What is your definition of "Western Daoism"?

[Stigweard]

As a tangential exploration of my paper New Gateways For Modern Western Daoists, a friend of mine suggested that a definition of what Western Daoism is would be imperative.

 

I have to agree, even though it's hard enough defining what Eastern Daoism is yet alone the collective result of how the different branches of Daoism have permeated into the west.

 

So, if such a definition was possible, how would you define "Western Daoism"?

[Apech]

Stig,

 

As a contribution to the conversation I would look at the term "Western Daoism" itself by examining each word carefully.

 

The word west is a solar reference - the place where the sun sets - (from the online etymological dictionary ...perhaps an enlarged form of base *we- "to go down" (cf. Skt. avah "downward"), and thus lit. "direction in which the sun sets.")

 

The traditional thinking is that 'West' signifies both this downwardness and an outwardness - that is a focus on the external world and of an empirical approach to the sense-world. Hence the focus in the West on the scientific method and increasing materialism (I don't use this term pejoratively). While the East is upward and inward.

 

Daoism is obviously 'the way' or as its a 'ism' the way of following the way. So Western Daoism would be following the way with reference to how we live in the 'real' world. Or perhaps we say could say that this form of Daoism emphasises an empirical method - which would mean that we continuously test what we think we understand by trying to put it into practice and using the results of our efforts to feedback to ourselves understanding. That is to say it is less based in belief or any suspension of critical faculties - less devotional perhaps and more hard headed???? Maybe?????

 

I think for instance we on here are very interested in what works ... you see it a lot ... questioning and challenging... can you really do this? do people really have these powers ... how do you use qi for effecting change ... and so on. Not many people seem to want to do the pure faith thing ...

 

Anyway just some thoughts....

 

Cheers

 

A.

[sherab]

As a tangential exploration of my paper New Gateways For Modern Western Daoists, a friend of mine suggested that a definition of what Western Daoism is would be imperative.

 

I have to agree, even though it's hard enough defining what Eastern Daoism is yet alone the collective result of how the different branches of Daoism have permeated into the west.

 

So, if such a definition was possible, how would you define "Western Daoism"?

For some, it is the western adaption of eastern methods, yet for others, it is a belief that asians are superstitious, and have distorted the message of the TTC, and yet to others, it is a mix of new age, and letting you do whatever you want because everything is the flow of Tao.

 

Just what I think.. It is hard to pinpoint, since theres no real institution or history of it here.

[Tao99]

Hi Stig,

 

Since there is only one Dao and Daoist Canon, I would hope that at worst it only means Daoism practiced by someone who lives in the West, and not some new, doctrinal theory, or enshrined subset.

 

Just guessing but I think you need to ask yourself what you would like to be involved in, career-wise. Are you hoping Daoist religion will be planted in the West to compete with Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam? If "Western Daoism" isn't a religion then what is it that the West would recognize? Is it a philosophy or mysticism? Is it a meditation school, like Chan (Zen) Buddhism? Is that what the West masses would sign up for?

 

Or maybe it follows the smooth Hindu like entry into America and the West, where Western Hinduism means only yoga to the masses - where Hinduism makes its smooth, non-competing entry into the West - as a simple yoga meditation practice where you pick up some of the more secular Hindu principles. Being an American and knowing how it defines itself, this is the best model for Daoism to take as its entry method into the West. In the same way, Western Daoism will only mean "Tai Chi" to the masses, but it's where Doaism makes its smooth, non-competing entry into the West - as a simple Tai Chi meditation practice for the masses, where you pick up some of the more secular Daoist principles. Maybe it's because I'm American that I prefer this invisible presence.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Tao99

[TzuJanLi]

[Dainin]

The "Western Daoism" that can be defined is not "Western Daoism"!

[Encephalon]

I can't speak for Taoism, but the literature devoted to the transformation of Buddhism as it melded and syncretized with the cultures it came into contact with is vast and fairly up to date. "How the Swans Came to the Lake" is one of the chief titles of this phenom. Of course, Christianity is the ultimate example of religious syncretism.

 

I suspect that the elements of Taoism that resonate with the western intellectual and scientific tradition will garner the greatest attention. It would seem that Fritjof Capra and the rest of the spiritual "deep ecology" movement have blazed this trail pretty well. I still haven't found much literature on Taoist environmentalism, while Buddhist environmentalism grows every day, perhaps because Taoism is more concerned with physical development. I frankly see western Taoism coming to the fore when chi kung is recognized for the medical advantages, especially when the western medical paradigm comes crashing down.

