Yoga vs Tai Chi

[fiveelementtao]

i have practiced both yoga and martials arts for many years now, but am by no means an expert in any of these arts. i believed, through my own experience and through reading, that the point of yoga was to utilize the body to achieve psychological and spiritual effects, that the body work was the foundation. same as what you are describing for taoist practices.

 

i would like for you to expand on the differentiation you made, if possible, as i do not perceive it that way from my own experience, and have in the past personally looked at both types of arts as very similar in the grander scheme of things. (i.e. true kundalini awakening being parallel to becoming an immortal, fully developing the shen body, etc.)

 

Hi Immortal sister,

What martial arts have you studied?

 

For everyone interested in the True Nature of Kundalini, I recommend the Aghora trilogy. I cannot comment on the authenticity of the story, but the teachings about kundalini are laid out very well in those books.

 

so, my immortal sister, since you asked... I'll answer. (probably to the chagrin of others) this is my opinion based on my experience, study and understanding. I am still processing it and refining it... Take it for what it's worth...

 

The goal of kundalini work is to burn through karma and stop the cycle of reincarnation. There are physical immortals in yogic tradition, but their goal was to stay in the body so they could retain their awareness and work through their remaining karma so they could stop the cycle of human rebirth and allow the soul to move on to the next level of existence and learning. (i.e samadhi liberation etc...) Kundalini is also called Maya or illusion. Tantrics know that working with kundalini is working with limitation, illusion and karma. Kundalini is illusion. The yogic idea of overcoming illusion is through. ( the fastest way around is through...) Tantrics know this...

I have actually have a better understanding of yogic strategy for overcoming illusion than I do of the taoist version. It may be because of my relative lack of understanding of taoism that I have commited to it... (Hmm)

 

anyway... If anyone goes into an in depth study of the differences in spiritual physiology of taoism vs hinduism, i.e chakras vs dan tiens or the hindu vs the taoist 5 elements, there are some pretty major differences. either they are both wrong or they are both right. I do not believe they are wrong. So, if they are both right, they must be different sciences altogether.

 

In my attempts to reconcile the two traditions, I was originally operating from the assumption that they were seeking to accomplish the same goals but through different means. But the deeper I got into them, the more I found that it was was very difficult to make them fit neatly into one package. I then, changed tactics and asked myself... "OK if both of these traditions are correct, why do they contradict each other so much? Then I changed my original assumption and decided to look at them from the assumption that they were seeking to accomplish different spiritual goals through different energies. bear in mind, the only reason I was forced to go through this process was because the energies of the two traditions were literally fighting each other in me. If this was not the issue, I would be blissfully ignorant and interchanging Yoga for Tao as many others are doing... I was trying to make sense of it so I could continue to practice both... I was unsuccessful. Mao Shan energy practices will not tolerate it...

 

For instance, the chakras... Taoists do not use chakras... Why not? The answer lies in the purpose of the chakras. The chakras are not energy centers. Dan tiens are energy centers designed to collect and process energy. Why? because it takes energy to transform the body into one of light... The chakras do not do this. I used to think that taoists just simply didn't emphasize all of the chakras. But the more I looked into it. the chakras and the dan tiens are totally different animals...

 

The chakras are gateways to psycholigical realms. The chakras are for the transformation of kundalini as she rises through the spine. (i.e. root chakra = material issues, security etc...) As the kundalini moves through the chakras, the person burns through their karma (emotional, psycholigical issues) and transforms their understanding

Now, if the chakras were important to taoist goals (i.e., becoming a celestial immortal) the Taoists would have discovered them.

 

When a yogi reaches samadhi they leave their body behind. Taoist immortals take their body with them...

 

I am getting a headache... Gotta leave the computer for a while...

 

I should also probably point out that I cannot speak for all sects of Taoism. My experience is in Shang Ch'ing Shamanic Taoist practices which have a very distinctive feel.

My experience with Yogic stuff was that it was a very "human" feeling energy.

Shang Ching techniques... especially the shamanic martial arts do not feel human. They can be very spooky that way... It may very well be that other taoist arts are more human and merge better with yoga...

Edited December 8, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Eviander]

Well...this topic has really made me decide that it is worth putting aside the time to practice both these arts..it does seem from the information given that it will be quite rewarding to do so..

[doc benway]

If Taijiquan does not do much for your back please tell me what you think 'supreme ultimate' refers to?

