for the rest of your life. We all are.)

 

Then the world proceeds to disconnect you from itself by all means at its disposal. They jab you with a syringe while behaving as though they aren't attacking you, as though they are doing something good for you, so you disconnect from your ability to tell pain from pleasure. They put you on schedule feeding so you disconnect from your ability to understand your own hunger. They actually don't do anything other than things that disconnect you from your own senses, emotions, truths -- until you are confused into forever seeking what you should naturally avoid and avoiding what you should naturally seek.

 

You're lucky if you understand that that's what's happened to you thirty or forty years down the road, and take matters into your own hands in search of reconnection. Most people never do. They just fragment further and further. First consciousness itself, then the shens, then organs of the body, then cellular metabolism, the mind, relationships, everything... till they face the sum total of a life lived the civilized way -- a pile of meaningless fragments of what might have been a whole human being. (I know what you're thinking by now! -- morbid TM going into Weltschmertz over a soft-porn video! )

Exactly. Postnatal conditioning... even prenatal, by the way. If you get a pregnant lab rat addicted to something -- say, sugar -- little lab ratties are born already addicted to that too. A human mom addicted to crack cocaine... same deal. A human mom addicted to misery... likewise. Conditioned to be fragmented... that's inheritable too.

 

Well, "lesser" and "greater" are not value-based qualifiers, they are more like fractal dimensions of the overall shen -- the "greater" of the whole resonating into the "lesser" of the separate organ-system-function shens via ganying. "Lesser" shens are "like the greater" but at the same time "like themselves," not the same as each other nor quite the same as the whole, the way all things fractal are. So Hun and Po are not supposed to be in conflict anymore than your hands and your feet are supposed to be in conflict, even though they have different tasks, do different things, often opposite things, and look different... yet they are ultimately the same and not, you and not not-you and yet not the-whole-of-you... and so on. However, in a society that would condition you to believe, e.g., that it's OK to have hands but it's shameful to have feet, or that it's OK to have a mind but it's not OK to have a body, or that it's OK to have a body but it's not OK to have genitals... and so on...

 

Maktub.

 

Wow. Great post TaoMeow

 

From what you wrote, I could probalby distill my entire MA thesis on Walter Benjamin. The name of the thesis was "The Shattering of tradition". It exposes the underlying theory, partly derived from Kabbalistic thought, that the project of Modernity was in its essense one of shattering, and shock, or trauma. A real dis-embodying of the human sensorioum. Benjamins project related to describing this trauma or shock, and how to mend the pieces into a new mosaic. Its main focus was related to his theory of technology.

 

As to your remaining explanation, I need to meditate on it further, but its definately relevant. I've been especially aware of these aspects after I became a father and seen how my son came into the world, and how agendas and ideas about right and wrong is thrown on you from the moment of birth. Long story.

 

Thanks

[joeblast]

I wish I watched that vid before reading twomeow's post. It was like seeing the test and the answers, then going back and looking at the test

[Trunk]

Taomeow,

 

A few ?'s, ..

The Greater Shen is comprised of five Lesser Shens -- Hun, Po, Zhi, Yi, and Heart Shen.

Would you give a brief definition of each of the five Lesser Shens? Are they each associated with an organ? .. if not, where do they reside?

 

Where did you get such good understanding of the Taoist framework for this topic? Reading reference? Teacher?

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I've never heard anyone talk so clearly about this using the Taoist model.

 

Hagar,

From my own practice what here is explained as the different "agendas" of plural Shens may just as well be beliefs, unconscious or explicit, or just pure post-natal conditioning that hinders clear reflection or "Wu".

In my own current understanding I look at "lesser shens" as related to the major nerve plexuses and associated energetic centers (chakras). Each chakra inherently has a different aesthetic. For instance, the upper center/s like open space and light. Lower center/s like power, rooted acheivement, sensuality. They inherently have different aesthetics.

 

In addition to Taomeow's explanation of "how fragmentation?" and the traumas of life, I would add that there are physical separations. Diaphragms, for example. And traumas get stored in the tissues and the tissues bind up and so less vertical integration.

