Yoga vs Tai Chi

[Marblehead]

Are we finished assuming now?

 

(I know, I still sometimes do that and it normally results in a fatal error. Me still learning.)

 

Peace & Love!

[markern]

Fiveelementtao,

This was my main disagreement with your post in the Kundalini thread... You are speaking very authoritatively...more so than anyone else. Dwai said "In my experience" and "this is my opinion", whereas you don't say those things whatsoever.

 

Have you attained the end result in Taoism or in Tantra, to be able to say that they aren't the same? If you've not attained the end result in either discipline, then you're not an authority, and should also simply be saying "in my experience" and not claiming to know everything.

 

I hope this doesn't come off as offensive or hostile at all...because I do respect you as someone older and more experienced than myself, and there is a kinship I feel, since we practice similar things. So no harm intended.

 

 

Actually one of mantak chias students/teachers first reached first path (first level of budhist enlightenment) doing vipassana like stuff (possibly with some energetic stuff added not sure) then lost it (not that uncommon) but got back to the same place doing Chias meditations. This is interesting because it shows that budhist enlightenment and taoist enlightenment is the same, at least at the lower levels. It is also interesting for the debate about stilness type meditations vs energetic practices as some, like Michael Winn, claim that stilness practices can not produce the same results.

 

This guy had practiced quite extensively in Kabalistic, egyption, african and yogic systems in addition to what he did with buddhism and taoism. He said that the energywork at the lower levels could be very, very different but in his experience the closer you got to the top the more similar they became and at the level of the start of actual enlightenment exactly the same. Furthermore, he had gone through al the Jhanas in budhism. In CHias system he went through all the jhanas by following fusion to get to the first and then jumping jhanas upwards with the various kan and li practices. I am sure the jhanas had slightly different flavours when reached through different means but budhists say that this happens in buddhist practice also depending on which object of absorption you use to get there. FOr example if you use a coulored disc your experience will be slightly different than if you use an emotion or a candle flame. Essentially though the jhanas will be the same.

 

Varjhadirja (spelled right?) on this sboard went through all the budhist jhanas when he did Sidha Yoga, now he practices tibetan budhism and has gone through them in that training as well. So we see then that the deepest meditation states up untill actual enlightenment are the same in budhism, yoga and taoism and that quite possibly, depending on the faith one have in his claim of lost and regained enlightenment (he was very humble and down to earth and seemed to have no desire to claim anything special for himself and had his experience verified by his lamas) also the lowest level of enlightenment are also the same.

 

However, as mentioned, he did say that a lot of the energetic work to get to these places coupld be quite different. He also said that all that work could play a major role in how the person actually turned out once enlightened because it would influence the personality and energy of the practioner, although the enlightenment would create a similar core, these differences might make a big practical difference. Still, he combined various stuff he learned from several of these traditions and has held workshops on the realtionship between the jhanas and the microcosmic orbit (and presumably other taoist stuff) and incorporated several yogic techniques into this (like chanting) he also practices regulary a lot with budhist monks but also comes to tao garden from time to time and presumably learns more taoist work there.

 

Based on this it makes sense to me that some energetic practices from various traditions would not go toghether well but also that are a lot of benefit from mixing certain stuff as well. KAP has also mixed a lot and if such mixing in general is dangerous the practioners should have exploded by now while the opposite seems to be the case. My own meditaiton teacher has also trained extensively in various taoist practices including Chias stuff but has also been a monk in the tibetan tradition for 4 years. He says he has never had anything but benefit from integrating what he learned in these two traditions and for him the energywork was essentially the same. Taking into acount that he has done both systems to very deep levels he should know what he is talking about. He also said that he had found as big differences between certain teachings and traditions in tibet in terms of how energy and elements where worked with and explained as he had encountered between budhist and taoist teachings and that training in tibetan energywork with seemingly contradictory explanations of centers etc. where of course done regularily. Furhtermore, in tibet you find practices that are extreemly similar to indian hatha yoga, you also find practices that are extreemly similar to qigong. THese work perfectly well togheter in tibet.