Hi Yuen Biao,

As my previous posts make clear, I do advocate Taijiquan for back problems.

You hit on one of my pet peaves, though, and I'd like to respond.

 

"Supreme Ultimate" is a terrible translation of Tai Ji. It does not imply the best and greatest martial art to the native Chinese speaker from a literal perspective (although many may believe that for cultural reasons).

Supreme Ultimate Fist gives this impression in English but it is a very misleading translation of Tai Ji Quan.

 

Tai Ji is the Daoist principle of Yin and Yang and how balance pervades all existence and how opposites give rise to one another and define eachother, and so forth.

I'm sure you know this but others may not.

So Tai Ji Quan would be much better translated as Yin Yang Fist.

It is the application of the Daoist philosophical principles of Tai Ji and Wu Wei to fighting.

I despise the translation Supreme Ultimate Fist - it's meaningless and completely misses the point.

 

I'd also like to comment on the similarities and differences of Tai Ji Quan and Yoga.

Tai Ji Quan was originally a martial art. Developed for the purpose of fighting. The health benefits arose from linking the martial techniques into what we know as forms today. That was a much later development. Sure the early practitioners may have practiced Qigong (probably physically demanding martial forms) and some may have practiced Daoist cultivation but the intent of Tai Ji Quan was not to facilitate meditation.

Yoga as a physical discipline was developed to promote health and flexibility to allow yogis to endure the rigors of prolonged meditation.

 

Despite their differences, modern Tai Ji Quan training and Yoga have striking similarities. Both promote health and fitness through relatively safe and gentle exercise. Both emphasize building core strength and flexibility and optimizing posture. Both have at their foundation, the development of a deep integration of conscious awareness and physical being (movement, posture, breath, and so on). In fact, Tai Ji Quan forms are performed very slowly and mindfully largely to achieve this. Sure, the isometric benefit of slow motion is important, but I would argue that the effects on mental/physical integration is much more important than any physical benefits (from a martial perspective).

 

I don't believe that the goal of Tai Ji Quan training was ever intended to be a spiritual one, unlike Yoga. Daoist cultivation methods are much more suited to those goals than Tai Ji Quan training and such methods were well known and reasonably accessible in China during the early days of Tai Ji Quan development. Yoga on the other hand literally means union and was specifically intended to create union in the division between 'self' (the illusory separate individual) and "Self" (the foundation of all being inclusive of life and consciousness in Hindu tradition).

[Aetherous]

Sorry, nevermind what I said.

 

It feels right not to discuss this stuff.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Scotty

[松永道]

Taijiquan, from the very outset, was developed for three reasons:

Health Cultivation

Martial Cultivation

Dao Cultivation

 

Whether or not it was created by the alchemist Zhang Sanfeng, it was almost certainly created by Daoists versed in neidan/neigong cultivation and the martial arts. Health cultivation nourishes life. Martial cultivation protects life. Dao cultivation is the meaning of life. But can Taijiquan fulfill these goals? A complete system that includes gonfu conditioning, form work, techniques, push hands and free application can fulfill the first two goals. As for Dao cultivation, Taijiquan has it's limitations but serves as an avenue into neigong/dandao work.

 

As for Taijiquan and Yoga similarities, the basic goals of Yoga are similar.

 

Of course, Yoga is not a martial art. However, both systems have mechanical similarities. Both systems emphasize the extreme importance of Huiyin/root lock/Mula Bondha for instance. Both emphasize a relaxed neck and lowered shoulders. The breathing is different, but breathing differs between different Yoga styles as well. To my understanding, Yogic breathing focuses on the middle dan, hearth and lungs. Taiji breathing centers on the lower dan. In Chinese medicine, it's said the Heart is the only organ which must be emptied to be full. Taiji empties the Heart by sinking the qi. Yoga clears the heart with breathing.

 

I cannot comment on the upper levels of cultivation work. But at lower levels, I find the practices to be similar, if not complementary. Though I primarily practice Taijiquan now, I have practiced Yoga a good deal in the past and still enjoy certain Yoga asanas, downward dog, snake, twists, etc. However, as Taijiquan can be practiced in any condition, wearing any shoes/cloths, and is a system based in upright movement, I find it more practical and transferable to normal everyday activities.

[immortal_sister]

Hi Immortal sister,

What martial arts have you studied?

