Flying Phoenix Chi Kung

[Baguakid]

8 Sections of Energy Combined (Buddhist)

 

Dear Terry, I learned a Qigong exercise called 8 Compartment Qigong. This is a forced method with breath retention. I believe it's more for Iron Body training but also is a Qigong. Would your 8 sections exercise be something similar?

 

Have you any experience with forced methods (breath retention)?

 

Thank you,

 

Bill

[zen-bear]

Dear Terry, I learned a Qigong exercise called 8 Compartment Qigong. This is a forced method with breath retention. I believe it's more for Iron Body training but also is a Qigong. Would your 8 sections exercise be something similar?

 

Have you any experience with forced methods (breath retention)?

 

Thank you,

 

Bill

 

 

Hello Bill,

 

I am not familiar with "8 Compartment Qigong".

No, "Eight Sections Combined" or Eight Sections of Energy Combined is a rare and extensive internal martial art that I learned from GM Doo Wai that he learned from a senior monk at a Buddhist Temple in Macao. The GM said that he "wheeled and dealed" his way into acquiring this art by exchanging some of his BFP knowledge for it, and by "other" means which I won't elaborate. In Cantonese, the GM pronounced the art "Bot Dim Gum". He said that Cantonese term also refers to what has been long published as "8 Pieces of Brocades", which he spoke very lowly of, saying that it was some kind wierd "marching drill". The 8 Brocades that I've seen in several books and which I tried and tested long, long ago is very, very basic standing qigong calisthenics with nothing close to the effects of any of GM Doo Wai's internal arts. I say this based on my experience and with all due respect to 8 Brocades or 8 Pieces of Brocade tradition because what has been published that I've seen has no breathing method taught with it. There may be more advanced versions with an empowering yogic breathing method attached, but I have not seen such a version. I'm sure there's more to the art; but what's been written in books is very, very rudimentary qigong.

 

The 8 Sections Combined ("BDG") art consists of eight very different and quite complex kung-fu forms , each with a different breathing method, each cultivating a different kind of energy. And the 8 Sections are supported by a half-dozen or so Qigong-like moving meditations that cultivate the BDG energy. When all 8 forms have been long-practiced, they created a blended internal energy that is unique, to say the least. I use the term "martial qigong" to describe this art in that the qi that it cultivates is very "heavy" form that is easily tangible and is so intense that it feels "mechanical", and can be transmitted through natural fibers such as wood, cloth, and even thin metal. (It is a totally different type of energy than that developed by Tai Chi Chuan (jing), that is released through the sinews.) Back in the early 90's when I had just completed the Third Section with GMDW, when I picked up my straight sword one day to practice the Yang sword form, without even doing the first movement but just by lightly gripping the handle, the sword vibrated from handle to the tip, with the tip displacing more than 2" at a visibly blurred rate. I was dumbfounded, elated, and have been quite amazed with this art ever since. When I have have demonstrated this art to other instructors, I usually did it through a large wooden table-top; the witnesses each time reported that not only did they feel the wood vibrate mechanically, but the distinctive energy infused their bodily tissues, going into their hand on the table and up their arm to the shoulder. (In each case, I made sure that I took the energy off the person). GMDW's mastery of this art is of course more complete, for when he demonstrated the energy on a couple of occasions--several times on a wooden table top and once through my straight sword (GM holding handle, me lightly holding end of sword with my hand), the vibrational frequency and amplitude of the energy that I felt each time was like what one feels when holding the handle of an electric razor on "High" setting. No exaggeration. I am pretty certain that each indoor student of the GM has experienced this demonstration at some point.

 

Thanks, Bill. Your question about 8 Sections caused me to recall the early days of training in this system and to come out once more to attest to the fact of GM Doo Wai's authentic and formidable internal energy capabilities. There are very, very few old-school grandmasters like him still alive.

 

Best,

 

Sifu Terry Dunn

[Baguakid]

 

Thanks, Bill. Your question about 8 Sections caused me to recall the early days of training in this system and to come out once more to attest to the fact of GM Doo Wai's authentic and formidable internal energy capabilities. There are very, very few old-school grandmasters like him still alive.

