the "base" of taoist meditation/mindfullness?

[Marblehead]

Okay. Awareness. This is a little more difficult.

 

First I will present something from chapter 50 of the TTC by Lao Tzu, Henricks' translation:

 

7. You've no doubt heard of those who are good at holding on to life:

8. When walking through hills, they don't avoid rhinos and tigers;

9. When they go into battle, they don't put on armor or shields;

10. The rhino has no place to probe with its horn;

11. The tiger finds no place to put its claws.

12. And weapons find no place to hold their blades.

13. Now, why is this so?

14. Because there is no place for death in them.

 

And now from Chuang Tzu, Chapter 17 - The Floods Of Autumn, translation Burton Watson:

 

To travel across the water without shrinking from the sea serpent or the dragon - this is the courage of the fisherman. To travel over land without shrinking from the rhinoceros or the tiger - this is the courage of the hunter. To see the bare blades clashing before him and to look upon death as though it were life - this is the courage of the man of ardor (the soldier). To understand that hardship is a matter of fate, that success is a matter of the times, and to face great difficulty without fear - this is the courage of the sage.

 

I have worked these two together in my mind so that the courage of the fisherman, hunter, soldier, and the Sage is a result of awareness. That is, they are aware of their environment therefore there is no reason for fear, this resulting in courage.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Firstly, i accept that i am of 'western' origin.. it is my preference to utilize concepts formulated or reformulated consistent with the 'common' usage of western language.. so, i find the following description of "Awareness", from Wikipedia, to be consistent with my understandings:

 

Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event.

 

Awareness is an attribute of Consciousness, controlled and directed/focused by Consciousness..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

 

Awareness is an attribute of Consciousness, controlled and directed/focused by Consciousness..

 

Be well..

 

I agree although I would not include the word 'focused'.

 

Peace & Love!

[~jK~]

I agree although I would not include the word 'focused'.

 

Peace & Love!

 

MH,

Have you read The Tao of Power?

It gives Lao Tzu's work in 9 perspectives.

http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Power-R-L-Wing/dp/0385196377

See if you can find out who the author, R.L. Wing, is in reality.

[C T]

As the mirror of Consciousness become cleaner, Awareness is heightened - It becomes more aware that it is becoming more aware.

 

The nature of Consciousness itself is Brightness. It is sparkling from before time.

 

Chasing after thoughts is that which dulls the sparkle.

 

Awareness lets you know when you begin to chase after thoughts.

 

Meditation stabilizes this awareness.

 

When awareness is stabilized, the fruits ripen.

 

One way to see if the fruits are ripening is Compassion becoming more spontaneous with time.

 

From Compassion, Love overflows, and therein joy and abundance becomes one's mother and father.

 

We reborn into the True Face that was ours before time, before we experienced physical birth..

 

we return to Brightness.

 

.. .. ..

 

Less than this is not enough.

More than this is unnecessary baggage.

Journey like one with no excess baggage.

Its less taxing this way.

Edited December 10, 2009 by CowTao

[trailmaker]

As the mirror of Consciousness become cleaner, Awareness is heightened - It becomes more aware that it is becoming more aware.

 

The nature of Consciousness itself is Brightness. It is sparkling from before time.

 

Chasing after thoughts is that which dulls the sparkle.

 

Awareness lets you know when you begin to chase after thoughts.

 

Meditation stabilizes this awareness.

 

When awareness is stabilized, the fruits ripen.

 

One way to see if the fruits are ripening is Compassion becoming more spontaneous with time.

 

From Compassion, Love overflows, and therein joy and abundance becomes one's mother and father.

 

We return to the True Face that was ours before we were born.. before time.

 

.. .. ..

 

Less than this is not enough.

More than this is unnecessary baggage.

Journey like one with no excess baggage.

Its less taxing this way.

 

 

fine topic - so fine simplify

[C T]

fine topic - so fine simplify

Very gracious of you T - thank you..