 

Also, the shens don't speak the same language, or at least not at the same tempo and vibration. The lower centers tend to just silently act, and don't have a lot of easily noticable conceptualization ..., while the upper center is just yappin' all the time. They live at different vibrations, makes going out of communication common.

 

If I take my own experience seriously, Shen is space, light and information. It is empty space, and is not dynamic but static, pure being. How can it have conflicting interests or be of a lesser of greater nature?

You're mixing up different uses of the word "Shen", pure vast spirit vs. individualized consciousnesses. We're talking mostly about the latter, but also each of the individualized needs to find it's connection with the Greater.

 

Trunk

 

p.s.

Smile, thanks for the clearer vid.

 

p.p.s.

Another way to look at "shens" is via the different parts of the brain. I'm not so sure that the frontal lobes (abstract thought) talk to the brain stem (primal stuff) a whole lot.

[rain]

[xenolith]

You're lucky if you understand that that's what's happened to you thirty or forty years down the road, and take matters into your own hands in search of reconnection.

The very lucky are subjected to abhorent activities by those who should be trusted in their formative years...and have the strength to be not destroyed by it...they understand, neccessarily, that which you describe early in Life...(at least) thirty or forty years ahead are they towards taking matters into their own hands...

 

Yes, very lucky indeed.

[hagar]

 

 

You're mixing up different uses of the word "Shen", pure vast spirit vs. individualized consciousnesses. We're talking mostly about the latter, but also each of the individualized needs to find it's connection with the Greater.

 

Trunk

 

 

Again thank you for that clarification.

 

My knowledge in these topics are lacking, as you point out, and it seem that what I have been taught does not really relate to this paradigm directly.

 

Since Trunk obviously has a knowledge that far surpasses me on these issues, I just would like to respecfully add some slight "critique":

 

As a theory and a matrix of concepts it brings a wellspring of knowledge to the assorted issues related to how our conditioned energies, emotions and unconscious thought patterns have a life of their own. Like our friend Nietzsche said "I am many". And as a conceptual tool to bring these under an explanatory unmbrella they look great. As I do have some knowledge of the Hun and Po Soul theory, they really do have some hold in real life. Especially if things are greatly out of order, lingering trauma, psychological issues, and underlying energetic patterns that keep recurring nomatter how healthy you live otherwise, just to name a few.

 

The issue of integrating or harmonising the different Shens are valid and important. My teacher one time told me about a patient he was healing with a shoulder problem. He could not get the grips of what had happened, and started to ask the patient about his shoulder pains. Finally, he told him that he was in a car accident, and hit a deer.The image that kept popping up in my teachers mind was horns. And then he felt that some of the deer's spirit was angry and trapped within the patients shoulder, or atleast left a trace of the trauma in his shoulder, as the deer was hit on the front leg and torso. So that is as close to a singular "shen" explanation I have ever come.

 

On another level, how does this theory of Shens really say anything essential about what we are? Are we the sum of the conglomerate of Hun and Pos, the totality of our DanTians, or a mosaic of energetic patterns with their agendas, and the will or "Yi" has the job of letting them all have their democratic place?

How does this explain my essential nature? Or is it an irrelelvant question?

 

I would be so bold though, to be a bit of a devil's advocate and ask how; how does this really work in reality, how do we percieve these Shen's experientially? Do we really know that it is so?

 

In essence, what is felt through practice is some sort of infusion of spirit on a fundamentally physical level, but not on the level of matter. More on the point or brink or pivotal point between matter and space. Where we begin in a way. There we are like little shining jewels. This is as deeply ingrained the spirit is in all flesh.

On the "macro" level, there is also the issue of fundamental empty space that we are. And in that sense, what use is there to talk of cleansing "karma" or issues, or transforming the body, energy or purify anything. What are we purifying? Find that out first. We cannot purify what we allready are.

 

It feels like what I do when I sit is a kind of prayer, but also a kind of calling, as in calling the Shen back to the body.

 

But this may be highly irrelevant, and the Shen theory probably stands fine by itself, with or without the larger picture.

