the "base" of taoist meditation/mindfullness?

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Why in the world would one want to control their emotions? Doing so destroys one's true nature. Same with breathing - when you control it you destroy it (its true nature).

 

Peace & Love!

 

(Hehehe. Just feeling a bit frisky at the moment.)

 

 

I have a genuine question Marblehead, what about negative emotions? Now I don't mean if a person wants to have a bit of a cry or something. I mean how about violence? It's the emotion of anger seeking an expression. Do you recommend allowing yourself to feel that emotion but not acting upon it? And if so might it not just get worse and then suddenly explode? Or what?

 

As we all know your a man much senior in years and experience of, quite possibly/actually death and fear(thats one of your favorite topic, I would be happy if you elaborate). So, I wonder if due to your experiences this gives you the ability to endure certain emotions and contain them whereas others may not be able to do so. You know how it is, when people are younger it's much more difficult, but as they get older many circumstances are relatively meaningless compared to somethings you may have experienced in you own life...so it probably wouldn't have much of an adverse effect on your emotions although when you were younger it might.

 

So I guess my question is basically related to negative emotions, to just feel them or what, and if you do does it not effect you adversely, perhaps leading to certain actions which may not be for the best(for want of a better term). I know 'negative' is just a point of view, but you know what I mean.

 

Anyway, feel free to elaborate a bit 'cos this question is really a bit of a stumper for me, to feel or not to feel....and how far to go with each one...or not(it would be great if you can use some examples from your life, I for one would be well pleased to hear about them).

[Marblehead]

Hi Ninpo,

 

Yes, I understand what you are asking and I feel it is a very important question as regards to maintaining our inner tranquility.

 

I have a genuine question Marblehead, what about negative emotions? Now I don't mean if a person wants to have a bit of a cry or something. I mean how about violence? It's the emotion of anger seeking an expression. Do you recommend allowing yourself to feel that emotion but not acting upon it? And if so might it not just get worse and then suddenly explode? Or what?

 

I will confess right up front that I had a very difficult time with this during my younger years. I was really good (or so I thought) at keeping my emotions hidden from others. I rarely showed my irritation at others when I was wronged. Everyone alway thought I was a really cool-headed person. I rarely got into conflicts with others. And because of this I thought what I was doing was good and in my best interest.

 

True, externally it was good. It kept me out of a lot of trouble with others. But I can tell you this: it caused me to be a mess inside. Anger and hatred was eating me up from the inside out. I was almost never at peace with my Self.

 

I have no idea when the realization hit me, and I actually think it was a process over a period of time, but I realized that I had to let these negative emotions out somehow. As a result I had a lot of soul searching to do. I had to look at all the hatred and anger I was holding inside -determine the cause (if it was because of something I had done or if it was because of someone else) - try my best to understand what and how it happened (trying to find a lesson in the event) and then forgive (in my own mind mostly) whoever was the cause. This was not all that easy because I had to take a lot of the blame.

 

From that point on I decided that I would release my emotions as soon as possible whenever my emotions were stirred. This includes both positive and negative emotions. Something that helped me a lot was a little book by Pema Chodron titled "When Things Fall Apart". (Yes. She is a Buddhist.)

 

Basically, her recommendation is that we should fully feel each emotion we have, whether positive or negative, embrace it (because it is a part of us) then let it go. Most often letting it go requires an overt reaction. (If someone says something that pisses me off I should tell them that what they said pissed me off.)

 

Now true, we shouldn't go punching out everyone who irritates us. We will only end up getting knocked around or maybe even end up in jail. So we have to think fast and rationally and determine what is the best thing for us to do. (Hey, if our boss at work pisses us off we can't be too aggressive else we will be out of a job. So we find another way to release our anger.

 

A favorite tree is good for releasing. We hold the anger until we can get to our favorite tree and then we punch it a couple times. It doesn't take much because our hands start hurting. Hehehe. Then we give the tree a hug and tell it thanks for allowing us to release. The release can be done through active physical exercise as well, running or working out with weights. (This is amazing because it allows us to release and also at times allows us to exceed our normal limits of exercising.)

 

The main point is that we should acknowledge the emotion, allow it to come to full fruit, then release it in a responsible manner. Sometime a direct response is best, othertime an indirect response is better and will prevent worsening the situation.

