Heart Rhythm meditation?

[Non]

http://www.appliedmeditation.org/Heart_Rhythm_Practice.shtml

 

A woman let me know of this meditation and I'm going to make the effort and learn about it and try it out.

 

I do have a problem though. A lot of methods to acheive happiness or manifest your dreams talk about something akin to having good morals and to 'love'. as if that is all what was needed and its the 'magical' pill and all your dreams will come true.

 

I have a problem with this though... as love requires cooperation. perhaps I dont have the capacity to love.. but I do know that all my life I've had huge problems with society and being social. I sincerely want to be social, but I feel left out in every case. I feel like I do my part but people are just unwilling to help me out. One can love as much as he she can but will it ever be reciprocated? Its not guaranteed. The human has to pretty much rewire itself to give without expecting anything in return and to even be happy if that is all you did your whole life but got nothing in return. I dont think its even very possible for a human to be so because the only reason why a person would give is the knowing that they will get something in return. Life is based on the exchange of energy and the less energy u have the less you have to give. Gathering energy is taking. I guess... I just feel unreciprocated to the point where it limits my giving to an extreme amount. And I am demonized for being so.

 

I believe giving anything isnot the magic pill. its giving the right thing that will guarantee the other person benefits. If you have nothing to give yourself or others, that they will like, then it doesn't matter.

 

So a person can just sit and tell me that all you have to do is love, and give to others,and have good morals be courageous etc. but that ALL depends on cooperation, interconnedness and share distributibility. internal and external. Now I told you I've had the biggest problem with being social, not that I dont want to be social but that I'm a reject of society. Furthermore my connection with all has also very much hindered from what I believe to be unrequited love and others being unreciprocal.

 

Or I am just very unable to be connected...just unable. Its sad to see people getting theirs so easily by giving when others who give get nothing in return, to the point where it just wastes their energy, until the have no more to give.. and the only reason to get more would be to take... because they have nothing to give.

 

Loving oneself is also not always a magic pill. Sure it makes things easier. Love is no always magic pill either, it must be done in the right way.

 

So if one has problems of any sort they are also demonized and debased as being immoral and/or fear based. Anyone.

 

Yet... lets look at what I think are the 6 powers according to the heart rhythm practice that enables 'manifestation'.

 

Compassion

Courage

Creativity Cooperation

Compelling vision

Confidence

 

Al of them require cooperation. All of cooperation requires confidence, each of them depend on each other. But cooperation is my biggest setback. I've been alone all my life, I have problems in being social all my life.

 

1. Compassion: kinda hard to be compassionate, even though I do try.

2. Kinda hard being courageous, even though I do try.

3. Creativity, kinda hard to be creative but I do try.

4. Cooperation, kinda hard to be cooperative but I do try

5. Compelling vision, kinda hard to have compelling vision but I do try.

6. Confidence: kinda hard to have confidence but I do try.

 

None of them together worked for me even if I did do my best. it all depends on others, and others don't care. It would be much easier if I could have internal cooperation as well..but at this point it's become "hard". I dont find much external cooperation and because of that, its hard to have internal cooperation.. and because of that it makes external cooperation harder and the cycle just repeats itself.... but one cannot be without the other.

 

All is done in vain.

 

Would anyone truly be happy and healthy living in complete isolation (provided of course he hasn't the ability to put up with isolation through spiritual practices or whatnot)? Even if they did learn practices to overcome isolation it still might not be enough.

Edited November 26, 2009 by Non

[sheng zhen]

but I do know that all my life I've had huge problems with society and being social.

With Heart Rate Variability(HRV) kind of breathing, or Respiratory Sinus Arrythmia(RSA) which its really called, you actually strengthen the tonus of the vagus nerve. Now this is magic!

 

If you look a little into the research done by Stephen W. Porges - Polvagal Theory - you will learn that by strengthening the vagus nerve you will actually be "Socially Engaged". Your ability to connect with people increases.

 

Heart Rate Variability seems to be the main scientific explanation of the Heart Rhythm Meditation that you linked to. But the article say nothing about how you actually do this. I dont know how they monitor the heartrate at Heart Rhythm Meditation, but I know for sure that just regular breathing meditation does not give a strengthened HRV. You need biofeedback: The StessEraser.