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Ya, I don't know if that's a Buddhist saying but it was certainly what popped into my mind, if it's not a Buddhist sentence then they would do well to pinch it from you and change the last word 'cos it's a good'n

 

 

Okay. Regarding meditation from Chuang Tzu.

 

Section FOUR - IN THE WORLD OF MEN

 

Burton Watson translation:

 

Yen Hui said, "I have nothing more to offer. May I ask the proper way?"

 

"You must fast!" said Confucius. "I will tell you what that means. Do you think it is easy to do anything while you have [a mind]? If you do, Bright Heaven will not sanction you."

 

Yen Hui said, "My family is poor. I haven't drunk wine or eaten any strong foods for several months. So can I be considered as having fasted?"

 

"That is the fasting one does before a sacrifice, not the fasting of the mind."

 

"May I ask what the fasting of the mind is?"

 

Confucius said, "Make your will one! Don't listen with your ears, listen with your mind. No, don't listen with your mind, but listen with your spirit. Listening stops with the ears, the mind stops with recognition, but spirit is empty and waits on all things. The Way gathers in emptiness alone. Emptiness is the fasting of the mind."

 

This is, IMO, the basics of Taoist meditation. This can, and has been, developed into many different practices but I think that the basics is just as good as any other system.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Your seriously hurting my head now, I'm starting to wonder if your deliberately sending me on a Buddhist path or showing me similarities :'Do you think it's easy to do anything when you have a mind?'/'spirit is empty '/'the mind stops with recognition'/'the way gathers in emptiness alone'.

 

I'm pretty sure your'e not Buddhist Marblehead, if I take all the posts of yours that I've read as your Daoist philosophy, but that one........ who's catching who off guard????! This is like a warped game of bizarre un-expectation where both players didn't expect what they quoted or said to be read the way it has been, and certainly didn't expect the other to write it!!!!

 

Ps. Why is Confucius commenting on Daoist practice???

 

 

Okay. Awareness. This is a little more difficult.

 

First I will present something from chapter 50 of the TTC by Lao Tzu, Henricks' translation:

 

7. You've no doubt heard of those who are good at holding on to life:

8. When walking through hills, they don't avoid rhinos and tigers;

9. When they go into battle, they don't put on armor or shields;

10. The rhino has no place to probe with its horn;

11. The tiger finds no place to put its claws.

12. And weapons find no place to hold their blades.

13. Now, why is this so?

14. Because there is no place for death in them.

 

And now from Chuang Tzu, Chapter 17 - The Floods Of Autumn, translation Burton Watson:

 

To travel across the water without shrinking from the sea serpent or the dragon - this is the courage of the fisherman. To travel over land without shrinking from the rhinoceros or the tiger - this is the courage of the hunter. To see the bare blades clashing before him and to look upon death as though it were life - this is the courage of the man of ardor (the soldier). To understand that hardship is a matter of fate, that success is a matter of the times, and to face great difficulty without fear - this is the courage of the sage.

 

I have worked these two together in my mind so that the courage of the fisherman, hunter, soldier, and the Sage is a result of awareness. That is, they are aware of their environment therefore there is no reason for fear, this resulting in courage.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Ok, now I get this, although I interpret it differently. I see this as a certain unawareness, as in the fear(yes, it's seems to go back that way, you did it with the reference to awareness or the environment and education and the snake example you gave, I've been paying attention)that through society is taught and has a place within the individual, but I see it more through a stripping away of that fear, by whatever means, means that the actual situation represented by death or other negative emotion cannot find a place to reside within the individual because they do not even conceive of it anymore, so, they have overcome it. Kind of an energy thing, like hate cannot find a place to reside or effect a person if there is no hate within them.

 

Your getting onto some energy stuff with that one in my view, the higher levels of swordsmanship in ancient China and Japan is based on that quote you've given above. I hate to say it Marblehead but it's a certain kind of emptiness that makes the swordsman undefeatable, an emptiness of the fear of defeat or death, this true nature is everyones true nature, which in my view Daoism seeks to return the individual to.

