I've seen some Fa Jin, but this?

[Eternal_Student]

Now what the heck?

 

I have seen internal demos before, but this looks awesome. Very little physical movement, large shearing effect on the feet plus qi compression in the objects spine. Does not look like the fake examples with the student being the only participant. The first one has very large men looking very surprised. The second video has the participant looking scared to have it done to him again!

 

I want to hear experiences and opinions.

How is this happening?

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHCJjKjwMk

 

[WhiteTiger]

Nice Videos.

 

I'm not impressed.

Than again I'm not claiming I've been around more than 3 or 4 teachers that show that sort of stuff.

 

peace,

wt

 

P.S. I believe in martial arts there is more than just fighting. Which each one can be displayed for its different purposes. I.E. showing Empty Force as a way to fight with martial prowess or how the art can be healing arts revitalizing different parts of the humans abilities.

[mouse]

Michael Phillips from the first video has got good clean Jin and is the real deal.

 

You can see him isolate the Jin (the bomb) from the compression of the structure in the Demo where there is the barest contact on him.

 

I would say go look him up and try if you live close. You will be hard pressed to find a teacher that are 1) open in teaching the why and how of doing Taiji and 2) that have got it.

 

Enjoy your practice!

 

mouse

 

 

Now what the heck?

 

I have seen internal demos before, but this looks awesome. Very little physical movement, large shearing effect on the feet plus qi compression in the objects spine. Does not look like the fake examples with the student being the only participant. The first one has very large men looking very surprised. The second video has the participant looking scared to have it done to him again!

 

I want to hear experiences and opinions.

How is this happening?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CHCJjKjwMk

 

[WhiteTiger]

Michael Phillips from the first video has got good clean Jin and is the real deal.

 

You can see him isolate the Jin (the bomb) from the compression of the structure in the Demo where there is the barest contact on him.

 

I would say go look him up and try if you live close. You will be hard pressed to find a teacher that are 1) open in teaching the why and how of doing Taiji and 2) that have got it.

 

Enjoy your practice!

 

mouse

 

I will have to agree with mouse here.

By me saying I'm not impressed I didn't mean you should go around finding much much better. As I mentioned before I only know 3 or so people whom do such stuff and even then I would only say two of them teach it and maybe only one of them teach it openly.

 

So just to clearly state that I agree with mouse. If Michael Phillip lives around you teaching that openly by all means learn as much as you can.

 

peace,

wt

Edited December 1, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[Biff]

Agree with Mouse also.. for shizzle.

[Prince...]

Michael Phillips from the first video has got good clean Jin and is the real deal.

 

You can see him isolate the Jin (the bomb) from the compression of the structure in the Demo where there is the barest contact on him.

 

I would say go look him up and try if you live close. You will be hard pressed to find a teacher that are 1) open in teaching the why and how of doing Taiji and 2) that have got it.

 

Enjoy your practice!

 

mouse

 

Saw the "Check him out if you live close" part and was like uhh...okay where is he? Seminar was hosted in El Paso, Mr. Phillips is in Tucson. I have family in Phoenix, so I'm hoping he's still teaching when I get a chance to get out to AZ. He will also be hosting a seminar at that same school in El Paso on 19 DEC, I believe.

[mouse]

Saw the "Check him out if you live close" part and was like uhh...okay where is he? Seminar was hosted in El Paso, Mr. Phillips is in Tucson. I have family in Phoenix, so I'm hoping he's still teaching when I get a chance to get out to AZ. He will also be hosting a seminar at that same school in El Paso on 19 DEC, I believe.

 

 

Believe that class in Tucson is for Ray's students. You may want to try messaging Ray on the youtube channel where the video was posted.

 

I believe Michael Phillips also has a inner door disciple, Kelly Graham, that will be conducting a seminar for foundational training for internal art disciples.

 

Details below.

 

http://ucbprogram.com/intensive-intro-internal-kung-fu

 

Enjoy your practice,

mouse

[doc benway]

Neither video shows anything special.

Fajin simply means short, explosive force.

Both videos show that - that's a relatively easy skill to develop.

The reason they look impressive to the uninitiated is that the subjects are resisting.

Look at the elbows of Michael Phillips' subjects. You can see them subtly tense the elbow.