[Non]

With Heart Rate Variability(HRV) kind of breathing, or Respiratory Sinus Arrythmia(RSA) which its really called, you actually strengthen the tonus of the vagus nerve. Now this is magic!

 

If you look a little into the research done by Stephen W. Porges - Polvagal Theory - you will learn that by strengthening the vagus nerve you will actually be "Socially Engaged". Your ability to connect with people increases.

 

Heart Rate Variability seems to be the main scientific explanation of the Heart Rhythm Meditation that you linked to. But the article say nothing about how you actually do this. I dont know how they monitor the heartrate at Heart Rhythm Meditation, but I know for sure that just regular breathing meditation does not give a strengthened HRV. You need biofeedback: The StessEraser.

 

That's some good info. I've heard about HRV through heartmath.org but never really read much into it because never had much time and couldn't understand it from the get-go. But I think it kinda does depend on biofeedback.

 

I thought it would be simple "heart awareness" during meditation.

 

I haven't read the heart rhythm meditation website... I've been looking for the method without having to buy the book, but I think I wouldn't be able to find it. Maybe I'll ask the woman how she heard of this meditation in the first place and more info about it.

[Seth Ananda]

They use a variety of meditations where you count your pulse and breath with it (like breath in for 8 beats, out for 8 beats). the book 'Energize your heart' has quite a few ecg graphs before and during the meditation showing the Increase in HRV.

 

I quite like some of their meditations

[markern]

With Heart Rate Variability(HRV) kind of breathing, or Respiratory Sinus Arrythmia(RSA) which its really called, you actually strengthen the tonus of the vagus nerve. Now this is magic!

 

If you look a little into the research done by Stephen W. Porges - Polvagal Theory - you will learn that by strengthening the vagus nerve you will actually be "Socially Engaged". Your ability to connect with people increases.

 

Heart Rate Variability seems to be the main scientific explanation of the Heart Rhythm Meditation that you linked to. But the article say nothing about how you actually do this. I dont know how they monitor the heartrate at Heart Rhythm Meditation, but I know for sure that just regular breathing meditation does not give a strengthened HRV. You need biofeedback: The StessEraser.

 

This seems like more or less the same thing as what will happen with cranio sacral therapy that follows the scoial engagement protocol. In which case I will strongly recomend again that you try that treatment NON. Anyway it is very good and will help you quite a bit for sure.

 

 

They use a variety of meditations where you count your pulse and breath with it (like breath in for 8 beats, out for 8 beats). the book 'Energize your heart' has quite a few ecg graphs before and during the meditation showing the Increase in HRV.

 

I quite like some of their meditations

 

 

I have sometimes thought that since the pulse acording to eastern thought reflects your state of health perfectly through various patterns not known about in western science it would be possible to create an incredibly powerfull biofeedback meditation that iams for getting your pulse pattern to get in line with what should reflect perfect pulse acording to TCM and thus probably changing what is happening in the body acordingly. If you are to do this yourself you could learn somehow how to feel all the different qualities an eastern doctor listens for and then try to softly change it but that would be very hard and only for advanced practioners. With some sort of biofeedback and getting everything shown on a monitor or something it could possibly be done by a beginner.

[sheng zhen]

They use a variety of meditations where you count your pulse and breath with it (like breath in for 8 beats, out for 8 beats). the book 'Energize your heart' has quite a few ecg graphs before and during the meditation showing the Increase in HRV.

 

I quite like some of their meditations

aha, thanks.

 

edit: Ive looked more through their website and I think I like them too!

Edited November 27, 2009 by sheng zhen

[sheng zhen]

This seems like more or less the same thing as what will happen with cranio sacral therapy that follows the scoial engagement protocol. In which case I will strongly recomend again that you try that treatment NON. Anyway it is very good and will help you quite a bit for sure.

Yes, the Cranio-Sacral Social Engagement Protocol is developed in cooperation with Stephen W. Porges. Definately a treatment to consider! I have seen many people be completely transformed by it. I have not yet done it myself, but will do pretty soon.

