What type of Daoist are you? -- Part 1

[Maddie]

I finally answered this poll. I guess I consider myself the third category of self cultivation. I do find Taoist philosphy interesting but my main focus is working on my "issues" which I suppose would come to no supprise to anyone who has read a few of my posts. Yet I see how the two can not really be totally divorced from each other cause the philisophical part has a big influence on the practice part, and the practice part puts the philisophical aspect in to practical use.

[Marblehead]

Yet I see how the two can not really be totally divorced from each other cause the philisophical part has a big influence on the practice part, and the practice part puts the philisophical aspect in to practical use.

 

Yep.

 

Thanks for voting.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

Or, to make it easier, replace the word Taoist with your preferred word, just in your mind, mind you, and tell us what type of "....ist" you feel you are.

 

But let's try to keep it within Taoist context. Do you think you can handle that?

 

Yes, yes... so sorry.

 

I would be all 3.

 

Within the -ist of my well known relation.

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, I had to go back and check the thread title - I got confused. I think we may need a hermetically sealed dependent origination thread so we don't get leakage.

 

:lol:

[Apech]

 

[Everything]

See, Masters are as old as time, maybe older. All hunter-gatherer tribes had a Master, a shaman -- all of them, without a known exception. He or she (earlier in history, invariably She, for hundreds of thousands of years) transmitted the Way to the whole tribe in one shape and form, and to his/her successor in another. Shamans were professionals doing their job, and still are, wherever they still live. I've met them in far-away, very marginally civilized places, and I know that they are the most dedicated of all professionals I've ever met, more at one with their skill and knowledge and practice than any engineer, doctor, writer, priest or plumber. Their lineage students, ditto.

 

So are taoists. Whoever is not doing the job of a taoist is not a taoist. Whoever is doing it poorly, just going through the motions, is not a taoist either. It's really much simpler than all the discussions around or about the issue. To be a plumber, you do the plumber's work, and you do it so that the pipes don't leak anymore. You can't be a plumber in your head. You can't be a plumber just because you could fix the toilet if you felt like it. You are called to fix the toilet and come and fix it, that's a plumber. You are called to do a taoist's job, you go ahead and do it, that's a taoist. There's only one kind. A taoist who does a taoist's work is a taoist. The rest is tao of the mouth.

 

So the real question is, what is the taoist's job description? What does a taoist actually do? not "think" or "believe" or "prove" or "disprove" but "do." Not "go" or "not go" with the flow or against it (many a taoist goes against the flow, mind you... this is the level of expertise above plumber, this is rocket science of taoism and rocket scientists go against the flow). But -- what does a taoist do that maikes him or her a taoist?

 

The -ism and -ist are not bogeymen by the way. They are merely Latin suffixes showing affiliation, interpenetration, connection, association, is all. A violinist does have to play the violin. Just going with the flow doesn't make it play. A physicist does have to do physics -- even though we live in a physical world, just the mere fact doesn't turn one into a physicist. Now with tao it's like this... it's mystery of mysteries. If you don't professionally do mystery of mysteries, you are not a taoist. "Sorry kid... you do have talent, but you seem to be waiting for something..." as the Prophet said to Neo, causing him to stop "just going with the flow" and start "going against the flow." Turning him into a taoist, effectively.

 

Are you saying you became more action prone and it got the better out of you? Only you said it like it is the best thing that happened to you on this planet, lol.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Everything

[Everything]

I voted for literati Taoist, never heard of these descriptions so far. Feels nice to have a tag finally. Before this I was just a human.

 

Thanks for vote descriptions.

[Everything]

Greetings..

 

Of the selections, i feel like i might be a mix of the first and last selection, but.. find the ritualistic and codified versions to inspire disonance in my understandings.. overall, though, i am a curious being that tends to avoid labels.. i simply find that Taoism, in its interesting variations, most closely appeoximates my understandings and experiences of Life..

 

Be well..

 

Hehe, hey there. We all know nothing is what its named. I'm not going to judge you, because that would emmediatly put a label on you, and I know you don't like. Thanks for heads up!

 

Want my advice? Don't avoid labels all together. I can see your mysterious nature, you will one day teach without words. For now, just understand that words are just labels and symbols that are relative to each person. Just open your eyes to how everyone, including you, use those symbols/labels in your communication, just like you put labels on your self. You can only go uphill from there dude. Even Einstein used symbols and labels like "god" to define the concept of "everything." All symbols. Who know, you might be Einstein! If you want the best language, the most abstract, I must say it is mathematics. Hard to be misunderstood if you can speak mathematical, lol. Too bad no one speaks that language.