[Pandit Tree]

Depends on the definition of definition and the definition of define, really...

 

Still, when it is "defined" it then becomes what it is not...

 

 

As the resident expert waiting to be discovered, Sickweird, you should really be the One to tell us what to split the whatever you use to split a hair with!

 

But can't you just be and not let that head of yours do painful overtime?

 

Brute force in the Chu tradition and loutish challenge to push hands ain't the way for the head!

 

 

Laozi advised you relax, don't do the funny weed, remove that Ned Kelly helmet from off your skull, let air in, let fresh thoughts in, let go of concepts, let go..!

 

Breathe in, breathe out.....

 

Scupper those unsinkable junk from your head...

 

 

When that Qi of the universe permeates, you thoughts become clearer, your pontifications more profound...

 

What's more, you might even begin to do real Taiji!

 

(Alternatively, try raw tofu, be a vegan, wallow yourself in sacred mud; leave your beard longer, dye it white, put on orange frock, call yourself Maban Tjukuritja Katoomba that be the order of the Grand Lodge of Eastern Daoism - as opposed to Southern or Northern Daoism or Uncle Ming's Dragon Gate Restaurant)

 

Meanwhile, a journey of a million posts begin at the first step - relax!

[Encephalon]

Depends on the definition of definition and the definition of define, really...

 

Still, when it is "defined" it then becomes what it is not...

As the resident expert waiting to be discovered, Sickweird, you should really be the One to tell us what to split the whatever you use to split a hair with!

 

But can't you just be and not let that head of yours do painful overtime?

 

Brute force in the Chu tradition and loutish challenge to push hands ain't the way for the head!

Laozi advised you relax, don't do the funny weed, remove that Ned Kelly helmet from off your skull, let air in, let fresh thoughts in, let go of concepts, let go..!

 

Breathe in, breathe out.....

 

Scupper those unsinkable junk from your head...

When that Qi of the universe permeates, you thoughts become clearer, your pontifications more profound...

 

What's more, you might even begin to do real Taiji!

 

(Alternatively, try raw tofu, be a vegan, wallow yourself in sacred mud; leave your beard longer, dye it white, put on orange frock, call yourself Maban Tjukuritja Katoomba that be the order of the Grand Lodge of Eastern Daoism - as opposed to Southern or Northern Daoism or Uncle Ming's Dragon Gate Restaurant)

 

Meanwhile, a journey of a million posts begin at the first step - relax!

 

I'm reading "Chronicles of the Tao" by Deng Ming-Dao, where Kwan Saihang is being counseled by his elders to begin the process of eliminating any and all shreds of his ego, which was quite a feat for someone who acquired the ability to act formidably without the slightest effort.

 

I am no where near that level of accomplishment, and unfortunately, will not live long enough to acquire it. At 50, however, I can live long enough to begin the process of stripping away the gratuitous expessions of my ego. My interest in religious Taoism is virtually nil, but as an academic subject, it is no less worthy than religious history of the West.

 

That being said, Pandit Tree, I've heard more thoughtful commentary from stool samples.

[dwai]

As a tangential exploration of my paper New Gateways For Modern Western Daoists, a friend of mine suggested that a definition of what Western Daoism is would be imperative.

 

I have to agree, even though it's hard enough defining what Eastern Daoism is yet alone the collective result of how the different branches of Daoism have permeated into the west.

 

So, if such a definition was possible, how would you define "Western Daoism"?

 

I would consider it a blatantly wrong thing. Why categorize "Western"? What is it's other? Eastern? Isn't Daoism originated in China?

 

Is the label intended to suggest that somehow the practice and following of Daoism in the West somehow different from that in the East?

 

I have similar issues with people suggesting that there is a Western Hinduism, A Western Buddhist and so on. If there is a Western component to it, it still is simply Daoism, Hinduism or Buddhism. If these get modified somehow to be different from how they are practiced in their mother cultures, then they have become abberations, not valid practices any longer.

[Encephalon]

I would consider it a blatantly wrong thing. Why categorize "Western"? What is it's other? Eastern? Isn't Daoism originated in China?

 

Is the label intended to suggest that somehow the practice and following of Daoism in the West somehow different from that in the East?