 

The same thing with positive emotions. If someone does something that causes you a warm and fuzzy feeling, feel the emotion fully, embrace it, then let it go - this can be done by doing something nice for them as soon as you can.

 

We can talk more about this if you or anyone else cares to do so.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Hi Ninpo,

 

Yes, I understand what you are asking and I feel it is a very important question as regards to maintaining our inner tranquility.

I will confess right up front that I had a very difficult time with this during my younger years. I was really good (or so I thought) at keeping my emotions hidden from others. I rarely showed my irritation at others when I was wronged. Everyone alway thought I was a really cool-headed person. I rarely got into conflicts with others. And because of this I thought what I was doing was good and in my best interest.

 

True, externally it was good. It kept me out of a lot of trouble with others. But I can tell you this: it caused me to be a mess inside. Anger and hatred was eating me up from the inside out. I was almost never at peace with my Self.

 

I have no idea when the realization hit me, and I actually think it was a process over a period of time, but I realized that I had to let these negative emotions out somehow. As a result I had a lot of soul searching to do. I had to look at all the hatred and anger I was holding inside -determine the cause (if it was because of something I had done or if it was because of someone else) - try my best to understand what and how it happened (trying to find a lesson in the event) and then forgive (in my own mind mostly) whoever was the cause. This was not all that easy because I had to take a lot of the blame.

 

From that point on I decided that I would release my emotions as soon as possible whenever my emotions were stirred. This includes both positive and negative emotions. Something that helped me a lot was a little book by Pema Chodron titled "When Things Fall Apart". (Yes. She is a Buddhist.)

 

Basically, her recommendation is that we should fully feel each emotion we have, whether positive or negative, embrace it (because it is a part of us) then let it go. Most often letting it go requires an overt reaction. (If someone says something that pisses me off I should tell them that what they said pissed me off.)

 

Now true, we shouldn't go punching out everyone who irritates us. We will only end up getting knocked around or maybe even end up in jail. So we have to think fast and rationally and determine what is the best thing for us to do. (Hey, if our boss at work pisses us off we can't be too aggressive else we will be out of a job. So we find another way to release our anger.

 

A favorite tree is good for releasing. We hold the anger until we can get to our favorite tree and then we punch it a couple times. It doesn't take much because our hands start hurting. Hehehe. Then we give the tree a hug and tell it thanks for allowing us to release. The release can be done through active physical exercise as well, running or working out with weights. (This is amazing because it allows us to release and also at times allows us to exceed our normal limits of exercising.)

 

The main point is that we should acknowledge the emotion, allow it to come to full fruit, then release it in a responsible manner. Sometime a direct response is best, othertime an indirect response is better and will prevent worsening the situation.

 

The same thing with positive emotions. If someone does something that causes you a warm and fuzzy feeling, feel the emotion fully, embrace it, then let it go - this can be done by doing something nice for them as soon as you can.

 

We can talk more about this if you or anyone else cares to do so.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Ya, that's the thing I found too.... to repress or express, neither is so simple, although repression does work for a while, but like you said, it eats away inside when not expressed.

 

I kind of found that in actual fact, the spiritual/personal path, whatever that may be actually hits a point where your'e no longer the socially accepted 'Mr Nice guy', because to face the negative inside, truly face it, is to accept it and become one with it, this means on the odd occasion you will directly tell someone, in no uncertain terms to '**** off', people don't always like you for it, but it seems part of the true self that doesn't care about social mores. Children don't give a damn about social mores, they'll poo in the middle of the room and laugh about peoples reaction. I'm not saying we should all poo in the middle of the room, but I think Taoism 'strips down' rather than 'adds to' if you get my meaning. It's finding the balance between self expression of emotions and societies mores. I think your tree whacking method or releasing it through exercise might just be the middle ground that's needed..... better out than in as they say.

 

I'm never sure if I buy the whole smiling Guru thing, a fully integrated individual must have stripped down at some point and unless he wants to regress the odd negative must come to the surface, and must be expressed to some degree, there are countless stories of Zen masters(not to get all Buddhist on you)who displayed childish actions of chucking stuff at their students, and these were enlightened individuals by all accounts, I know some might say it was a specific lesson, and I'm sure it was, but I think part of the lesson was what you were saying possibly elsewhere, to directly 'be' and 'express' yourself.

 

So, you've told me a really good method for balancing and yet not repressing anger, so what about fear? That's gotta be a different method????

[Marblehead]

so what about fear? That's gotta be a different method????