[Taomeow]

Are you saying you became more action prone and it got the better out of you? Only you said it like it is the best thing that happened to you on this planet, lol.

 

Well, I'm still me, quite a bit lazier than an average taoist should be.

 

But everything taoist I do is deeply satisfying. If it fails to satisfy, it means I'm not doing it enough, or not doing it properly, or not doing it at all. Once I do it, it's wonderful. Anything -- study, meditation, taiji, ritual, magic, qigong, divination, feng shui, astrology, TCM, deep contemplation, mindless wu-wei, mindful wu-wei, wei-wu-wei, new practices learned from new teachers, old practices revisited, art pieces identified as metaphors of taoist ideas, food prepared nutritiously and deliciously with Wuxing and yin-yang principles in mind, sacred geometry of Hetu and Luoshu caressing my intellect, guasha and moxa and acupuncture and herbs taking care of any physical problems I run into, spiritual hustlers and emotional vampires failing to get more than the uppermost surface of my attention while the bulk of my awareness remains where I'd chosen to place it, moving a heavy piece of furniture (it, 300 lb, me, 135 lb, I win -- using taiji skills), traveling in peace because the dates are chosen from taoist almanachs... well, pretty much every day I have something taoist to do and be thankful for being able to do it this way.

 

Does this answer your question?

[Stigweard]

Well, I'm still me, quite a bit lazier than an average taoist should be.

 

But everything taoist I do is deeply satisfying. If it fails to satisfy, it means I'm not doing it enough, or not doing it properly, or not doing it at all. Once I do it, it's wonderful. Anything -- study, meditation, taiji, ritual, magic, qigong, divination, feng shui, astrology, TCM, deep contemplation, mindless wu-wei, mindful wu-wei, wei-wu-wei, new practices learned from new teachers, old practices revisited, art pieces identified as metaphors of taoist ideas, food prepared nutritiously and deliciously with Wuxing and yin-yang principles in mind, sacred geometry of Hetu and Luoshu caressing my intellect, guasha and moxa and acupuncture and herbs taking care of any physical problems I run into, spiritual hustlers and emotional vampires failing to get more than the uppermost surface of my attention while the bulk of my awareness remains where I'd chosen to place it, moving a heavy piece of furniture (it, 300 lb, me, 135 lb, I win -- using taiji skills), traveling in peace because the dates are chosen from taoist almanachs... well, pretty much every day I have something taoist to do and be thankful for being able to do it this way.

 

Does this answer your question?

Ahh the classic Taomeow post that I have grown to love so much. Thank you!

 

[Taomeow]

Ahh the classic Taomeow post that I have grown to love so much. Thank you!

 

 

Thank you for your generosity.

[Everything]

Well, I'm still me, quite a bit lazier than an average taoist should be.

 

But everything taoist I do is deeply satisfying. If it fails to satisfy, it means I'm not doing it enough, or not doing it properly, or not doing it at all. Once I do it, it's wonderful. Anything -- study, meditation, taiji, ritual, magic, qigong, divination, feng shui, astrology, TCM, deep contemplation, mindless wu-wei, mindful wu-wei, wei-wu-wei, new practices learned from new teachers, old practices revisited, art pieces identified as metaphors of taoist ideas, food prepared nutritiously and deliciously with Wuxing and yin-yang principles in mind, sacred geometry of Hetu and Luoshu caressing my intellect, guasha and moxa and acupuncture and herbs taking care of any physical problems I run into, spiritual hustlers and emotional vampires failing to get more than the uppermost surface of my attention while the bulk of my awareness remains where I'd chosen to place it, moving a heavy piece of furniture (it, 300 lb, me, 135 lb, I win -- using taiji skills), traveling in peace because the dates are chosen from taoist almanachs... well, pretty much every day I have something taoist to do and be thankful for being able to do it this way.

 

Does this answer your question?

Hell yeah, you nurture it like you mean it!

[manitou]

 

But -- what does a taoist do that maikes him or her a taoist?

 

 

My thoughts here are that a taoist ultimately becomes capable of bending the light.