 

I have similar issues with people suggesting that there is a Western Hinduism, A Western Buddhist and so on. If there is a Western component to it, it still is simply Daoism, Hinduism or Buddhism. If these get modified somehow to be different from how they are practiced in their mother cultures, then they have become abberations, not valid practices any longer.

 

The significant differences between the eastern and western intellectual tradition makes this a profoundly important distinction. The east/west dialogue of the last half century has completely escaped you. You've got some homework ahead of you, pal.

 

 

"The Passion of the Western Mind," by Richard Tarnas, and "A Buddhist History of the West," by David Loy could go far in explaining why these traditions are subject to such extraordinarily different interpretations.

 

We think differently.

Edited November 27, 2009 by Blasto

[dwai]

The significant differences between the eastern and western intellectual tradition makes this a profoundly important distinction. The east/west dialogue of the last half century has completely escaped you. You've got some homework ahead of you, pal.

 

Practice of Taoism has nothing to do with such a dialog. For, in order to practice Taoism you have become a Taoist. By doing that, you are accepting the framework that Taoism has to offer as your own.

 

As far as intellectual traditions go, the Eastern traditions are naturally more suitable for Taoist practices, because, well, the framework is native to the East. There are cultural nuances, concepts and ideas that are easily understood in such a light. A single word in an Eastern language might communicate a plethora of concepts, ideas and even evoke visual imagery that when translated into a Western Language cannot possibly be conveyed in it's original sense anymore (at least not until you add a few paragraphs to go into descriptive detail).

 

It is easier and better, imo, for the seeker to immerse himself/herself in the tradition native to Taoism (or whichever "ism" you are following) rather than try and re-interpret the "ism" to suit his/her fancies.

 

There are intellectual traditions in the West that when expanded can become well suited for Taoism, but if you modify Taoist practices to suit what these intellectual traditions posit, then what remains isn't Taoism anymore.

Edited November 27, 2009 by dwai

[manitou]

It may be that the answer lies with where we have come from. From the west, we have a whole bunch of materialistic challenges; perhaps not so much in the east. I'll bet the real difference is in what we've given up and transcended.

 

It may be that the answer lies with where we have come from. From the west, we have a whole bunch of materialistic challenges; perhaps not so much in the east. I'll bet the real difference is in what we've given up and transcended.

[Encephalon]

Practice of Taoism has nothing to do with such a dialog. For, in order to practice Taoism you have become a Taoist. By doing that, you are accepting the framework that Taoism has to offer as your own.

 

As far as intellectual traditions go, the Eastern traditions are naturally more suitable for Taoist practices, because, well, the framework is native to the East. There are intellectual traditions in the West that when expanded can become well suited for Taoism, but if you modify Taoist practices to suit what these intellectual traditions posit, then what remains isn't Taoism anymore.

 

Yeah, I'll ponder that. MY apologies for the patronizing homework adage. Try as I might, I still come off as a smartass in here. Must be the heroin talking.

 

Yeah, I'll ponder that. MY apologies for the patronizing homework adage. Try as I might, I still come off as a smartass in here. Must be the heroin talking.

 

so, what if I just secularize my internal alchemy practice, my nei kung, bone up on anatomy and physio, and study human ecology in lieu of some quasi-mystical text about interconnectedness and living in accordance with the Tao? Could I not be practicing my own form of westernized Taoism, stripped of religious Taoism, and still acquire the essence of Taoist truth?

 

I mean, as a fifty year old, that's all I'll be doing 'til I croak anyway.

[dwai]

 

"The Passion of the Western Mind," by Richard Tarnas, and "A Buddhist History of the West," by David Loy could go far in explaining why these traditions are subject to such extraordinarily different interpretations.

 

We think differently.

 

 

You have no idea how familiar I am with that statement. In fact I I'd like to present a link (albeit contrasting Indian and Western thought here, since it becomes relevant in our context):

 

East vs West -- the myths that mystify

 

What the "intellectual traditions" represent are categorical frameworks, that provide rules with which the individual (or collection of individuals) create their world. The presentation in the link is telling in it's approach.

 

That said, if you have to understand Taoism or Buddhism or Hinduism, you have to approach it using the rules that they use. You cannot use Western rules/categorical frameworks to approach these.

[Pietro]

I would say it is too early for such a definition. I mean. it takes longer than a generation for a tradition to be estabilished in a new land. Now Taoism has already had some story over here, but is still changing very much.

