KAP

[C T]

If you marry anyone that young its wrong, I shall judge. Sexual things aside, this kid has just started life, there might be many things they wanna do in their life. So being trapped in a relationship for life, without even having a choice perhaps? Is just not right. Kids arent stupid, but they can be more easily mislead too if they had a choice.

 

Think for yourself for a minute, and just imagine you had been married to someone from the age of 9 and you have to spend your whole life with them, even if they arent that great a person. Feels pretty bad being trapped like that, would you wish it upon anyone else?

 

And YOU DONT HAVE TO MARRY THE KID IF THEIR LIFE SITUATION IS BAD, YOU CAN ADOPT THEM AS CHILDREN. IF YOU MAKE THE KID A SPOUSE IT IS NOT OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF YOUR HEART, BUT BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING ELSE YOU ARE REALLY AFTER. THINK!

 

I dont care where they re from, what religion, what this, what that. It's wrong and selfish.

Unfortunately people with a little power or authority always seems to be slightly bent towards the kinkier

side..

 

I had a chat with my son about this topic, and at one point he actually asked the same question as you -

"have they considered adoption?" A lad of fifteen seems more sensible, but then again, its not really that

hard to figure out is it?

[lino]

This is pure and utter bull shit.

 

Buddha was discontent with his teachers.

 

He wasn't discontent with his teachers, he was discontent with the answers that he got for "Ending Suffering".

 

In the end, he had to put up an illusion of going out for "alms" in order to start healing people at two levels.

They could have just have stayed in the woods and lived off the land but he had way bigger fish to fry.

 

On edit: check out your "Taoist Alchemy", sooner or later you find that it is a means of starting an "outer" Heaven in your environment. Heaven doesn't stop at its so-called "boundaries".

Edited December 22, 2009 by lino

[Vajrasattva]

If you marry anyone that young its wrong, I shall judge. Sexual things aside, this kid has just started life, there might be many things they wanna do in their life. So being trapped in a relationship for life, without even having a choice perhaps? Is just not right. Kids arent stupid, but they can be more easily mislead too if they had a choice.

 

Think for yourself for a minute, and just imagine you had been married to someone from the age of 9 and you have to spend your whole life with them, even if they arent that great a person. Feels pretty bad being trapped like that, would you wish it upon anyone else?

 

And YOU DONT HAVE TO MARRY THE KID IF THEIR LIFE SITUATION IS BAD, YOU CAN ADOPT THEM AS CHILDREN. IF YOU MAKE THE KID A SPOUSE IT IS NOT OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF YOUR HEART, BUT BECAUSE IT IS SOMETHING ELSE YOU ARE REALLY AFTER. THINK!

 

I dont care where they re from, what religion, what this, what that. It's wrong and selfish.

 

Ok I get you are GOD and you can JUDGE everyone : )

 

 

in certain tribes that is normal and in most cases "sex" is not occurring till the child becomes a woman.

 

This still occurs in Africa & in Native tribes today.

 

 

Personally no I have no interest in marrying a young girl.

 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately people with a little power or authority always seems to be slightly bent towards the kinkier

side..

 

I had a chat with my son about this topic, and at one point he actually asked the same question as you -

"have they considered adoption?" A lad of fifteen seems more sensible, but then again, its not really that

hard to figure out is it?

 

 

I agree I think adoption is a better "option".

[ShaktiMama]

Unfortunately people with a little power or authority always seems to be slightly bent towards the kinkier

side..

 

I had a chat with my son about this topic, and at one point he actually asked the same question as you -

"have they considered adoption?" A lad of fifteen seems more sensible, but then again, its not really that

hard to figure out is it?

 

yes... i agree but i am a product of my times and culture.

 

Thousands of years ago it was quite different...values, people, cultures.

 

People who say they would like to live in past times need to consider how alien those cultures are to ours. In my own life I am so acculturated to being an American that even going to Canada is strange.

 

I would hate to be a female back then. But it is over and done with. Complaining about it now is not going to change the past.

 

This is an old problem for people discounting what is true based on the reputation of the speaker. A pearl is still a pearl even if it is hidden in a load of crap. Hopefully, we are mature enough to make those distinctions rather than knee jerk react about it. Besides one man's crap is another man's treasure.