[strawdog65]

 

 

So the real question is, what is the taoist's job description? What does a taoist actually do? not "think" or "believe" or "prove" or "disprove" but "do." Not "go" or "not go" with the flow or against it (many a taoist goes against the flow, mind you... this is the level of expertise above plumber, this is rocket science of taoism and rocket scientists go against the flow). But -- what does a taoist do that maikes him or her a taoist?

 

 

Tao contains us all.

 

I do not believe labels of any kind serve a purpose

other than to further separate a group into smaller

groups. Does this not in fact act as a dividing force?

Feeding our need to be special or "above others", to me

this is contrary to the Way of the sage.

 

"He who knows, he knows not, is wise...follow him."

 

I Accept being who I am as naturally as I am able,

with the knowledge that I am able to grow to be more.

 

I think the "practice" of a Taoist nature is something

I would not describe as work. For me it is about emptying

my cup of wrong thinking, to make room for what is

true intrinsically, and exists in nature all around us.

 

Is it necessary to do anything, to be at one with Tao?

 

How is opening to the Way, really work?

 

Yes it is something that requires effort and being present.

But to classify who is really a Taoist by the measure

of how many years they have "worked" in the Way, or dividing

Taoist's into different levels of progress on the Way, only

seems to to me to serve the vanity that is our

self/consciousness, and amounts to little good.

 

If when born, children are more at one with Tao,

then you and I are right now, are we not attempting to

cast away the nonsense of the learning thrust upon us,

and let in that which has always been our unseen

companion from the very start?

A returning...RE- Awakening.

 

If it is our natural longing to return to our true source,

I would compare it to a type of migration to which we know

not where we are going, But are compelled to do so anyway.

 

Peace and understanding.

Edited November 21, 2010 by strawdog65

[Taomeow]

I do not believe labels of any kind serve a purpose

other than to further separate a group into smaller

groups.

 

I have a bottle labeled "vitamin C" in my cabinet, and another one labeled "arsenic." The purpose of the labels if to keep me alive.

 

My cat caught a mouse the other day. Tao has labeled my cat "cat" and the mouse, "mouse." That's why the mouse didn't eat my cat.

 

When I asked a Chinese taoist authority about the most striking differences he discerns between Western and Chinese taoist thinking, he said, "Western thinking is too metaphysical."

 

Does this not in fact act as a dividing force?

Feeding our need to be special or "above others", to me

this is contrary to the Way of the sage.

 

A taoist, generally, doesn't work on being "above others," nor "below." To be above others, one has to be a "specialist." A taoist is a generalist, which is "below" a specialist in human society. A taoist generalist is, however, someone capable of anything. Any-thing. That's not "above average." That's so far beyond "average" that no comparison is possible. How do you compare a successful lawyer to a spring?.. The taoist sage is so general, so inclusive of any and all "labels" while being exclusive of any one of them in particular, that she is much more like the latter... is the spring "above" or "below?" -- who can tell?.. "The sage comes like the spring, benefitting all beings."

[strawdog65]

I have a bottle labeled "vitamin C" in my cabinet, and another one labeled "arsenic." The purpose of the labels if to keep me alive.

 

My cat caught a mouse the other day. Tao has labeled my cat "cat" and the mouse, "mouse." That's why the mouse didn't eat my cat.

 

When I asked a Chinese taoist authority about the most striking differences he discerns between Western and Chinese taoist thinking, he said, "Western thinking is too metaphysical."

 

 

 

A taoist, generally, doesn't work on being "above others," nor "below." To be above others, one has to be a "specialist." A taoist is a generalist, which is "below" a specialist in human society. A taoist generalist is, however, someone capable of anything. Any-thing. That's not "above average." That's so far beyond "average" that no comparison is possible. How do you compare a successful lawyer to a spring?.. The taoist sage is so general, so inclusive of any and all "labels" while being exclusive of any one of them in particular, that she is much more like the latter... is the spring "above" or "below?" -- who can tell?.. "The sage comes like the spring, benefitting all beings."

 

Taomeow, thank you for your interesting and energetic input!

 

I humbly lower myself to your worldly experience.

 

I can gather that you are a very experienced individual,

with great insight and much to contribute, from your travels

and the depth of learning you have attained in the Tao.

 

I am only a man with no formal training in the Tao.

I have only the trials of my life, as a reference point

to draw from, and those are of no significance.

 

I seek not, to compare any-thing in the world of man to

the world of nature...as you said, no comparison is possible.