 

I have sometimes thought that since the pulse acording to eastern thought reflects your state of health perfectly through various patterns not known about in western science it would be possible to create an incredibly powerfull biofeedback meditation that iams for getting your pulse pattern to get in line with what should reflect perfect pulse acording to TCM and thus probably changing what is happening in the body acordingly. If you are to do this yourself you could learn somehow how to feel all the different qualities an eastern doctor listens for and then try to softly change it but that would be very hard and only for advanced practioners. With some sort of biofeedback and getting everything shown on a monitor or something it could possibly be done by a beginner.

I dont know how TCM do their pulse diagnostic, but if the pulse has a high HRV and stability the TCM doctors would definately not find many problems. Not beacuse it is not detectable, but because the body has a stronger ability to heal itself, and therefore is more healthy.

 

When you strengthen the vagusnerve you also strengthen the bodys ability to heal itself. The parasympathetic activity is what activates restitution and healing. So with a high HRV the body will be healed and healthy.

 

It would be fun to see how a TCM doctor feels the differnece in pulsdiagnostic on someone that does HRV breathing... I definately going to ask some of my TCM friends to check this out!

[C T]

Here are some pulse-racing 'Heartbeat' statistics:

 

If the average pulse rate is 75 beats per minute, the heart would have beaten 108,000 times in 24 hours.

(I wonder if its a coincidence that the number *108* is so frequently used in Buddhism?!!)

 

That means the heart would beat on average 39,420,000 times a year!

Over a span of 75 years, the heart would have beaten 2,956,500,000 times!! (Give or take a few thousand).

 

Quite a miracle!

 

Most trad Mahayana practices only require the student to chant certain mantras 500,000 times and do a similar number of prostrations to begin to see the effects of purification. This must look so puny compared to Heart Rhythm meditation.. I am wondering now if the whole foundation of Tibetan Buddhism need a number re-think?

[sheng zhen]

They use a variety of meditations where you count your pulse and breath with it (like breath in for 8 beats, out for 8 beats). the book 'Energize your heart' has quite a few ecg graphs before and during the meditation showing the Increase in HRV.

 

I quite like some of their meditations

I tried counting heartbeats with breathing compared to biofeedback. Counting heartbeats seems to be a little better for HRV than just breathing, but it still cant compare to the effect of biofeedback. With biofeedback I get a stable HRV within few minutes. But with counting heartbeats I just got a little more stable HRV than regular breathing meditation.

 

The HRV machines(ECG with special software) used for research in medicine is something else than the biofeedback devices. For example, with the research HRVs they have seen a higher degree of HRV with something as simple as eating omega-3. This is not the perfect HRV you train with biofeedback. It is just a little higher HRV than usual. Its the same with meditation. They find higher HRV with people who do meditation. Or with athletes. Its still far from the perfect HRV you train with biofeedback.

 

I might be doing something very wrong when I compare a method I really don't know to something I do know, but I still believe it indicates the difference.

[gendao]

Yes, the Cranio-Sacral Social Engagement Protocol is developed in cooperation with Stephen W. Porges. Definately a treatment to consider! I have seen many people be completely transformed by it. I have not yet done it myself, but will do pretty soon.

I dont know how TCM do their pulse diagnostic, but if the pulse has a high HRV and stability the TCM doctors would definately not find many problems. Not beacuse it is not detectable, but because the body has a stronger ability to heal itself, and therefore is more healthy.

 

When you strengthen the vagusnerve you also strengthen the bodys ability to heal itself. The parasympathetic activity is what activates restitution and healing. So with a high HRV the body will be healed and healthy.

 

It would be fun to see how a TCM doctor feels the differnece in pulsdiagnostic on someone that does HRV breathing... I definately going to ask some of my TCM friends to check this out!

When you say high HRV - do you mean high amplitude, or high degree of variability? The latter of which would seem to be the opposite of "stable?"

 

Anyhow, I've been able to feel my heartbeat, and lately sometimes my pulse down my arms to my hands and today, my thighs. I think it's a good markpost you pass as you go in deeper. But I go from there into watching who's watching my pulse, though (or at least try to).

 

Also, while the theory sounds good...I'm curious as to what level the "top masters" have actually achieved with it? Anyone can spout some great-sounding theory, but the proof is always in the pudding.

[sheng zhen]

When you say high HRV - do you mean high amplitude, or high degree of variability? The latter of which would seem to be the opposite of "stable?"

