The practice of separating reality from illusion

[Pietro]

Dear Lin,

in the other thread you mentioned about a certain practice:

 

...

As you've apparently never undergone the practice of separating reality from illusion, I can understand how from your point of view, it's all the same.

...

 

Can you tell us more about it?

 

Where is it coming from, how is it done. What are its steps, and signs of a succesful outcome? What can go wrong, and what should be done if it happens... and so on.

 

It looks like a very useful practice.

 

As Harry Frankfurt puts it in his essay or truth:

truth is important to survive and to remain alive.

 

Thank you very much,

Pietro

[33865_1494798762]

Dear Lin,

in the other thread you mentioned about a certain practice:

Can you tell us more about it?

 

Where is it coming from, how is it done. What are its steps, and signs of a succesful outcome? What can go wrong, and what should be done if it happens... and so on.

 

It looks like a very useful practice.

 

As Harry Frankfurt puts it in his essay or truth:

truth is important to survive and to remain alive.

 

Thank you very much,

Pietro

A permanent reality is a dream, an illusion. Getting lost is what we do while being looking for the reality.

Edited November 30, 2009 by Guest

[Marblehead]

Dear Lin,

in the other thread you mentioned about a certain practice:

 

As you've apparently never undergone the practice of separating reality from illusion, I can understand how from your point of view, it's all the same.

 

 

This could be a very interesting discussion. I hope Lin sees this thread and responds.

 

Peace & Love!

[宁]

Darn good topic!

[Taomeow]

Indeed.

My all-time favorite description of "the practice of separating reality from illusion" has been given in a poem I reproduce below.

 

 

Monologue for an Onion

by Suji Kwock Kim

 

 

I don't mean to make you cry.

I mean nothing, but this has not kept you

From peeling away my body, layer by layer,

 

The tears clouding your eyes as the table fills

With husks, cut flesh, all the debris of pursuit.

Poor deluded human: you seek my heart.

 

Hunt all you want. Beneath each skin of mine

Lies another skin: I am pure onion--pure union

Of outside and in, surface and secret core.

 

Look at you, chopping and weeping. Idiot.

Is this the way you go through life, your mind

A stopless knife, driven by your fantasy of truth,

 

Of lasting union--slashing away skin after skin

From things, ruin and tears your only signs

Of progress? Enough is enough.

 

You must not grieve that the world is glimpsed

Through veils. How else can it be seen?

How will you rip away the veil of the eye, the veil

 

That you are, you who want to grasp the heart

Of things, hungry to know where meaning

Lies. Taste what you hold in your hands: onion-juice,

 

Yellow peels, my stinging shreds. You are the one

In pieces. Whatever you meant to love, in meaning to

You changed yourself: you are not who you are,

 

Your soul cut moment to moment by a blade

Of fresh desire, the ground sown with abandoned skins.

And at your inmost circle, what? A core that is

 

Not one. Poor fool, you are divided at the heart,

Lost in its maze of chambers, blood, and love,

A heart that will one day beat you to death.

Edited November 29, 2009 by Taomeow

[Smile]

Would any method to observe the reality as is fall into this category? Like in Vipassana you observe passing sensations and thoughts that eventually go away. As you go deeper, you encounter the deep layers of yourself of this and other lifetimes. The deeper you go, the more layers peel away of "reality" that makes "you" until there is nothing left.

 

The result of this type of practice is that you just look at things hapenning as they are, all their underlying hidden forces that drive them to be, without employing the rational mind. They call it Wisdom Eye besides other names.

[Taomeow]

Would any method to observe the reality as is fall into this category? Like in Vipassana you observe passing sensations and thoughts that eventually go away. As you go deeper, you encounter the deep layers of yourself of this and other lifetimes. The deeper you go, the more layers peel away of "reality" that makes "you" until there is nothing left.

 

The result of this type of practice is that you just look at things hapenning as they are, all their underlying hidden forces that drive them to be, without employing the rational mind. They call it Wisdom Eye besides other names.