 

We started with how Daoism was brought in, mainly by Christian missionaries who spoke with Confucianists who pretty much said: "yeah you have this big guys 2 thousand years ago, and then the rest is just rubbish." . Then a lot of the people just following their understanding of Daoism, reading a translation of the Tao Te Ching, and making the most they can out of it. And how this weaved in with all the romantic movement. I am here thinking about Thoreau, and people who would equally be inspired by Lao Tzu and Thoreau. And then all this being fully embodied in the movement of the 1968. And then how from 1968 you started having schools slowly moving here. In Canada the Taoist Association. Mantak Chia in America. And a lot of other small school. And of course Bruce has also his place here, as he is bringing a type of Taoism which is quite hard to find on the east. But it has not ended. More and more schools will keep on coming. Look at David Verdesi. We can criticize him as much as we want, but it is true that is making us in touch with a type of Taoism most of us were not even aware. Or Mak Sin Ti.

 

I you just look in those ten years, how the discussion has changed. When this discussion board started we only knew about Mantak CHia, and that was it. China was far away. Now we have often people writing in the board in Chinese, from China. Someone arrives, calls himself a master, a priest, or a disciple of this or that school, and he is telling something, and immediately we can check if what he sais makes any sense or not.

 

Look at how Buddhism changed from India to Tibet to China to Japan. Each country needed a lot to integrate it. ANd the tradition changed. Now we are still discovering the tradition. Then there will be a moment where the western philosophical roots will really start to struggle, play and dance together with the eastern philosophical thought. Right now western philosophers often ignore Taoism. It is not even listed among the major religions. In a university you need to take a course in oriental studies. Until Taoism will not be teached in the west as part of the main philosophical topic, it is too early to look for a definition.

[dwai]

 

so, what if I just secularize my internal alchemy practice, my nei kung, bone up on anatomy and physio, and study human ecology in lieu of some quasi-mystical text about interconnectedness and living in accordance with the Tao? Could I not be practicing my own form of westernized Taoism, stripped of religious Taoism, and still acquire the essence of Taoist truth?

 

I mean, as a fifty year old, that's all I'll be doing 'til I croak anyway.

 

Really? How will you secularize internal alchemy? Nei Gung?

 

Taoism is a spiritual practice. And no matter how one tries to skin this cat, it will remain precisely that...a spiritual practice. The end result is realization of Tao. So you might decide to learn Nei Gung from the Chinese and then change it's name to "Noah's Practice" (for eg, say). Does that change the practice of Nei Gung? It might be severely dishonest and unethical to appropriate and then re-brand and re-market the Chinese art/science of Nei Gung, calling Nei Gung Noah's Practice is not going to change the practice in any way. If you do, it is not Nei Gung any more.

 

Also, these quasi-mystical texts that talk about interconnectedness and whatnot, are not simply texts for the sake of texts. They are recordings of the experiential knowledge of those who have gone before us. So if you practice correctly, you will come upon the same experiences.

 

How you interpret these will of course vary based on your categorical framework. To be a little more clear -- you as a Westerner will/might interpret the experiential knowledge gained using the rules you know. But that is not Taoism. Because Taoism is the experience, not the interpretation.

 

Works such as Tao Te Ching are not interpretations, they are direct recordings of experiential knowledge. They are also guidelines of how to approach the Tao. No where in the Tao te Ching

[doc benway]

Hi Stig,

Not sure if this will help at all.

I live in the West but I wouldn't consider myself a Daoist. I'm not much for definitions, labels, and categories.

I do practice Taijiquan and Daoist meditation daily.

My practices have spilled over into my daily life.

I'm lucky enough to have found a good teacher.

 

 

My teacher doesn't advocate much in the way of reading or study. He's not one for philosophical discussions or interpretations. I have done some reading about Daoism nonetheless - I've read a few translations of Laozi in English and I've tried translating a few of the chapters myself (not very well). I've read a few English translations of Zhuangzi and Liezi and a variety of other writings on Daoism. I've read nearly nothing on the subject for the past year or so, although I have been reading Anthony Demello and Jiddu Krishnamurti on and off, both of whom are very Daoist in their insights and approach, though they wouldn't take labels as such, if they were alive I suspect. Demello was a Jesuit and Krishnamurti eschewed labels of all kinds - this was a big part of his fundamental teaching. His teachings were a very direct expression of Dao De Jing's first chapter.