 

Thanks for fishing out those quotes, they are most interesting...... but I'm still struggling a bit

[Apech]

 

 

And now from Chuang Tzu, Chapter 17 - The Floods Of Autumn, translation Burton Watson:

 

To travel across the water without shrinking from the sea serpent or the dragon - this is the courage of the fisherman. To travel over land without shrinking from the rhinoceros or the tiger - this is the courage of the hunter. To see the bare blades clashing before him and to look upon death as though it were life - this is the courage of the man of ardor (the soldier). To understand that hardship is a matter of fate, that success is a matter of the times, and to face great difficulty without fear - this is the courage of the sage.

 

 

 

I think this means - the fisherman understands that the dangers of the sea are part of fishing ... the traveler that dangers are part of traveling ... and so on ... the Sage understands that when things go badly its just the consequence of circumstances, when they go well then its just the time for things to succeed ... so he is not afraid of difficulty because ultimately its just a consequence of the Way.

 

Not so much awareness as such but more a state of wisdom.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

A7.

[Marblehead]

MH,

Have you read The Tao of Power?

It gives Lao Tzu's work in 9 perspectives.

http://www.amazon.com/Tao-Power-R-L-Wing/dp/0385196377

See if you can find out who the author, R.L. Wing, is in reality.

 

No, I haven't read that.

 

I will agree that the TTC can be viewed from many perspectives. In my posts, except for the quotes, I present my perspective.

 

I looked for a bio on R. L. Wing but couldn't find one. He (?) has many mentions regarding his interpretation of the "I-Ching".

 

Don't know what else to say.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Chasing after thoughts is that which dulls the sparkle.

 

Hi CowTao,

 

That post sounded pretty Buddhist to me. Hehehe. (Not suggesting anything negative by that comment though.)

 

What I quoted above, I feel, is a very important concept though. "Chasing after" implies striving whick in turn implies desires and these concepts are roadblocks against achievements.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

I think this means - the fisherman understands that the dangers of the sea are part of fishing ... the traveler that dangers are part of traveling ... and so on ... the Sage understands that when things go badly its just the consequence of circumstances, when they go well then its just the time for things to succeed ... so he is not afraid of difficulty because ultimately its just a consequence of the Way.

 

Not so much awareness as such but more a state of wisdom.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

A7.

 

I agree with your understanding. And on the surface, from the reading, that is all that need be said. But I looked into it deeper and found that the concept of 'awareness' plays through both quotes.

 

Of course, this is my interpretation so it has become my understanding.

 

But I will even suggest that wisdom is a result of awareness.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Ya, I don't know if that's a Buddhist saying but it was certainly what popped into my mind, if it's not a Buddhist sentence then they would do well to pinch it from you and change the last word 'cos it's a good'n

 

Hehehe. No, I am not a Buddhist. Like I have said many times before, there are many similarities between Buddhism and Taoism at their root level. I do not hold myself responsible for the thoughts that come to my conscious mind - I just present what happens to arise.

 

Your seriously hurting my head now, I'm starting to wonder if your deliberately sending me on a Buddhist path or showing me similarities :'Do you think it's easy to do anything when you have a mind?'/'spirit is empty '/'the mind stops with recognition'/'the way gathers in emptiness alone'.

 

Just similarities showing themselves. I am not intentionally doing it.

 

The mind. Ah, what a beautiful and horrible thing it can be. Yes, I believe that part of meditation is emptying the mind. But we don't go through our every-day life empty-headed! Emptying our mind serves two purposes: it allows room for the spirit of Tao (Oneness) to enter our spirit, and it clears our mind of prejudices, preconceptions, and expectations.

 

This second aspect allows us to live in the 'now' more effectively and also allows us to experience life (in its true nature) more fully.

