What is your definition of "Western Daoism"?

[Pandit Tree]

[Ya Mu]

Hi Stig,

 

I do not see it as western versus eastern. Taoism is what it is.

 

I think the main differences are the way students learn it. I have seen that it is difficult for many westerners mentally. One reason for this is probably due to conditioned "I want it now" syndrome. I remember teaching a class where, after showing a student an introduction, he exclaimed "This is all there is to it, then." I remember thinking "Yes, for you, this is all there is to it."

[markern]

I don't know much about the particular situation of daoist scholarship and so forth but I do belive that when it comes to the actual practices the west will surpass the east quite fast. I belive this partly because the west aproaches these practices with fresh eyes and that always helps for seing rom for improvement but also because the west brings a freer exchange of information about these practices, more creativity and because we learn more from completly different traditions. Vipassana is already thaught much better many places in the west and innovations such as KAP would have taken much, much longer in the east to arrive. AYP is slowly being improved upon by the free sharing of information between all the students and the teacher in one forum. THetaobums itself has as a collective effort done a lot to figure out how to make the unversial Tao system of mantak chia work more safely and effectively while Chia himself has learnt little. Such things happen in the east as well of course but I belive much much slower.

[Wells]

So, if such a definition was possible, how would you define "Western Daoism"?

The "westernisation" of Taoism is...being able to buy a complete and real taoist system at once for big bucks from a master instead of getting it piece by piece by being a slave to a master for 20 years.

[manitou]

Dorian - Succinct. A bit on the cynical side, but succinct.

Edited November 28, 2009 by manitou

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

If i were going to try to classify Eastern and western Taoism, i would reference Alan Watts.. Watts had an open and curious mind, he was able to translate eastern thought into western dialogue, and.. avoid the fluffy ritual.. the Clarity of Watts let the essence of Taoism shine through the layers of tradition..

 

Aside from that, the division of 'east and west' would be counter to the principles of Tao.. Tao is a unifying principle..

 

Be well..

[林愛偉]

"West" signifies the direction in which the people of that direction live.

"Daoism" signifies the practices of philosophy, energy cultivation and attaining rebirth in the heavens.

 

"Western Daoism" would signify the people of the western direction cultivating the practices within Dao as it is

from China.

 

What needs to be done is simple to address, difficult to apply; To take Daoism of China and place it to the western people, both western culture and Daoist culture will have to compromise a few things such as : Culture and cultural application, personal views, acceptance of a moral/virtue/ethical guideline, and the assimilation of Daoist cultural views to western cultural views while maintaining the foundation of history and culture of Daoist education and practice.

 

Some things will be pushed aside, while other things will be more prevalent. What should be the focus while doing so is the development of a guideline of principles for the Western Daoist cultivator to apply him//herself to.

 

One can not just take a cultural practice and place it in another country without changes on both ends.

 

Success for any type of project with this is dependent on one question: "How much is the cultivator willing to give up?"

 

Peace and Blessings.

Lin

[Pandit Tree]

The "westernisation" of Taoism is...being able to buy a complete and real taoist system at once for big bucks from a master instead of getting it piece by piece by being a slave to a master for 20 years.

 

 

Not always so though.

"Westernisation" often means you pay the first big bucks for the "master" to generate more stuff for which you have to pay still bigger bucks: the updates, the sequels, the prequels, redux, still deeper secrets, seminars, workshops, books, DVDs... and, of course, that fengshuied T-Shirt.

 

Somewhere you become doubtful and you switch to another "master" and you discover he is every bit the same as the last. All claim to have direct link to and sole agency for some masters in the East. Reincarnation certificates prove that.

 

You are a slave to such masters.

 

 

Alternatively, you can get it piece by piece and for 20 years. Along the way, you discover the "master" is a charlatan and you switch to another "master". You find him every bit the same as the last. And the last. At age 102 you discover that either "Western" or "Eastern" they are all (almost always) the same.

 

You are a slave to either kinds of masters.

 

 

One way out would be to work on oneself.

 

Somehow.

 

Laozi or the Buddha didn't rely on books.

 

 

You might not get anywhere.

 

But is there anywhere to get to.

 

You find more often than not the experts the book writers need more guidance than yourself.