 

I am probably blabbering on something totally irrelevant now. Apologies.

 

h

Edited November 28, 2009 by hagar

[Taomeow]

[Trunk]

Since Trunk obviously has a knowledge that far surpasses me on these issues, I just would like to respecfully add some slight "critique":

...

On another level, how does this theory ?, ...?, ...?, ...?

I feel that I'm very much "on the edge" of this topic: I feel that this is an important topic, and I can see~experience some issues of mine along this line... but I don't feel that I have a good map of the territory, and I certainly don't have a handle on reliable methodology. And I know that Gurdieff's writings (more specifically, Ouespensky's) goes into this area... but for me personally, my knowledge is sketchy. Only this hunch feeling that this is important territory. I'm keen towards Taomeow's and Rain's contributions and think that they perhaps also have a background wealth of related personal experience. ... Or anyone else?, I'm curious of any process whereby someone has gained actual traction in this area. I know in the past some people have had experiences via Winn's presentation, but somehow I never connected to that.

[Taomeow]

Taomeow,

 

A few ?'s, ..

Would you give a brief definition of each of the five Lesser Shens? Are they each associated with an organ? .. if not, where do they reside?

 

OK, here goes.

 

The lesser shens are primarily responsible for particular "virtues." The major difference between traditional taoist and our current (as well as historic) understanding of "virtue" is that in the taoist system, having particular human "virtues" exhibited in one's natural spontaneous behavior is basically a sign of health, of realization of one's human potential. Whereas an absence or a distortion (developmental aberration) of certain "virtues" is viewed as an unhealthy condition, both the cause and the outcome of an assortment of disharmonies in one's overall "arrangement." These can be physical, mental, emotional, or all of the above. So a shen that is faltering might start out as an organic liver impairment yet manifest as a deficiency of purely psychological human qualities -- e.g., kindness. By the same token, an absence, due to, e.g., peculiarities of upbringing and conditioning, of a natural inclination toward kindness can, and will, cause organic liver damage down the road. So the shens that govern these "virtues" are neither "all spirit' nor "all matter," they are both and neither like all of taoist reality and unlike all of Christian, Buddhist, or contemporary-scientific reality.

 

So -- definitions (or rather, descriptions) and organ-system-function associations:

1. Yi -- sometimes translated as thought or consciousness, I like Ted Kaptchuk's translation -- "consciousness of potentials." It is the spirit of considering and deciding upon what is likely, what is real, what is possible. Has much to do with motivation and creativity. Has something to do with intent based on a deep understanding of the needs of situations and people rather than on some willful "I want." The Virtues of Yi are loyalty, sincerity (xin), and facilitating new manifestations to come into being. Yi helps one understand oneself and others. It is introspective but its inner work results in action in the outside world.

 

An ailing or deformed Yi may manifest as sticky, stifling loyalty, fanatical beliefs, excessive sentimentality, anxiety, and disproportionate generosity and self-sacrifice at some point, but once this point is passed (burnout) it will manifest as indifference, boredom, lack of interest and motivation. I don't remember its organ association but I will recall it as I go. Please stay tuned.

[longrhythm]

Sure sounds like spleen to me and fits right in with what Rain was saying.

 

OK, here goes.

 

The lesser shens are primarily responsible for particular "virtues." The major difference between traditional taoist and our current (as well as historic) understanding of "virtue" is that in the taoist system, having particular human "virtues" exhibited in one's natural spontaneous behavior is basically a sign of health, of realization of one's human potential. Whereas an absence or a distortion (developmental aberration) of certain "virtues" is viewed as an unhealthy condition, both the cause and the outcome of an assortment of disharmonies in one's overall "arrangement." These can be physical, mental, emotional, or all of the above. So a shen that is faltering might start out as an organic liver impairment yet manifest as a deficiency of purely psychological human qualities -- e.g., kindness. By the same token, an absence, due to, e.g., peculiarities of upbringing and conditioning, of a natural inclination toward kindness can, and will, cause organic liver damage down the road. So the shens that govern these "virtues" are neither "all spirit' nor "all matter," they are both and neither like all of taoist reality and unlike all of Christian, Buddhist, or contemporary-scientific reality.