 

For everyone interested in the True Nature of Kundalini, I recommend the Aghora trilogy. I cannot comment on the authenticity of the story, but the teachings about kundalini are laid out very well in those books.

 

so, my immortal sister, since you asked... I'll answer. (probably to the chagrin of others) this is my opinion based on my experience, study and understanding. I am still processing it and refining it... Take it for what it's worth...

 

The goal of kundalini work is to burn through karma and stop the cycle of reincarnation. There are physical immortals in yogic tradition, but their goal was to stay in the body so they could retain their awareness and work through their remaining karma so they could stop the cycle of human rebirth and allow the soul to move on to the next level of existence and learning. (i.e samadhi liberation etc...) Kundalini is also called Maya or illusion. Tantrics know that working with kundalini is working with limitation, illusion and karma. Kundalini is illusion. The yogic idea of overcoming illusion is through. ( the fastest way around is through...) Tantrics know this...

I have actually have a better understanding of yogic strategy for overcoming illusion than I do of the taoist version. It may be because of my relative lack of understanding of taoism that I have commited to it... (Hmm)

 

anyway... If anyone goes into an in depth study of the differences in spiritual physiology of taoism vs hinduism, i.e chakras vs dan tiens or the hindu vs the taoist 5 elements, there are some pretty major differences. either they are both wrong or they are both right. I do not believe they are wrong. So, if they are both right, they must be different sciences altogether.

 

In my attempts to reconcile the two traditions, I was originally operating from the assumption that they were seeking to accomplish the same goals but through different means. But the deeper I got into them, the more I found that it was was very difficult to make them fit neatly into one package. I then, changed tactics and asked myself... "OK if both of these traditions are correct, why do they contradict each other so much? Then I changed my original assumption and decided to look at them from the assumption that they were seeking to accomplish different spiritual goals through different energies. bear in mind, the only reason I was forced to go through this process was because the energies of the two traditions were literally fighting each other in me. If this was not the issue, I would be blissfully ignorant and interchanging Yoga for Tao as many others are doing... I was trying to make sense of it so I could continue to practice both... I was unsuccessful. Mao Shan energy practices will not tolerate it...

 

For instance, the chakras... Taoists do not use chakras... Why not? The answer lies in the purpose of the chakras. The chakras are not energy centers. Dan tiens are energy centers designed to collect and process energy. Why? because it takes energy to transform the body into one of light... The chakras do not do this. I used to think that taoists just simply didn't emphasize all of the chakras. But the more I looked into it. the chakras and the dan tiens are totally different animals...

 

The chakras are gateways to psycholigical realms. The chakras are for the transformation of kundalini as she rises through the spine. (i.e. root chakra = material issues, security etc...) As the kundalini moves through the chakras, the person burns through their karma (emotional, psycholigical issues) and transforms their understanding

Now, if the chakras were important to taoist goals (i.e., becoming a celestial immortal) the Taoists would have discovered them.

 

When a yogi reaches samadhi they leave their body behind. Taoist immortals take their body with them...

 

I am getting a headache... Gotta leave the computer for a while...

 

I should also probably point out that I cannot speak for all sects of Taoism. My experience is in Shang Ch'ing Shamanic Taoist practices which have a very distinctive feel.

My experience with Yogic stuff was that it was a very "human" feeling energy.

Shang Ching techniques... especially the shamanic martial arts do not feel human. They can be very spooky that way... It may very well be that other taoist arts are more human and merge better with yoga...

 

to answer your question, i practice wing chun (from the yip man lineage mostly), tibetan white crane kung fu, and yang style tai chi (although i do not practice very often these days). i have also learned various qi gong forms over the years, from all the systems i have been learning, as well as spring forest, but have been a slacker with the internal martial arts. i am trying to get my practice back up to par.

 

thank you for taking the time to reply to me, it is much appreciated. i understand the differentiation you are making, however you seem to be assuming that yoga = kundalini yoga. i don't practice kundalini yoga and tend to think that it can be a dangerous practice when taken on with too much aggressivity (as discussed in the other thread where the issue of mental sanity being lost through kundalini for many people). there are many different systems, same for internal martials arts & neikung. i was speaking in generanilities. and although chakras and dantiens are clearly entirely different animals, i feel that they can be complementary, especially since one is more emotional based and the other is more physical. if the two are slowly developed together, i have always felt that this could be a very balanced opening up of the body and the mind.