(Alan Watts did a great mileage in enlightened words. His spirituality was such than he drank himself to nirvana! Chogyam Trumpa was of the same spiritual mould. He had to be carried in totally pissed to give his sermons. Some say it is not the messenger and all that. But what did the spiritual stuff do for the last person who preached it?)

 

 

There is no master and there is no slave.

There is only work on the mind to do on our own.

 

 

But if one insists on being a donkey -

there will always be someone who will ride you.

 

 

Now, hand over your subscription for my next pile of "learned" words ("my papers") -

I need the money for my next trip to China! I need the cred even though I can't speak the lingo and no one there wants to speak to me even if I do (that's why I resent and blame them!)

Once your check's cleared my blessings will come in the post!

 

 

Meanwhile, stay eager for that clip of me in China riding the white tiger and chasing the dragon... Watch me in that sea of Daoist priests I can't communicate with. (Well, I am of the "Western" brand which is label for those who hardly know any Daoism but still want to be some kind of self-invented "Daoist")

Don't I look the part, though?

Video is $49.99

Edited November 28, 2009 by Pandit Tree

[Stigweard]

What needs to be done is simple to address, difficult to apply; To take Daoism of China and place it to the western people, both western culture and Daoist culture will have to compromise a few things such as : Culture and cultural application, personal views, acceptance of a moral/virtue/ethical guideline, and the assimilation of Daoist cultural views to western cultural views while maintaining the foundation of history and culture of Daoist education and practice.

 

Some things will be pushed aside, while other things will be more prevalent. What should be the focus while doing so is the development of a guideline of principles for the Western Daoist cultivator to apply him//herself to.

 

One can not just take a cultural practice and place it in another country without changes on both ends.

 

Success for any type of project with this is dependent on one question: "How much is the cultivator willing to give up?"

 

Peace and Blessings.

Lin

Well said my friend

 

I agree that such a compromise needs to take place as well. The question of course begs: "What will traditional Daoism be willing to "give up" in order for it to meet the West half-way whilst retaining its essence?" And of course similarly: "What will the Western student be willing to "give up" in order to live according to the essential elements of Daoism?"

 

I believe that the clear articulation of this "mutual compromise" will only be wrought through the sincere engagement of dialogue, like we are doing here, between all parties involved.

[Pandit Tree]

So, Lin. taking on a Chinese name instead of using Leroy "Nasty Boy" MacBeth or Chico "Hitman" Sanchez, Junior III, won't do the trick then?

 

I would retain a martial arts 'hall of fame' mugshot of comics straight out of wrestlers' ads for training club's list of teachers. Macho image, beefy fists, hairy, wide-between-the-eyes, mean-lookin' doods look better than those "eastern promise" of wimp, frail, limp-looking "sick men aof Asia" that is Kung Fu masters of the East! Look at the likes of Yip Man, Lee Shing, Moy Yat, Chan Wah Kiu etc of Wing Chun before their Westernised students came up with their revised images of oversized ice-cream cone, top-heavy, beefy fisted, bound-footed, 3rd-rate low budget Kung Fu movie stunted men mugshots.

 

Looking at the pictures East and West, just who would want to learn from who? Who would want to go to DDJ study classes with those sickly types from the East? Who would believe true skill comes in deceptive product design? Who wouldn't be happy squashed flat in an aircraft seat sitting next to those hunks in them mugshots? Who wouldn't sell their daughters to do cheerleading for those failed football stars? No prize for guessing!

 

We should retain the positive aspects of Western Daoism or Western Buddhism, definitely. Historically, the Chinese were alright with their posters of door gods stuck onto their gates, scaring the living daylight out of little kids. Now they have lost that tradition of publicity and promotion and it is up to us in the West to bring back the essence of instilling fear, worshipping toughness and meaness, and art of projecting power into their lives. Herego scum ego as they say in them no-go areas of Brooklyn!

 

Take a look at your martial arts site mugshots - except for that nerdy lookin' smiler on top, the rest look like alternative lifts and jacks for the heavier replacement parts for heavy trucks! That is, when on other days they do not go and smash up people and property when they collect debts for their loan sharks or do their hits for some Columbian cartels, see Chico in the last mugshot. He be the stand-in for Tarantino's answer to Johnny Woo's death-by-tofu-fist-killer! Hollywood scripts be the DDJ and 'chicken soup' for the backward East!