 

Best,

 

Sifu Terry Dunn

 

 

No, Thank you Terry. You are by far the most open, descriptive and most of all, level headed (you know what I mean here) exponent of BFP that I've had the pleasure of meeting (all be it on the web). You are a credit to Master Doo Wei and his system. Thank You very much.

 

Best,

 

Bill

[Spirit Ape]

Hi Terry Sifu,

 

Does the BDG have breath percentages?

 

nice info...

 

Sifu Garry

[Spirit Ape]

I can confirm the vibration within myself and GMDW demo's. My Dan Tian would vibrate so much when it first happened I thought I had my mobile phone in my pocket. This still happens occasionally but not as hard more smooth. I seen Sifu demo when I was on webcam many times, he would just touch the table with his finger tips and a glass of water would start shaking and vibrating then would travel across the table like it was being pulled.

[zen-bear]

I can confirm the vibration within myself and GMDW demo's. My Dan Tian would vibrate so much when it first happened I thought I had my mobile phone in my pocket. This still happens occasionally but not as hard more smooth. I seen Sifu demo when I was on webcam many times, he would just touch the table with his finger tips and a glass of water would start shaking and vibrating then would travel across the table like it was being pulled.

 

 

Yes, exactly. My very first thought and best analogy was what I said--like holding the handle of an electric razor running on "high." First in the tan tien and then through any natural-fiber object that one touches. Of course, we know what happens if one issues this heavy-vibrational energy directly into another human being.

[zen-bear]

No, Thank you Terry. You are by far the most open, descriptive and most of all, level headed (you know what I mean here) exponent of BFP that I've had the pleasure of meeting (all be it on the web). You are a credit to Master Doo Wei and his system. Thank You very much.

 

Best,

 

Bill

 

 

Thanks for your nice complement, Bill.

 

Best,

 

Terry

[zen-bear]

Hi Terry Sifu,

 

Does the BDG have breath percentages?

 

nice info...

 

Sifu Garry

 

 

Hi Sifu Garry,

 

Answer: Yes, BDG has breathing percentages.

 

The wondrous thing to me is that GM Doo Wai translated the internal systems that he had inherited (--that he had learned by just watching and sensing his father's breathing rhythms plus whatever oral teachings he used) into the breath control sequences with the percentages and all...and one system like Flying Phoenix is 100% healing at the highest level of sublimity, and then your Burning Palm System, and the BDG system is 100% destructive, for one purpose alone--killing.

[Spirit Ape]

Hello,

 

I would love to see the BDG fighting forms, are they similar to BFP/Bak Mei hand?

 

Sifu Garry

[zen-bear]

Hello,

 

I would love to see the BDG fighting forms, are they similar to BFP/Bak Mei hand?

 

Sifu Garry

 

 

Hi Sifu Garry,

 

No, I would say not similar at all. Eight Sections of Energy Combined uses larger frame in most of the forms, all appear obviously internal (the way GMDW did them) such that two of the Sections (part of the first, and all of the fourth and eighth Sections) look very much like Tai Chi in terms of circular movement, softness, rooting, and very slow tempo of the movement. But the fighting applications are all so trick--and in a classical manner.

 

And the body dynamic is totally different from BFP, BokMei (YKM), and Southern Praying Mantis...in that the style is not built upon the "sink and swallow; float and spit" body dynamic.

 

I can't really find another reference to describe it. It's just quite unique boxing style. Not like shaolin, no distinctive animal inspired movements. It'll be quite some time before I put them on video. But if we ever get together Garry, I'll be glad to show you.

 

I'll say this in addition: once the BDG Forms are well-trained, the body motion used in BDG strikes do NOT emphasize "rooting" the stance as Shaolin or in Tai Chi Chuan.

 

All the best,

 

Sifu Terry

[zen-bear]

[Fu_dog]

Sifu Terry -

 

The discussions beg more questions about FP and energy practice in general. From your experience:

 

(1) Is there an energy associated with virtue?

 

(2) Is there a correlation between being good (virtue) and the development of energy from a qigong practice such as FP?

 

(3) Assuming the answers to (1) and (2) are yes, then to what extent does living a virtuous life effect one's qigong practice?

 

(4) Is there an energy associated with being evil?

 

(5) How does karma effect energy (good and bad)?

 

 

I have purposefully left these questions a little open to interpretation to allow you flexibility in your response.