 

I'm pretty sure your'e not Buddhist Marblehead, if I take all the posts of yours that I've read as your Daoist philosophy, but that one........ who's catching who off guard????! This is like a warped game of bizarre un-expectation where both players didn't expect what they quoted or said to be read the way it has been, and certainly didn't expect the other to write it!!!!

 

Yep, you are correct, I am not Buddhist. That's one of the problems with labels - they place limits. And what you just said is one of the problems with placing expectations on others. When responding to you or anyone else all I can do is type the words that come to my mind. These are my understandings. They might not even make sense to others - I generally expect questions regarding most things I present.

 

Ps. Why is Confucius commenting on Daoist practice???

Ok, now I get this, although I interpret it differently. I see this as a certain unawareness, as in the fear(yes, it's seems to go back that way, you did it with the reference to awareness or the environment and education and the snake example you gave, I've been paying attention)that through society is taught and has a place within the individual, but I see it more through a stripping away of that fear, by whatever means, means that the actual situation represented by death or other negative emotion cannot find a place to reside within the individual because they do not even conceive of it anymore, so, they have overcome it. Kind of an energy thing, like hate cannot find a place to reside or effect a person if there is no hate within them.

 

Chuang Tzu used Confucius as a vehicle for presenting some of his concepts - nothing more.

 

Yes, I know you have been paying attention. Hehehe. That's why you are becoming as confused as I am.

 

And what you said after that is very beautiful.

 

Can we say that knowledge plus awareness equals wisdom?

 

Your getting onto some energy stuff with that one in my view, the higher levels of swordsmanship in ancient China and Japan is based on that quote you've given above. I hate to say it Marblehead but it's a certain kind of emptiness that makes the swordsman undefeatable, an emptiness of the fear of defeat or death, this true nature is everyones true nature, which in my view Daoism seeks to return the individual to.

 

Well, you said that very well. I think I will just leave it without comment.

 

Thanks for fishing out those quotes, they are most interesting...... but I'm still struggling a bit

 

Hey, it's fun for me to get involved in discussions like this. And it is especially good for me to be able to quote the source of my understands of Taoist Philosophy.

 

And BTW, when you stop struggling you will probably be dead so don't worry about the struggle.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

I agree with your understanding. And on the surface, from the reading, that is all that need be said. But I looked into it deeper and found that the concept of 'awareness' plays through both quotes.

 

Of course, this is my interpretation so it has become my understanding.

 

But I will even suggest that wisdom is a result of awareness.

 

Peace & Love!

And i humbly suggest you could be right MH, re. that wisdom is a result of awareness..

 

The way i see it, the sequence, on a gross level, goes something like this -

 

Innocence at birth. Conditioning starts after, as the senses develop. This gives rise to knowledge which

creates a view of separation of self and other, or whats 'mine' and 'not mine'. From this arises delusion

and agitation, that somehow the 'self' is not at ease, so the search to regain wholeness, purity and

Oneness begins. The dramas of life gets played out, where we live for the distractions, the illusions,

the gods, the teachings, some prefer drugs, power, sex, and so on and so forth, and we fill our

lives with all kinds of substitutes, just to ignore the truth, until we finally exhaust ourselves,

only then the actual quest begins. It starts like this:

 

The phase of struggle (roughly described above) is recognized as being futile, and non-productive.

 

The exhausted mind and body wants a rest from over-activity and indulgence. It is tired of all the chasing.

 

From this, the mind begins to settle of its own accord, only because the "Will" has become less forceful.

 

Awareness is born. We begin to get glimpses of the Bright.

 

These glimpses some know as Insights.

 

Meditation promotes the Awareness, so the glimpses/Insights become clearer and more frequent.

 

When Awareness is habituated, the formal practices of meditation can be let go of. One's at ease.

Sustained periods of Awareness is experienced. Some like to label these periods as Mindfulness.

 

From sustained Awareness, Wisdom is born.

 

From Wisdom, Truth is attained.

 

When Truth permeates the Being,

 

One lives only in Brightness.

