Yoga vs Tai Chi

[doc benway]

With all due respect you sound as though you know very little about Taijiquan. As it is a holistic system Taiji is focused equally on the spine, shoulders, hips and legs to develop transmission of force.

 

If you are not learning how to open up the joints in these parts of the body and utilising them as whole I'm afraid you are not learning 'real' Taiji.

'Real'? Probably more real than you can imagine or have seen, but no matter. Tai chi will surely help with posture and alignment but that's just a small piece of the puzzle. Two of the more important aspects of curing or preventing back pain is strengthening (which requires bending over and to the side and back - postures and movements) and flexing, and tai chi has none of it. The primary cause of back pain in most people is poor muscle strength so strengthening is essential. Maybe tai chi can help a little, but it's nothing compared to a good holistic chi kung system, which you may have not seen. I suspect it's what some people call warmups (which where I come from is chi kung) that is helping their backs mre than the taichi itself. Tai chi is great for a lot of things but it simply doesn't do much for your back compared to other systems.

All Taijiquan practice must include warmups and standing or it is incomplete. I agree that the warmups are a key component but I don't view them as separate.

Most back pain is actually caused by repressed anger, not poor muscle strength, although both are major contributers... So, in my view, it is not just the exercise that helps. It is the overall sense of well being, the self confidence generated by physical activity, the emotional and psychological healing that is experienced with Taiji and Yoga practice and so on. Exercise alone won't solve the problem.

[Eviander]

Sorry if I have offended anybody with my lack of detailed knowledge in both these arts, but I have read numerous times that they are both systems that work the energy body and hence figured they where simply different ways of moving prana or chi throughout the body.

 

That being said, my goal is to get a unity of sensation in my body and to better align my spinal chord and perfect my posture and stance in my muscles and bones, face and eyes and hands, ect., which in my knowledge is all done by unblocking energy blockages that a stressful life has created.

 

So I am not at all appealed to toning my body for sex appeal, but rather I am about getting back into my natural state of flow within my body.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Eviander

[fiveelementtao]

'Real'? Probably more real than you can imagine or have seen, but no matter. Tai chi will surely help with posture and alignment but that's just a small piece of the puzzle. Two of the more important aspects of curing or preventing back pain is strengthening (which requires bending over and to the side and back - postures and movements) and flexing, and tai chi has none of it. The primary cause of back pain in most people is poor muscle strength so strengthening is essential. Maybe tai chi can help a little, but it's nothing compared to a good holistic chi kung system, which you may have not seen. I suspect it's what some people call warmups (which where I come from is chi kung) that is helping their backs mre than the taichi itself. Tai chi is great for a lot of things but it simply doesn't do much for your back compared to other systems.

 

New Dawn, I also say with respect, that I must agree that your Tai Chi instruction may be lacking. Traditional Tai Chi IS a holistic Chi Kung practice. there are countless Chi Kung prepatory exercises involved. As I said earlier "Tai Chi for Health" type of training is not as in depth as traditional Tai Chi martial training. I do not think it serves you to get defensive. But your description of Tai Chi vs Holistic Chi Kung is also inaccurate. What someone earlier reffered to as "real" Tai Chi was in reference to traditional Tai Chi Martial training. Your teacher may be a very nice person and may even be a very good practitioner, but he or she is not teaching you a complete Tai Chi system. Traditional TC contains lots of stretching and Chi Kung warm up. And many people study the traditional method specifically to strengthen the back. If you are not getting that in your training, you are not receiving traditional or complete Tai Chi training...

Edited December 7, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[doc benway]

Sorry if I have offended anybody with my lack of detailed knowledge in both these arts, but I have read numerous times that they are both systems that work the energy body and hence figured they where simply different ways of moving prana or chi throughout the body.

 

That being said, my goal is to get a unity of sensation in my body and to better align my spinal chord and perfect my posture and stance in my muscles and bones, face and eyes and hands, ect., which in my knowledge is all done by unblocking energy blockages that a stressful life has created.