[Tao99]

Ok I get you are GOD and you can JUDGE everyone : )

 

One need not be GOD to JUDGE everyone. In fact it's a parent's primal, functional Right and Responsibility to judge everyone as to what's good or bad for their children (because the children aren't developed/experienced enough to make informed, rational choices.) And same is true for neighbors, other adults, etc.

[C T]

yes... i agree but i am a product of my times and culture.

 

Thousands of years ago it was quite different...values, people, cultures.

 

People who say they would like to live in past times need to consider how alien those cultures are to ours. In my own life I am so acculturated to being an American that even going to Canada is strange.

 

I would hate to be a female back then. But it is over and done with. Complaining about it now is not going to change the past.

 

This is an old problem for people discounting what is true based on the reputation of the speaker. A pearl is still a pearl even if it is hidden in a load of crap. Hopefully, we are mature enough to make those distinctions rather than knee jerk react about it. Besides one man's crap is another man's treasure.

Wow! You impress me ShaktiMama! So intuitive! You even picked up on my subconscious 'itch'!!

 

We need never be a slave to conditions though. That is a weakness we could all do well to overcome.

[Vajrasattva]

[lino]

In Islam women are not as important as men, and to insinuate that women could potentially be prophets is downright insulting to many Muslims.

 

From http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/kora...amp;byte=114839

 

[4.11] Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females; then if they are more than two females, they shall have two-thirds of what the deceased has left, and if there is one, she shall have the half; and as for his parents, each of them shall have the sixth of what he has left if he has a child, but if he has no child and (only) his two parents inherit him, then his mother shall have the third; but if he has brothers, then his mother shall have the sixth after (the payment of) a bequest he may have bequeathed or a debt; your parents and your children, you know not which of them is the nearer to you in usefulness; this is an ordinance from Allah: Surely Allah is Knowing, Wise.

 

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

 

Basically Koran is the same backwards crap as Leviticus in the Bible.

 

Dude,

 

Also, do we know the language to actually read the source?

 

Who translated?

 

Who paid the person to translate it?

Edited December 22, 2009 by lino

[Vajrasattva]

On a Side note......

 

KAP is just a foundation of good energy work to do as you wish with it & to evolve in to a "HUMAN"/SPIRITUAL being and to take care of yourself and others on this wonderful planet.

 

Dr. Glenn Morris Embraced all things that FURTHERED HUMANITY as a whole and took care of Mother Earth.

 

To understand KAP and to get the most out of it you will have to see that it is an extraction of what works from all sources be it Scientific, Martial, Medical, Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Sufi, Christian, Templar, Shamanic, Etc.

 

The truth is things are more UNIVERSAL and actually similar than our egos would like them to be.

 

WE HAVE NO SEPARATION at the higher levels & the DIVINE SOURCE OF ALL is THE DIVINE no matter what religion or ENERGYWORK or path you do.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[ShaktiMama]

Wow! You impress me ShaktiMama! So intuitive! You even picked up on my subconscious 'itch'!!

 

We need never be a slave to conditions though. That is a weakness we could all do well to overcome.

 

Hah...I would never kid myself to think that I was being intuitive. I have seen this argument countless times so I had to find my way through it with an answer that I can live with.

 

So many pervs (IMO) in the guru/spiritual leader world and I am insulting the word perv.

 

I have respect for Santi's opinions even if he rubs people the wrong way. He's a stay at home Dad who takes care of the whole family and house hold while his wife works outside the home. Two daughters with one on the way and two sons of which he is primary care giver gives him a unique masculine perspective of experience with kids and childrearing. I think if more male teachers were the primary care givers in their family we would see a different kind of nurturing and loving in a teaching.

 

Which Buddha abandoned his family to pursue enlightenment? How many male teachers or aspirants abandon their families to do this? I really get annoyed at people who say they have to go live in a cave or an ashram for the rest of their life to pursue spiritual goals if they are abandoning their householder/family duties to do so. They mouth such spiritual platitudes such as "God is the more important to me than my family." Uh...no...God is in your family. God is in All Things. The hardest path, IMO, is to have an effective spiritual practice while living with your family. The Divine may be number one in your life but the Divine is wherever you are at...not in India, or Tibet, or China...or whatever. God is present where ever you are.