 

.. .. .. .. .. ..

 

This is my own rough model of a person's spiritual journey, concluded mainly from

personal experience and observation.

 

The first phase generally happens from birth till about 40. The second phase begins after.

However, this is not the rule, as there can be many exceptions.

 

Trust it makes a bit of sense. It's not necessarily Buddhist in any way.

 

All the best to you.

[Marblehead]

This is my own rough model of a person's spiritual journey, concluded mainly from

personal experience and observation.

 

The first phase generally happens from birth till about 40. The second phase begins after.

However, this is not the rule, as there can be many exceptions.

 

Trust it makes a bit of sense. It's not necessarily Buddhist in any way.

 

All the best to you.

 

Well CowTao, I am glad you presented that because I am sure you did a better job at that than I would have. (I have never tried to put my understanding into words.)

 

I do agree with your outline. And I agree that the age of the individual during the process should be only generalized as I think there are some who become 'aware' at a very early age and there are others who never attain that condition.

 

And I agree that mindfulness and awareness cannot be associated with only one particular philosophy as these concepts exist in nearly all philosophies. (Note that I did not use the word 'religion'.)

 

Thanks for sharing that!

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Can we say that knowledge plus awareness equals wisdom?

 

 

I'm not convinced I think it's missing one part....'experience', I have met quite a few knowledgeable people as I'm sure we all have, but I have to say many of them were planks. Not aware in the sense it's being used at the moment. I think if you put experience+knowledge it = awareness/wisdom. But it is their kind of awareness related to their experience and doesn't necessarily go beyond to what I might consider true awareness.

 

Then again, I'm not exactly sure what true awareness might look like, I don't know if I'd know what it was even if it jumped up and poked me in the eye..... but I think it may be way more than a normal kind of wisdom.

 

I've been thinking about this and I think my problem is I'm defining things from my own perspective as opposed to taking something new and seeing it with new eyes. This leads me to a further question, which is: is my awareness in fact limiting in that it relates simply to my personal experience Then I'm gonna go again with the 'surely awareness is more than this' thing. I feel those quotes you gave are really going deeper than just wisdom/knowledge. But..... the problem is that's what I'm seeing from my own biased view..... I'm going round in circles now.

 

I always thought that the Daoist kind of awareness really kind of hints at something way deeper.... indefinable, but a feeling within the sage that is perhaps indescribable in words(that doesn't help matters).

 

So then I guess the question is do you think it's simply wisdom that's being referred to and if so does that not mean every wise person has achieved/become one with the Tao? I will say though that this wisdom that's reffered to does make life easier as it kind of makes more efficient decisions and actions based on the knowledge/experience, and that is very Daoist I would venture.

 

And i humbly suggest you could be right MH, re. that wisdom is a result of awareness..

 

The way i see it, the sequence, on a gross level, goes something like this -

 

Innocence at birth. Conditioning starts after, as the senses develop. This gives rise to knowledge which

creates a view of separation of self and other, or whats 'mine' and 'not mine'. From this arises delusion

and agitation, that somehow the 'self' is not at ease, so the search to regain wholeness, purity and

Oneness begins. The dramas of life gets played out, where we live for the distractions, the illusions,

the gods, the teachings, some prefer drugs, power, sex, and so on and so forth, and we fill our

lives with all kinds of substitutes, just to ignore the truth, until we finally exhaust ourselves,

only then the actual quest begins. It starts like this:

 

 

I like that a lot Cowtao.

 

 

I also have a thought slightly disconnected/connected to what we have been discussing. I've been wondering if in fact Chan Buddhism which became Zen didn't in fact pilfer a great deal of philosophy from Daoism during it's time in China, making it more palatable to the masses, in a somewhat similar way that Christianity built their churches on ancient pagan worship sites in England so that the people were already used to going there to worship, same with the festivals too.