 

Anyhow, I've been able to feel my heartbeat, and lately sometimes my pulse down my arms to my hands and today, my thighs. I think it's a good markpost you pass as you go in deeper. But I go from there into watching who's watching my pulse, though (or at least try to).

 

Also, while the theory sounds good...I'm curious as to what level the "top masters" have actually achieved with it? Anyone can spout some great-sounding theory, but the proof is always in the pudding.

With "high HRV" I mean both high amplitude and high variability. It means that the heartrate follows the breath and is not interrupted by stressfactors that make the sympathetic nervoussystem fire off unnecessarily and disrupt the work of the parasympathetic activity. HRV show the condition of these systems, and "high HRV" show a balance between those two systems. I'm not too good in english so its all a little "so-so" when I write here...

 

With "stability" I mean that the HRV is a sine wave. Not a chaotic and broken wave.

 

And yes, the proof is in the pudding! With a biofeedback device you see objectively if the pudding really contains proof... I have met people who meditate everyday and consider themselves very relaxed people, but who really have a very low HRV(an almost straight line/wave on the StressEraser). Most people are like this. Not necessarily a straight wave, but at least a very chaotic wave. They need practice and training to strengthen their nervous system so it can deal with everyday life without accumulating stress. But I met one woman who had the perfect HRV, best Ive ever seen, and she still had a lot of troubles and pain. So high HRV is not a proof of the perfect human condition. Its just an indication. I don't know why this woman had the perfect HRV. But I suspect her use of Holosync every day for many years has something to do with it, and the fact that she has received many treatments for her condition.

[freeform]

My HRV is perfect when I'm mildly hung over

 

I remember Ian saying he finds it easier to meditate the morning after a drink too...

[Aetherous]

Freeform,

 

How interesting!

 

I've found that running is a lot easier, and I'm also able to write better songs on the guitar, when hungover.

 

[freeform]

Freeform,

 

How interesting!

 

I've found that running is a lot easier, and I'm also able to write better songs on the guitar, when hungover.

 

 

 

Hangovers - the spiritual tonic... interesting isn't it.

 

I'd like to know why...

 

Qualitatively I feel my mind 'foggy' which makes it harder to focus, and makes it easier to have a diffuse, ungrasping awareness...

 

Interestingly, during the hangover, when I was doing my HRV breathing using the little device that comes with the Wild Divine game - my HRV was perfect for the whole 60 minutes I did it for, but the skin conductance (or whatever it's called) was twice as high as usual - and that's an indicator of stress...

 

I also discovered that there's a certain 4:4 rhythm that helps the HRV score... you breathe in counting to 4, but you do the in breath in 4 segments - like there are four distinct levels of depth to the breath, and on each count you go one level deeper... and over time you smooth it out so the steps flow from one to the other... (and the same on the out breath) - this, very quickly improves the HRV synchrony for me.

 

Anyone else been playing around with HRV devices? (StressEraser, Wild Divine etc) - any tips/discoveries/curiosities?

 

Edited November 29, 2009 by freeform

[sheng zhen]

Interestingly, during the hangover, when I was doing my HRV breathing using the little device that comes with the Wild Divine game - my HRV was perfect for the whole 60 minutes I did it for, but the skin conductance (or whatever it's called) was twice as high as usual - and that's an indicator of stress...

Thats really interesting! I noticed my HRV was perfect after eating at McDonalds once... I thought there must be something wrong with that... I would not want to see McDonalds market their food as "good for the heart and stressmanagment" And after eating eggs, my HRV goes completely crazy. Dont know why... must be some elements that influences the nervous system in some way or another. Or maybe its just the effect of emotions?

 

I did compare the skin conductance with HRV one time, and I noticed my SC didn't drop until maybe 5 min with HRV breathing, even though my HRV was fine all the time. It puts things into perspective.

 

I also discovered that there's a certain 4:4 rhythm that helps the HRV score... you breathe in counting to 4, but you do the in breath in 4 segments - like there are four distinct levels of depth to the breath, and on each count you go one level deeper... and over time you smooth it out so the steps flow from one to the other... (and the same on the out breath) - this, very quickly improves the HRV synchrony for me.

 

Anyone else been playing around with HRV devices? (StressEraser, Wild Divine etc) - any tips/discoveries/curiosities?