 

So I am not at all appealed to toning my body for sex appeal, but rather I am about getting back into my natural state of flow within my body.

I took no offense at all - I'm glad you posted your question.

Based on your stated goals I believe that Yoga or Taijiquan would be equally reasonable alternatives for you. I would also encourage you to practice meditation with any of the above. I don't think any one system is better than any other for your needs. More important than system is to find a credible teacher that you work well with.

 

Taijiquan and yoga are both founded on the principle of bringing the mind and body into better integration. Both are wonderful for improving posture, releasing tension and blockages, and helping you to become more aware of your natural state. I personally like Taijiquan because of my martial arts background.

 

The important thing to remember is that you don't need to return to your natural state of flow, you are always already there. You are just distracted or I like the metaphor - asleep. It is simply a matter of awakening to what your natural state is and living in touch with that.

[Old Man Contradiction]

if you are good at standing, you will be able to strengthen and exercise the back along with every other muscle in the body.

[Vajrasattva]

Yoga and Tai Chi are two completely different arts. It makes no sense to compare them.

 

 

Are they really different at higher levels?

 

Tai chi is good for a lot of things but it simply doesn't do much for your back, neither does chi kung if the practice is done all standing up straight.

 

 

Wow how much experience do you have with real Chi Kung? Or IMA?

 

 

It s all about strengthening your back.

 

The Spinal Suspension alone you learn from IMA & Chi Kung is worth any entry fee.

[Kameel]

Didn't BK Frantzis solve his back pain (broken vertebrae) from Wu-style Tai Chi?

Pretty sure I saw that on some you-tube video. In his opinion, he found Wu style more effective for his ailment than Chen and Yang. Please correct me if this is wrong.

Thanks.

[Ryan T.]

'Real'? Probably more real than you can imagine or have seen, but no matter. Tai chi will surely help with posture and alignment but that's just a small piece of the puzzle. Two of the more important aspects of curing or preventing back pain is strengthening (which requires bending over and to the side and back - postures and movements) and flexing, and tai chi has none of it. The primary cause of back pain in most people is poor muscle strength so strengthening is essential. Maybe tai chi can help a little, but it's nothing compared to a good holistic chi kung system, which you may have not seen. I suspect it's what some people call warmups (which where I come from is chi kung) that is helping their backs mre than the taichi itself. Tai chi is great for a lot of things but it simply doesn't do much for your back compared to other systems.

 

You know very little of the SYSTEM of Taiji.

 

There is the form, but that is only the beginning.

 

There is also chi kung, weapons and push hands as part of the complete system.

 

Push hands on its own does all the the things you just said that Taiji doesn't.

 

Learn the SYSTEM of Taiji and you will get everything you need. And probably more than you thought was available!

[Guest sykkelpump]

Sorry if I have offended anybody with my lack of detailed knowledge in both these arts, but I have read numerous times that they are both systems that work the energy body and hence figured they where simply different ways of moving prana or chi throughout the body.

 

That being said, my goal is to get a unity of sensation in my body and to better align my spinal chord and perfect my posture and stance in my muscles and bones, face and eyes and hands, ect., which in my knowledge is all done by unblocking energy blockages that a stressful life has created.

 

So I am not at all appealed to toning my body for sex appeal, but rather I am about getting back into my natural state of flow within my body.

 

 

Yes both work on the chi circulation,so I think you understand more than many here.but that is a common thing on this forum.everybody gives advice but they dont know what to do themself.

[EagleShen]

Apologies if you've already considered these things Eviander, your question has prompted me to think about what i would advise someone, it's an interesting consideration (i have practiced tantra yoga, qi gong and tai chi all in some depth). (BTW people may answer a bit more helpfully if you gave some of your pros and cons or thoughts about the subject)

 

My first question to you would be, which one inspires your imagination more: being a tai chi master or a yogi? If it's both, then what if you could only pick one? IMO it's important to have your imagination engaged with your practice, it really helps with practising on those days when you really struggle to fit it in.