 

Buddhism wasn't instantly popular in China, it took some time for that to happen. What better way than adding a bit of the indigenous words or phrases from their philosophy/religion. I don't know, it's just a thought. I don't know enough about the original Indian Buddhism to make a clear judgement. I know they go different ways, so, Chan Buddhism has kept it's original focus and goal but some of the references are glaring to me. It may just be me though, or I'm reading too much into something

[Marblehead]

I'm not convinced I think it's missing one part....'experience', I have met quite a few knowledgeable people as I'm sure we all have, but I have to say many of them were planks. Not aware in the sense it's being used at the moment. I think if you put experience+knowledge it = awareness/wisdom. But it is their kind of awareness related to their experience and doesn't necessarily go beyond to what I might consider true awareness.

 

Yeah, I generally include 'experience' as a component of knowledge. There are many different ways we acquire knowledge - book learning is one, experience is another, observation is still another. And I agree, there are many who have a vast amount of book learning but totally lack the experience of applying the learning to any useful purpose.

 

Then again, I'm not exactly sure what true awareness might look like, I don't know if I'd know what it was even if it jumped up and poked me in the eye..... but I think it may be way more than a normal kind of wisdom.

 

Agree. We can't really say what awareness or enlightenment look like but we 'feel' it when we 'realize' it.

 

I've been thinking about this and I think my problem is I'm defining things from my own perspective as opposed to taking something new and seeing it with new eyes. This leads me to a further question, which is: is my awareness in fact limiting in that it relates simply to my personal experience Then I'm gonna go again with the 'surely awareness is more than this' thing. I feel those quotes you gave are really going deeper than just wisdom/knowledge. But..... the problem is that's what I'm seeing from my own biased view..... I'm going round in circles now.

 

Ah! Now you have gone back to that other concept we have been discussing here - meditation; that is, clearing one's mind of all bias, prejudices, preconceptions, etc so that we can see again for the first time. Kinda' like being a born-again Taoist following each session of mind-cleansing - opening our eyes and seeing the rose as it truely is for the first time.

 

Yes, there is much greater depth in the Tao Te Ching than ever meets to conscious mind. But then this, I think, is where the significance of the TTC lies for each individual. It won't mean the same thing to everyone because of all the variables in life. I guess it is pretty much up to each of us to find the deeper meanings for ourselves.

 

I always thought that the Daoist kind of awareness really kind of hints at something way deeper.... indefinable, but a feeling within the sage that is perhaps indescribable in words(that doesn't help matters).

 

Yeah, I know. I have never been able to put it into better words than I have already done. I always fall back on my ole saying, "Everything matters but nothing matters." And even this is extremely lacking.

 

So then I guess the question is do you think it's simply wisdom that's being referred to and if so does that not mean every wise person has achieved/become one with the Tao? I will say though that this wisdom that's reffered to does make life easier as it kind of makes more efficient decisions and actions based on the knowledge/experience, and that is very Daoist I would venture.

 

I have no idea how to respond to this. I will agree with your last sentence though. Wisdom does allow us to make better choices in our life and I think that this is very important.

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

To me wisdom means that you have soaked up all the knowledge and experience so that your understanding of things is instinctive or innate. You don't have to think things through. Its more than knowing. Mind you some people seem to be born wise - I suppose this could be explained by previous lives and all that or maybe some people have this extra ability to absorb what's going on.

[Marblehead]

To me wisdom means that you have soaked up all the knowledge and experience so that your understanding of things is instinctive or innate. You don't have to think things through. Its more than knowing. Mind you some people seem to be born wise - I suppose this could be explained by previous lives and all that or maybe some people have this extra ability to absorb what's going on.

 

Hehehe. I'm not going to say anything about your very Buddhist comment there.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

To me wisdom means that you have soaked up all the knowledge and experience so that your understanding of things is instinctive or innate. You don't have to think things through. Its more than knowing. Mind you some people seem to be born wise - I suppose this could be explained by previous lives and all that or maybe some people have this extra ability to absorb what's going on.