 

I was a failure at that. I had to leave-move 1200 miles away-because it was too overwhelming in the family dynamics. I needed to preserve my sanity.

 

Ok...20 years later I am "advanced" enough that I can make a go of it and heal damaged relationships I have. That is unfolding now but I wish I didn't have to wait 20 some years to do that. What a waste! Yes, a slave to my conditions. I wish I had myself and Santi 20 years ago to help me out!

[That Guy]

Ok I get you are GOD and you can JUDGE everyone : )

in certain tribes that is normal and in most cases "sex" is not occurring till the child becomes a woman.

 

This still occurs in Africa & in Native tribes today.

Personally no I have no interest in marrying a young girl.

I agree I think adoption is a better "option".

Why thank you, I guess I must be the source of your power

 

I am judging the action. If I went and killed 50 innocent people for no reason, would i not be a monster? Or is it just not your place to judge and you should just turn a blind eye to it? Maybe GOD/I () gave you the ability to judge for a reason, of course like many of the other gifts you got, use it wisely.

 

And like i said before, it's not just about the sexual part of it. And I'm sure you don't have interest in marrying a young girl, no one has thought or said anything like that. They were his actions not yours.

 

And even if it is the norm in some places or during certain times doesn't matter, it's still wrong for the reasons I stated before. Though it's not perfect, in our time we have a better sense of equality and the ability of giving people a better chance to follow the path they choose, in the "modern world" anyway.

 

So how can I accept the message of a speaker who does that? The guy started a MAJOR world religion, if he was a better man he could have changed this custom too. Not to be too arrogant but I am sure my ideal world would be better for everyone than his one.

 

If I were a woman I would despise islam, simply for the blatant statement that I am worth less than a man (maybe physically I can accept that, but there are women out there who can beat up men out there :lo:). I would look for my pearl elsewhere, preferably crap free

 

 

BUT whatever, follow what you want, make it fit your ideal image of it, just don't spread it.

You know, I think the reason we are mortal is so that all our "bad habits" can die with us over time, making way for better fresher ideas. Evolution of the mind if you will.

[Vajrasattva]

Hah...I would never kid myself to think that I was being intuitive. I have seen this argument countless times so I had to find my way through it with an answer that I can live with.

 

So many pervs (IMO) in the guru/spiritual leader world and I am insulting the word perv.

 

I have respect for Santi's opinions even if he rubs people the wrong way. He's a stay at home Dad who takes care of the whole family and house hold while his wife works outside the home. Two daughters with one on the way and two sons of which he is primary care giver gives him a unique masculine perspective of experience with kids and childrearing. I think if more male teachers were the primary care givers in their family we would see a different kind of nurturing and loving in a teaching.

 

Which Buddha abandoned his family to pursue enlightenment? How many male teachers or aspirants abandon their families to do this? I really get annoyed at people who say they have to go live in a cave or an ashram for the rest of their life to pursue spiritual goals if they are abandoning their householder/family duties to do so. They mouth such spiritual platitudes such as "God is the more important to me than my family." Uh...no...God is in your family. God is in All Things. The hardest path, IMO, is to have an effective spiritual practice while living with your family. The Divine may be number one in your life but the Divine is wherever you are at...not in India, or Tibet, or China...or whatever. God is present where ever you are.

 

I was a failure at that. I had to leave-move 1200 miles away-because it was too overwhelming in the family dynamics. I needed to preserve my sanity.

 

Ok...20 years later I am "advanced" enough that I can make a go of it and heal damaged relationships I have. That is unfolding now but I wish I didn't have to wait 20 some years to do that. What a waste! Yes, a slave to my conditions. I wish I had myself and Santi 20 years ago to help me out!

 

 

Yes God is in the Family as well as in your local areas & the people you interact with daily etc.

 

You forgot Susan I am also the bread provider for my family . Wife works but because of the way school teachers are wrongly treated in our society she makes less than I do. I teach & train people over 60 + hours a week plus raise a full house.