 

Thank you,

 

Lloyd

[zen-bear]

[Spirit Ape]

Terry Sifu,

 

Hi,just a quick question as I see you are a man on the Path. Do you consider yourself a Daoist or a mixture of different paths. At the end do they all lead to the same place in your opinion?

 

I was Ordained as a Daoist in 1992 at the Ching Chung Kwoon (ever green temple) my Sifu was a Senior Daoist that did rituals and stuff, but since his death I havent been back to the temple due to moving out of the state and down on the coast. Since then ive discovered many new exciting things that fit into Daoism although I dont like the Dogma of the Daoism but more a Daoist following the path of Internal Martial arts and inner cultivation without the rituals and ALters.

 

Thanks in advance....

 

Sifu Garry

[Fu_dog]

Sifu Terry -

 

I very much appreciate your very thoughtful and thorough response. It does, in fact, provide spiritual insight on a number of different levels that I have glimpsed, and believe I had observed at times. However, you have obviously given this matter of the power/energy associated with virtue and evil a great deal of thought and provide some rather unique (and wise) perspective.

 

I am in the middle of a pretty busy business trip as I write this, so I will comment more after I have had time review further and reflect on your observations.

 

Thanks,

 

Lloyd

[zen-bear]

Sifu Terry -

 

I very much appreciate your very thoughtful and thorough response. It does, in fact, provide spiritual insight on a number of different levels that I have glimpsed, and believe I had observed at times. However, you have obviously given this matter of the power/energy associated with virtue and evil a great deal of thought and provide some rather unique (and wise) perspective.

 

I am in the middle of a pretty busy business trip as I write this, so I will comment more after I have had time review further and reflect on your observations.

 

Thanks,

 

Lloyd

 

 

Hi Lloyd,

 

Your questions were actually kind of fun in that my answers were simply based on common sense regarding the "energy of good and evil"--recognition of which is (or at least should be) the very first practical benefit of any kung-fu training.

 

I was able to elaborate with more philosophical and spiritual insights and references to the I Ching as a function of my yogic experience, my alchemic experience (e.g., familiarity with oracles like the I Ching) and "calibration" to energy and spiritual phenomena.

 

I look forward to your comments and further questions.

 

Best,

 

Terry Dunn

[zen-bear]

Terry Sifu,

 

Hi,just a quick question as I see you are a man on the Path. Do you consider yourself a Daoist or a mixture of different paths. At the end do they all lead to the same place in your opinion?

 

I was Ordained as a Daoist in 1992 at the Ching Chung Kwoon (ever green temple) my Sifu was a Senior Daoist that did rituals and stuff, but since his death I havent been back to the temple due to moving out of the state and down on the coast. Since then ive discovered many new exciting things that fit into Daoism although I dont like the Dogma of the Daoism but more a Daoist following the path of Internal Martial arts and inner cultivation without the rituals and ALters.

 

Thanks in advance....

 

Sifu Garry

 

 

 

 

Hi Sifu Garry,

 

In answer to your question: Yes, I consider myself a Taoist AND a mixture of two other religious traditions—Gnostic Christianity and Chan (Zen) Buddhism (through Hui-Neng), and all of which are unified by belief in a One God, Creator, Universal Power, Source of the Big Bang that is one-with man. Yes, in my opinion, all the great Gnostic spiritual traditions in the world lead to the same understanding that the God and man are One.

 

In 1983, I was ordained a Taoist priest by Master Share K. Lew at the Taoist Sanctuary in San Diego in the Tao Tan Pai tradition along with a number of other adepts including Bill Helm, Hugh Morison and Bruce Eichelberger. We were not taught rigid dogma or rote formalities within this tradition, but all the teachings were based on and flowed from our practice of the TTP internal arts. The ordination ceremony consisted of many kung-fu demonstrations followed by an annointing ritual conducted by Sifu Lew that empowered each person to be of service through teaching and healing.

 

In Asia, especially in less developed areas, I have seen Taoist temples that teach very dogmatic doctrines and practice rigid, orthodox rituals (without explaining their purpose. I've also seen some empty, cult-like ritualism where it was obvious the people didn't know why they were doing it. It doesn't matter if you don't regularly attend the Taoist temple where you were ordained, as long a you continue to master the Taoist internal arts properly and arrive at your own unique truth, that's all that matters. There is the living Tao and the taoist arts keep us in alignment with It so that we can see its natural processes and utilize them wisely.