At times they are nearly pushing themselves off, at other times he is just taking advantage of their stiffness and "bouncing" them. It's a drill we practice regularly.

There is an extremely simple way to neutralize this - simply absorb the energy, don't tense the elbow.

Then it is completely dissipated. The only trick is timing.

A skillful Taiji player can cause you to tense, then take advantage of that in many different ways - that is exactly what you're seeing in the videos.

These are useful skills in Taiji application and also impressive parlor tricks.

It's not magic.

[Eternal_Student]

I have spoke with Phillips on the phone and through email. He is a generally an approachable guy.

The only thing that didn't sit well with me was one small comment, "you will never figure it out".

Now, I am a rather intelligent individual, and this took me by surprise. I truly believe, that most of this stuff can be figured out through time and practice. I mean, how did the other ancients figure it out, they were human too. A lot of my current teaching is based entirely on what I have discovered through repetitious training. Its the nature of things to evolve through time and training...

 

I understand the tensing of the joints. I can reproduce these effects with people who are super tense quite easily.

But the thing that struck me was the lack of tension and physical motion associated with some of the effects.

Another example of the Phillips technique is on this video.

 

[adam mizner]

hi

what Michael is saying is correct. the method must be given and trained correctly, "you will never figure it out".

 

metta

adam

 

 

I have spoke with Phillips on the phone and through email. He is a generally an approachable guy.

The only thing that didn't sit well with me was one small comment, "you will never figure it out".

Now, I am a rather intelligent individual, and this took me by surprise. I truly believe, that most of this stuff can be figured out through time and practice. I mean, how did the other ancients figure it out, they were human too. A lot of my current teaching is based entirely on what I have discovered through repetitious training. Its the nature of things to evolve through time and training...

 

I understand the tensing of the joints. I can reproduce these effects with people who are super tense quite easily.

But the thing that struck me was the lack of tension and physical motion associated with some of the effects.

Another example of the Phillips technique is on this video.

 

[minkus]

My teacher told me the same. Its given.

[Eternal_Student]

My teacher told me the same. Its given.

 

 

Cmon peeps, don't give your power over so soon. Keep believing that you can, and you will.

Stop believing, and you have created your own limitation.

 

See, he wants people to figure it out. Unlike many traditional teachers I have known...

 

http://ucbprogram.com/node/193

[goldisheavy]

Neither video shows anything special.

Fajin simply means short, explosive force.

Both videos show that - that's a relatively easy skill to develop.

The reason they look impressive to the uninitiated is that the subjects are resisting.

Look at the elbows of Michael Phillips' subjects. You can see them subtly tense the elbow.

At times they are nearly pushing themselves off, at other times he is just taking advantage of their stiffness and "bouncing" them. It's a drill we practice regularly.

There is an extremely simple way to neutralize this - simply absorb the energy, don't tense the elbow.

Then it is completely dissipated. The only trick is timing.

A skillful Taiji player can cause you to tense, then take advantage of that in many different ways - that is exactly what you're seeing in the videos.

These are useful skills in Taiji application and also impressive parlor tricks.

It's not magic.

 

Steve,

 

How about when he asked the person to touch him just barely with the fingertips? Do you think he could take advantage of tension in the other person through a gentle and soft touch like that? Why wouldn't the fingertips absorb the force?

[doc benway]

Steve,

 

How about when he asked the person to touch him just barely with the fingertips? Do you think he could take advantage of tension in the other person through a gentle and soft touch like that?

I don't think so, I know so. You're seeing it with your own eyes in that video.

 

Why wouldn't the fingertips absorb the force?

Watch very closely. There is easily enough tension. Light touch does not mean being flexible or having the ability to yield. I can touch someone very lightly and remain quite rigid, that's much easier than remaining song - song takes a lot of practice. The force comes quickly and without a relatively high degree of skill the opponent's natural reaction is tension. That tension can then be exploited. I'm not saying it's easy, it does take practice. And the yielding also takes considerable training. It's just not anything magical. There is no magic energy being expressed other than the sensitivity, coordination, timing, and proper posture that is the foundation of good taiji and fajin. Those qualities in and of themselves are quite magical in my mind but that is different than the imagined invisible Qi force that opportunists pretend exists and that people who aren't satisfied with honest, hard work over time imagine.

 

There is no magic in Taiji. We all have the same potential.