 

Never in the history of world Daoism or Buddhism or real martial arts have so few done so much for so many! Praise be, Bro!

 

I'll leave out those bits about going' to China to collect certification and blessings and all that! I won't bother, no sireeee! China should come to its knees when it sees those pictures of vertical aircraft-carriers on tiny feet!

 

Pray! O Master Po! Give me the insight from the Garden of Zen and Cellar of Hidden Wisdom so that I may journey to the West to get copy of Triple Kata with the rest of my crew!

 

Amituofo!

 

Peace be, peace be...

[doc benway]

....

One way out would be to work on oneself.

 

Somehow.

 

Laozi or the Buddha didn't rely on books.

You might not get anywhere.

 

But is there anywhere to get to.

....

 

There is no master and there is no slave.

There is only work on the mind to do on our own.

.....

Cool - maybe there is more to you than just bile and bitterness after all.

It's OK, some of us won't think less of you!

 

And do you think it makes any difference at all where you live?

The purpose of a guru is not to enlighten anyone - it is simply to show you how foolish you are in your efforts to try to become something other than you already are.

Most 'gurus' don't realize that, of course, and simply exploit their donkeys. And most people love it!

 

People don't want to wake up. It's much more comfortable to simply follow the conditioned patterns and indulge in the game. And it's very hard work to break out of that programming. It takes enormous energy. And it isn't something you just do once, it is an ongoing effort. Most people just aren't serious enough (or are way too serious, depending on how you look at it).

 

And those that do want to get out need to torture themselves for a very long time, usually, before they realize that it's OK to finally stop because they've been there the whole time.

 

But I don't mean to hijack Stig's thread...

I'll shut up now.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Hi Pandit Tree: Brevity and sarcasm are good companions.. if you understand the history of Chinese Martial Arts, the west simply chose the 'eye candy', robes, incense, and flowery-dance.. there's another side to CMA history, tough, rugged and brutal.. thugs, bandits, smugglers, bodyguards.. this side trained hard and proved themselves constantly, they had to live or die by their skills.. there is only one test that verifies the claims of a Martial Artist.. wisdom determines when you 'take the test'..

 

Be well..

[Pandit Tree]

<<< Cool - maybe there is more to you than just bile and bitterness after all.

It's OK, some of us won't think less of you!

>>>

 

 

What a shame!

I was struggling hard for just the opposite from you lovely people!

Two posts, there's judgement

and fingers are itching for a lynch!

 

What justice, eh?

"Southern"?!!!

 

It be a sad life if I gain anybody's respect/approval.

 

Imagine a whole site of donkeys!

Or worse - gurus!

 

 

There is always more in everybody than "bile and bitterness".

There is never only one trait in anybody.

That would be that "either/or" thinking.

Can lead to dogmatism, fascism...

 

Under goodness, lurks the bad...

two on the same coin... blah

 

 

If you find bile and bitterness in me -

it could just be my fondness for Guinness!

May not be anything else -

condemnable or punishable.

 

I look to the gurus as well as the next bum to guide me out of my erroneous ways but have yet to be cursed with such saviours. I find it is always the case of the glass-eyed leading the one-eyed. I find those slinging mud (like I do) no more less 'holy' than I am, except that they seem to find it very hard to take it when their egos get one tiny tiny scratch. Then those who mirror the 'gurus' start coming in to highlight the very 'sin' in them they condemn of others. They start thinking they are also "attacked". Then some get very worked up! Scary but... What fun!

 

 

Was it Zhuangzi who said "Man who offer service to find rats will always find two rats, and talk about more. He does not see the herd of dancing elephants right in front of his eyes!".

 

Or was it some other "Zi" in China who said that thing about "Man with architectural beam in his eye removing the respect of dust in someone else's...". Sonething like that...

 

Might have been the Zhuangzi of Western Orthodoxy or his gardener's neighbour who said that but I am not an academic of Western Taoism and not here to split hair.

 

I am not a religious Taoist of either Eastern or Western church either.