 

I was raised in the Protestant church since I arrived in America at age 6. (My grandparents were sponsored by American missionaries to attend medical school in the 1910's and my parents were both church-going Christians, but culturally were Confucian-buddhists). When I was a kid going to church and Sunday school, I read the scriptures in a very literal, orthodox sense. Once the years of meditative practices (from TTP's yogas in particular) started to kick-in in the early 1980's and my awareness expanded beyond the mundane, I saw the scriptures in a totally different way. Not to get preachy and off-track here on this qigong discussion thread, but to me, Christ’s message is:

 

You are the Way, the Truth and the Light…that’s what you really are.”

 

And I believe that’s what Christ tried to get his followers to understand—that they were just as much incarnations of God as he was. [Only the Catholic church decided to bottle that Ultimate Truth up and said, “Oh no, only the historical Jesus was the Son of God; not you, Baby, not you!”]

 

This All-One teaching (“I and the Father are one; before Abraham was, I AM.") is found throughout the scriptures of the world, and sometimes not so subtle--but point-blank, as in John 10: 30-38:

 

When the Jews took up stones to stone him, Christ said to them,

“Many a good Work have I shown you; for which of those works do you stone me?

And they answered, "We stone you not for a good work but for blasphemy, because you being a man make yourself to be God.”

And Christ answered: "Is it not written in your Law, I said, Ye are Gods?"

 

And he’s reminding them of their own Law—in the 82nd Psalm:

 

Verse 6-7: “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

But you shall die like men.”

Edited April 2, 2010 by zen-bear

[Spirit Ape]

Hi Sifu Terry,

 

I sent you an email!

 

I have a question on Qi Kung for you, what do you feel can give better health 1) Qi Kung or 2) Martial Qi Kung?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Regards

Sifu Garry

[zen-bear]

Hi Sifu Terry,

 

I sent you an email!

 

I have a question on Qi Kung for you, what do you feel can give better health 1) Qi Kung or 2) Martial Qi Kung?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Regards

Sifu Garry

 

 

Hi Sifu Garry,

 

Happy Easter.

 

Answer to your question: Rare systems of Medical Qigong that cultivate purely a healing energy (e.g., Flying Phoenix Qigong) naturally impart more health benefits than what I generic qigong (what I call "pedestrian" qigong) or martial qigong systems. (**not to sound condescending or snooty, but so much of the qigong that's been published in the west in books and videos are translations of very basic, rudimentary qigong exercises from broken traditions that the PRC printed onto tens of millions of pamphlets with line-drawings and disseminated throughout China in the early 70's just to keep the populace pacified--hence, "pedestrian".) I don't like this downstream hokum because it creates the totally false notion that there is a style or a body of "generic qigong." I call this low-level generic qigong "pedestrian qigong" because unqualified, self-proclaimed teachers are doing this simplistic stuff for a short duration, calling them "masters" and further palming it off on the public--in just the same way that Indian yoga has been totally diluted by fast-buck artists and commercialization that has no standards whatsoever. Qigong has always been and always will be the SECRET ENGINE that empowers Chinese martial and healing art, and it comes at the very end of one's training--as we both know--NOT at the beginning. [After all these years, it still just drives me crazy when some when someone tells me they practice qigong and I ask them, "oh, what style?", and they say "I don't know, just qigong." It's like someone practicing kung-gu and not knowing what style they're practicing--or that there are even different styles of kung-fu!]

 

Before I met GM Doo Wai, I wouldn't have known the difference between generic qigong and martial qigong. But after having undergone the training to learn both a purely medical qigong system (Flying Phoenix Heavenly Healing Chi Meditations) and several martial forms (e.g., 8 Sections of Energy Combined), and having not learned much of GNDW's Bok Fu Pai system (but having seen plenty of it), and the "most" martial component of BFP that he practices (which I will later PM you about)), I can readily attest that medical qigong has more benefits than the martial qigong.

 

The most martial qigong that GMDW taught us feels totally different from healing qigong (Flying Phoenix) in every way. The energy is different in nature and it affects the practitioner's body in a totally different manner.