 

How did you know that 'fear' is another of my pet subjects?

 

I spoke about fear here a while back. Many didn't agree with me but that hasn't changed my mind at all because none of them presented a good counter arguement.

 

Okay. First let me state that it is my understanding that fear is an instinct we are born with. Fear activates the fight or flight response. Mostly this instinct is brought to the fore upon encountering the unknown. This is all good and fine during our early years. It keeps us out of a lot of trouble and possibly death.

 

However, (sure, you knew that was coming) during our process of growing we are instilled by others all types of fears. Religion has always been a good teacher of fears. Governments are also very efficient at instilling fear in the people it governs. Superstitions is another excellent source of fears.

 

All these fears basically tell us that if we do 'such and such' this bad thing (whatever) is going to happen to us. It is a means of control. If we are controlled we are likely not living our life to its fullest and we are likely not being true to our true nature. We end up not doing a lot of things we would like to do during our lifetime because we fear what might happen if the warnings are true.

 

So how do we reduce our fears? Through education! First we deal with the fears that have been taught us by 'authorities'. We find out if the warnings are based on factual information.

 

Example: Most people fear snakes. Okay, first, all snakes are not poisonous. Second, The only time a poisonous snake will bite a human (humans are not pray food for snakes) is when the snake feels threatened. So we don't put ouself in a situation where we cause the snake to think (yes, I believe a snake can think) it is being threatened. So when we are in areas where there are snakes we make a lot of noise so the snake has time to hide and not feel threatened. (Water moccacins don't follow these rules. Hehehe. Just stay away from them!)

 

The point of the example is to express the importance of knowledge. The more we know about the workings of nature the fewer unknowns there will be in our life. The fewer the unknowns the fewer the limits against us living our life to the fullest.

 

Now, I'm not saying that we should ignore our fears. We should pay attention (awareness) to our fears until we have determined if they are valid or not. Yet, this will require a lot of cautious testing. Some folks won't want to take any chances - they will just continue to hold to their fears - just in case. You know, like if you don't believe you won't go to heaven when you die so you pretend you believe and live as a hypocrite most of your life. (Sorry for putting that so bluntly but I have seen the reality of it so many time.)

 

So, bottom line, most fears are a result of worrying about what might happen if ... The only way to test is to challenge the unknown and the fears. With knowledge we can make rational decisions regarding the choices we make in our life.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Fear is the absence of a 'choice' that you 'believe' will solve a particular situation.. "fright', a sudden and unforseen circumstance, should not be considered as fear, fright is a survival instinct..

 

Be well..

[zazaza]

Update: From hypoventillation to hyperventillation

 

Severals days ago, around the time i started this thread,

i decided to control my breath,

because I was sabotaging my breath from happening naturally.

 

I had no clue how quickly i should breath in and out,

so i tried to feel when my body wanted to breath in and out naturally.

 

Even though there was no real fear or stress in me,

i forced the body to start hyperventillating extremely.

 

 

 

The past few days my body automatically had the tendency to hyperventillate.

The only way i am able to to prevent hyperventillation at this moment

is by taking short and shallow breath ins, and having long and relaxed breathouts.

 

I'm not sure if I have some kind of physical problem that is unbalancing my breath,

the results medical bloodtests seem to suggest that i'm perfectly healthy physically.

 

In my case, deep breathing doesn't seem to work very well... maybe because i'm breathing too fast.

 

The "shallow breathing" method which works for me at the moment is talked about below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buteyko_method

Edited December 3, 2009 by zazaza

[Marblehead]

In my case, deep breathing doesn't seem to work very well... maybe because i'm breathing too fast.

 

Yep, another perfect example that we are not all created equal. What works best ofr one person might be the worst thing to do for another. We each must find out what is best of 'us'.

 

Best wishes to you at getting stabalized.

 

Peace & Love!

[~jK~]

Why in the world would one want to control their emotions? Doing so destroys one's true nature. Same with breathing - when you control it you destroy it (its true nature).

 

Peace & Love!

 

(Hehehe. Just feeling a bit frisky at the moment.)

 

Emotions are same as thoughts. Empty mind AKA: Mindfullness Meditation is as it is: Empty mind AKA: Mindfullness Meditation.

Meditation itself has a nature - if we have thoughts - the true nature of meditation & thus its value - is altered in direct relation to the lack of mindfullness.