 

I am also in belief of something i once read that Gurdjieff said "the masters & the Path is in your own back yard. "

 

I do not know the exact quote but it was something to that effect.

That always struck a chord in me.

 

The other one was something the Dalai Lama told Tao and I once.....

 

"THe west is always asking Tibet to bring more masters. Its time the WEST MAKES ITS OWN MASTERS. "

 

I never felt a resonance with "Shakyamuni" Buddha's action to abandon his kid & wife to seek enlightenment and to end suffering. Being a Parent & a Yogi I just do not see the need.

 

To me i think he just took the "Longer" road.

 

Either way I can not Judge. & I wont.

 

However If it was me I would do what I do as I do everything else. I am & always have been a Tantric at heart.

 

"Nagpa" makes and made sense to me.

 

I like in Sufi traditions how one is not allowed to "LEAVE" the family but only for short retreats. and that to be in society is also as important spiritually as to be also in tune with the "heavens".

 

Its all about Balance.

[C T]

Hah...I would never kid myself to think that I was being intuitive. I have seen this argument countless times so I had to find my way through it with an answer that I can live with.

 

So many pervs (IMO) in the guru/spiritual leader world and I am insulting the word perv.

 

I have respect for Santi's opinions even if he rubs people the wrong way. He's a stay at home Dad who takes care of the whole family and house hold while his wife works outside the home. Two daughters with one on the way and two sons of which he is primary care giver gives him a unique masculine perspective of experience with kids and childrearing. I think if more male teachers were the primary care givers in their family we would see a different kind of nurturing and loving in a teaching.

 

Which Buddha abandoned his family to pursue enlightenment? How many male teachers or aspirants abandon their families to do this? I really get annoyed at people who say they have to go live in a cave or an ashram for the rest of their life to pursue spiritual goals if they are abandoning their householder/family duties to do so. They mouth such spiritual platitudes such as "God is the more important to me than my family." Uh...no...God is in your family. God is in All Things. The hardest path, IMO, is to have an effective spiritual practice while living with your family. The Divine may be number one in your life but the Divine is wherever you are at...not in India, or Tibet, or China...or whatever. God is present where ever you are.

 

I was a failure at that. I had to leave-move 1200 miles away-because it was too overwhelming in the family dynamics. I needed to preserve my sanity.

 

Ok...20 years later I am "advanced" enough that I can make a go of it and heal damaged relationships I have. That is unfolding now but I wish I didn't have to wait 20 some years to do that. What a waste! Yes, a slave to my conditions. I wish I had myself and Santi 20 years ago to help me out!

 

Susan,

 

For once i saw the person behind the post, and it is a welcome change to all the previous ones from

you that sounded so, well, so ShaktiMama - ish!

 

Much appreciated.

 

Have a good Christmas and peaceful New Year!

[Vajrasattva]

Happy Solstice Santiago!

 

http://vajrar0ck.tumblr.com/

 

 

Happy Solstice to you Drew may your heartfelt wishes manifest & Families be blessed.

 

Santi

[zazaza]

Which Buddha abandoned his family to pursue enlightenment? How many male teachers or aspirants abandon their families to do this? I really get annoyed at people who say they have to go live in a cave or an ashram for the rest of their life to pursue spiritual goals if they are abandoning their householder/family duties to do so. They mouth such spiritual platitudes such as "God is the more important to me than my family." Uh...no...God is in your family. God is in All Things. The hardest path, IMO, is to have an effective spiritual practice while living with your family. The Divine may be number one in your life but the Divine is wherever you are at...not in India, or Tibet, or China...or whatever. God is present where ever you are.

Buddha was royal family, i'm sure his kids and wife had plenty of money and good company around.

If buddha had not left his family, he might not have succeeded in what he did succeed.

 

In a time of hinduism and corrupted dharma systems he extracted the true from the fake.

Not only did he bring spiritual enlightenment to himself...

but help bring it to many many people as well.

 

 

 

I agree, taoism has some good elements... so does yoga...

but the core of buddhism is exceptionally clear in it's theory,

and they have very practical instructions for meditation.