 

I am here entertaining myself, watching the "happy fish" as I drink, with merry friends, substitutes for Guinness when someone buys.

 

I am just want me to be taobum not intellectual poseur!

I don't run crystal ball gazing soothsaying I Ching service either!

 

 

<<< But I don't mean to hijack Stig's thread... >>>

 

"Ownership of capital/means of production concentrated in hands of few" is it?

 

 

<<< I'll shut up now. >>>

 

It is up to you what you want to do to yourself - No big deal!

Just don't make it look like the world has to be grateful!

[Pandit Tree]

Greetings..

 

Hi Pandit Tree: Brevity and sarcasm are good companions.. if you understand the history of Chinese Martial Arts, the west simply chose the 'eye candy', robes, incense, and flowery-dance.. there's another side to CMA history, tough, rugged and brutal.. thugs, bandits, smugglers, bodyguards.. this side trained hard and proved themselves constantly, they had to live or die by their skills.. there is only one test that verifies the claims of a Martial Artist.. wisdom determines when you 'take the test'..

 

Be well..

 

 

Yeah, may know what you mean. There were also the underground fighters, the revolutionaries, the village defenders, the defenders of the common folks, the promoters of Chinese culture, the promoters of physical culture, the lovers of art...

 

Ma Yongzhen's name immediately comes to mind. The young man whose skill was used by merchants to keep order among labourers and who ended up a defender of them. Generals He Long "of Wudang" and Xu Shiyou "of Shaolin" - may be "commies" to some but were honourable disciples of their masters and deeply respected by the common folks and martial arts community for their great skills used to served their cause. Gu Liuxin of Taiji was an underground fighter, did dangerous work throughout China, even taught Taiji to Ho Chi Minh. Zhao Daoxin of Yiquan was also an underground fighter during the War against Japan and the Civil War. He Yuanjia went round China to collect good martial arts people to form the Jingwu to train students to be ready for war. Highly-skilled masters volunteered for that and other training academies. Many, many others offered service, some lost their lives... all with legendary ability and inspiring character.

 

 

Bounties were placed on the heads of these people. Skill. devotion to their cause, bravery won them the respect for history. There certainly were no 'eye candy', nice robes, belt colours... there were great risks to life which could even extend to their relatives...

 

As for 'test' there actually is none. There is nothing to prove. The old masters say if one does not know where he is at with his skill, he does not himself - he knows nothing.

 

Shame in some quarters this has deteriorated into ranks, titles - Shifu this/that, master, grandmaster... hollow challenges, petty feuds between schools, circus tricks and stunts, mindless showing off, brags...

[doc benway]

What a shame!

I was struggling hard for just the opposite from you lovely people!

No need to state the obvious!

You work too hard.

Relax.

I'm a fan of Guinness myself, as long as it's draft.

Although Macallan's works pretty well too.

Edited November 29, 2009 by steve f

[Pandit Tree]

No need to state the obvious!

You work too hard.

Relax.

I'm a fan of Guinness myself, as long as it's draft.

Although Macallan's works pretty well too.

 

 

You drink Guinness!

Even Macallan!

 

You must be alright!

 

 

I drink overdraft Guinness.

 

Expensive and comes in small cans!

 

 

Celtic School of Western Taosim then?

 

From Boston?

 

Your chief Taoist rabbi must be Iain Paisley then!

 

Him with the Shamrock Ruyi sceptre!

 

 

Can't relax here, I've got to work hard to keep up with your over 1,300 posts!

Edited November 29, 2009 by Pandit Tree

[林愛偉]

I see posts talking about Journey to the West, but does anyone know what the Journey to the West was about? Or did they take the video series at face value, and just soak up the "Daoist Magic" they saw, and believe Buddhism to be weak and without application...?

 

Regardless, the kind of babbling about this and that will not get the job done. Just simply do not rely on a few people to do the work, integrate it into your life.

 

When the west presents statues and architecture, and daily lifestyle in he mannerisms of Daoism of China, and viceverse, then one can say Daoism has anchored itself in the west.

Edited November 29, 2009 by 林愛偉

[dwai]

Well said my friend

 

I agree that such a compromise needs to take place as well. The question of course begs: "What will traditional Daoism be willing to "give up" in order for it to meet the West half-way whilst retaining its essence?" And of course similarly: "What will the Western student be willing to "give up" in order to live according to the essential elements of Daoism?"