Enlightenment is a direct result of 100% mindfull meditation after some exercise. (Ever notice how many temples are located in the hills?)

The breathing is not stopped - it is controlled by the belly breath technique. The chest does not rise - the belly does. It is a much more efficent way of breathing.

I lived on this mountain for 2 years - about 15 minuites walk up from this picture - Although - there are 2 walkways - the pictured one is for tourists - the real one is empty of tourists and has 2 park benches to sit and meditate at the right (exercise) time along with a flowing stream by a natural rock formation that is called the Dragon Rock - that has water streaming out of its mouth. To find this path, just stay on the sidewalk to the left. The meditation point also has a blank wall facing the bench - all is about 100 feet from the monestary. It is also a favorite spot for monks to come - some are v-old and carry beads.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

How did you know that 'fear' is another of my pet subjects?

 

I spoke about fear here a while back. Many didn't agree with me but that hasn't changed my mind at all because none of them presented a good counter arguement.

 

Okay. First let me state that it is my understanding that fear is an instinct we are born with. Fear activates the fight or flight response. Mostly this instinct is brought to the fore upon encountering the unknown. This is all good and fine during our early years. It keeps us out of a lot of trouble and possibly death.

 

However, (sure, you knew that was coming) during our process of growing we are instilled by others all types of fears. Religion has always been a good teacher of fears. Governments are also very efficient at instilling fear in the people it governs. Superstitions is another excellent source of fears.

 

All these fears basically tell us that if we do 'such and such' this bad thing (whatever) is going to happen to us. It is a means of control. If we are controlled we are likely not living our life to its fullest and we are likely not being true to our true nature. We end up not doing a lot of things we would like to do during our lifetime because we fear what might happen if the warnings are true.

 

So how do we reduce our fears? Through education! First we deal with the fears that have been taught us by 'authorities'. We find out if the warnings are based on factual information.

 

Example: Most people fear snakes. Okay, first, all snakes are not poisonous. Second, The only time a poisonous snake will bite a human (humans are not pray food for snakes) is when the snake feels threatened. So we don't put ouself in a situation where we cause the snake to think (yes, I believe a snake can think) it is being threatened. So when we are in areas where there are snakes we make a lot of noise so the snake has time to hide and not feel threatened. (Water moccacins don't follow these rules. Hehehe. Just stay away from them!)

 

The point of the example is to express the importance of knowledge. The more we know about the workings of nature the fewer unknowns there will be in our life. The fewer the unknowns the fewer the limits against us living our life to the fullest.

 

Now, I'm not saying that we should ignore our fears. We should pay attention (awareness) to our fears until we have determined if they are valid or not. Yet, this will require a lot of cautious testing. Some folks won't want to take any chances - they will just continue to hold to their fears - just in case. You know, like if you don't believe you won't go to heaven when you die so you pretend you believe and live as a hypocrite most of your life. (Sorry for putting that so bluntly but I have seen the reality of it so many time.)

 

So, bottom line, most fears are a result of worrying about what might happen if ... The only way to test is to challenge the unknown and the fears. With knowledge we can make rational decisions regarding the choices we make in our life.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I see what your saying, ignorance creates fear and education eradicates it, that's true. But I guess the kind of fear I mean is actually in conflict, facing an opponent, violence....that's kind of a different fear, it's sudden and cannot always be prepared for. For example, everyone would like to think that if a certain situation happened they would certainly act, lets take as an example a man seen hitting a woman in public, most people in their own minds would definitely say they would intervene....but, actually, it's impossible to know how you will react until your actually in that situation....sure, everyone will tell you they would act.... but the truth maybe otherwise, even though they don't know it. When the situation occurs many actually freeze.

 

I'm sure you must have seen your fare share of people who were considered brave turning to jelly when the stuff hit the fan, and otherwise someone who in general was not considered much of a specimen turn into some kind of God of war(your gonna have to forgive my silly God of war reference)when it actually came down to it... so, my point kind of is, where's the rhyme or reason, how can fear in confrontation be so random, how can one day it not effect you at all even when the chances of physical damage are far greater than on other days when the chances of damage be much less. Where's the logic, or is there? How to deal with sudden shock fear, fear of bodily harm? I guess that's my question that I didn't make clear Marblehead.

[Marblehead]

 

I lived on this mountain for 2 years ...