 

As an aside, what is your personality like? Tai Chi takes a lot of patience and perseverance, so IMO you need these qualities or need to be clear in your desire to cultivate them to go this path. If you are impatient or very temperamental, perhaps yoga or Dao Yin might be good initially. Some traditional tai chi schools don't teach tai chi until you reach a certain level of Kung Fu or are a certain age (you needed to be 25+ to learn it at my school - this was due to physical and personality development)

 

The second would be: do you have a teacher or a community in your area you feel a resonance with? Live instruction from a good (preferably great) teacher you respect will do more for your development than any considerations of choice between the two. A community helps cultivation immensely, especially as you are learning (eg of it's importance, spiritual community is one of the 3 Buddhist refuges).

 

Lastly, not so much a question as a consideration is the form/school/integrity of the practice. There is a lot of yoga and a fair bit of tai chi out there that is not geared towards cultivation at the higher levels. Ask your teacher questions regarding your intent for cultivation and see what response you get.

[fiveelementtao]

Yoga and Tai Chi are two completely different arts. It makes no sense to compare them.

Are they really different at higher levels?

No, Santi... they're exactly the same... Every art is exactly the same...

 

Oy.. Give me a break. Go pick a fight with someone else...

Edited December 8, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[dwai]

So I have tried both..but have not done them in depth to tell what is a all around better system of energy work. I know Tai Chi is funner..but the subtle movements don't seem like they help the spine enough as opposed to the pain that yoga can be..

 

Anyways..I would like some opinions on what has worked better in personal experience..As I know yoga is more widely practiced..but I have seen taichi/qigong masters do some cool stuff in videos..

 

This is also assuming that one does not have time for both..

 

The answer is it depends!

 

I do both Taoist Tai Chi and Yoga and they have the same objectives and work towards same goal. The Union of Body, Energy and Spirit.

 

Yoga need not be a pain at all, at least not if you're doing it right. Yoga isn't about being a pretzel. Yoga is about using the body and breath to still the mind (The goal of Yoga is to stop the modifications of the Mind -- Yogas Chitta Vritti Nirodhah -- Patanjali Yoga Sutras).

 

The Asanas or postures/forms are only a part of Yoga. Yoga is called Ashtanga (or Eight-limbed) because of the following:

 

Yama (abstinence)

Niyama (Rules/disciple)

Asana (Forms/Postures)

Pranayama (Chi development by Breathing)

Pratyahara (Sense withdrawal -- go from outward seeking to inward seeking consciousness)

Dharana (focus)

Dhyana (meditation)

Samadhi (state of meditative absorption or union of body, consciousness and spirit)

 

Taiji Chuan or any other Taoist techniques ultimate goal is to reach this Samadhi state. Either using one or multiple combinations of techniques.

 

What works for you is also going to change with time. At times Tai Chi is best, at times Asana practice is best. But both are complementary and will help in releasing blockages and opening up the channels for better and stronger Chi-flow.

[Vajrasattva]

No, Santi... they're exactly the same... Every art is exactly the same...

 

Oy.. Give me a break. Go pick a fight with someone else...

 

 

Haha I was not picking a fight with you.

 

I do however feel they share many COMMON aspects.

[Vajrasattva]

No, Santi... they're exactly the same... Every art is exactly the same...

 

Oy.. Give me a break. Go pick a fight with someone else...

 

 

Haha I was not picking a fight with you.

 

I do however feel they share many COMMON aspects.

[fiveelementtao]

Yoga and Tai Chi are two completely different arts. It makes no sense to compare them.

(Vajrasattva @ Dec 7 2009, 05:07 PM) *

 

Are they really different at higher levels?

 

rolleyes.gif

No, Santi... they're exactly the same... Every art is exactly the same...

 

Oy.. Give me a break. Go pick a fight with someone else...

Haha I was not picking a fight with you.

 

I do however feel they share many COMMON aspects.