 

Ofcourse buddhism is not perfect, and ofcourse there are many styles of buddhism that have become corrupted...

but some styles are still very very pure for example: Samatha Vipassana meditation (Mindfulness In Plain English - PDF)

 

 

 

 

Compared to mastering the mind and staying master of it,

going to work and feeding the kids is a very easy task.

Edited December 22, 2009 by zazaza

[Vajrasattva]

Going to work and feeding the kids is nothing compared to the internal work of mastering the mind.

 

 

Well it shows how much you actually understand zazaza.

 

 

More power to you if you feel this way.

 

But nothing could be more farther from the truth with this statement.

[zazaza]

 

Well it shows how much you actually understand zazaza.

More power to you if you feel this way.

 

But nothing could be more farther from the truth with this statement.

Not sure if you interpreted that right,

I meant in terms of difficulty... mastering the mind is much more difficult.

 

Compared to keeping the mind under control,

going to work and feeding the kids is a very easy task

Edited December 22, 2009 by zazaza

[Vajrasattva]

Not sure if you interpreted that right,

I meant in terms of difficulty... mastering the mind is much more difficult.

 

Compared to keeping the mind under control,

going to work and feeding the kids is a very easy task

 

 

becoming Buddha in a CAVE/MONASTERY is much easier than to do it as you feed kids & work.

 

Also there is no "MASTERING THE MIND" there is simply realizing the HEART/MIND connection.

[zazaza]

becoming Buddha in a CAVE/MONASTERY is much easier than to do it as you feed kids & work.

Many people will probably claim that they can't become a buddha "because of their family" or "because of this or that". There will always be something to put blame on, because that's easier than taking responsibility for one's own mind, here and now.

 

A bad excuse if you ask me. But your opinion obviously differs,

which is fair enough.

Also there is no "MASTERING THE MIND" there is simply realizing the HEART/MIND connection.

If nitpicking is the game, I can continue by saying there is no "heart mind connection" either.

You understould what i meant with it, and i suppose most people will.

Edited December 22, 2009 by zazaza

[ShaktiMama]

Buddha was royal family, i'm sure his kids and wife had plenty of money and good company around.

If buddha had not left his family, he might not have succeeded in what he did succeed.

 

In a time of hinduism and corrupted dharma systems he extracted the true from the fake.

Not only did he bring spiritual enlightenment to himself...

but help bring it to many many people as well.

I agree, taoism has some good elements... so does yoga...

but the core of buddhism is exceptionally clear in it's theory,

and they have very practical instructions for meditation.

 

Ofcourse buddhism is not perfect, and ofcourse there are many styles of buddhism that have become corrupted...

but some styles are still very very pure for example: Samatha Vipassana meditation (Mindfulness In Plain English - PDF)

Going to work and feeding the kids is nothing compared to the internal work of mastering the mind.

 

This is going to sound harsh...so be prepared...

 

Yes...i am sure that helped replace the loss of their father and husband. Do you really believe that material comforts replace's a father and husband's love? If you do I predict (IMO) that you are going to have real difficulty in creating the love relationship that you may desire in your heart. You just said, from a female's opinion, one of the most repugnant things you can say to a woman and her potential children. Putting a "career" above family and wife ( feminine/goddess concerns) is repellant to those women of deep consciousness and infinite love that a man could wish to partner with. Unless you want to be a celibate monk then go for it.

 

I am not saying he did not create good things but at what expense? Who is to say how much different and maybe better it could have been for that tradition if he stayed?

 

But Buddha is dead and so that won't change. Can a person hope to be better than the Buddha? I would hope so for otherwise there is an end to living. Be a Buddha and love and take care of your family? How radical is that?

 

Love and tenderness is not insignifcant on the course of how history unfolds. We are unable to see the eternal perspective. We can only see what is past and now. We make judgments and opinions based on what has happened in the past. That is a good thing and yet unless we at least contemplate how things could have been different will there ever be change or just a stagnant following of the way things are done?

 

We are touching here on a patrifocal versus matrifocal view of spiritual development. In my opinion it is good to blend them.

 

These things I speak from only my experience.