 

I am sure I would have loved that walk. It looks so beautiful and your comments amplify what I see in the picture.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

I guess that's my question that I didn't make clear Marblehead.

 

I think your first post included this concept and I probably just didn't address it, for whatever the reason.

 

I will suggest that fear in confrontation is a result of two things; lack of confidence in being able to deal with the situation, and, thoughts of negative things that might happen to us.

 

Recalling the concept of wu wei; the Sage would do whatever needs be done with no alterior motive (and no alterior concerns). That is to say that if something needs be done, for example going to the aid of a woman being assulted by some man, the Sage would (I feel sure about this) confront the man without consideration of anything else, including his own safety.

 

It is understandable that most would not interfer in a violent act if they felt they did not have the ability to end the act. And truthfully, this is very normal and natural. Afterall, self-survival is a very strong instinct. But for others, there would be a call to react (try to stop) in whatever way possible.

 

Of course, avoidance of violence is always best. But if it is unavoidable then whatever needs be done should be done.

 

I suppose it all boils down to knowledge and training, one's abilities and one's confidence in one's abilities. In situations like this it is understandable that there will be a feeling of fear to some degree. But this is not necessarily a negative in that it does get the heart beating faster thereby sending more blood and oxygen to the brain and other parts of the body, especially the muscles.

 

Regarding individuals, I agree, there will always be those who talk big but when it is show time they head for the curtains. And there will always be those who never talk big or make a show of themselves but are always there when they are needed. This has much to do with ego and little to do with abilities.

 

In cases of violence, I really don't think it would be a good idea to control the instinct of fear unless we attain the state of having absolutely nothing to loose no matter what happens to us. There is a difference between having unchecked courage and acting in the most efficient manner. Unchecked courage may allow us to make stupid mistakes.

 

Peace & Love!

 

PS Yes, I suppose I could tell you some war stories but I really don't want to get into stuff like that.

[sherab]

 

 

PS Yes, I suppose I could tell you some war stories but I really don't want to get into stuff like that.

War stories are fun only if you're in the Military... No one else understands, truly.

 

I'm willing to listen.

[Marblehead]

War stories are fun only if you're in the Military... No one else understands, truly.

 

I'm willing to listen.

 

Thanks for the encouragement but I think I'll pass. Hehehe.

 

I prefer talking about peace & love here. (I'm not even a member of my local VFW.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I think your first post included this concept and I probably just didn't address it, for whatever the reason.

 

I will suggest that fear in confrontation is a result of two things; lack of confidence in being able to deal with the situation, and, thoughts of negative things that might happen to us.

 

Recalling the concept of wu wei; the Sage would do whatever needs be done with no alterior motive (and no alterior concerns). That is to say that if something needs be done, for example going to the aid of a woman being assulted by some man, the Sage would (I feel sure about this) confront the man without consideration of anything else, including his own safety.

 

It is understandable that most would not interfer in a violent act if they felt they did not have the ability to end the act. And truthfully, this is very normal and natural. Afterall, self-survival is a very strong instinct. But for others, there would be a call to react (try to stop) in whatever way possible.

 

Of course, avoidance of violence is always best. But if it is unavoidable then whatever needs be done should be done.

 

I suppose it all boils down to knowledge and training, one's abilities and one's confidence in one's abilities. In situations like this it is understandable that there will be a feeling of fear to some degree. But this is not necessarily a negative in that it does get the heart beating faster thereby sending more blood and oxygen to the brain and other parts of the body, especially the muscles.

 

Regarding individuals, I agree, there will always be those who talk big but when it is show time they head for the curtains. And there will always be those who never talk big or make a show of themselves but are always there when they are needed. This has much to do with ego and little to do with abilities.

 

In cases of violence, I really don't think it would be a good idea to control the instinct of fear unless we attain the state of having absolutely nothing to loose no matter what happens to us. There is a difference between having unchecked courage and acting in the most efficient manner. Unchecked courage may allow us to make stupid mistakes.

 

Peace & Love!

 

PS Yes, I suppose I could tell you some war stories but I really don't want to get into stuff like that.

 

 

Well Marblehead...... your answer kind of throws me two ways a bit so I've thought about it for a bit:blink: The sage reference and the part about it not being a good idea to control the instinct. These two parts make it a bit difficult for me to kind of come to a conclusion in my own mind(that's my problem by the way, not a problem with your explanation).