My apologies if I misinterpreted your post. As shocking as it seems, I see things opposite from you in this regard. Any commonalities between yoga ( in this instance I assume the post originator meant Hatha Yoga) and Tai Chi Chuan are only side effects. tranquility, health, energy etc... For many, these side effects are the main focus, so at the "lower" levels, these commonalities would be predominant.

 

As you know Hatha Yoga is primarily concerned with opening the Ida and pingala channels and strengthening the body and nervous system for opening the shushumna channel in the spine for higher yogic techniques to facilitate the rise of Kundalini. The purpose of Hatha Yoga from the beginning is a hindu yogic spiritual one designed to aid the practitioner into deeper seated meditations and ultimately spiritual liberation.

 

Tai Chi Chuan was created to be a very lethal martial art. It uses Chi energy, not for spiritual reasons but because chi power is the most effective fighting weapon. The health benefits and feelings of spiritual euphoria are enjoyable side effects of Tai Chi (and certainly can be used toward spiritual enlightenment) in the beginning but are not the initial purpose or end goal of Tai Chi. On the battlefield, one cannot take the time to "bliss out" in a samadhi state when someone is coming at you with a hatchet...

 

At the Higher levels yoga is about spiritual liberation... at the higher levels, Tai Chi is a killing art..

 

Many will, no doubt, take offense at the idea of tai chi's purpose being to kill... But remember, hundreds of years ago in medieval China, Chi was not just a spiritual concept. It was an everyday reality for Chinese culture and as such was used for both spiritual and mundane purposes.

 

The idea that Chi and more specifically Tai Chi as being only about peace, love and enlightenment is a modern western concept seen mostly in "Tai Chi for Health" type practices.

 

So, if you are responding to me directly and asking if I agree with you that Tai Chi and Yoga share more commonalities at the higher levels.. I disagree...

See, I thought you knew this based on our previous discussions and were trying to bait me into a debate...

 

Taiji Chuan or any other Taoist techniques ultimate goal is to reach this Samadhi state.

Sorry dwai, I have to disagree with you, also... Taoism is not Hinduism/buddhism. Taoist energy techniques do not follow the 8 fold path of yoga. Samadhi is an indian concept. Taoism is not about Samadhi... Two completely different spiritual paths seeking different goals with different tools... I know this is not PC in today's new agey supermarket of homogenized spiritual capitalism... I didn't like it either... but imposing my personal fantasy on Taoism didn't work for me...

 

But back to the point of the original question... Eviander, try both and see which one you like or do both... For your purposes, there is no reason you can't do both...

Edited December 8, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[fiveelementtao]

woops double post..

Edited December 8, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Yuen Biao]

'Real'? Probably more real than you can imagine or have seen, but no matter.

If it doesn't matter then why post for effect? I'm no master (in fact far from it) however I have studied with some very amazing people where I live and in Beijing and Wudangshan. These are the places where one can find 'real' Taijiquan. Please tell me about your trips there?

 

Tai chi will surely help with posture and alignment but that's just a small piece of the puzzle. Two of the more important aspects of curing or preventing back pain is strengthening (which requires bending over and to the side and back - postures and movements) and flexing, and tai chi has none of it. The primary cause of back pain in most people is poor muscle strength so strengthening is essential. Maybe tai chi can help a little, but it's nothing compared to a good holistic chi kung system, which you may have not seen. I suspect it's what some people call warmups (which where I come from is chi kung) that is helping their backs mre than the taichi itself. Tai chi is great for a lot of things but it simply doesn't do much for your back compared to other systems.

I think you are mistaken. If Taijiquan does not do much for your back please tell me what you think 'supreme ultimate' refers to?

 

Daoyin Yangsheng Gong and Taijiquan are similar and supplement each other. In contrast one can take each separate movement from a Taiji form and utilise it as either standing Qigong or exercise.

 

As far as I am concerned Taijiquan and Qigong are parts of the same whole.

 

You know very little of the SYSTEM of Taiji.

 

I also agree.