 

I don't practice any of the "religious" aspects of Daoism. I have no interest in deities, incantations, magic, fus, Yijing, and the like. If my teacher ever offered to help me study Yijing, I would consider it, otherwise I just don't have the interest. Too intellectual for my taste right now. I don't spend much time studying the philosophy but rather I find myself living it. It helps me immensely in my daily life. I'm always looking for and finding the world to be a reflection of the principles of Tai Ji and Wu Wei. It allows for a great deal of personal understanding and acceptance, particularly in times of stress or when faced with unpleasant situations.

 

Trying to "define" Western Daoism would be a bit presumptuous and artificial, IMO.

Similarly, trying to define Daoism alone is a formidable, if possible task.

 

One aspect of Western Daoism that I think is very important to be aware of is the diaspora, if you will, of Chinese Daoists that occurred as a result of the cultural revolution in China. Mao's policies effectively neutered much of traditional Chinese culture, Daoism included. Most serious martial artists and practitioners of the Daoist methods were either jailed, executed, went into hiding, or fled. Those that didn't have mostly died of natural causes by now. A few may have managed to pass along their skills and knowledge but much was lost. The Chinese may not want the world to believe this but much of what is considered traditional Chinese martial art and Daoist practice is an attempt at reconstruction and commercialization by the powers that be currently. This is probably one reason for the recent Daoist event you attended. It's certainly the case in places like Shaolin and Wudang and even Chen village. Much of the ancient wisdom is dead and gone. Some has survived, much of that on Taiwan and elsewhere outside of China. I would take many of the "experts" in China with a large grain of salt.

 

Many of the finest martial arts and cultivation experts fled to Taiwan and elsewhere and their legacies carry on in other places. I think a lot of anger and bitterness exist in China as a result of their losses during the latter half of the 20th century. Some of this is displaced onto foreigners and other easy targets as it remains very difficult and risky to manifest anger and resentment toward those that are the most deserving - the leadership and the very people themselves who bought into the insanity.

 

So I think Western Daoism is a very complex subject. It includes Westerners, like myself, who are lucky enough to have credible teachers and practice Daoist methods and others who try to practice from books and videos and the like (most of which, unfortunately are incomplete, inaccurate, and often the creations of opportunists who have cobbled together bits and pieces of a variety of traditions). It includes Westerners who are attracted to the philosophical insights of Daoism. It includes martial artists who are attracted to the spiritual aspects of their practice. It includes refugees of Mao's cultural genocide and their offspring and successors. It includes the Chinese diaspora in general who practice the rituals of religious Daoism in their new homes. And it includes quite a few opportunists, occultists, and new agers who are drawn to things like immortality and magic and who think they will find such secrets or an opportunity for exploitation in these practices. Daoism both in and outside of China is a very heterogeneous subject that I think will be very tough to capture in a meaningful definition.

 

Good luck with your project.

[Pietro]

Very good consideration, Steve.

 

One aspect of Western Daoism that I think is very important to be aware of is the diaspora, if you will, of Chinese Daoists that occurred as a result of the cultural revolution in China. Mao's policies effectively neutered much of traditional Chinese culture, Daoism included. Most serious martial artists and practitioners of the Daoist methods were either jailed, executed, went into hiding, or fled. Those that didn't have mostly died of natural causes by now. A few may have managed to pass along their skills and knowledge but much was lost. The Chinese may not want the world to believe this but much of what is considered traditional Chinese martial art and Daoist practice is an attempt at reconstruction and commercialization by the powers that be currently. This is probably one reason for the recent Daoist event you attended. It's certainly the case in places like Shaolin and Wudang and even Chen village. Much of the ancient wisdom is dead and gone. Some has survived, much of that on Taiwan and elsewhere outside of China. I would take many of the "experts" in China with a large grain of salt.

 

 

One thing I would be very well aware of is that Daoism has a tradition of being under and secluded. They/we know how to do it. We don't need external garments, or external recognition. We lived many times under oppressive regimes. So I think that Taoism is well alive, under. I just do not believe that it will come out of the closet because the government have invited it. I mean, some of the small guys will....

[doc benway]

Very good consideration, Steve.

One thing I would be very well aware of is that Daoism has a tradition of being under and secluded. They/we know how to do it. We don't need external garments, or external recognition. We lived many times under oppressive regimes. So I think that Taoism is well alive, under. I just do not believe that it will come out of the closet because the government have invited it. I mean, some of the small guys will....

Good points, Pietro.

