Fasting and Kung fu Training

[buscon]

Lately I feel like fasting, especially because of my qigong/meditation experience - I want to purify myself.

 

I've never fasted in my life and I regulary practice kung fu three times a week: monday, thursday and friday. I'm really into kung fu, it's part of my meditation progress, I don't miss a lesson.

So if I fast, I should miss some lessons (but I don't want to...) or miss at least one - every lesson is two hours of intense training.

 

That's my plan: I will start on sunday, in order to recover energy eating on saturday (after 2 days of training, thursday and friday); then I'll fast until wednesday, or more if I feel like.

This way I would just miss one monday and I will start eating again on thursday and in the evening kung fu.

 

What do you think ? What's your opinion about fasting and training ?

Edited December 3, 2009 by buscon

[Aetherous]

My view is different from most.

 

I think fasting destroys your liver. It also increases your energy, so it seems good.

 

Detoxification symptoms are mainly due to the organs telling you "something is wrong!", and it's not really due to actual toxins leaving your body. I would bet that you actually accumulate more by fasting.

 

When you're healthy, the liver should actually do most of the detoxing just fine, but making it work overtime to keep you stable while not getting any food, means that less toxins are being dealt with effectively.

 

Something much better is eating less and more often, like every 3-4 hours. Don't be hungry.

[buscon]

Hi Scotty,

 

interesting point of view.

 

I actually use to eat a lot, probably too much, since I was a child - I think it was another ego that I left behind.

I stopped eating so much since some months, since my body channels opened up and I gave up smoking too.

Eating too much was actually not gaining energy but loosing energy.

 

My body still quite healty (ok, maybe not 100% but almost), I've always paid attention to what I ate. So I don't need to fast in order to recover my body (even though the common opinion is that even my body would profit), but in order to "heal" my soul - I think that fasting would be a good test/opportunity for my person, my mind, my ego.

 

look forward to read other's people ideas about it

[Old Man Contradiction]

Unless your teacher wants you to fast I wouldn't.

 

My two teachers believe in food supplying your body with the nutrients and minerals that it needs to grow. They also believe that some food hurts you. So I have just started cutting out all of the harmful foods, which happen to be the same that my TCM doctor told me to cut out. No wheat, gluten, dairy, fried foods, or sugar.

 

A healthy diet and lots of training will give you everything you need and want. Fasting might not be good for what you are trying to do.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[immortal_sister]

i tend to agree with scotty as well.

 

what i would recommend for you to try is a brown rice fast. i have done that in the past and didn't feel as depleted as complete fasts. macrobiotic people are big on rice fasts. look into it, see if it speaks to you. i think this is far safer than most fasts, especially if you have never fasted before.

[buscon]

Thanks all for the good tips.

 

I'm already avoiding most of nasty foods, eventhough I still eating whole wheat, (self-made) yoghurt and some lighly fried stuff.

I eat a lot of whole wheat pasta, rice, barley, millet, vegetables, fruits, proteins(tofu, beans, eggs, meat). I mainly buy organic food. No coffe, a lot of tea, no alcohol, no sugar.

About the food, I'm almost taoist since long time

 

About the fasting, you persuaded me: I won't do that, I'll just keep on eating good things without overeating. Probably I just have to keep on meditating, and doing qigong everyday, as I'm already doing with good results.

 

Waiting that everything goes back to his own place, I keep practicing actionless-action

[Aetherous]

Yogurt is good.

[Andrei]

Fasting during hard training is not recommended. If you want to keep training, eat a fruit before training and eat protein after, this is the best way to assimilate the nutrients. Otherwise you will catabolyze your body (you will burn the muscular tissue instead of burning the carbohydrats and you will loose the strength). If you want to fast stop kung fu training and do more qigong/taichi/meditation otherwise the fasting will not be effective. It is not good to mix them, each has its own purpose. With hard training you strengthen your body, with fasting you strengthen your spirit. If you do both, you will not gain anything.... I mean, you will gain the experience...that is not good to mix them.

