What is your definition of "Western Daoism"?

[C T]

My view is that there ought to be a continuing kind of compromise in order that both 'sides' can enrich one another. If teachers of the various Eastern traditions were not in favor of compromise, in my view, they would not have made all the effort to bring the teachings to the western shore.

 

While it is true that the West did go seeking the 'mountain' instead of the other way round, the 'mountain' did not shut the West out by being aloof and partial. On the contrary, seekers were welcomed with open arms (literally in some cases). Many of these teachers went the distance to ensure they could deliver the 'message' in the most effective manner possible. Just one stark example: Most of the gurus, monks, lamas, masters etc, in efforts to accommodate western students, either learnt English, or ensured always the presence of translators to facilitate better assimilation of the teachings. Naturally, the teachers themselves were not without benefit by mastering another language, but in this context, i think it shows how much willingness they had to reach out to the West.

 

If these said teachers had kept strictly to tradition, and had taken the position that it was the West who initiated the search, they could easily have chosen to remain in their respective domain, stubbornly maintaining the stance that if a student is serious enough to want to learn, then a good test of this would be for the student to first and foremost learn the native language of the respective tradition. It is fortunate this was not the case.

 

While the West benefitted tremendously from the generosity of the sacrifices the teachers made to pass on the teachings, the teachers and the traditions they each represent were not without rewards either. By extending the hand of mutual understanding and respect, most of the Eastern schools who set themselves up in the West flourished, and were able to reap the fruits of their hard work in no time. This was possible partly because the timing was perfect, but mainly due to a great readiness on the part of Western students to adopt a new paradigm shift with regards to Eastern philosophy and spirituality.

 

For this mutual benefit to continue, i think it is vital for both sides to continue working on how best to further strengthen co-operation, trust, and the willingness to remain focussed on the core objectives of how to effectively adapt Eastern Wisdom to the Western psyche for the higher good of all concerned. The efforts has to be on-going. Only then can the fusion be said to have achieved a truly significant passage into the West, and with it, the sweet bounty that both the East and the West can mutually harvest.

[Pandit Tree]

<<< Want real Daoism?

 

... in the words of Master Zheng Man Qing when talking about Taiji Quan, "Invest in loss". >>>

 

 

I am not sure if Zheng actually said that - much of his stuff in the USA came from his followers. But if one dares ask - why did Zheng demonstrate the circus stunt of 'being able to hold back "force" in the form of a big person or a line of people'? He liked doing that to non-Asians and the 'feat' is nothing but a cheap piece of fraud designed to dupe ignorant public. The 'feat' usually to show "qi" has absolutely nothing to do with that or Taiji.

 

That was, and is the kind of "Dao" that is 'Daoism' to those who want to see their "Daoism".

 

Peace

[林愛偉]

You see post about Journey but you don't see post about thuggish lookin' doods selling 'toughness' and 'meanness'... Still 'bout that "does anyone know" I would like to take your test -

 

Journey to the West is a satire which includes depicting Buddhism as 'opiate of the masses', monk as a dumbo easy to lose focus of his religion, easy to dupe when he is busy being pious, etc. You have to read the book not talk about the video series as any "value". Buddhism or Taoism is neither strong nor weak or "without application". They are dependent on the people that practise them, the clergy as well as the lay folks. Any old swindler can put on the robes and fool the public. Any 'devotee' can genuinely or self-deceptively recite the sutras until Buddha or Laozi returns. In fact you can teach a parrot to recite "Namo Amituofo" until its kingdom comes but that does not make it a Buddhist! Similarly, eating vegetables does not make one a Buddhist - you can be a vegetarian of the mouth but not of the heart. You can take on Buddhist or Taoist name but that is just a name. You can write a few articles, expound the profundity of the gospels, 'interpret' any old scripture or the Yijing - all intellectual poseurs do that! Ultimately it is the individual who has to do his own work and for himself - and he would probably do a better job making a fool of himself than some bigger fool make that for him!