I do believe it can be figured out - someone figured it out at some point, didn't they?

On the other hand, it is much easier to learn under the guidance of a credible teacher.

It is simply a matter of timing, sensitivity, coordination, and diligent, correct practice.

 

Another name my teacher likes for Fajin is 'coordination power'.

Short force is more literal but 'coordination power' gives a much better idea for what's going on.

[Prince...]

Believe that class in Tucson is for Ray's students. You may want to try messaging Ray on the youtube channel where the video was posted.

 

I believe Michael Phillips also has a inner door disciple, Kelly Graham, that will be conducting a seminar for foundational training for internal art disciples.

 

Details below.

 

http://ucbprogram.com/intensive-intro-internal-kung-fu

 

Enjoy your practice,

mouse

 

Ray's school is in El Paso. Michael Phillips says in another video that he teaches in Tucson. Kelly Graham also has a Tucson phone number listed at the bottom of the link you provided. The video I saw was from 2008, so if you know that Phillips is teaching somewhere else, let me know. I seriously plan to drop by and pay him a visit when I have a chance.

 

For those of you saying "this stuff is simple, anyone can learn it." My teacher has not yet showed me anything like this and his teacher is Yang Jun-- the head of Yang Family Taiji. My teacher's taiji is very good. He can show and demonstrate combat applications with any posture, but he says up front that he cannot do stuff like Mr. Phillips is demonstrating. Yang Jun on the other hand, well, I have heard some interesting stories about his skills-- and I do not know if he teaches everything.

 

Edit: Just found his website :http://michael-phillips.net

 

Michael Phillips, who began his training in New York City in 1971, has been teaching T'ai Chi Chuan since 1977. He currently resides in San Diego, California and is available for workshops In Tai Chi and Qigong for corporate and private groups throughout the US, Canada and Europe. Please email Mr. Phillips for further information.

 

even better, I'm hoping to move back to San Diego after school

Edited December 2, 2009 by Prince...

[Ohm-Nei]

Just out of curiosity, why can't fajin be used on a punching bag?

 

These masters make people jump back, is it a cellular thing effect? Or is it a force effect that may be seen on training equipment?

[NeiChuan]

It matters I guess..

 

I think it takes more juice is all.. I might know a guy that knows a guy that can do it to his truck.

[Stigweard]

There are possibly two different types of fajin being discussed here. One is the result of what my teacher calls "intrinsic strength" or my preferred term, "integral force". It is about a full integration of ones being and coordinating a full body movement in a focused direction adhering to the principle of "originating in the feet, controlled by the hips, expressed in the fingertips."

 

Whilst taking many hours of practice to achieve proficiency, this basic level of "issuing force" is rationally based in pure bio-mechanics.

 

The "other" type of fajin is what I believe some would call "empty force" and drifts into what could be called fa shen. This is where Taiji starts to look like "magic" (as can be seen in the above clips and I am sure our brother Adam Mizner could share some with us).

 

The very real problem with this is that these sorts of demonstrations can, and have been, faked. This faking is not necessarily intentional either as it can be more of a subjective self-hypnosis in that the individual, so wanting to believe, creates the result themselves. People can come to delude themselves like this through a groupie hero-worshipping process as well. In wanting to place their teacher on a pedastal they imbue their guru with super-natural powers and act accordingly (i.e. they "play out" the phenomenon).

 

Now I am not saying that "I don't believe in these abilities". I have enough experience in mystic phenomenon to easily allow for such achievements. I am also not saying, "They are all fake" as I am sure a few may well be the "real deal." The issue I have is when these masters publicly display and advertise these abilities without credible evidence to support their claims.

 

By "credible evidence" I mean strict double-blind tests. Please don't give me the worn-out "come and feel it yourself" rhetoric. My subjective experience of a phenomena is just as questionable as anyone elses. The only credible evidence would be a conclusive success of such abilities within the environment of double-blind protocol. Because, if you can't produce these results on a completely random, unbiased subject, what is the practical worth of it? If all you can do is demonstrate it on your own inner circle of students then it smacks of the cloistered guru-worshipping that I mentioned above.