 

you are speaking about these practices on a very high level - to become an immortal, to be enlightened. the opening poster was asking which system would be better to help him restore physical health. so i was thinking more along those terms when i posted and said that the two, at their base, have very similar goals and both use movements and stillness of the body to achieve psychological and spiritual goals. for eviander's purpose, and on a lower level in general, i still maintain that the two are somewhat parallel and can be practiced together safely (unless perhaps the only yoga you do is intense kundalini yoga, then i can see how the two "energies" you would be building could clash in your body, such as your experience that you were describing).

 

i think this was stated well and i agree with this view:

 

Of course, Yoga is not a martial art. However, both systems have mechanical similarities. Both systems emphasize the extreme importance of Huiyin/root lock/Mula Bondha for instance. Both emphasize a relaxed neck and lowered shoulders. The breathing is different, but breathing differs between different Yoga styles as well. To my understanding, Yogic breathing focuses on the middle dan, hearth and lungs. Taiji breathing centers on the lower dan. In Chinese medicine, it's said the Heart is the only organ which must be emptied to be full. Taiji empties the Heart by sinking the qi. Yoga clears the heart with breathing.

 

I cannot comment on the upper levels of cultivation work. But at lower levels, I find the practices to be similar, if not complementary.

Edited December 10, 2009 by immortal_sister

[Yuen Biao]

Hi Yuen Biao,

As my previous posts make clear, I do advocate Taijiquan for back problems.

You hit on one of my pet peaves, though, and I'd like to respond.

 

"Supreme Ultimate" is a terrible translation of Tai Ji. It does not imply the best and greatest martial art to the native Chinese speaker from a literal perspective (although many may believe that for cultural reasons).

Supreme Ultimate Fist gives this impression in English but it is a very misleading translation of Tai Ji Quan.

 

Tai Ji is the Daoist principle of Yin and Yang and how balance pervades all existence and how opposites give rise to one another and define eachother, and so forth.

I'm sure you know this but others may not.

So Tai Ji Quan would be much better translated as Yin Yang Fist.

It is the application of the Daoist philosophical principles of Tai Ji and Wu Wei to fighting.

I despise the translation Supreme Ultimate Fist - it's meaningless and completely misses the point.

 

I'd also like to comment on the similarities and differences of Tai Ji Quan and Yoga.

Tai Ji Quan was originally a martial art. Developed for the purpose of fighting. The health benefits arose from linking the martial techniques into what we know as forms today. That was a much later development. Sure the early practitioners may have practiced Qigong (probably physically demanding martial forms) and some may have practiced Daoist cultivation but the intent of Tai Ji Quan was not to facilitate meditation.

Yoga as a physical discipline was developed to promote health and flexibility to allow yogis to endure the rigors of prolonged meditation.

 

Despite their differences, modern Tai Ji Quan training and Yoga have striking similarities. Both promote health and fitness through relatively safe and gentle exercise. Both emphasize building core strength and flexibility and optimizing posture. Both have at their foundation, the development of a deep integration of conscious awareness and physical being (movement, posture, breath, and so on). In fact, Tai Ji Quan forms are performed very slowly and mindfully largely to achieve this. Sure, the isometric benefit of slow motion is important, but I would argue that the effects on mental/physical integration is much more important than any physical benefits (from a martial perspective).

 

I don't believe that the goal of Tai Ji Quan training was ever intended to be a spiritual one, unlike Yoga. Daoist cultivation methods are much more suited to those goals than Tai Ji Quan training and such methods were well known and reasonably accessible in China during the early days of Tai Ji Quan development. Yoga on the other hand literally means union and was specifically intended to create union in the division between 'self' (the illusory separate individual) and "Self" (the foundation of all being inclusive of life and consciousness in Hindu tradition).

 

 

Quite succinctly I always understood the 'supreme ultimate' to actually refer to the spine because of its important role in every movement we make.

 

I understand thouroughly your information but it was not my main motivation for posting a reference to the 'supreme'.

 

It was merely in answer to 'new dawn fades' who expressed the incorrect view that Taijiquan does nothing for your back. How absurd!

[Andrei]

 

[dwai]

to answer your question, i practice wing chun (from the yip man lineage mostly), tibetan white crane kung fu, and tai chi, yang long frame (although i do not practice very often these days). i have also learned various qi gong forms over the years, from all the systems i have been learning, as well as spring forest, but have been a slacker with the internal martial arts. i am trying to get my practice back up to par.