 

I can agree that it's probably not a good idea to control the fear instinct, but it doesn't stop me wanting to (the problem with my own lack of wisdom I would suggest). I find it most annoying on occasions where by all my logical views there is nothing to fear, and a high possibility of no resulting damage, yet still fear, unreasonably kicks in; It's like I mentioned before, there have been other times where the possibility of physical damage is far greater, yet sometimes that hasn't bothered me in the least, and I have come away unscathed(relatively). So, this kind of goes back to the 'where's the logic to fear' question. I understand it's a survival instinct, yet as a survival instinct it can be too strong, and I might add, sometimes misplaced. I do agree with the training aspect, but it still seems to have a logic all of it's own, if it can indeed be called logic. I can't fathom it.......having just read a part of your post again I more clearly noticed your reference to fear sending blood and oxygen to the brain and muscles, so I guess that's part of it, but it doesn't quite explain the levels of fear to me, it doesn't always seem in proportion to the actual situation.

 

As for the sage would intervene I'm not so sure...... is it wise to? I have been involved in that exact situation before and I after having intervened 5 minutes later they were going at it again, partially it seemed to be the female goading the male to do something. Kind of made me wished I hadn't bothered actually. Domestics are a bit of a nightmare really. I've known others who have gotten involved only ending up with the female trying to scratch the guys eyes out who had just saved her from a beating! I think the sage might well keep walking unless he hears the word "Help!", It might be wise to, not socially acceptable or preferable perhaps, but the sage should be beyond that(or should he?). Is it the sages' job to protect life? Or does the sage view everything in a detached manner regarding it as some kind of natural order of things....not natural in the normal view of things but in a sages' wider perspective? I don't know, I'm confused about it myself. I think we've stumbled into a difficult area.

 

ps. I wasn't angling for a war story, only the wisdom gained from the experiences

[Marblehead]

Hi Ninpo,

 

I have disregarded the first part of your post because I can go not further with it. Anything beyond what we have discussed goes into the personal area and as I cannot see into your subconscious it would be useless for me to try to speak from your perspective.

 

ps. I wasn't angling for a war story, only the wisdom gained from the experiences

Good. Hehehe.

 

As for the sage would intervene I'm not so sure...... is it wise to? I have been involved in that exact situation before and I after having intervened 5 minutes later they were going at it again, partially it seemed to be the female goading the male to do something. Kind of made me wished I hadn't bothered actually. Domestics are a bit of a nightmare really. I've known others who have gotten involved only ending up with the female trying to scratch the guys eyes out who had just saved her from a beating! I think the sage might well keep walking unless he hears the word "Help!", It might be wise to, not socially acceptable or preferable perhaps, but the sage should be beyond that(or should he?). Is it the sages' job to protect life? Or does the sage view everything in a detached manner regarding it as some kind of natural order of things....not natural in the normal view of things but in a sages' wider perspective? I don't know, I'm confused about it myself. I think we've stumbled into a difficult area.

 

This, however, I think I can speak a little more on.

 

Please understand that when I suggest that the Sage would get involved I am also stating the understanding that he/she has determined that involvement is the best thing to do.

 

In making that determination we understand that the Sage is fully aware of what is happening. You referred to domestic violence. This type of violence is the worst kind to get involved in because there is a good chance that both combatants will turn on you.

 

And an example, if one of the combatants has a firearm and you are at a distance it would be suicide to approach if you were unarmed.

 

There is a story where a Sage is sitting by a river in the city and a disciple comes running up and says that there is an Army invading the city. The Sage says nothing. The disciple says, "Aren't you going to do anything?" The Sage replies, "What could I do against an Army? Better to stay alive than to be killed." A couple days later the disciple again comes running up and says to the Sage, "Our Army is forcing the invaders out of the city." The Sage says nothing. The disciple ask, "Aren't you going to do anything?" The Sage replies, "What help would I be to the Army? Better to stay alive than to be killed."

 

Point being, there is a time to get involved and there is a time to just remain and stay alive. Only through full awareness will wu wei be able to play itself out in our life.

 

Fear should never be a factor in our decision but it will be in many cases, especially when we are unsure of all the facts. The unknown can be pretty scarey sometimes, especially if we were raised in an environment where there were a lot of superstitions of any kind. (I will include religion in with that word superstition.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Please understand that when I suggest that the Sage would get involved I am also stating the understanding that he/she has determined that involvement is the best thing to do.

 

 

Well, I think you answered the whole sage thing right there.