For all we know, once out of the closet, the Daoist practitioners may end up on someone's list somewhere, just waiting for the next extermination attempt. I'd certainly be wary in their shoes.

[Guest artform]

Hi All!

 

This conversation is fun.

 

Here is a good piece of background and framework IMHO. Linear Western time and cyclical Eastern time, however gross the over simplification. Viewing this topic and definition challenge through narrative mytho-poetics should please. For starters: http://www.ted.com/talks/devdutt_pattanaik.html

 

Of course Joni Mitchell and others in the cultural dimension have been moving us into cyclical time too. Early days.

 

Back to quantum mind, microtubules and the like soon in this discussion too.

 

artform

[Pandit Tree]

I'm reading "Chronicles of the Tao" by Deng Ming-Dao, where Kwan Saihang is being counseled by his elders to begin the process of eliminating any and all shreds of his ego, which was quite a feat for someone who acquired the ability to act formidably without the slightest effort.

 

I am no where near that level of accomplishment, and unfortunately, will not live long enough to acquire it. At 50, however, I can live long enough to begin the process of stripping away the gratuitous expessions of my ego. My interest in religious Taoism is virtually nil, but as an academic subject, it is no less worthy than religious history of the West.

 

That being said, Pandit Tree, I've heard more thoughtful commentary from stool samples.

 

 

Depends on what you define as "an academic subject" and depends on what you define as "stool" really...

 

 

If you have read just a few more books you would have found contents of book you are reading lifted straight out of the many books those stories and anecdotes have been circulating for years. Nothing original. Plagiarism... Regurgitated stuff packaged for the average mentally unchallenged story readers... Stool!

 

Thanks for telling your interest in religious Taoism is virtually nil, I won't know what use to make of that.

 

Being 50 means virtually nothing. Neither being 60, 70 or 100. Some people grow old but that does not always mean they necessarily gain insight into anything. Doesn't mean they have to either!

 

There is old saying "An enlightened person has taken more salt than others rice" meaning they have been around very much longer than some younger upstarts and have gained much wisdom.

 

There is also saying "An older person is simply someone who's produced more stool".

 

Don't know if either is academic Taoism or religious Taoism.

 

As for "religious history of the West". What do you mean?

History of the Mayans, Aztecs, Cherokees, Sioux..?

Edited November 28, 2009 by Pandit Tree

[Encephalon]

I think I have to agree with Pietro that it may be too early to wrestle with notions of "western Taoism," and have to agree with Steve F that the subject of Taoism is just too vast to be classified according to the cultures that it participates in.

 

So, is the original question posed by Stig, an exploration of a working definition of "Western Daoism," a sound question? I still have to keep going back to Capra and the deep ecologists, who discover through the western scientific method the truthfulness of what the ancient Taoists detected intuitively. But that is merely drawing parallels between the notions of ecology (and general systems theory) that each tradition has formulated with its unique tools. That leaves out the other disciplines of medicine, meditation, martial arts, arts and philosophy that Taoism has unified into a comprehensive whole. An unwieldy subject, Stigweard.

Edited November 28, 2009 by Blasto

[Stigweard]

[Riyue]

As a tangential exploration of my paper New Gateways For Modern Western Daoists, a friend of mine suggested that a definition of what Western Daoism is would be imperative.

 

I have to agree, even though it's hard enough defining what Eastern Daoism is yet alone the collective result of how the different branches of Daoism have permeated into the west.

 

So, if such a definition was possible, how would you define "Western Daoism"?

 

Eastern Daoism is for me a term collecting all various schools of daojia and daojiao in China, Japan, Korea and all other countries of this part of world.

 

Thus:

 

Western Daoism is for me a term collecting all reflections of eastern Daoism in schools existing in Europe and America and all other countries belonging to the cultural history of these parts of world.

 

Both - eastern and western daoism's goal is for being authentic... - to be a reflection of zi4ran2 自然 - nature itself -...

scriptures, oral transmission can be a help - but they can not replace the experience and application of dao4 道 - zi4ran2 自然 - nature itself -...

in the moment both - eastern and western daoism - approach this goal - we can speak of authentic daoism uniting both.

All schools accept daodejing 道德經 as scripture.

An authentic access ...- an authentic translation of 道德經 reflects the experience of 道.

明 and 昧

進 and 退

夷 and 類

沖道

寂兮寥兮

Edited November 29, 2009 by Riyue