I have noticed that half way through my in-breath I often get a flat line before it rises again. Mostly its not enough for my StressEraser to start a new count in the breathwave, but its still consistent enough to acknowledge there is something there. Could you please say more about how you deal with the levels of each count? I would like to try to smooth this out

 

I always start with 4:4 rhythm and then increase gradually up to 5:5 or 6:6.

 

Other thing Ive noticed is that circular breathing(Longevity breathing?? - without pause at the bottom or top of the breathing) works best with the StressEraser. Also when I get heat in my belly its much easier to keep a stable HRV.

[freeform]

Thats really interesting! I noticed my HRV was perfect after eating at McDonalds once... I thought there must be something wrong with that... I would not want to see McDonalds market their food as "good for the heart and stressmanagment" And after eating eggs, my HRV goes completely crazy. Dont know why... must be some elements that influences the nervous system in some way or another. Or maybe its just the effect of emotions?

 

Cool. Something interesting to look out for. Did you particularly enjoy the McD's??

 

I'll see how diet affects HRV too.

 

It's great to have such direct feedback and be able to compare notes like this.

 

I have noticed that half way through my in-breath I often get a flat line before it rises again. Mostly its not enough for my StressEraser to start a new count in the breathwave, but its still consistent enough to acknowledge there is something there.

 

Yup I get exactly that too. There's a heartbeat right at that second, that's what seems to set it off.

 

Could you please say more about how you deal with the levels of each count? I would like to try to smooth this out

 

Ok - have you ever done the 'sipping breath' that Chia teaches for the upwards draw? Kind of like that, but not

 

So with sipping you inhale 1/9th of lung capacity, lock your throat, then inhale another 1/9th and so on until you're full.

 

The way I do it is similar - but I inhale 1/4th capacity of the lower belly -> 'lock' -> and then another 1/4 -> lock -> and another etc. until full, then when breathing out it's the same breathe out 1/4th, lock and then breathe out another 1/4th etc.

 

Now at first I start 'locking' - but it's very gentle and very quick - not really a lock, more of a 'pause'... and as I carry on breathing the pauses become smaller and smaller until I'm doing the same breath but in a smooth, continuous flow.

 

This 4:4 rhythm actually takes about the same time as a 6:6 on the StressEraser... it's just that the 4 'locks' seem to be the magic number - I've tried 1/3rd and 1/5th capacity breaths, but they lower the HRV score.

 

Other thing Ive noticed is that circular breathing(Longevity breathing?? - without pause at the bottom or top of the breathing) works best with the StressEraser.

 

Cool - I'll try that - I tend to have a natural pause at the end of the out breath.

 

Oh - also worth trying letting out an audible sigh on the out breath

[Aetherous]

Interestingly, during the hangover, when I was doing my HRV breathing using the little device that comes with the Wild Divine game - my HRV was perfect for the whole 60 minutes I did it for, but the skin conductance (or whatever it's called) was twice as high as usual - and that's an indicator of stress...

 

Heat being released through the pores may have caused that effect.

[sheng zhen]

Cool. Something interesting to look out for. Did you particularly enjoy the McD's??

 

I'll see how diet affects HRV too.

 

It's great to have such direct feedback and be able to compare notes like this.

Today I ate potatochips with pepper and salt... definitely not good for me, nor my HRV

 

I tried the 4-step-sipping-breath and it worked very well! Thanks for the tip! After a while I naturally started to do regular smooth breaths and the HRV stayed with me through the whole seesion. The sipping-breath(thats not really sipping) erased the potatochips!

 

I did, sort of, enjoy the McD. It does satisfy something. I eat there maybe once every 6 months. But every time I just get reminded why I should not eat there. I just loose my grounding and get blurry vision. But it does satisfy something... I will try once more to see if the HRV is the same as before. I will heroically sacrifice my self for this cause!!!!

Edited November 29, 2009 by sheng zhen

[markern]

With "high HRV" I mean both high amplitude and high variability. It means that the heartrate follows the breath and is not interrupted by stressfactors that make the sympathetic nervoussystem fire off unnecessarily and disrupt the work of the parasympathetic activity. HRV show the condition of these systems, and "high HRV" show a balance between those two systems. I'm not too good in english so its all a little "so-so" when I write here...