 

Are they really different at higher levels?

Wow how much experience do you have with real Chi Kung? Or IMA?

It s all about strengthening your back.

 

The Spinal Suspension alone you learn from IMA & Chi Kung is worth any entry fee.

 

I also agree with this.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Yuen Biao

[dwai]

 

Sorry dwai, I have to disagree with you, also... Taoism is not Hinduism/buddhism. Taoist energy techniques do not follow the 8 fold path of yoga. Samadhi is an indian concept. Taoism is not about Samadhi... Two completely different spiritual paths seeking different goals with different tools... I know this is not PC in today's new agey supermarket of homogenized spiritual capitalism... I didn't like it either... but imposing my personal fantasy on Taoism didn't work for me...

 

But back to the point of the original question... Eviander, try both and see which one you like or do both... For your purposes, there is no reason you can't do both...

 

Actually it is the same by my experience. They take different approaches towards the same goal. Just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it's not right.

 

If you *really* understand what Samadhi means, you will also know that Tai Chi or more precisely Nei Gung will lead to that state. That Taiji Chuan is also a martial art is actually the side-effect. Again, this is my opinion and I'm not looking for people to agree with me or not...so it doesn't really matter to me what you think.

[fiveelementtao]

Actually it is the same by my experience. They take different approaches towards the same goal. Just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it's not right.

 

If you *really* understand what Samadhi means, you will also know that Tai Chi or more precisely Nei Gung will lead to that state. That Taiji Chuan is also a martial art is actually the side-effect. Again, this is my opinion and I'm not looking for people to agree with me or not...so it doesn't really matter to me what you think.

Well Dwai, I appreciate your personal experience. I am not speaking my opinion or just my experience. I speaking about about the historical perspective and purpose. My opinion and your opinion is not relevant except to ourselves... But I think you have it backwards. The goal for you is that Tai Chi leads you to samadhi. But that is NOT what the original design for Tai Chi. The martial aspect may be the side effect for you. I respectfully suggest you do some research on the history of Tai Chi.

I do understand what samadhi means. I've spent 15 years studying, practicing and teaching kundalini yoga, hatha yoga and sanskrit mantra and have studied with some high level masters.

I appreciate your experience and in no way do I want to minimize it. If you had said, "in my experience, tai Chi and yoga do the same things for me and resemble the samadhi state.." I would have stayed silent because that is your experience. But you were speaking very authoritatively when you said, "Taiji Chuan or any other Taoist techniques ultimate goal is to reach this Samadhi state." That's your goal. And maybe the goal of many others, but it is not my goal nor is it the goal of traditional taoism...

That is a homogenized western ideal that all spiritual disciplines are basically the same... They're not...

So, assuming you do have a authoritative knowledge of yoga and samadhi, I'm not sure you have an authoritative knowledge of taoism if you think that Samadhi is interchangeable with "all" taoist practices.

So, Dwai this isn't personal. I'm not trying to attack you or your experiences, but one of my main pet peaves on this forum is people cavalierly lumping together Taoism, hinduism and buddhism into one spiritual grab bag based purely on feeling.

I realize that for many people, that works just fine for them. But for some of us serious about taoism, it just muddies the waters and adds to the mediocrity of taoist teaching here in the west...

[Aetherous]

Fiveelementtao,

 

If you had said, "in my experience, tai Chi and yoga do the same things for me and resemble the samadhi state.." I would have stayed silent because that is your experience. But you were speaking very authoritatively when you said, "Taiji Chuan or any other Taoist techniques ultimate goal is to reach this Samadhi state." That's your goal. And maybe the goal of many others, but it is not my goal nor is it the goal of traditional taoism...

 

This was my main disagreement with your post in the Kundalini thread... You are speaking very authoritatively...more so than anyone else. Dwai said "In my experience" and "this is my opinion", whereas you don't say those things whatsoever.

 

Have you attained the end result in Taoism or in Tantra, to be able to say that they aren't the same? If you've not attained the end result in either discipline, then you're not an authority, and should also simply be saying "in my experience" and not claiming to know everything.