 

Often 'being' something is just purely decorative, an outer image with nothing to do with actual substance. You can buy the robes and buy the titles but that has nothing to do with the heart. You can babble on about any religion but the actual practice is quite something else altogether. We can always find people who can recite sutras forward and backward, quote from texts, interpret the Yijing etc etc but you can almost always find poseurs among them. We can find same in the martial arts - mere mortals posing as tough gorillas to influence followers to be just like them. All in the name of being better human beings, no doubt... Selling emotional crutches does not help anyone any more than talking the part - acting like some kind of pseudo religious nut with need to save the world, intellectual conman going on and on about the 'depth' of their 'expertise'... 'one-inch' punch of Wing Chun - what does any of these do for the mere individual? Sweet nothing!

 

As for "When the west presents statues and architecture, and daily lifestyle in he mannerisms of Daoism of China, and vice verse, then one can say Daoism has anchored itself in the west.", the Buddha had his mission flourish under a tree. There are forest monastery without roofs all over Asia. There are Taoists who still live in caves... The exact opposite may happen when all the external trappings become the belief - all nice buildings with no faith in the hearts of the admirers of statues and architecture. We can leave out the "mannerisms of Daoism of China" or of anywhere else - where is the Buddhism and Taoism in the first place be they Chinese, "Western" or Brooklyn?

 

An absolute waste of my time...

 

have fun every body.

[Pandit Tree]

An absolute waste of my time...

 

have fun every body.

 

 

 

I thought your time is to take us to 'the other side'.

 

However, it seems you pick and choose whom to be 'compassionate' to!

 

Your time seems to be to pontificate to the easier 'audience'.

 

 

The "Ai Wei" speaks for itself but the "Jing" sure is missing from the "Xin"

 

 

 

Sure explains the need for those macho men for your site!

 

Namo whatever, alright!

Edited November 29, 2009 by Pandit Tree

[Stigweard]

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Popular Western Taoism - Louis Komjathy

 

and Kwai Chang Caine (David Carradine; 1972-1975)

 

 

Man, David Carradine was only three years old when he died? How sad.

 

Sorry. Couldn't resist the typo.

[dwai]

Dwai,

 

With the greatest respect (and I mean that), I do not agree with your position. Spiritual traditions do change in expression with changes in time, environment and culture. Otherwise human history in this respect would not have so many examples of traditions and schools to draw from. Terrain is one of the most important features which impact on the style and nature of teachings in different countries and times.

 

Of course it is true that authenticity must be protected otherwise all we will have is a New Agey free for all but if, for instance Taoism is to work (if I can use that phrase) in the modern western world then it has to provide understanding and tools to deal with those things that people experience. The teaching needs to be effective in what it does ... and this is not achieved by clinging to ancient trappings.

 

I am not suggesting that the Tao itself is a new Tao, its just the 'ism' that changes.

 

A.

 

Apepch,

 

I think the biggest chasm here is with the assumption that there are "ancient trappings" of any kind, whatsoever.

 

Taoism is probably the most easy and uncomplicated spiritual tradition to follow and imho, it can be followed 100% without any dilution or modification.

 

The "ism" however has changed. In fact it has evolved, but it's traditional places of practice.

 

Otherwise like you pointed out, we will have a New-agey free-for-all!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Among the most crippling of attachments is the attachment to 'power'.. my interest in Taoism has spanned four decades, since a four-week portion of a course in high school called 'Cultural World History'.. the 'Taoism' section was only supposed to last a week, but.. in 1968 we were fascinated with the simple practicallity, and it helped that the teacher was an early student of Zen.. from that point till today Taoism has revealed itself as a practical guide to living well.. what has happened since that early introduction to the 'mysteries of Taoism' is that science has been able to reveal the processes that were once the domain of 'Mystics'.. 'Mystics' rather enjoyed their 'power' as keepers of the wisdoms.. Tradition is the strangle-hold applied by Mystics, fearful of losing their grip on the 'mysteries'.. what is eluding the Mystics, is that science reveals even more mystery, and.. it has done so largely on their shoulders.. Mystics are needed, they blaze the trails that science paves.. but, stagnant Traditions will burden the expansion of consciousness.. Ancient traditions are ateeped in superstition and myth, Mystics have always been the visionaries.. why stop now, why let the greed of power confine the expansion of consciousness.. Mystics were respected and feared, they were paid for their services and often immune to bureaucracy... Tradition is worthy of respect and deeply intense study, but.. if it can't evolve with the expanding consciousness it will stagnate and wither..