[buscon]

Ok, steam, I've got it

 

I usually eat fruits or carbohydrats some hours before the trainings and proteins afterwards and during the days without training.

 

Now I'm too much into kung fu for having a break with fasting, I'll do it when I wanna to have a pause with my training.

 

Cheers

[EagleShen]

There are lots of approaches and perspectives on fasting, i'd say have a chat to your teacher first (assuming this is possible), many systems and lineages, and IMO any well rounded system, will have an approach to diet and fasting. Follow that, if your teacher doesn't know see if you can find anything in the literature of lineage you're practising. Diet and fasting is about a lot more than just what you're eating or not eating.

 

Agree with steam, you don't want to go fasting while doing hard training, but there's obviously something going on for you digestively that you need to pay attention to. If you haven't already you might want to look into seasonal eating, also slow cooked congees hit that nail on the head for me when i'm training a lot and my appetite is weak. May be worth seeing a chinese doc if you're feeling persists, an ongoing feeling of wanting to abstain from food could point to a digestive imbalance.

 

I'd agree and disagree with Scotty. The critical thing with fasting is that if you just stop eating it harms your body, so to that extent i agree. But fasting can be incredibly beneficial if you consciously feed your Yin body while you stop feeding your Yang body, this is where the softer arts and mediation come in.

[Aetherous]

Steam,

 

Why do you recommend carbs before, and protein after exercise? My nutrition professor basically suggested the opposite. Because insulin spiking after having carbs will interfere with the positive results from the exercising (for about 2 hours)...and if you have carbs right after a workout, they are used mostly to build muscle and don't spike the blood sugar as much, so it's the best time to have them.

[Andrei]

Steam,

 

Why do you recommend carbs before, and protein after exercise? My nutrition professor basically suggested the opposite. Because insulin spiking after having carbs will interfere with the positive results from the exercising (for about 2 hours)...and if you have carbs right after a workout, they are used mostly to build muscle and don't spike the blood sugar as much, so it's the best time to have them.

 

A doctor which is kickbox trainer explained me this way: If you eat protein before training the liver will convert the protein into ATP which is used as energy provider by muscles. If you eat carbs before training the same will happen except that to buy protein you pay more. Carbs are cheaper (bread and pasta) and you get the same amount of energy.

 

After training if you eat carbs, you will replace the energy consumed, but usually after training you go to sleep. Usually the training in modern days takes place in the evening after the job hours. So you go to sleep with the stomach full of carbs and the liver will convert the excess carbs from the blood into fat, and you gain fat as well as muscles. If you eat protein after training and before going to sleep you provide exactly what the body needs, substances to rebuilt the damaged tissues from the muscles - normally after a hard training it should be a slight soreness otherwise you're undertrained.

 

Anyhow I would recommend protein but no carbs at all before going to bed. This is the basic principle that stands in the Warrior diet. Actually they say starving during the day and eat protein before sleep when the body needs it. I don't follow this nowadays and maybe that's why I gained some fat, but when I trained I pretty much followed this rule. And right before training session I ate an apple or a banana or some juicy fruit and also right after the training, it gives instant energy plus vitamins needed.

[Andrei]

Fasting is starving without the protein supply. You can fast only with water, or only with vegetables or juices without sugar. I know a receipt of fasting with only water, lemon juice and pumpkin seeds for treatment of illnesses. My father took a fasting for three months and cured a skin cancer only with apple and orange juices from fruits.

 

Pumpkin seeds have many health benefits, some of which include a good source of protein, zinc, and other vitamins, and are even said to lower cholesterol.[27] One gram of pumpkin seed protein contains as much tryptophan as a full glass of milk.[28] Pumpkin seeds are a good source of magnesium, manganese, phosphorus, and phytosterols.[citation needed]

 

Fasting has the role to reverse the metabolism from using carbs as primary via insulin - blood sugar into using fats as primary source of energy via glucagon.