 

So -- definitions (or rather, descriptions) and organ-system-function associations:

1. Yi -- sometimes translated as thought or consciousness, I like Ted Kaptchuk's translation -- "consciousness of potentials." It is the spirit of considering and deciding upon what is likely, what is real, what is possible. Has much to do with motivation and creativity. Has something to do with intent based on a deep understanding of the needs of situations and people rather than on some willful "I want." The Virtues of Yi are loyalty, sincerity (xin), and facilitating new manifestations to come into being. Yi helps one understand oneself and others. It is introspective but its inner work results in action in the outside world.

 

An ailing or deformed Yi may manifest as sticky, stifling loyalty, fanatical beliefs, excessive sentimentality, anxiety, and disproportionate generosity and self-sacrifice at some point, but once this point is passed (burnout) it will manifest as indifference, boredom, lack of interest and motivation. I don't remember its organ association but I will recall it as I go. Please stay tuned.

[doc benway]

Dear Taomeow,

I wonder if you'd be so kind as to continue sharing your knowledge of shen with us.

Lately, I've been exploring it quite a bit but solely from an empiric perspective. I'd love to hear more about the lesser shens and their relationship to the greater shen from your point of view, and maybe ask some questions.

Thanks

 

OK, here goes.

 

The lesser shens are primarily responsible for particular "virtues." The major difference between traditional taoist and our current (as well as historic) understanding of "virtue" is that in the taoist system, having particular human "virtues" exhibited in one's natural spontaneous behavior is basically a sign of health, of realization of one's human potential. Whereas an absence or a distortion (developmental aberration) of certain "virtues" is viewed as an unhealthy condition, both the cause and the outcome of an assortment of disharmonies in one's overall "arrangement." These can be physical, mental, emotional, or all of the above. So a shen that is faltering might start out as an organic liver impairment yet manifest as a deficiency of purely psychological human qualities -- e.g., kindness. By the same token, an absence, due to, e.g., peculiarities of upbringing and conditioning, of a natural inclination toward kindness can, and will, cause organic liver damage down the road. So the shens that govern these "virtues" are neither "all spirit' nor "all matter," they are both and neither like all of taoist reality and unlike all of Christian, Buddhist, or contemporary-scientific reality.

 

So -- definitions (or rather, descriptions) and organ-system-function associations:

1. Yi -- sometimes translated as thought or consciousness, I like Ted Kaptchuk's translation -- "consciousness of potentials." It is the spirit of considering and deciding upon what is likely, what is real, what is possible. Has much to do with motivation and creativity. Has something to do with intent based on a deep understanding of the needs of situations and people rather than on some willful "I want." The Virtues of Yi are loyalty, sincerity (xin), and facilitating new manifestations to come into being. Yi helps one understand oneself and others. It is introspective but its inner work results in action in the outside world.

 

An ailing or deformed Yi may manifest as sticky, stifling loyalty, fanatical beliefs, excessive sentimentality, anxiety, and disproportionate generosity and self-sacrifice at some point, but once this point is passed (burnout) it will manifest as indifference, boredom, lack of interest and motivation. I don't remember its organ association but I will recall it as I go. Please stay tuned.

[Taomeow]

Dear Taomeow,

I wonder if you'd be so kind as to continue sharing your knowledge of shen with us.

Lately, I've been exploring it quite a bit but solely from an empiric perspective. I'd love to hear more about the lesser shens and their relationship to the greater shen from your point of view, and maybe ask some questions.

Thanks

 

 

Dear Steve,

thanks for trusting my humble.

 

Sure... please stay tuned (gotta be elsewhere for the moment).

[doc benway]

Dear Steve,

thanks for trusting my humble.

 

Sure... please stay tuned (gotta be elsewhere for the moment).

Thank you

Will do

(I wish there was a popcorn eating smiley)

[Desert Eagle]

2nd edit for new "media" command.

 

ok it is funny!

Edited June 6, 2011 by Desert Eagle