 

 

There is a story where a Sage is sitting by a river in the city and a disciple comes running up and says that there is an Army invading the city. The Sage says nothing. The disciple says, "Aren't you going to do anything?" The Sage replies, "What could I do against an Army? Better to stay alive than to be killed." A couple days later the disciple again comes running up and says to the Sage, "Our Army is forcing the invaders out of the city." The Sage says nothing. The disciple ask, "Aren't you going to do anything?" The Sage replies, "What help would I be to the Army? Better to stay alive than to be killed."

 

 

Funnily enough there was a quote I was thinking of in relation to the sage issue and in general It's one I have really found to be true and your quote just reminded me of it. I don't know where it's from exactly, it is supposed to be Daoist and relates to the concept of wuwei: "If you sit beside the river long enough you will watch your enemies float by". The meaning being incorrect action results in their own demise, so no action is required in the grand scheme of things. When I first read it some years ago I didn't quite understand it, but over the years I've really seen that one in operation. That quote for me has been one of the most useful in my life(when I can live up to it not easy some times )

[Marblehead]

That quote for me has been one of the most useful in my life(when I can live up to it not easy some times )

 

Funny. Caused me to laugh. That's because that shoe fits me so very well. Knowing and doing are oftentimes two very different things. That's mostly because of ego, of course, but we still need that ego to help us stay alive.

 

So where do we go from here with our discussion of Taoist meditation and mindfulness?

 

Peace & Love!

[33865_1494798762]

Why in the world would one want to control their emotions? Doing so destroys one's true nature. Same with breathing - when you control it you destroy it (its true nature).

 

Peace & Love!

 

(Hehehe. Just feeling a bit frisky at the moment.)

Agee. But it is a bit like fighting a fire with fire.

 

In order to get sick we also manipulate very much with our breating, so look at it as a counter strike.

 

Breating serves as a bridge between mind and body. By experiencing breathing we can learn quite a few things about our nature, among others that feelings are ever changing, that they only stay with us a litle longer by our own effort, and that that will not last for very long. So we can also experience that a thought can not co-exist with an other thought, and so it is with feelings.

So not only does mind and body control our breathing, but we can also control mind and body by breathing. But is it nessary - no, not necessarily. No matter what we do or think, we are always what we are, we can not do anything to be what we are, anyway.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Guest

[33865_1494798762]

Edited December 8, 2009 by Guest

[Marblehead]

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

So where do we go from here with our discussion of Taoist meditation and mindfulness?

 

Peace & Love!

 

I think it was Tao99 that posted a rather good quote from a text 500 odd years old, about the practice 'quietude', as the only actual known Daoist meditation practice(written about in Daoist texts that is, from a long time ago). It was nice and simple, which is nice for me as anything more complex only seems to confuse me, being simple minded myself, a simpleton, simplistic..... in other words stupid.

 

As for 'mindfulness' I haven't got a clue as to what that is supposed to be or how to proceed with that. Is mindfulness something like when someone says "Oh, by the way, mind the step on the way out", usually after you've already fallen flat on your face, or what? So I suppose something like "oh, watch out for the Tao, it's flowing!" would be the equivalent.

 

What is mindfulness, is it simply holding Daoist precepts at the forefront of your mind or have I missed something somewhere(quite likely I would postulate).

 

By the way, I have created my own signature based on your sign off signature, I will probably only use it once or I'll get in a lot of trouble, here it is:

 

Love a Piece!

[Marblehead]

I think it was Tao99 that posted a rather good quote from a text 500 odd years old, about the practice 'quietude', as the only actual known Daoist meditation practice(written about in Daoist texts that is, from a long time ago). It was nice and simple, which is nice for me as anything more complex only seems to confuse me, being simple minded myself, a simpleton, simplistic..... in other words stupid.

 

As for 'mindfulness' I haven't got a clue as to what that is supposed to be or how to proceed with that. Is mindfulness something like when someone says "Oh, by the way, mind the step on the way out", usually after you've already fallen flat on your face, or what? So I suppose something like "oh, watch out for the Tao, it's flowing!" would be the equivalent.

 

What is mindfulness, is it simply holding Daoist precepts at the forefront of your mind or have I missed something somewhere(quite likely I would postulate).

 

By the way, I have created my own signature based on your sign off signature, I will probably only use it once or I'll get in a lot of trouble, here it is:

 

Love a Piece!