 

And also one of the AYP practioners said that the"kunlun energy" he experienced when doing kunlun was something he had encountered several times while doing AYP.

Edited December 10, 2009 by markern

[Yuen Biao]

That's an interesting perspective.

I figured you understood the translation - probably better than me.

In the beginning, it is difficult to believe the effect certain exercises can have, particularly when they appear subtle. So, for example, the benefits of standing meditation are enormous but to the uninitiated, it's tough to imagine what simple standing still can accomplish. One only "gets it" with a substantial investment of practice. Neigong is extremely effective and generally involves no physical movement whatsoever. Yoga's effects on the spine are much more obvious and explicit but not necessarily any more valuable, IMO and IME.

 

I do not disagree at all with anything you say. I think the correlation between Taijiquan and Qigong is closer than many think that's for sure.

 

 

 

 

Jesus Christ! Are all you morons that use this forum for free advertising so fucking full of yourselves? Do you ever get a brown tint to your vision?

More than you Twirp.

 

But I want to thank you all for agreeing with me, that chi kung is better than tai chi for your back, while saying I don't know anything.

Now you are showing signs of delusion. There is no need to have the opinion that the two systems are completely different.

 

The usual: those who know don't need to be told and for the rest it's a waste of hot air, and you may well be 'one of the rest', that's why.

People who talk like this do so because they have something to prove, it's really just waffle isn't it?

 

Oh, OK, I guess none of the top masters left China and moved to the West in secret, and I didn't spend the last 25 years learning from any of them either. Nope, there's no 'real' tai chi here, just hot air.

I am not saying that there are not any great masters in the Western world...besides if you really have been practising Taijiquan for twenty-five years I'm surprised you are not aware of the great conditioning that it can give your spine, shoulders, hips etc. Maybe you should seek a better more holistic style of Taiji?

 

It refers to fighting.

Sure in a literal sense but try think metaphorically perhaps? Taiji is deeper than you again give it credit.

[soaring crane]

[Aetherous]

It wasn't fun, it was serious. No humor. It hurt.

 

Why tense up when you inhale?

 

These types of yoga classes are really bad for your energy. I was going to one for a while that I liked but ultimately had to quit.

 

It's a good workout for those who aren't at all sensitive and like to beat the crap out of themselves.

[immortal_sister]

i've done a lot of yoga over the years and i have come to one simple conclusion. no matter what name they give the type of yoga they do, if all they do is "flow yoga" (no static asanas), if its "hot yoga", and/or if they never mention anything remotely spiritual about the practice of yoga or talk about meditation, then it is merely exercise, and not actually yoga. nothing wrong with it per say, but it won't get you anywhere beyond the physical.

[fiveelementtao]

Hi Markern,

You make some good points. This thread and the kundalini thread has allowed me to really work through alot of my thoughts about my experience with mixing traditions, so I am glad about it. It seems that alot of taoist traditions do work well with yogic ones on some levels. My experience may be unique because the Mao Shan stuff is very unique even among taoist traditions.

 

So, even though I still think that Kundalini based work has a different purpose than old school taoism, I must admit that I can't really speak for all other taoist traditions. It seems to me there are alot of fire based, bottom up taoist practices that probably are very compatible with Kundalini based stuff. So, I am going to officially retire from this debate and only share what I know from my tradition...

[Aetherous]

Mike,

 

At least from what I know of the Mao shan stuff, it can be well blended with many tantric techniques. I've learned fire methods, and upward flowing methods. It just has to be done in the right way. The "heaven to earth" path that you describe, in my opinion, is just pointing to a more harmonious way of practicing. The way that true hatha (tantric) yoga is supposed to be done. Wei wu wei.

 

I'd rather talk about this stuff one on one, with people who care (I know you do, but others reading don't), in a place that won't record what we're saying...hopefully this isn't taken as me debating or trying to prove you wrong. Just sharing my point of view as someone who knows the Kunlun aspects of Shangqing stuff.