 

Surely the understandings arrived at, based on the recollection of past experience and knowledge seems

an inadequate support for the unfolding of Wisdom?

 

I agree its more than knowing. But i think its even more than simply the ability to react instinctively based

on past knowledge and experience.

 

I think Wisdom is the quality borne in a person who has completely let go of all notions, labels, and past

conditionings. It is a kind of rebirth into total sanity, which can only function optimally without further

influences from past experiences.

 

I believe very much that there is a very strong connection between being totally present, being 'here now',

completely, and Wisdom.

 

If one's Being is totally present, there is no platform at all for distractions and discursive thinking to operate

from. Such presence can only be attained by those whose awareness is pervasive and stable. For me,

the logical sequence seems to be - Meditation = Insights = pervasive Awareness = birth of Wisdom

= the beginning of living in Truth.

 

'Being' can only be present in its totality when the fascination with the ego/self can be let go of. So we can

safely assume that where Being is, 'self' is not, and where 'self' is, Being is not. From this, we can also

begin to see a connection between Wisdom, Being, and Selflessness, the last being the ground from which

Compassion is nurtured. All the Bright Sages that have graced the earth were all wise and compassionate.

This may explain the altruistic nature of Wisdom, because the fruits of Wisdom can never be enjoyed alone.

If it can, then that is only a false idea or concept one has of Wisdom.

 

Just some considerations. Feel free to comment please.

 

All the best.

[Apech]

Hehehe. I'm not going to say anything about your very Buddhist comment there.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

You know what they say, you can take the man out of Buddha-nature but you can't take the Buddha-nature out of man.

 

 

 

I think Wisdom is the quality borne in a person who has completely let go of all notions, labels, and past

conditionings. It is a kind of rebirth into total sanity, which can only function optimally without further

influences from past experiences.

 

I believe very much that there is a very strong connection between being totally present, being 'here now',

completely, and Wisdom.

 

If one's Being is totally present, there is no platform at all for distractions and discursive thinking to operate

from. Such presence can only be attained by those whose awareness is pervasive and stable. For me,

the logical sequence seems to be - Meditation = Insights = pervasive Awareness = birth of Wisdom

= the beginning of living in Truth.

 

 

 

Cowtao,

 

I like the way you put this very much. I think that there is a sense that you arrive at wisdom, you become wise. What I would suggest though is that even if this wisdom arises because you have let go of notions and labels - you would first have first had to have taken them up and learned how limited/worthless(?) they are to become wise. You have gone through a process i.e. life ...a journey (to use that over used expression) to arrive at wisdom - even if that wisdom consists in a kind of return to what is your original nature.

 

? Maybe ?

 

A7.

[Marblehead]

Nice last two posts you guys. Very nice input to the discussion.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

You know what they say, you can take the man out of Buddha-nature but you can't take the Buddha-nature out of man.

 

Cowtao,

 

I like the way you put this very much. I think that there is a sense that you arrive at wisdom, you become wise. What I would suggest though is that even if this wisdom arises because you have let go of notions and labels - you would first have first had to have taken them up and learned how limited/worthless(?) they are to become wise. You have gone through a process i.e. life ...a journey (to use that over used expression) to arrive at wisdom - even if that wisdom consists in a kind of return to what is your original nature.

 

? Maybe ?

 

A7.

Thank you A7! Indeed it is a process, a rather painful one, for most of us. Quite unnecessary,

but a 'cross' most have to bear nonetheless. How unfortunate that most of us have to slog our way

on the longest path to find the shortest way home!

 

Please watch this, i think you will like it.. It has a bearing on the cultivation of Wisdom.

One of my favorite contemplations.

 

 

Have a good weekend!

Edited December 11, 2009 by CowTao

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

To me wisdom means that you have soaked up all the knowledge and experience so that your understanding of things is instinctive or innate. You don't have to think things through. Its more than knowing.