 

A normal metabolism, if you use carbs as primary energy source, the excess of sugar blood is converted by the liver into fats (cholesterol) and deposited into the tissues. This is a normal process in all animals and humans because in the past when humans were hunters-gatherers they had periods of starving so they needed the extra energy to be accessible later when starving. Obesity occurs because nowadays no one starves anymore and the foods are too much sugar/carbs. So when the organism starves after 2-3 days when all reserves of sugar from liver and other tissues are depleted, the metabolism is reversed and pancreas secretes glucagon instead of insulin. Glucagon removes fats deposits and converts them into ready accessible sugar (glucose) and then used by muscles. Also it destroys the muscular tissue by burning the proteins, you loose fats but also you loose the muscles. This is called catabolism when you burn your own tissues for energy.

 

This is the reason why after 2-3 days of fasting you feel full of energy and light as a feather, because you switched the metabolism and begin to burn the fat. Is ok if you have mild physical activity but if you have an intellectual activity (at job or you are student and learn) or heavy physical activity or some activity that require concentration is not ok because the brain consumes large amounts of blood sugar and this is why when blood sugar drops you get a headache and you are not able to continue the brain activity, this is a sign you need a quick sugar dose, and if you get the sugar you did the fasting for nothing...

Edited December 4, 2009 by steam

[buscon]

There are lots of approaches and perspectives on fasting, i'd say have a chat to your teacher first (assuming this is possible), many systems and lineages, and IMO any well rounded system, will have an approach to diet and fasting. Follow that, if your teacher doesn't know see if you can find anything in the literature of lineage you're practising. Diet and fasting is about a lot more than just what you're eating or not eating.

 

Agree with steam, you don't want to go fasting while doing hard training, but there's obviously something going on for you digestively that you need to pay attention to. If you haven't already you might want to look into seasonal eating, also slow cooked congees hit that nail on the head for me when i'm training a lot and my appetite is weak. May be worth seeing a chinese doc if you're feeling persists, an ongoing feeling of wanting to abstain from food could point to a digestive imbalance.

 

 

Actually I've got a big appetite _always_, that's why I have to control it a bit, chewing better and not overeating, eventhough I've never been fat.

 

I felt like fasting not because of less of appetite, but because of spiritual development. I'm already eating seasonaly, I pay a lot of attention to my nutrition.

 

On the other side, now I've read your posts and I think it's better to fast when I will have a pause with kung fu, maybe next spring.

 

About proteins and carbs, I also follow the rule of carbs before training and proteins after. With carbs you have enough energy for training, with proteins you nourisch what you've burned during the training.

 

 

Thanks all for the good discussion

[Aetherous]

Steam,

 

If you eat protein before training the liver will convert the protein into ATP which is used as energy provider by muscles. If you eat carbs before training the same will happen except that to buy protein you pay more. Carbs are cheaper (bread and pasta) and you get the same amount of energy.

 

Well, actually protein is the worst food energy source. So I'd say the best bet is to eat a balanced meal an hour or two before working out, which includes carbs. The only reason to really eat protein is to get the amino acids...not to gain energy.

 

After training if you eat carbs, you will replace the energy consumed, but usually after training you go to sleep. Usually the training in modern days takes place in the evening after the job hours. So you go to sleep with the stomach full of carbs and the liver will convert the excess carbs from the blood into fat, and you gain fat as well as muscles. If you eat protein after training and before going to sleep you provide exactly what the body needs, substances to rebuilt the damaged tissues from the muscles - normally after a hard training it should be a slight soreness otherwise you're undertrained.

 

I disagree with this. Right after working out, the carbs will mostly be used to rebuild muscle and won't store as fat. Once again, I'd recommend a balanced meal (within half an hour of the work out). It will make no difference if you go to sleep a little bit after this or not.

 

I apologize for being technical, but it's good to get the real info. This is what I've learned the past semester in exercise physiology and nutrition.