 

Be well..

[Apech]

Apepch,

 

I think the biggest chasm here is with the assumption that there are "ancient trappings" of any kind, whatsoever.

 

Taoism is probably the most easy and uncomplicated spiritual tradition to follow and imho, it can be followed 100% without any dilution or modification.

 

The "ism" however has changed. In fact it has evolved, but it's traditional places of practice.

 

Otherwise like you pointed out, we will have a New-agey free-for-all!

 

 

OK ... but maybe even that way of looking at it is a Western one.

 

A.

[wen]

[Pandit Tree]

 

How calculating!

 

Time is money?

 

I thought your time is to take us to 'the other side'.

 

However, it seems you pick and choose whom to be 'compassionate' to!

 

Your time seems to be to pontificate to the easier 'audience'.

 

The "Ai Wei" speaks for itself but the "Jing" sure is missing from the "Xin"

Sure explains the need for those macho men for your site!

 

Namo whatever, alright!

[Encephalon]

Greetings..

 

Among the most crippling of attachments is the attachment to 'power'.. my interest in Taoism has spanned four decades, since a four-week portion of a course in high school called 'Cultural World History'.. the 'Taoism' section was only supposed to last a week, but.. in 1968 we were fascinated with the simple practicallity, and it helped that the teacher was an early student of Zen.. from that point till today Taoism has revealed itself as a practical guide to living well.. what has happened since that early introduction to the 'mysteries of Taoism' is that science has been able to reveal the processes that were once the domain of 'Mystics'.. 'Mystics' rather enjoyed their 'power' as keepers of the wisdoms.. Tradition is the strangle-hold applied by Mystics, fearful of losing their grip on the 'mysteries'.. what is eluding the Mystics, is that science reveals even more mystery, and.. it has done so largely on their shoulders.. Mystics are needed, they blaze the trails that science paves.. but, stagnant Traditions will burden the expansion of consciousness.. Ancient traditions are ateeped in superstition and myth, Mystics have always been the visionaries.. why stop now, why let the greed of power confine the expansion of consciousness.. Mystics were respected and feared, they were paid for their services and often immune to bureaucracy... Tradition is worthy of respect and deeply intense study, but.. if it can't evolve with the expanding consciousness it will stagnate and wither..

 

Be well..

 

This is precisely why I'm delving into more of Fritjof Capra's works, currently, "The Web of Life." It is basically Taoism as delineated by systems theory and ecology, as ecology has eclipsed physics as the umbrella science for understanding living systems.

 

I'm with you. There is no sense in subscribing to Iron Age mythology when the intuitive arts were as highly refined and as "truth-discovering" as our contemporary scientific method. Similarly, Christians can enjoy the peace and serenity of their sacraments and still recognize the social constructs that they are.

 

Be weller.

[doc benway]

Daoism is just a name, firstly. People are too attached to this notion that the "Way" is some non-changing ever present substance. Actually, the Way exists because of the views people have.

 

 

 

Greetings..

 

 

Tao is like water, it takes the shape of that which contains it..

 

I like both of these ideas because, to me, the Dao and all of us and everything is not "made of" stuff of any sort. The more we investigate the nature of things, the more we find that there is no stuff. There is just process and relationship. This is beautifully expressed in Daoist writings as well as the Buddhist philosophy.

 

 

Another thing that needs to be compromised on the west's side, is all these nonsense books on Daoism. Drop them all, and take Chinese Daoist scriptures and their commentaries, translate them, and read them, propagate proper Daoism...for free.

Here, I will respectfully disagree. I think that there are Western writings about Daoism that are very helpful, particularly to those with Western conditioning and sensibilities. Some Western Daoist writing is crap.

Then again, so is some of the Chinese writing. Not all of the Daoist canon is valuable or meaningful in modern life and not all the Western writings are crap.

YMMV

[Encephalon]

I like both of these ideas because, to me, the Dao and all of us and everything is not "made of" stuff of any sort. The more we investigate the nature of things, the more we find that there is no stuff. There is just process and relationship. This is beautifully expressed in Daoist writings as well as the Buddhist philosophy.

 

Here, I will respectfully disagree. I think that there are Western writings about Daoism that are very helpful, particularly to those with Western conditioning and sensibilities. Some Western Daoist writing is crap.