 

thank you for taking the time to reply to me, it is much appreciated. i understand the differentiation you are making, however you seem to be assuming that yoga = kundalini yoga. i don't practice kundalini yoga and tend to think that it can be a dangerous practice when taken on with too much aggressivity (as discussed in the other thread where the issue of mental sanity being lost through kundalini for many people). there are many different systems, same for internal martials arts & neikung. i was speaking in generanilities. and although chakras and dantiens are clearly entirely different animals, i feel that they can be complementary, especially since one is more emotional based and the other is more physical. if the two are slowly developed together, i have always felt that this could be a very balanced opening up of the body and the mind.

 

you are speaking about these practices on a very high level - to become an immortal, to be enlightened. the opening poster was asking which system would be better to help him restore physical health. so i was thinking more along those terms when i posted and said that the two, at their base, have very similar goals and both use movements and stillness of the body to achieve psychological and spiritual goals. for eviander's purpose, and on a lower level in general, i still maintain that the two are somewhat parallel and can be practiced together safely (unless perhaps the only yoga you do is intense kundalini yoga, then i can see how the two "energies" you would be building could clash in your body, such as your experience that you were describing).

 

i think this was stated well and i agree with this view:

 

The problem with references to "Yoga" is that those who refer to it don't really have a sound understanding of what it implies.

 

Yog means "to Join", from the skt root word of "yuj". The Yoga that should be referred to is Ashtanga Yoga (which also includes the Ashtanga Vinyasa or Mysore-style of Yoga practiced by students of Late Sri Pattabhi Jois), as presented in texts such as Yoga Sutras of Patanjali.

 

I find the various schools of Yoga in the West highly frivolous and shallow with extreme focus on the physical/body/butt-firming aspects of the Hatha Yoga practice (which is physical component of Ashtanga), without presenting the philosophical/spiritual component that goes (precedes and follows the Hatha Practice) with it.

 

If someone goes to the gym and only does right hand bicep curls, the only thing they'll develop is the right hand's bicep. Same thing with doing only the Asana (hatha) portion of Yoga. Yoga is a lifestyle and it can be incorporated into any practice regimen, including (with many overlaps), Taoist practices.

 

The system of taiji chuan I learn suggests that Taiji Chuan is a ladder where the sequence of development bottom-up is:

 

martial ability

healing

spiritual transformation/reconnect with Tao.

 

As our training progresses, we spend more and more time doing meditation and our focus is predominantly on single-form practice (but we also spend considerable amount of time on push hands and weapons). Each of these is a cultivation technique by itself and work on developing one (or several) of the 8 energies of the 13-basic, in conjunction with the 5 directions. Also, our style of Taiji Chuan is not considered secular but very much Taoist. My grandmaster learned from a Taoist monk, in the traditional mode of transmission...

 

So evidently, Taiji Chuan (the system I learnt) has same ultimate goal as Yoga (except the martial part, though Hatha Yoga practice can help with physical development that is needed for martial arts -- see Kalaripayyat for instance).

 

Chakras and Dan Tiens are not entirely different animals. Chakras and Dan Tiens are the same. The 3 chakras emphasized in Taoist practices are the Swadhisthana, Anahata and Ajna/Sahasrara (lower, middle and upper dan tiens/crownpoint).

 

The structure of the lowest chakra (muladhara) is actually considered to be part of Swadhisthana, where the mula is considered a kanda (bulb) of the swadhisthana (kind of like an old thermometer with the tip inverted). The mulabandha (or mula lock) is the same as tucking in the tail bone during cultivation. There are two other locks used in Yoga (the Uddiyana Bandha and the Jalandhara Bandha) and they are used to regulate the flow of prana through the meridians. Anyone who has practiced Hatha yoga with breathing synchronization will have learned that a sudden rush of prana can rush into the head if the chin (Jalandhara) lock is not applied. That is simply the nature of the technique. There are yogic techniques of circulation too...unfortunately not too many westerners know about it that's all).

 

The Manipura is also part of the Anahata (you should read BK Frantzis' description of it from the Taoist perspective, where he refers to the middle dan tien actually comprising of both the heart center as well as the plexus area).

 

There are not just 7 chakras in the traditional yogic system, there are many. The seven are what the Yogis considered the most important, that's all.