 

I hope this doesn't come off as offensive or hostile at all...because I do respect you as someone older and more experienced than myself, and there is a kinship I feel, since we practice similar things. So no harm intended.

[enouch]

Fiveelementtao,

This was my main disagreement with your post in the Kundalini thread... You are speaking very authoritatively...more so than anyone else. Dwai said "In my experience" and "this is my opinion", whereas you don't say those things whatsoever.

 

Have you attained the end result in Taoism or in Tantra, to be able to say that they aren't the same? If you've not attained the end result in either discipline, then you're not an authority, and should also simply be saying "in my experience" and not claiming to know everything.

 

I hope this doesn't come off as offensive or hostile at all...because I do respect you as someone older and more experienced than myself, and there is a kinship I feel, since we practice similar things. So no harm intended.

 

 

 

My God...your avatar is amazing! I wish you would devise some perception exercises.

[dwai]

Well Dwai, I appreciate your personal experience. I am not speaking my opinion or just my experience. I speaking about about the historical perspective and purpose. My opinion and your opinion is not relevant except to ourselves... But I think you have it backwards. The goal for you is that Tai Chi leads you to samadhi. But that is NOT what the original design for Tai Chi. The martial aspect may be the side effect for you. I respectfully suggest you do some research on the history of Tai Chi.

I do understand what samadhi means. I've spent 15 years studying, practicing and teaching kundalini yoga, hatha yoga and sanskrit mantra and have studied with some high level masters.

I appreciate your experience and in no way do I want to minimize it. If you had said, "in my experience, tai Chi and yoga do the same things for me and resemble the samadhi state.." I would have stayed silent because that is your experience. But you were speaking very authoritatively when you said, "Taiji Chuan or any other Taoist techniques ultimate goal is to reach this Samadhi state." That's your goal. And maybe the goal of many others, but it is not my goal nor is it the goal of traditional taoism...

That is a homogenized western ideal that all spiritual disciplines are basically the same... They're not...

So, assuming you do have a authoritative knowledge of yoga and samadhi, I'm not sure you have an authoritative knowledge of taoism if you think that Samadhi is interchangeable with "all" taoist practices.

So, Dwai this isn't personal. I'm not trying to attack you or your experiences, but one of my main pet peaves on this forum is people cavalierly lumping together Taoism, hinduism and buddhism into one spiritual grab bag based purely on feeling.

I realize that for many people, that works just fine for them. But for some of us serious about taoism, it just muddies the waters and adds to the mediocrity of taoist teaching here in the west...

 

I disagree...and that's okay. Just like mine is an opinion, so is yours. Unless of course you are representative of every taoist that ever lived or is out there...

 

Taoist practices end goal is to merge with Tao. The spiritual transformation phase. Which is what Nirvikalpa Samadhi is...

 

Enjoy your perspective and I'll enjoy mine.

[fiveelementtao]

Fiveelementtao,

This was my main disagreement with your post in the Kundalini thread... You are speaking very authoritatively...more so than anyone else. Dwai said "In my experience" and "this is my opinion", whereas you don't say those things whatsoever.

 

Have you attained the end result in Taoism or in Tantra, to be able to say that they aren't the same? If you've not attained the end result in either discipline, then you're not an authority, and should also simply be saying "in my experience" and not claiming to know everything.

 

I hope this doesn't come off as offensive or hostile at all...because I do respect you as someone older and more experienced than myself, and there is a kinship I feel, since we practice similar things. So no harm intended.

 

Hi Scotty,

I appreciate your perspective and you raise some good points. I can be a know it all sometimes...

If I had achieved the highest state of either taoism or tantra I would not be on this forum...

I do have almost 20 years of experience at trying to integrate the two arts at the higher levels and the result was disastrous. I did then do some research into the history and theory of both and I found that in order to truly excel at them, one needs to understand the religious purposes behind them. So, I am not just speaking from my experience... That is what got me into trouble in the first place.. I found it necessary to get out of my narcissism and just my experience. So, what I am reacting to in others is what I myself did... I understand that I may need to find another way to express that.