 

yes yes yes yes(without commas' 'cos it excites me)

 

That's exactly what I've been looking for. That's what I've been trying to get at but didn't know it. That says it all for me, it really does, that's part of this other kind of awareness, like a 'born again Daoist' as Marblehead put it earlier. A natural kind of flowing, efficiently and effectively acting and reacting to various situations and circumstances due to the many and varied experiences of life, resulting in the beginning with thought/wisdom/awareness as to correct/effective action and yet after some time even those thoughts dropping away and becoming perfect....... instinct.

 

You just hit it right on for me there. Now that's awareness! Daoist awareness......possibly Buddhist too but lets not go there.

 

It reminded me of some direct practice within Ninjutsu(not to go all martial on you or anything), part of the root philosophy of Ninpo is Daoism, now this is expressed as in the beginning learning various set techniques but very soon it goes to the point where with a partner you will practice not knowing what he is exactly going to do, by that point you have usually a certain amount of technique and form, but as this is practiced further and further the mind and body then seems to develop a flow/knowing/awareness of its own. The idea is many thousands of attacks come about but yet cannot really be set/predicted. So this practice teaches the body it's innate combat wisdom/awareness, enabling it to instinctively react in ways that are protective and result in survival and a limitation of possible damage. And it really works.... after some time you find yourself kind of observing the body/mind doing stuff you hadn't even considered. Instinct.

 

What you said right there is this Daoist awareness for me.

 

 

Surely the understandings arrived at, based on the recollection of past experience and knowledge seems

an inadequate support for the unfolding of Wisdom?

 

I agree its more than knowing. But i think its even more than simply the ability to react instinctively based

on past knowledge and experience.

 

I think Wisdom is the quality borne in a person who has completely let go of all notions, labels, and past

conditionings. It is a kind of rebirth into total sanity, which can only function optimally without further

influences from past experiences.

 

 

Is that not the same as A7 is saying? An instinctive knowing...to let go of all notions. labels and 'past conditionings', I'm guessing past conditionings is the main thrust........ but I don't know exactly how that would be truly possible...... which gets me onto the next part I think........

 

 

I believe very much that there is a very strong connection between being totally present, being 'here now',

completely, and Wisdom.

 

If one's Being is totally present, there is no platform at all for distractions and discursive thinking to operate

from. Such presence can only be attained by those whose awareness is pervasive and stable. For me,

the logical sequence seems to be - Meditation = Insights = pervasive Awareness = birth of Wisdom

= the beginning of living in Truth.

 

 

Meditation. I don't think we've established what exactly Daoist meditation is. Can we establish that? Marblehead said it's related to a kind of developing awareness, I myself still think it's something similar to what Tao99 posted related to qietude, which frankly to me looked a lot like Chan/Zen Buddhist meditation. What is the actual A + B = C practice in Daoism, or is there one? Or is it more a form of developing awareness over time as Marblehead said. What is this meditation Cowtao? Apologies if I have missed your thoughts on this earlier, but I'm still not clear on this meditation aspect within Daoism.

 

Edit: fur bood spilling mystics

Edited December 11, 2009 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[gendao]

[C T]

Hello N-M-T!

 

Greetings! I am excited for you that you have connected with A7's wise words! He is one of the Bums

here whose thoughts ought to be taken in and assimilated, as far as me is concerned anyway!

 

Feeling rather sheepish now by having to make this confession - i never studied Taoism ..

It looks abit silly for having adopted the name CowTao, moreover, i have just begun to think that i have

been intruding in here, poking my nose when it should be in the kitchen where it belongs hehe..

So i have to pass on the subject of Taoist meditation i'm afraid, lest i make a fool of myself yet again.

 

As for your allusion that Chan/Zen Buddhism in China/Japan being influenced by Taoism, i would have to

say i concur with this view. Not that i am a Buddhist scholar or anything closely resembling one, its just

my instinct telling me to agree with your observation!

 

Have a great and happy weekend!

Edited December 11, 2009 by CowTao