[lino]

 

Oh, OK, I guess none of the top masters left China and moved to the West in secret, and I didn't spend the last 25 years learning from any of them either. Nope, there's no 'real' tai chi here, just hot air.

 

 

I'll take your word for it

 

*running away*

[fiveelementtao]

Mike,

 

At least from what I know of the Mao shan stuff, it can be well blended with many tantric techniques. I've learned fire methods, and upward flowing methods. It just has to be done in the right way. The "heaven to earth" path that you describe, in my opinion, is just pointing to a more harmonious way of practicing. The way that true hatha (tantric) yoga is supposed to be done. Wei wu wei.

 

I'd rather talk about this stuff one on one, with people who care (I know you do, but others reading don't), in a place that won't record what we're saying...hopefully this isn't taken as me debating or trying to prove you wrong. Just sharing my point of view as someone who knows the Kunlun aspects of Shangqing stuff.

 

Hi Scotty,

As always I appreciate your kind manner. I appreciate your experience. What you say may be true for some. (I was actually in the midst of starting a new thread concerning the mixing of KL and other traditions.) I would agree that IF it is possible to mix the two it would have to be done very carefully. But, I had always been told by my teachers not to mix it with kundalini, Max has expressed warnings about mixing traditions and transmissions. My experience with almost 20 years of Mao Shan Spirit Fighting has shown me that it is disastrous to mix them. (I didn't think so for many years.) It may just be that it won't mix with Spirit Fighting or it may be that it doesn't mix with Mao Shan at all and doesn't become apparent until higher levels... I don't know. But I can say with all confidence, Kundalini should NOT be mixed with Spirit Fighting... No way!!!

 

So, my experience is heavily influenced by my Spirit Fighting training. That stuff is the most potent energy I have ever felt. In the beginning I was able to mix my spirit fighting and kundalini yoga, no problem, but as I was getting to the higher levels of SF (which among other things, opens up the higher centers) the two energies would not mix. AT ALL...

 

I have some different ideas than you of what heaven to earth means but my views are instrinsically connected to the necessary SF mind set... But, it is possible approach KL differently from a purely meditative viewpoint. SF is a very ruthless mindset...So, you have your experience, so I can't speak about that... And it may be right for you... So, I don't wish to minimize your understanding...

 

So,I could go into more detail but, I'm sure it would bore and annoy most everyone else...

 

But I also sense that you have an emotional attachment to mixing the two and even though I honestly feel differently than you do based on my experience, if mixing is something you want to do and are not asking my opinion... It makes no sense for me to try and convince you otherwise. I am just trying to help others avoid the pain I have had to go through in healing myself...

 

You may be right that for you KL can be merged with Kundalini stuff, but I would still keep on eye on it and see what happens in a few years as your KL energy increases....

my .02 take it for what it's worth...

Mike

[Aetherous]

PM'd...

[markern]

Hi Markern,

You make some good points. This thread and the kundalini thread has allowed me to really work through alot of my thoughts about my experience with mixing traditions, so I am glad about it. It seems that alot of taoist traditions do work well with yogic ones on some levels. My experience may be unique because the Mao Shan stuff is very unique even among taoist traditions.

 

So, even though I still think that Kundalini based work has a different purpose than old school taoism, I must admit that I can't really speak for all other taoist traditions. It seems to me there are alot of fire based, bottom up taoist practices that probably are very compatible with Kundalini based stuff. So, I am going to officially retire from this debate and only share what I know from my tradition...

 

Hi Fiveelementtao!

 

Your posts and perspectives are very interesting and I enjoy reading them. They do make me want to think mixing stuff through well whenever I do it.

[Stigweard]

Jesus Christ! Are all you morons that use this forum for free advertising so fucking full of yourselves? Do you ever get a brown tint to your vision?

More than you Twirp.

 

But I want to thank you all for agreeing with me, that chi kung is better than tai chi for your back, while saying I don't know anything.