 

I believe that the clear articulation of this "mutual compromise" will only be wrought through the sincere engagement of dialogue, like we are doing here, between all parties involved.

 

Stig,

 

This then begs the question, "Why should traditional Daoism have to give anything up?". I know you probably don't intend it in that sense, but that line of questioning smacks of arrogance.

 

There need not be any "mutual compromise". Remember, you are the one who has chosen Daoism. Daoism hasn't chosen you. So all the compromise has to be from your side alone...

 

This overwhelming need to define a "Western" version of every Eastern tradition is not just mind-boggling, but also annoying if I may say so.

 

I have to only present those perversions of Yoga in the West to prove my point...they are NOT authentic, they don't get it, or at least most of those I have seen, especially commercialized by Yoga Journal-type magazines don't.

 

Systems like Yoga, Taoism etc are more than just philosophy or psychosomatic practices. They are also traditions passed on from generation to generation, since thousands of years.

 

Accept these as your own, no one stops you. But why change them? What is the need to do so? Without tradition, these systems are like bodies without consciousness.

 

 

Best,

 

Dwai

[Apech]

Stig,

 

This then begs the question, "Why should traditional Daoism have to give anything up?". I know you probably don't intend it in that sense, but that line of questioning smacks of arrogance.

 

There need not be any "mutual compromise". Remember, you are the one who has chosen Daoism. Daoism hasn't chosen you. So all the compromise has to be from your side alone...

 

This overwhelming need to define a "Western" version of every Eastern tradition is not just mind-boggling, but also annoying if I may say so.

 

I have to only present those perversions of Yoga in the West to prove my point...they are NOT authentic, they don't get it, or at least most of those I have seen, especially commercialized by Yoga Journal-type magazines don't.

 

Systems like Yoga, Taoism etc are more than just philosophy or psychosomatic practices. They are also traditions passed on from generation to generation, since thousands of years.

 

Accept these as your own, no one stops you. But why change them? What is the need to do so? Without tradition, these systems are like bodies without consciousness.

Best,

 

Dwai

 

Dwai,

 

With the greatest respect (and I mean that), I do not agree with your position. Spiritual traditions do change in expression with changes in time, environment and culture. Otherwise human history in this respect would not have so many examples of traditions and schools to draw from. Terrain is one of the most important features which impact on the style and nature of teachings in different countries and times.

 

Of course it is true that authenticity must be protected otherwise all we will have is a New Agey free for all but if, for instance Taoism is to work (if I can use that phrase) in the modern western world then it has to provide understanding and tools to deal with those things that people experience. The teaching needs to be effective in what it does ... and this is not achieved by clinging to ancient trappings.

 

I am not suggesting that the Tao itself is a new Tao, its just the 'ism' that changes.

 

A.

[林愛偉]

Daoism is just a name, firstly. People are too attached to this notion that the "Way" is some non-changing ever present substance. Actually, the Way exists because of the views people have.

 

If this "way" that is supposed to be Daoism didn't need to compromise, then every westerner who chooses to follow it should then adhere to the culture mannerisms of Chinese Daoism, if that be the "Dao" followed, and take vows for practice, read and study the scriptures, cultivate oneself in meditation, vows and service, adopt the clothing of Chinese Daoist culture, read up on Chinese history, learn Chinese, traditional and simplified, and have next to no possessions what so ever. Not every one can do this, therefore it isn't right for everyone to try it that way.

 

When a method of practice (Way) enters a new land, it must conform to the culture of that land in order for the people to be able to recognize it, accept it and practice it. Then the people can investigate the history of that method, and finally incorporate those cultural mannerisms that make sense to them...not just take it for what they see and are told.

 

Another thing that needs to be compromised on the west's side, is all these nonsense books on Daoism. Drop them all, and take Chinese Daoist scriptures and their commentaries, translate them, and read them, propagate proper Daoism...for free.

 

That also doesn't mean go and teach Qigong to any one who wants it either. Nor does it mean that one can charge for Qigong just because some people do, and claim to be immortals...