 

When I first learned one of GM's "most martial" qigong methods, it caused certain root parts of the lower body to vibrate intensely. To me it was obviously martial. When I commented about it to GMDW, he said (verbatim), "That's the energy it takes to take out somebody."

 

The energy effects from this martial qigong system is completely different, almost opposite from the tangible energy effects of Flying Phoenix.

 

Thanks for asking your question. It allowed me to think back about the contrast between martial and healing qigong systems.

 

Also, to complicate things further and to show the degree of sophisticated refinement in Qigong arts, one predominantly martial system that GMDW taught 3 of us in our group: called 10,000 Buddhas' Mediation had 3 sets of meditations. Each set cultivated a different type of energy. When all 3 sections were mastered, the combined energy is very unique and powerful. GMDW told us that many of the exercises in each of the 3 sections were health-and-martial meditations (they had both health effects and cultivated martial energy).--and I don't mean a generic metabolic energy that when combined with SHEN/martial intent made it a martial energy. It was a cultivated, non-ordinary, standing martial energy, ready to issue.

 

Cheers,

 

Terry

[rsalazar]

Hi Sifu Terry,

Is it OK to wear earplugs during FPCK? I live in an area with a lot of big trucks passing by and this is probably the only to prevent any inadvertent shock to the system during practice. Also, can the seated meditations be done sitting in a chair as well? Or is half-lotus a crucial component to these exercises?

Thanks,

Rene'

[Spirit Ape]

Very Interesting Sifu Terry, I will respond later but what would you consider Lui He Ba Fa a Martial, spiritual or Healing Qi Gong?

 

Happy easter my friend "PEACE BE WITH YOU"

 

Garry

[zen-bear]

Very Interesting Sifu Terry, I will respond later but what would you consider Lui He Ba Fa a Martial, spiritual or Healing Qi Gong?

 

Happy easter my friend "PEACE BE WITH YOU"

 

Garry

 

 

 

Sifu Garry,

 

I hope you had a lovely Easter as well.

 

I just sent you a PM. Let me know whether it got through.

Thanks.

 

Best,

 

Terry

[zen-bear]

Sifu Garry,

 

I hope you had a lovely Easter as well.

 

I just sent you a PM. Let me know whether it got through.

Thanks.

 

Best,

 

Terry

 

 

P.S. Oh, I forgot to answer your question regarding Liu He Ba Fa:

6Harmonies/8Methods Boxing (which is what I formally call it--also "Water Boxing", or "Schwei Chuan") is a complete system of martial art. Just like Tai Chi Chuan. Relative to Tai Chi Chuan being regarded as a complete internal martial art, it would be incorrect to call 6H/8M a system of Qigong. The complete Liu He Ba Fa martial art contains very specific martial qigong exercises,which can be clearly demonstrated as being separate from the Form(s), weapon form(s),and the fighting techniques codified in the Form(s). Therefore, the complete art should be referred to as an internal martial art.

[Spirit Ape]

Hi Terry Sifu,

 

I got your PM, ill send you one shortly!

 

Ok, so LHBF as an Internal art its based on Chi, Yin Yang, 5 elements, to me that is still a form of Chi Kung. Would you catagorize it as Martial Chi Kung, im trying to see what you are saying as we both use different terminologies or you dont consider it a Chi Kung internal martial art system? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to understand your meanings for it all to get a better base to chat on a similar or same level!

 

regards

Garry

[Fu_dog]

Hi Sifu Terry -

 

OK, shifting gears a little, I have a rather pedestrian (but important) question to ask regarding Flying Phoenix.

 

It's a really rich system, with quite a few exercises. So, as for a practice routine, assuming an average 60 minutes a day devoted to Flying Phoenix, what do you recommend?

 

Is it better to work sequentially through the FP exercises we know?

 

Or, are there base exercises that should be practiced more often, with greater frequency?

 

One thing I am finding is my pace of doing the movements while doing FP has slowed considerably...I am definitely into moving slow like shifting sand. After a period of time, that seems to be a natural occurrence. I mention this because with the relative slow pace I now average 20 minutes per exercise (I'm speaking specifically of the seated meditations), so in one hour I comfortably do three exercises.

 

Also on a side note, the Flying Phoenix meditations have continually gotten stronger and stronger with each passing week I have practiced them...is there any end to this increasing energy?

 

Thanks for your advice and council on this.

 

Lloyd