Then again, so is some of the Chinese writing. Not all of the Daoist canon is valuable or meaningful in modern life and not all the Western writings are crap.

YMMV

 

I'm with you here as well. How many times have we seen unschooled Westerners beating each other over the head with western scripture (the Bible)? There is an enormous amount of inner and academic work to do before we are capable of interpreting ancient texts without our own biased filters, and this becomes even more problematic when a westerner makes the attempt on texts from other (eastern) cultures. There's a reason why a PhD in divinity or theology is brutal; you have to be able to speak latin, hebrew, Greek just to ferret out original intent, and judging by some the translations available, it's clear that the process isn't foolproof!

 

That's why I am indebted to the few westerners (Frantzis, Reid, Ming-Dao, and others) that took the time and effort to learn the language and study in China in order to give the rest of us a starting point.

[goldisheavy]

Can't say anything yet about "Western" Daoism. There is just too little scholarship or scholarly work in the West on "Eastern" Daoism to enable one to get into any depth. Let alone evolve in any meaningful way into anything else eg "Western", American or Tasmanian.

 

That is not to say "Western" Daoism is not possible.

 

The Japanese manufacture many a fine whisky having learned over the century to distill that from Scotland. They have added many innovations to the manufacturing process. They study and refine techniques. Their quest to produce better and better scotch will no doubt bring great result as they continue their devotion to making great products. Great work, self pride!

 

But the Japanese are only able to do that because they are willing to learn English, live in Scotland, work very hard, think very hard, forego the self, keep and keep trying etc to achieve their success. Now they have their own scotch the can be proud of. They also own a substantial part of the Scottish whisky industry.

 

Japanese pottery is sought after all over the world. For over two centuries Japanese potters have been coming to England to learn the craft, living in rough environment, learning over long periods... Now they have their own distinct art. Good for them!

 

The Koreans are to be admired too. They are industrious and they achieved a lot by devote learning from the West and surpassing them in many fields. Japanese and Korean management for example are copied by the West. Mostly without success...

 

I am not surprised the Japanese and Korean are pretty hunkydory at research into Daoism. They hardly spend much time discussing the Daoism of the northern or southern hemisphere. They can read, write and speak Chinese, they are very willing to improve all the time. They quickly disappear into the Chinese environment by effort at being comfortable with themselves and with the Chinese. From amidst the Chinese they interact, they learn, they contribute... No doubt they will go far in the research and practice of Daoism. I wish them every success!

 

Sometimes I hear that it is because some Asian cultures are "Confucian" blah but that is another story...

 

and so is the one about some Chinese Druids starting their own "Eastern" sect... their scholars are busy sitting on their hind quarters talking shop... mostly discussing their interpretation of that hallowed religion as uniquely Chinese and nothing to do with being indolent about learning ye olde gutteral. They of course call their shallowness "authority".

 

You'll never get rich counting other people's gold. This is why it's a fool's game to chase labels that you don't own. How can you hope to become a Daoist of any kind, if you're not the one in charge of the meaning? Of what it means to be one? You'll constantly be licking other people's asses and at no time can you really be comfortable knowing that "Now I am a true Daoist." Always someone can enter the room and challenge your claims simply because you're an outsider, or considered as one.

 

Let's take something like chess. Chess is something Russians are very good at. Does this mean that the only way to get good at chess is to go to Russia and study at Kasparov's feet? That's utter and total bollocks. For sure there are some very clever grandmasters in Russia, and if you bother to learn Russian, you may meet some of them (or you may meet average nobodies...because let's face it, a "master of sports" is still a nobody in the world of chess, because even though it's a high title, there are tons of such people, and it's relatively speaking, even though master of sports in chess can beat 99.9999% of all players, such person is not highly regarded by the grandmasters, who are the biggest elitist snobs you've ever seen to walk this Earth. They go, "master of sports???" phhhhhffffttoooeeeyyy... I can beat 100 masters of sports, they are all morons, not worth listening to. Fuck that. Of course these folks are also often way too busy and way too important to teach anyone anything. So even if they have skill, their skill is worthless, like the shade of a tree that grows on the moon is worthless in hot summer.