[z00se]

Something cool i remember seeing (amongst many things on the same series) is the host of "Mind body and kick arse moves" a 10 part BBC documentry about crazy martial artists, is where he can hold onto peoples chi (i guess) and pull them backwards, or move them around without even touching them. He does it to complete strangers off the street and he is a western guy. Have a look at the series. it is awesome.

[doc benway]

Just out of curiosity, why can't fajin be used on a punching bag?

 

These masters make people jump back, is it a cellular thing effect? Or is it a force effect that may be seen on training equipment?

It can - you develop Fajin using a number of training methods, one of which is practicing on a heavy bag.

[WhiteTiger]

"bouncing" them. It's a drill we practice regularly.

 

Yep!

 

A drill that is practiced regularly.

 

nothing special about it.

[orb]

Yep!

 

A drill that is practiced regularly.

 

nothing special about it.

 

If there's nothing special about it - did you develop any Fajin yet ?

 

Also I am looking for one of these experts that can Fajin his neck out of a real choke not one of these "loving hands" type of approach where the "master" has to explain for half an hour how are you supposed to hold your hands before he can demonstrate his secret skill.....

[Prince...]

If there's nothing special about it - did you develop any Fajin yet ?

 

Also I am looking for one of these experts that can Fajin his neck out of a real choke not one of these "loving hands" type of approach where the "master" has to explain for half an hour how are you supposed to hold your hands before he can demonstrate his secret skill.....

 

Never seen that myself, but Phillips has his assistant touch his back and he releases from his back. My teacher told me something similar with his teacher.

[adam mizner]

hi

 

i agree but what these videos show is the "intrinsic strength" kind of fa jin. its just refined.

metta

adam

 

There are possibly two different types of fajin being discussed here. One is the result of what my teacher calls "intrinsic strength" or my preferred term, "integral force". It is about a full integration of ones being and coordinating a full body movement in a focused direction adhering to the principle of "originating in the feet, controlled by the hips, expressed in the fingertips."

 

Whilst taking many hours of practice to achieve proficiency, this basic level of "issuing force" is rationally based in pure bio-mechanics.

 

The "other" type of fajin is what I believe some would call "empty force" and drifts into what could be called fa shen. This is where Taiji starts to look like "magic" (as can be seen in the above clips and I am sure our brother Adam Mizner could share some with us).

 

The very real problem with this is that these sorts of demonstrations can, and have been, faked. This faking is not necessarily intentional either as it can be more of a subjective self-hypnosis in that the individual, so wanting to believe, creates the result themselves. People can come to delude themselves like this through a groupie hero-worshipping process as well. In wanting to place their teacher on a pedastal they imbue their guru with super-natural powers and act accordingly (i.e. they "play out" the phenomenon).

 

Now I am not saying that "I don't believe in these abilities". I have enough experience in mystic phenomenon to easily allow for such achievements. I am also not saying, "They are all fake" as I am sure a few may well be the "real deal." The issue I have is when these masters publicly display and advertise these abilities without credible evidence to support their claims.

 

By "credible evidence" I mean strict double-blind tests. Please don't give me the worn-out "come and feel it yourself" rhetoric. My subjective experience of a phenomena is just as questionable as anyone elses. The only credible evidence would be a conclusive success of such abilities within the environment of double-blind protocol. Because, if you can't produce these results on a completely random, unbiased subject, what is the practical worth of it? If all you can do is demonstrate it on your own inner circle of students then it smacks of the cloistered guru-worshipping that I mentioned above.

[Eternal_Student]

IMHO, there are different realms of cultivation, for different types of releasing of power.

Fa Li for muscle and tendon structural strength.

Fa Qi for internal pressure of thermodynamics and fluids.

Fa Shen for pure energy and spirit.

 

I am trying to figure out which category this fits into? My guess is that it falls somewhere between Fa Li and Fa Qi. And after emails with Michael, he has verified just that.

 

Now, the practical application of such techniques is debatable. Would you be able to Fa Qi or Fa Shen a non willing, aggressive combatant? Probably not. That would still fall under Fa Li because of the nature of adrenaline and what it does to your large muscle groups and coordination abilities.

 

Moving someone with your mind and spirit, seems to fall under a hypnotic category, as some well known stage magicians and hypnotists can reproduce these affects. IE, Derren Brown.

 

I am simply interested because my experience is limited in being "bounced" by the liquid wave as opposed to the structural integrity of most internal artists.