 

When I became satisfied that I understood the purpose of Yoga in context of its original purpose in the religion it comes from, I realized that it was not what I wanted.

 

People get sidetracked by energy experiences.... I did. It wasn't until I had MAJOR energy sickeness from mixing Mao Shan shamanic martial arts with Kundalini yoga and sanskrit mantra that I HAD to stop and really take a look at what I was doing to myself.

 

So, the opinions I have stated about the purpose of Yoga and the purpose of Tao is not JUST my opinion or my personal projection. What I am saying is that to truly understand and benefit from these energtic exercises they must be practiced in context of religious and philosohical understanding. And from a religious perspective, Hinduism/budddhism is VERY different from Taoism. This is clear to native hindus and taoists. But, we westerners are as a culture are so new to these ideas, we don't care where they come from, we just want to fill the gaping hole in our souls from 2 thousand years of metaphysical starvation....

 

If I had to summarize in a few words the major difference, It is this...

Yoga is meant to burn away karma of past lives by igniting kundalini. This either shortens the amount of subsequent lives to be lived, or results in liberation of the soul to move to next level.

 

Taoism, especially early Taoism (Such as Shang Ch'ing which we both practice) is about transforming the body, preserving the consciousness of the individual and transforming them into celestial immortals.

 

Yoga is about pyschological transformation with physical transformation as a side effect, Tao is about physical transformation with psychological transformation as a side effect. In early taoism there was not a concept of "enlightenment". That idea came from the introduction of buddhism. That is not my opinion...

 

If anyone chooses to study the literature, scriptures and ancient writings of both religions. These differences are obvious. We, in the west, are so amazed at the energetic component, many of us do not study these arts in their original context. In the traditional contexts of both of these disciplines, religious and philosophical understanding was integral to the teaching of energetic disciplines. We, in the west do not do this. We just like to "play with energy"...

My contention is that it is our modern monotheistic culture in the west that has predisposed us to project onto eastern religions and practices the idea that everything is the same... ( basically, there is ONE god). This is a holdover from Roman conquest of Europe when Roman catholicism sought to integrate European pagan religions into Christianity.

 

I suppose if I had not practiced an extremely esoteric and powerful internal taoist discipline, I may have never been forced to figure out why the energies do not mix.

 

My *opinion*, based on my experience, my study and my observation of others is that many people who mix these kinds of disciplines together are initially, at the beginning levels, are enjoying some benefits both physically and emotionally, but I also think many people who do this over long periods of time may be suffering from low grade energy sickness and not even realize it...

So, yes, scotty. I am sometimes hostile and aggressive. Because I am reacting from my own experience. And it is my ineffective attempt to be helpful. But I do feel that it is important to be knowledgeable and responsible with energy teachings. That is my desire when I speak out so annoyingly. I'm working on it. Thanks for your perspective...

Mike

[immortal_sister]

Yoga is about pyschological transformation with physical transformation as a side effect, Tao is about physical transformation with psychological transformation as a side effect. In early taoism there was not a concept of "enlightenment". That idea came from the introduction of buddhism. That is not my opinion...

 

i have practiced both yoga and martials arts for many years now, but am by no means an expert in any of these arts. i believed, through my own experience and through reading, that the point of yoga was to utilize the body to achieve psychological and spiritual effects, that the body work was the foundation. same as what you are describing for taoist practices.

 

i would like for you to expand on the differentiation you made, if possible, as i do not perceive it that way from my own experience, and have in the past personally looked at both types of arts as very similar in the grander scheme of things. (i.e. true kundalini awakening being parallel to becoming an immortal, fully developing the shen body, etc.)

Edited December 8, 2009 by immortal_sister

[Mokona]

Tai Chi Chuan is amazing. I'm sweating and tired but somehow amaszingly relaxed.