 

With "stability" I mean that the HRV is a sine wave. Not a chaotic and broken wave.

 

And yes, the proof is in the pudding! With a biofeedback device you see objectively if the pudding really contains proof... I have met people who meditate everyday and consider themselves very relaxed people, but who really have a very low HRV(an almost straight line/wave on the StressEraser). Most people are like this. Not necessarily a straight wave, but at least a very chaotic wave. They need practice and training to strengthen their nervous system so it can deal with everyday life without accumulating stress. But I met one woman who had the perfect HRV, best Ive ever seen, and she still had a lot of troubles and pain. So high HRV is not a proof of the perfect human condition. Its just an indication. I don't know why this woman had the perfect HRV. But I suspect her use of Holosync every day for many years has something to do with it, and the fact that she has received many treatments for her condition.

 

 

 

 

All this sounds very interesting to me. Especially since this type of training seems to offer some benefits not or very slowly achieved through traditional methods. Firstly, what is socially engaged as defined by these people. Does it mean that in addition to getting relaxed you get in an extroverted and social mode? Secondly, I really like the idea of strenghtening my vagus nerve. I just don't know why I like the idea Since drew and some other people talk so much about how the vagus nerve is involved in spiritual processes it sounds like a good idea to have it strenghtened somehow but I don't really know what it does to begin with and what strenghtening it will do. And what is the difference between just being really relaxed and having a great HRV score? I am also a bit vary of this because if you tain yourself to make your heartrate and breathing be in sync with an ideal for western doctors, you might get stuck at that point depsite, maybe, cultivation practices long term being able to take you to a different and more beneficial but not scientifically well understood place. My hunch is that in this case it is good to do this training, also long term. But in general I am vary of using western advice on this stuff as they just don't know enough yet.

 

If I want to do this sort of training should I use the biofeedback then since that is probably the strongest or does the stresseraser crowd disagree?

 

And if I want to do the biofeedback then what do I buy?

[sheng zhen]

Hello markern. Many questions here. I will try to give my part, and then other might fill in or give an other perspective.

 

All this sounds very interesting to me. Especially since this type of training seems to offer some benefits not or very slowly achieved through traditional methods. Firstly, what is socially engaged as defined by these people. Does it mean that in addition to getting relaxed you get in an extroverted and social mode?

Socially Engadged means that the nervous system does not react to the surroundings as a threat. It is not under stress in social situations. For many people the nervous system is under constant stress, which makes it difficult to be safe and confident in social relations. you can read more about this if you search "polyvagal theory"

 

Secondly, I really like the idea of strenghtening my vagus nerve. I just don't know why I like the idea Since drew and some other people talk so much about how the vagus nerve is involved in spiritual processes it sounds like a good idea to have it strenghtened somehow but I don't really know what it does to begin with and what strenghtening it will do.

I dont know what strengthen it will do the way Drew talks about it, but just normal, gorunded, physical strengthening will make able to relax and regenerate better. Instead of being slowly eaten by stress.

 

And what is the difference between just being really relaxed and having a great HRV score?

Having a great HRV score means your heartrate is in sync with your breathing. It indicates a balance in the autonomic nervous system: sympathetic and parasympathetic activity. This does not necessarily mean that you are relaxed. It means that you are able to deal with stress in a much more healthy way, and that your nervous system is strong. You are able to stress when you need to stress(eustress-good stress), and relax when you need to relax.

 

I am also a bit vary of this because if you tain yourself to make your heartrate and breathing be in sync with an ideal for western doctors, you might get stuck at that point depsite, maybe, cultivation practices long term being able to take you to a different and more beneficial but not scientifically well understood place. My hunch is that in this case it is good to do this training, also long term. But in general I am vary of using western advice on this stuff as they just don't know enough yet.

I dont think it should replace regular meditation or other cultivation. It is not a spiritual thing. Though it does help and strengthen regular meditation. Especially breathing meditations.

 

If I want to do this sort of training should I use the biofeedback then since that is probably the strongest or does the stresseraser crowd disagree?

 

And if I want to do the biofeedback then what do I buy?

Just do a search for StressEraser. I bought mine from MindModulation, but they have really bad and slow customer support so I would recomment finding someone else.