 

Yes, so you can get lucky and learn from a decent middling chess master in Russia. But did Bobby Fisher have to go to Russia? What about Viswanathan Anand, which Russian master did he learn from?

 

Let's see what Anand himself has to say:

 

I started when I was six. My mother taught me how to play. In fact, my mother used to do a lot for my chess. We moved to the Philippines shortly afterward. I joined the club in India and we moved to the Philippines for a year. And there they had a TV program that was on in the afternoon, one to two or something like that, when I was in school. So she would write down all the games that they showed and the puzzles, and in the evening we solved them together.

 

Of course my mother and her family used to play some chess, and she used to play her younger brother, so she had some background in chess, but she never went to a club or anything like that.

 

So we solved all these puzzles and sent in our answers together. And they gave the prize of a book to the winner. And over the course of many months, I won so many prizes. At one point they just said take all the books you want, but don't send in anymore entries.

 

Wow, what shit!! He learned from his mother??!! WHO THE FUCK IS SHE? She's a nobody. What Chess lineage does she have? Eh? Then he learned more chess from TV??? What is this? ? ? New Age Chess?? WHAT THE FUCK? How did this boot licker ever became World Champion?

 

Of course the problem with chess is that it's a clearly defined game, with obvious and clear rules, so that anyone can learn it. Daoism is so confused and confusing, that no one, not even the Daoists themselves, know what the fuck they are talking about. At any one moment they can't be sure if it's Daoism or just another turd that's slipping away from their tongues. Why? Because Daoism is so fucking profound, it is meaningless. This is why anyone can point fingers and make any kind of claims, be it the Western Charlatan, or this moron here called "Ponderous Vegetation" or some other vegetable, I can't remember his name. Then it becomes a game of who has the brightest feathers, and folks, you know me. I've been here for a while... if we start to play this game, I win and you all lose. There is no contest.

 

This is why you don't want these labels. If you call yourself Daoist, you will be subject to all kind of mockery and questioning from the Chinese. Why bother? If you like some Daoist wisdom, respect it and learn from it, but don't call yourself Daoist and don't travel to China to lick anyone's boots over there. The more you try to ingratiate yourself to your foreign mother, the more she will spit on you.

 

Find your power within. These are not some empty words.

 

Any knowledge worth learning is universal and is universally applicable. If you have to travel to a special secret locale to learn some knowledge and if it's the only place where you can learn it, it's not a universal knowledge. Universal knowledge can be learned from anywhere within the universe. Hence, "universal." For example, the knowledge about inertia. You can learn this at any location, either by yourself, or from an endless multitude of teachers. Objects exhibit inertia all over the place. So if you understand inertia in India, you also understand it in Russia and in the Sahara Desert as well. Because such knowledge is applicable everywhere, it's worth learning. And because it's applicable everywhere, it's possible to learn it everywhere. Anything worth learning can be learned right where you are.

 

But some people just don't get it. You can keep saying it over and over but it has no effect. Frankly, I think New Age people are more enlightened than most snobby and elitist religionists and Daoists and what have you.

Edited November 30, 2009 by goldisheavy

[doc benway]

I can beat 100 masters of sports, they are all morons, not worth listening to. Fuck that. Of course these folks are also often way too busy and way too important to teach anyone anything. So even if they have skill, their skill is worthless, like the shade of a tree that grows on the moon is worthless in hot summer.

I like this!

 

.... and folks, you know me. I've been here for a while... if we start to play this game, I win and you all lose. There is no contest.

 

Hmmm, kind of like a chess grandmaster?

I'm glad you're still around gold - sometimes enlightening, sometimes exaperating, always entertaining.

[goldisheavy]

Hmmm, kind of like a chess grandmaster?

 

Precisely.

 

I'm glad you're still around gold - sometimes enlightening, sometimes exaperating, always entertaining.

 

I am happy you get a kick out of it. Makes it all worth it. Please remember to tip your waiter.

Edited November 30, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Stigweard]

[Tao99]

Then it becomes a game of who has the brightest feathers, and folks, you know me. I've been here for a while... if we start to play this game, I win and you all lose. There is no contest.

 

j/k "If it were not for the laughter, the Way would not be what it is." -- Laozi

Edited December 2, 2009 by Tao99