 

______________________________________

If it doesn't matter then why post for effect?

The usual: those who know don't need to be told and for the rest it's a waste of hot air, and you may well be 'one of the rest', that's why.

Oh, OK, I guess none of the top masters left China and moved to the West in secret, and I didn't spend the last 25 years learning from any of them either. Nope, there's no 'real' tai chi here, just hot air.

It refers to fighting.

Hiya New Dawn Fades,

 

This post was a step over the line of our Moderation Guidelines.

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=160949

 

Normally we would have just sent you a PM but you have disabled your ability to receive messages or your inbox is too full. For this reason a public notice has been made.

 

Please be more respectful in future.

 

Stig

 

<-- Moderation Team -->

[dwai]

[gendao]

The answer is it depends!

 

I do both Taoist Tai Chi and Yoga and they have the same objectives and work towards same goal. The Union of Body, Energy and Spirit.

 

Yoga need not be a pain at all, at least not if you're doing it right. Yoga isn't about being a pretzel. Yoga is about using the body and breath to still the mind (The goal of Yoga is to stop the modifications of the Mind -- Yogas Chitta Vritti Nirodhah -- Patanjali Yoga Sutras).

 

The Asanas or postures/forms are only a part of Yoga. Yoga is called Ashtanga (or Eight-limbed) because of the following:

 

Yama (abstinence)

Niyama (Rules/disciple)

Asana (Forms/Postures)

Pranayama (Chi development by Breathing)

Pratyahara (Sense withdrawal -- go from outward seeking to inward seeking consciousness)

Dharana (focus)

Dhyana (meditation)

Samadhi (state of meditative absorption or union of body, consciousness and spirit)

 

Taiji Chuan or any other Taoist techniques ultimate goal is to reach this Samadhi state. Either using one or multiple combinations of techniques.

 

What works for you is also going to change with time. At times Tai Chi is best, at times Asana practice is best. But both are complementary and will help in releasing blockages and opening up the channels for better and stronger Chi-flow.

Cool, never heard Ashtanga Yoga explained so succinctly.

As you know Hatha Yoga is primarily concerned with opening the Ida and pingala channels and strengthening the body and nervous system for opening the shushumna channel in the spine for higher yogic techniques to facilitate the rise of Kundalini. The purpose of Hatha Yoga from the beginning is a hindu yogic spiritual one designed to aid the practitioner into deeper seated meditations and ultimately spiritual liberation.

 

Tai Chi Chuan was created to be a very lethal martial art. It uses Chi energy, not for spiritual reasons but because chi power is the most effective fighting weapon. The health benefits and feelings of spiritual euphoria are enjoyable side effects of Tai Chi (and certainly can be used toward spiritual enlightenment) in the beginning but are not the initial purpose or end goal of Tai Chi. On the battlefield, one cannot take the time to "bliss out" in a samadhi state when someone is coming at you with a hatchet...

 

At the Higher levels yoga is about spiritual liberation... at the higher levels, Tai Chi is a killing art..

 

Many will, no doubt, take offense at the idea of tai chi's purpose being to kill... But remember, hundreds of years ago in medieval China, Chi was not just a spiritual concept. It was an everyday reality for Chinese culture and as such was used for both spiritual and mundane purposes.

 

The idea that Chi and more specifically Tai Chi as being only about peace, love and enlightenment is a modern western concept seen mostly in "Tai Chi for Health" type practices.

Isn't the core practice of Taijiquan supposed to be zhan zhuang, though (according to Yiquan)? Which is a static qigong?

 

And a lot of Taijiquan masters also have opened their MCO, can rotate & move their dantians and may use the various postures to open meridians, yes? So, there does also appear to be some neidan included in the art...although that part is probably rarely taught and only at the higher levels. And can probably be learned separately more efficiently if that is your true goal.

 

Although ironically, without such neidan achievements made...the art is pretty much martially useless. Just form, no gong.