 

Also, the purpose of Yoga is not to raise the Kundalini. Kundalini rises as a part of the process automatically (you don't have to do "KUndalini yoga" to do this). The purpose of yoga is to stop the modifications of the mind (or still the mind), such that mediation and eventually samadhi is possible. Taoist meditation too does this -- using Taiji Chuan or other cultivation techniques to still the mind, till real meditation is possible...

[doc benway]

Quite succinctly I always understood the 'supreme ultimate' to actually refer to the spine because of its important role in every movement we make.

 

That's an interesting perspective.

I figured you understood the translation - probably better than me.

 

 

 

It was merely in answer to 'new dawn fades' who expressed the incorrect view that Taijiquan does nothing for your back. How absurd!

In the beginning, it is difficult to believe the effect certain exercises can have, particularly when they appear subtle. So, for example, the benefits of standing meditation are enormous but to the uninitiated, it's tough to imagine what simple standing still can accomplish. One only "gets it" with a substantial investment of practice. Neigong is extremely effective and generally involves no physical movement whatsoever. Yoga's effects on the spine are much more obvious and explicit but not necessarily any more valuable, IMO and IME.

[fiveelementtao]

Immortal sister,

I agree with you that for most people, Hatha Yoga and Tai Chi are very complementary... No, I didn't think that you were practicing kundalini yoga. But kundalini is central to all schools of yoga. Hatha yoga does stimulate kundalini, but it does so very slowly. In India, Hatha and Kundalini yoga were originally linked practices. Back in the day, The practice of Yoga was not as widespread as it is today. Yoga has split into many schools, but way back when, it was a complete science with many levels, Hatha yoga being the introductory level. ( by the way, the vast majority of yoga taught in the west is hatha yoga regardless of the name. Ashtnga, bikram etc... most of it is still Hatha.) but back then...If someone wanted to be a yogi, (Someone who sought Union with the Divine) that person had to find a Guru and ask to be accepted as a disciple. The first thing that person was taught was Hatha Yoga. This discipline would open the sun and moon channels (Ida and Pingala) and strengthen the body and nervous system for the higher levels of yoga, Kundalini Yoga being one of them... Today people say, "I practice Hatha, I practice Kundalini yoga, I practice Raja yoga, I practice nada yoga, I practice Karma yoga, etc.."... Back in the day these schools were all part of one science called yoga. It got broken into little pieces over time as the discipline spread and the higher levels were kept more secretive... The predominant school of yoga that came to the west was Hatha because westerners went to India seeking to learn Yoga. Like all beginners, they were taught Hatha, then came back to the west teaching yoga... not realizing that what they had learned was just the introductory level... And over time, here yoga has degenerated into "yoga booty ballet..." and as dwai points out, very few people have any idea what yoga was originally about...

 

Also, the purpose of Yoga is not to raise the Kundalini...Chakras and Dan Tiens are the same.

 

Dwai, my friend... seriously, I have no interest in an ego joust with you. If you want to be right... I concede the floor to you... Yoga, Tai Chi the same...Dan tiens and chakras are the same... Samadhi and the state of Tao... the same... It's all the same...Sorry for my misunderstanding....

Edited December 9, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[C T]

. And over time, here yoga has degenerated into "yoga booty ballet..."

Yes.. Bootylini Yoga Very very chic!

[New Dawn Fades]

Jesus Christ! Are all you morons that use this forum for free advertising so fucking full of yourselves? Do you ever get a brown tint to your vision?

 

Wow how much experience do you have with real Chi Kung? Or IMA?

More than you Twirp.

 

But I want to thank you all for agreeing with me, that chi kung is better than tai chi for your back, while saying I don't know anything.

 

______________________________________

 

'Real'? Probably more real than you can imagine or have seen, but no matter.

If it doesn't matter then why post for effect?

The usual: those who know don't need to be told and for the rest it's a waste of hot air, and you may well be 'one of the rest', that's why.

 

I'm no master (in fact far from it) however I have studied with some very amazing people where I live and in Beijing and Wudangshan. These are the places where one can find 'real' Taijiquan. Please tell me about your trips there?

Oh, OK, I guess none of the top masters left China and moved to the West in secret, and I didn't spend the last 25 years learning from any of them either. Nope, there's no 'real' tai chi here, just hot air.

 

I think you are mistaken. If Taijiquan does not do much for your back please tell me what you think 'supreme ultimate' refers to?