 

They should call it Wisdom Teeth instead. You need to grow them at one point -- that's how you mature -- and then you use them to tear things apart, separating this from that, reality from illusion, in particular. But then you grow some more and age as you go till your Wisdom Teeth decay from the effort and get pulled and leave you either toothless (reality) or with dentures, implants, veneers (illusion) --

and you carry your inability to "separate reality from illusion" in your very own mouth but you don't notice... because you are not looking inside your every real-unreal tooth to see the joke... This inability is always hidden, whatever layer you're looking at is a layer that prevents you from seeing the next one, and if you get to the next one, this too is a veil.

 

I know it for a fact. Reality herself, cara madre mia, SHE showed me how she is arranged, made of layers upon layers of unreality all the way through, there's no penetrating anywhere where it isn't so because it is so everywhere and every-when.

[Marblehead]

Indeed.

My all-time favorite description of "the practice of separating reality from illusion" has been given in a poem I reproduce below.

 

What a beautiful poem! Thanks for sharing that!

 

Peace & Love!

[林愛偉]

Dear Lin,

in the other thread you mentioned about a certain practice:

Can you tell us more about it?

 

Where is it coming from, how is it done. What are its steps, and signs of a succesful outcome? What can go wrong, and what should be done if it happens... and so on.

 

It looks like a very useful practice.

 

As Harry Frankfurt puts it in his essay or truth:

truth is important to survive and to remain alive.

 

Thank you very much,

Pietro

 

Hi There!

 

That is the member "Song Yong Dao" who mentioned that.

 

Peace.

Edited November 30, 2009 by 林愛偉

[宁]

Taomeow,

are you familliar with the difference between 有and 是 ? if so, can you comment a bit on your view on it?

respectfully,

L1

 

PS: there's not a day that passes by, that i don't wonder why does it not matter how close one is to a legit environment to cultivate the Dao... someone may be as close as skin, and as far as heaven from earth... bewildering, intriguing, wonder of wonders... (not reffering to anyone here:)

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

The problem begins by separating 'truth' into 'reality and illusion'.. even the illusion is real..

 

Be well..

[Marblehead]

... even the illusion is real..

 

Be well..

 

Okay fella'! Stop trying to confuse me. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Ya Mu]

Here is my take:

 

Day 0 - we know a good deal about reality and illusion.

Day 1 to Day NOW - Our society has helped us create filters through which we can try to discern. But after this happens all we try to discern is illusion UNTIL we burn through those filters. As long as the mind is involved the filters will flourish. Raising the vibration rate of the energy body will help burn through the filters. Once we have raised the vibration rate then we have to stop the world, connect with our Higher Level self, and practice listening before we can actually separate illusion from reality.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Reality and illusion are only comparative concepts when we talk about experience.

 

Yes, peel the illusion piece by piece and there is nothing there. So why call it reality or illusion?

 

 

There is Truth and ignorance. And Truth is what existence is and ignorance is believing otherwise. You can't experience or NOT experience the Truth. For then Truth would be conditional and therefore would not be the Way.

[C T]

An apple.

 

Really?

 

Yes. Have a bite.. its very sweet, really juicy. And red too.

 

Really?

 

Yes. Have a bite..

 

Has it been washed?

 

Yes. Have a bite..

 

Did you wash it, or you just said that to pacify me?

 

Yes, i washed it myself. Have a bite..

 

Really?

 

Yes, have a bite.. its delicious!

 

Really delicious? Have you tried it?

 

No, i havent tried it, but it looks really really delicious.. Now have a bite..

 

If you havent tried it, how do you know its really, really delicious?

 

Well, it looks really ripe and juicy, and red. All the hallmarks of a delicious apple..

 

Well, if its that delicious, why dont you have it?

 

WILL YOU JUST SHUT UP AND EAT THE GODDAMN APPLE??!!

 

Well, if i shut up, i wont be able to eat the apple, will i?

 

Man, just eat the bloody apple.. i swear to god it was fresher before we started this yo-yo conversation about this goddamn apple..

 

Really?

 

(Disgusted, Man with the 'really sweet, juicy red apple' then throws the apple over to the dog, who devours apple in 3 seconds flat.)

 

Why did you do that? Now we wont know if the apple was all you made it out to be..

 

Does it matter?

 

'Course it matters. If it did not, i would not have bothered asking you all those questions about the apple, now, would i?

 

Yep, i guess it mattered all right. But it dont make no difference now. It aint here no more. The dog got it.