[zazaza]

Putting a "career" above family and wife ( feminine/goddess concerns) is repellant to those women of deep consciousness and infinite love that a man could wish to partner with.

whether a particular thing is good or bad in the grand scheme of things is not

decided by the fact whether someone is repelled by it or not.

 

even if his kids really suffered from his departure so incredibly much (something i'm not convinced off because

as you say yourself, it's long time ago and we'd have to see the specifics of the situation to really have a good

view on it), then that sacrifice was worth it imo.

 

Gautama had and still has a positive impact on this world on a very large scale.

Edited December 22, 2009 by zazaza

[Pero]

Incredible, just incredible...

[C T]

whether a particular thing is good or bad in the grand scheme of things is not

decided by the fact whether someone is repelled by it or not.

 

even if his kids really suffered from his departure so incredibly much (something i'm not convinced off because

as you say yourself, it's long time ago and we'd have to see the specifics of the situation to really have a good

view on it), then that sacrifice was worth it imo.

 

Gautama had and still has a positive impact on this world on a very large scale.

Well some of his family members actually benefitted greatly after his enlightenment, so they were not

neglected as such. In that sense the sacrifice paid dividends.

[ShaktiMama]

whether a particular thing is good or bad in the grand scheme of things is not

decided by the fact whether someone is repelled by it or not.

 

even if his kids really suffered from his departure so incredibly much (something i'm not convinced off because

as you say yourself, it's long time ago and we'd have to see the specifics of the situation to really have a good

view on it), then that sacrifice was worth it imo.

 

Gautama had and still has a positive impact on this world on a very large scale.

 

I agree. So what about today? That was then and this is now. We don't live in those times. What will you know and do differently when I tell you that women would today be repelled by a man who put his career (even if it is a "good" or "spiritual" career) first?

 

I can tell you from experience...in counseling many women... you will attract women who despise themselves in the name of God and think they have no worth...only the worth their husbands/ boyfriends/ their perception of a patriarchal divine gives them. Many, many men like that kind of slavish devotion. Do you?

 

This is a valid path. It works for people but what about you? Telling me that you dont matter in the scheme of how people in a large scale are positively impacted is worthy to examine. Where did you learn that? Why do you believe that is true? That may not be what you said word for word but it is hiding underneath your words for you value Buddha's choice.

 

Examine why that is so for you. There are some deep answers there for you. Certainly not my answers.

 

The average man marches along blindly, living his life without examination to the principles he espouses or admires without deeper introspection of how it affects him or his relationships to others and the world. There is a different way. Not my way, that's for sure. but other things to contemplate. What we don't know that we don't know is so large. The more I learn the less I know.

[goldisheavy]

You just said, from a female's opinion, one of the most repugnant things you can say to a woman and her potential children. Putting a "career" above family and wife ( feminine/goddess concerns) is repellant to those women of deep consciousness and infinite love that a man could wish to partner with. Unless you want to be a celibate monk then go for it.

 

I am not saying he did not create good things but at what expense? Who is to say how much different and maybe better it could have been for that tradition if he stayed?

 

I think this is a significant point. Anyone who wants to gloss over this or anyone who pretends to smooth this over is ignoring Buddha's real character. This is why I say that Buddha was not a boyscout. He made some tough choices. I don't want to call them good choices or bad choices. Everyone can judge for themselves. I think women and men are entitled to their opinions, and if some women (or men) feel that leaving the family is a lame thing to do, I think that's a valid opinion. I don't think it's the only valid one, but it is an opinion I can respect.

 

So if someone were to say that Buddha was an asshole because he abandoned his wife and child, I might disagree with this, but I would respect such opinion and wouldn't argue with it (or at least, not much ). Should Buddha be a role model for all husbands run away from their wives to meditate? I don't think so.

 

A lot of siddhas were very spicy characters. I love a lot of them, sometimes for their spiciness, and sometimes despite their spiciness and sometimes my feelings are mixed. But I would never want to change what those siddhas were, nor would I want to dress them up and make them look more proper than they were, or to drain them of all their colorfulness or ugliness. This is why I am so happy that Tibetans have decided to reveal some crazy siddhas together with all their craziness.