 

Truthfully, a great big handful of most Qigong systems in the west have only superficial functions. Not every Daoist pratices martial arts, not every Daoist cultivates Qigong in the way most people in the west assume. Many Daoists recite scriptures, do services for the community and live a life of enough.

 

 

Want real Daoism?

 

... in the words of Master Zheng Man Qing when talking about Taiji Quan, "Invest in loss".

 

 

Peace,

Lin

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Daoism is just a name, firstly. People are too attached to this notion that the "Way" is some non-changing ever present substance. Actually, the Way exists because of the views people have.

Tao.. The 'Way'.. the 'way' things 'are'.. and, things are different for many people in many cultures.. Tao is like water, it takes the shape of that which contains it.. mostly, the assorted rituals are humanity's attempts to mold Tao into its preferences and desires, longevity, immortallity, enlightenment, etc..

 

Be well..

[Aetherous]

Tao.. The 'Way'.. the 'way' things 'are'

 

I just want to say that I enjoy your posts, TzuJanLi. Very insightful and knowledgeable.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Many humble thanks, Scotty.. ( i have no idea what i'm doing, you know that, right?)

 

Be well..

[WhiteTiger]

Nice posts Lin.

 

peace,

wt

[Pandit Tree]

I see posts talking about Journey to the West, but does anyone know what the Journey to the West was about? Or did they take the video series at face value, and just soak up the "Daoist Magic" they saw, and believe Buddhism to be weak and without application...?

 

Regardless, the kind of babbling about this and that will not get the job done. Just simply do not rely on a few people to do the work, integrate it into your life.

 

When the west presents statues and architecture, and daily lifestyle in he mannerisms of Daoism of China, and viceverse, then one can say Daoism has anchored itself in the west.

 

 

You see post about Journey but you don't see post about thuggish lookin' doods selling 'toughness' and 'meanness'... Still 'bout that "does anyone know" I would like to take your test -

 

Journey to the West is a satire which includes depicting Buddhism as 'opiate of the masses', monk as a dumbo easy to lose focus of his religion, easy to dupe when he is busy being pious, etc. You have to read the book not talk about the video series as any "value". Buddhism or Taoism is neither strong nor weak or "without application". They are dependent on the people that practise them, the clergy as well as the lay folks. Any old swindler can put on the robes and fool the public. Any 'devotee' can genuinely or self-deceptively recite the sutras until Buddha or Laozi returns. In fact you can teach a parrot to recite "Namo Amituofo" until its kingdom comes but that does not make it a Buddhist! Similarly, eating vegetables does not make one a Buddhist - you can be a vegetarian of the mouth but not of the heart. You can take on Buddhist or Taoist name but that is just a name. You can write a few articles, expound the profundity of the gospels, 'interpret' any old scripture or the Yijing - all intellectual poseurs do that! Ultimately it is the individual who has to do his own work and for himself - and he would probably do a better job making a fool of himself than some bigger fool make that for him!

 

Often 'being' something is just purely decorative, an outer image with nothing to do with actual substance. You can buy the robes and buy the titles but that has nothing to do with the heart. You can babble on about any religion but the actual practice is quite something else altogether. We can always find people who can recite sutras forward and backward, quote from texts, interpret the Yijing etc etc but you can almost always find poseurs among them. We can find same in the martial arts - mere mortals posing as tough gorillas to influence followers to be just like them. All in the name of being better human beings, no doubt... Selling emotional crutches does not help anyone any more than talking the part - acting like some kind of pseudo religious nut with need to save the world, intellectual conman going on and on about the 'depth' of their 'expertise'... 'one-inch' punch of Wing Chun - what does any of these do for the mere individual? Sweet nothing!

 

As for "When the west presents statues and architecture, and daily lifestyle in he mannerisms of Daoism of China, and vice verse, then one can say Daoism has anchored itself in the west.", the Buddha had his mission flourish under a tree. There are forest monastery without roofs all over Asia. There are Taoists who still live in caves... The exact opposite may happen when all the external trappings become the belief - all nice buildings with no faith in the hearts of the admirers of statues and architecture. We can leave out the "mannerisms of Daoism of China" or of anywhere else - where is the Buddhism and Taoism in the first place be they Chinese, "Western" or Brooklyn?