 

Its all your fault, throwing such a lovely, juicy apple to the dog. I could have enjoyed that apple.. damn.

 

Bet it was sweet too..

 

Yeah, bet it was..

 

Yeah..

 

.......

 

 

Was the apple real? Was it real while it was being debated over, or did it become 'real' in their minds only after the dog had eaten it? And did the apple become any less real after being eaten by the pooch? Or was it still very real in the minds of these two apple debaters? Where did the apple go after it had been eaten? Did the apple disappear then? Or did it simply transform into another reality?

 

For these two jokers, the quality of that 'real' apple is as good as an illusion. It would have been otherwise had they just bitten into it, without any fuss.

 

.......

 

Note - If you want to taste the apple (of Reality), you simply just bite it. Talking aint tasting..

[Pietro]

Hi There!

 

That is the member "Song Yuan Dao" who mentioned that.

 

Peace.

 

oh, sorry.

[Marblehead]

There is Truth and ignorance. And Truth is what existence is and ignorance is believing otherwise. You can't experience or NOT experience the Truth. For then Truth would be conditional and therefore would not be the Way.

 

That is an interesting concept.

 

Would you be willing to say that Truth does not include illusions or delusions?

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Well, I was going to comment but after reading this:

 

 

Note - If you want to taste the apple (of Reality), you simply just bite it. Talking aint tasting..

 

I have nothing to say.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

oh, sorry.

 

Hehehe. No sorry, Okay? You got a really nice thread and discussion going.

 

Peace & Love!

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Was the apple real?

Of course it was, but.. now you are manipulating mental images and memories, mind-play..

 

Someone plunges an icecicle through your hand, the icecicle melts.. was it 'real'? I'm thinkin' your wounded and bleeding hand will suggest that it was..

 

Be well..

[33865_1494798762]

Greetings..

Of course it was, but.. now you are manipulating mental images and memories, mind-play..

 

Someone plunges an icecicle through your hand, the icecicle melts.. was it 'real'? I'm thinkin' your wounded and bleeding hand will suggest that it was..

 

Be well..

It is the "I" that is the illusion, so neither the hand or the icecicle really belonged to you, the way it seemed.

(where were you?)

Now you have changed dramatically, along with the hand and isecicle. The eager, prout one is now in paine.

 

The truth is nothing but movement, catch it and you will destroy it.

Can you live with that?

Edited November 30, 2009 by Guest

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

It is the "I" that is the illusion

How utterly sad.. given this gift of tangible existence and you dismiss it as 'illusion'.. that same "I" is no less real than than the Cosmos itself, no less real than the Source from which it flows..

 

Be well..

[Pietro]

Hehehe. No sorry, Okay? You got a really nice thread and discussion going.

 

Yeah, the blind leading the blind.

 

Look MH, I am sorry.

 

Because my aim was to ask directions from someone who might have something to say.

Not to hug each other in a delusion contest on who is more confused.

 

People who think illusions and reality are the same are effectively claiming that sex and masturbation are the same. Eating and imagining to eat are the same. Killing and reading a spy novel are the same. Pissing and dreaming about pissing are the same. Luckily their body is smarter, or they would wake up every morning in a wet patch.

 

There definitely are practices to separate illusion from reality in Taoism, and I suspect also in Buddhism (maybe even more so!). But of course the mental person will find all excuses to deny them. Until they fall into the real pit.

 

And then they cry, and come back here.

[Marblehead]

And then they cry, and come back here.

 

Funny. True, but funny.

 

Peace & Love!

[C T]

 

 

 

Here's a talk given by a prominent Tibetan teacher, Sogyal Rinpoche, that has some bearing on this topic. Very clear English. Worth a listen i think.

[doc benway]

Edited November 30, 2009 by steve f

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Why sad? It is not that there is no existence, it is that "I" is not a separate entity trapped in a bag of skin.

It only feels like that. The sense of an "I" is the illusion. The existence is real.

Hi Steve F: Of course there's a very real "I", your sense of your 'real "I" just replied to the previous post.. Taoists are not fond of 'illusionary' activity, hence the practice of understanding the 'real I' in relationship to its 'real' environment.. That "I" IS a sparate entity, AND it is wholly unified with the Cosmos, simultaneously..

 

Be well...