Even then...poetic license is unavoidable.

 

I seek not, to change labels with your cat nor the hapless mouse.

 

I do seek, to not be judged however, by any-one's label...

whether perceived to be of value or not to the human mind.

 

Peace and understanding to you.

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

From the "complete works of Lao Tzu".

Translated by Hua-ching Ni

 

 

Tao Teh Ching : Fouty-seven

 

 

------------------------------------

 

 

 

Without going out of your door,

 

you can know the ways of the world.

 

Without looking through your window,

 

you can see the way of heaven.

 

The farther you go, the less you know.

 

Thus, one of deep virtue knows without going,

 

sees without looking,

 

and accomplishes without doing.

[Taomeow]

 

I do seek, to not be judged however, by any-one's label...

whether perceived to be of value or not to the human mind.

 

That's a noble pursuit, far as I'm concerned. Labels are useful for as long as we don't equate the label with the contents of the bottle... If I want to see a "doctor," and get a "nurse practitioner" instead, I object... I want someone labeled as paid for. But it doesn't mean the "doctor" is a better human being than the "nurse practitioner," or a better "father," or a better "tennis player," or a better "painter," or a better "blood-type match." Labels are local. Humans are not. I salute your non-local pursuits... my point simply being, there's no need to abandon local ones in their name. They have their local usefulness. I am a "taoist," not a "Catholic," and this "partial" label helps me identify what I do or don't do with my local time... which is useful in many "local" space-time situations, including a crusade -- something a taoist has never engaged in.

 

 

Without going out of your door,

 

you can know the ways of the world.

 

Without looking through your window,

 

you can see the way of heaven.

 

The farther you go, the less you know.

 

Thus, one of deep virtue knows without going,

 

sees without looking,

 

and accomplishes without doing.

 

This was written before TVs and computers... These days, without going out the door, you can know the ways of the world as filtered through syndicated media... not exactly the same as walking those ways. Without looking through your window, you are usually stuck with Windows... not exactly the way of heaven, last I checked...

 

...so, listen to the sage, but don't forget you have two thousand years of interesting times on him... and don't be too humble, billions of people worked for two thousand years to give you what Laozi never had! Could he travel from China to the US in under one day? Nope. Could I travel from the US to China in under one day? Yup. Would he if he could? Based on a long tradition of "wandering taoists," I bet he would!

[strawdog65]

 

 

Labels are useful for as long as we don't equate the label with the contents of the bottle...

 

...so, listen to the sage, but don't forget you have two thousand years of interesting times on him... and don't be too humble, billions of people worked for two thousand years to give you what Laozi never had! Could he travel from China to the US in under one day? Nope. Could I travel from the US to China in under one day? Yup. Would he if he could? Based on a long tradition of "wandering taoists," I bet he would!

 

 

Taomeow, thank's for the elucidation.

 

I appreciate the depth of your knowledge and experience.

I took a look at part of your blog on going to china...I must

say I am envious of that. It must have been an eye opener of

grand proportion!

 

I do accept the label of trying to understand the Tao, as a Taoist.

Whatever that may be considered to be...

 

I look forward to learning and discussing openly with you

more of what it is to be a Taoist.

I am open to the knowledge that you are willing to share with this forum,

and will try to learn from all that you impart with an open mind.

 

Thanks for your understanding and patience ...Peace!

[mYTHmAKER]

.

Edited November 27, 2010 by mYTHmAKER

[Marblehead]

You need to know.

 

You are showing your age with the words to that song! I'm not even THAT old!

[mYTHmAKER]

You are showing your age with the words to that song! I'm not even THAT old!

 

What song? Never heard of it.

[manitou]

[Marblehead]

What song? Never heard of it.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dny_JDlwGFM&feature=related

 

Enjoy.

[mYTHmAKER]

I'd say this song dates Mythmaker even further back.

 

When we talk about not having to leave one's house to know the world, I'm not sure talk of TV and instant communications is what is at issue. The way I interpret it, if one goes inside, does the inner work, comes to "Know Thyself" (as a famous Christian mystic said), one will know the insides of everyone, as ourselves. It is from this perspective that we know the world; or at least, all the people in the world. Our insides are one and the truth can be seen or triangulated if your own house is in order.

 

True but what has this got to do with my poem.

I propose we add a new term to our calendar B.M. Before mYTHmAKER

[Marblehead]