It refers to fighting.

Edited December 10, 2009 by New Dawn Fades

[Aetherous]

Do you ever get a brown tint to your vision?

 

I certainly do.

 

Not saying that about anyone else...only about myself.

 

It blocks the ability to learn something new when you already know what you're talking about. And why would I be happy with the knowledge I have, when I could throw it away for something much greater?

 

[New Dawn Fades]

You know very little of the SYSTEM of Taiji.

 

There is the form, but that is only the beginning.

 

There is also chi kung, weapons and push hands as part of the complete system.

 

Push hands on its own does all the the things you just said that Taiji doesn't.

 

Learn the SYSTEM of Taiji and you will get everything you need. And probably more than you thought was available!

 

Yes, I guess you are right, evidently I don't know anything about the SYSTEM of tai chi since the part of it I've spent several years on now, the part that comes after push hands, isn't even listed here.

 

Also, keep in mind that this moron, Eviander, who wrote the first post, doesn't like to exercise, and doesn't want muscle tone because he doesn't want sex appeal. I was writing to him and it was mainly about the form of tai chi, and yes, some teachers will have you do chi kung before the form but grand masters don't, they expect you to do that before class.

 

 

Doesn't want muscle tone because he doesn't want sex appeal

 

i see none of you moron experts told him that strengthening lies at the foundation of cultivation and that health IS sex appeal.

[doc benway]

Jesus Christ! .... all you moron's .... so fucking full of yourselves? ... you Twirp.

.... this moron, .... sex appeal.... you moron experts .... sex appeal.

Spoken like a truely sublime master of Tai Ji Quan and Qi Gong.

Please teach us more master....

[lino]

Spoken like a truely sublime master of Tai Ji Quan and Qi Gong.

Please teach us more master....

 

 

ROFL

 

I guess he does make Gary Clyman look saintly

[New Dawn Fades]

Spoken like a truely sublime master of Tai Ji Quan and Qi Gong.

Please teach us more master....

 

OK, "go screw yourself"

[松永道]

Taijiquan, as a martial art, is a philosophical system of martial application.

 

Just how deeply someone has cultivated is not only evident in his/her push hands or free sparring but is also demonstrated in other outlets, like debating on this forum.

[bindo]

http://surasa.net/aurobindo/synthesis/part-2.html#ch27

 

Sri Aurobindo on hatha yoga. It's quite good.

[Ryan T.]

i see none of you moron experts told him that strengthening lies at the foundation of cultivation and that health IS sex appeal.

 

You may not be aware of this but there is a difference between being argumentative(a good thing) and verbally aggressive(generally not so good).

 

You may be trying to back up a good argument but you do it with unprovoked insults attached.

 

I was only trying to illustrate one piece of how Taiji can be good for your back. If you feel insulted by somebody trying to offer ideas other than your own you may not want to trade posts on a public forum. And if you do want to be on a public forum I suggest you respect the rules of that forum(no insult policies and such) as well as giving basic respect to the other members of that forum. Don't you expect the same?

Edited December 10, 2009 by Ryan T.

[New Dawn Fades]

Just how deeply someone has cultivated is not only evident in his/her push hands or free sparring but is also demonstrated in other outlets, like debating on this forum.

 

You are assuming I want to 'debate' on this forum with these two bit experts, it would be best if you didn't assume such things my friend.

Edited December 10, 2009 by New Dawn Fades

[松永道]

Just how deeply someone has cultivated is not only evident in his/her push hands or free sparring but is also demonstrated in other outlets, like debating on this forum.

You are assuming I want to 'debate' on this forum with these two bit experts, it would be best if you didn't assume such things my friend.

 

You're assuming that was only for you.

 

The comment, like any incoming energy, can strike, can be blocked, can be avoided, or can be transformed.

[doc benway]

OK, "go screw yourself"

Done!

It was challenging, but rewarding in the end....

 

What now?

 

 

I'll stop now - it's not my intention to pick fights. I would hope that we could discuss things with a degree of mutual respect and civility in a forum dedicated to spiritual growth....

[New Dawn Fades]

You are assuming I want to 'debate' on this forum with these two bit experts, it would be best if you didn't assume such things my friend.

You're assuming that was only for you.

 

Point well taken, I see how it can apply to some of the others here too ROFL. This place can give a person a persecution complex. I suppose I was pointing out the same thing as you in my own charming way.