 

Hehehe. Yes, I love a piece now and then myself. (Now we both are going to get in trouble. Hehehe.)

 

Anyhow, to the subject(s) at hand.

 

Mindfulness: I feel that the words 'mindfulness' and 'awareness' are synonymous. There is another thread concerning this subject but I will state my understanding of the word 'awareness' here none-the-less. Awareness is knowing ourself; knowing how we 'feel' about 'things' and knowing our capabilities and capacities. Awareness also includes being conscious of our surroundings at all times.

 

Chuang Tzu told a little story about awareness and I will try to find it if you (or anyone else) are interested.

 

Meditation: Actually, there is at least one section of Chuang Tzu that describes what I would call a guide to meditation. Again, if you or anyone else is interested I will find the passage and quote it.

 

But, because I hold both concepts of meditation and awareness in high regard I will suggest that they are very important for people like myself as well as all other types of Taoists.

 

(In my opinion, meditation is the prelude to attaining awareness in many regards.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Mindfulness: I feel that the words 'mindfulness' and 'awareness' are synonymous. There is another thread concerning this subject but I will state my understanding of the word 'awareness' here none-the-less. Awareness is knowing ourself; knowing how we 'feel' about 'things' and knowing our capabilities and capacities. Awareness also includes being conscious of our surroundings at all times.

 

Chuang Tzu told a little story about awareness and I will try to find it if you (or anyone else) are interested.

 

 

I am.

 

 

Meditation: Actually, there is at least one section of Chuang Tzu that describes what I would call a guide to meditation. Again, if you or anyone else is interested I will find the passage and quote it.

 

 

You big tease.

 

 

(In my opinion, meditation is the prelude to attaining awareness in many regards.)

 

 

'Meditation is the prelude to attaining awareness' ...... Marblehead.... that sounds an awful lot like a Buddhist 'Meditation is the prelude to attaining enlightenment' kind of sentence but with different words. How is it different? Is it different, I don't mean to go all renegade Buddhist or anything but I really have no idea what the difference may be. 'Awareness' is quite the broad term....I mean I'm aware of my foot right now but that's not saying much.

 

I think that quote is gonna come in useful

[Marblehead]

 

'Meditation is the prelude to attaining awareness' ...... Marblehead.... that sounds an awful lot like a Buddhist 'Meditation is the prelude to attaining enlightenment' kind of sentence but with different words. How is it different? Is it different, I don't mean to go all renegade Buddhist or anything but I really have no idea what the difference may be. 'Awareness' is quite the broad term....I mean I'm aware of my foot right now but that's not saying much.

 

I think that quote is gonna come in useful

 

You caught me off guard with that. I had no intention of paraphrasing anyone. But then I was reading Buddhist stuff twenty-five years ago so I just don't know if something became conscious from my lost memories.

 

I think we all know that I will be one of the first to point out that there are significant differences between Buddhism and Taoism. However, there are many similarities as well. Of course, there are many similarities between most philosophies so the connection between Buddhism and Taoism is not unigue.

 

I will stand by what I said though and insist that it is a thought that I processed from reading Chuang Tzu and not copied from some other philosophy.

 

Anyhow, you indicated that you were interested in what Chuang Tzu had to say about meditation and awareness so I will do my research and get back.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Okay. Regarding meditation from Chuang Tzu.

 

Section FOUR - IN THE WORLD OF MEN

 

Burton Watson translation:

 

Yen Hui said, "I have nothing more to offer. May I ask the proper way?"

 

"You must fast!" said Confucius. "I will tell you what that means. Do you think it is easy to do anything while you have [a mind]? If you do, Bright Heaven will not sanction you."

 

Yen Hui said, "My family is poor. I haven't drunk wine or eaten any strong foods for several months. So can I be considered as having fasted?"

 

"That is the fasting one does before a sacrifice, not the fasting of the mind."

 

"May I ask what the fasting of the mind is?"

 

Confucius said, "Make your will one! Don't listen with your ears, listen with your mind. No, don't listen with your mind, but listen with your spirit. Listening stops with the ears, the mind stops with recognition, but spirit is empty and waits on all things. The Way gathers in emptiness alone. Emptiness is the fasting of the mind."

 

This is, IMO, the basics of Taoist meditation. This can, and has been, developed into many different practices but I think that the basics is just as good as any other system.

 

Peace & Love!