 

So, I have the same sneaking suspicion as dwai that Taijiquan was originally an offshoot off neidan. Neidan cultivators may have built up their dantians, opened their MCOs & meridians (for spiritual evolution)...and then found various movements that enhanced qi flow to open their macrocosmic orbits. They also found that with all this qi & open meridians, they had attained a supernormal degree of power. This power could be used in H2H combat, amongst other things - but was basically a side effect of neidan. Later on, people may have focused more upon the silky movements than the neidan, but that's also what made the art effectively useless. I think that Taijiquan without neidan is like a car without an engine.

If I had to summarize in a few words the major difference, It is this...

Yoga is meant to burn away karma of past lives by igniting kundalini. This either shortens the amount of subsequent lives to be lived, or results in liberation of the soul to move to next level.

 

Taoism, especially early Taoism (Such as Shang Ch'ing which we both practice) is about transforming the body, preserving the consciousness of the individual and transforming them into celestial immortals.

 

Yoga is about pyschological transformation with physical transformation as a side effect, Tao is about physical transformation with psychological transformation as a side effect. In early taoism there was not a concept of "enlightenment". That idea came from the introduction of buddhism. That is not my opinion...

 

If anyone chooses to study the literature, scriptures and ancient writings of both religions. These differences are obvious. We, in the west, are so amazed at the energetic component, many of us do not study these arts in their original context. In the traditional contexts of both of these disciplines, religious and philosophical understanding was integral to the teaching of energetic disciplines. We, in the west do not do this. We just like to "play with energy"...

For instance, the chakras... Taoists do not use chakras... Why not? The answer lies in the purpose of the chakras. The chakras are not energy centers. Dan tiens are energy centers designed to collect and process energy. Why? because it takes energy to transform the body into one of light... The chakras do not do this. I used to think that taoists just simply didn't emphasize all of the chakras. But the more I looked into it. the chakras and the dan tiens are totally different animals...

 

The chakras are gateways to psycholigical realms. The chakras are for the transformation of kundalini as she rises through the spine. (i.e. root chakra = material issues, security etc...) As the kundalini moves through the chakras, the person burns through their karma (emotional, psycholigical issues) and transforms their understanding

Now, if the chakras were important to taoist goals (i.e., becoming a celestial immortal) the Taoists would have discovered them.

 

When a yogi reaches samadhi they leave their body behind. Taoist immortals take their body with them...

Thanks, I like those comparisons. Edited December 11, 2009 by vortex

[New Dawn Fades]

Stig

 

<-- Moderation Team -->

 

 

Wow Stig, you are a moderator here? Now that is a surprise. What a great burden if you have to actually read all the posts on this place - or do you just wait for complaints?

Edited December 12, 2009 by New Dawn Fades

[New Dawn Fades]

You may not be aware of this but there is a difference between being argumentative(a good thing) and verbally aggressive(generally not so good).

 

You may be trying to back up a good argument but you do it with unprovoked insults attached.

 

I was only trying to illustrate one piece of how Taiji can be good for your back. If you feel insulted by somebody trying to offer ideas other than your own you may not want to trade posts on a public forum. And if you do want to be on a public forum I suggest you respect the rules of that forum(no insult policies and such) as well as giving basic respect to the other members of that forum. Don't you expect the same?

 

I get along fine on some forums. Concerning aggression, some here use it and insults but they do it in a 'nice' enough way so that it goes under the radar of the moderators, a form of cowardice. I slap that kind in the face right at the start ... sometimes, particularly here on this forum. Notice that most of them are advertising their classes here and they have this territoriality thing going on, which reminds me of something my dad used to say: "there's less competition at the top".

 

Anyway, I'll restate what I was pointing to earlier about the tai chi and the back. What I said was that while tai chi is good for a lot of things it doesn't do much for your back. I was talking about what Eviander thinks of tai chi: the form, NOT standing postures, NOT the wimpy chi kung they do for warmups, JUST the form. Of course I'm comparing it to a good system of nei kung, which is much much better for your back than the tai chi form.

 

Naturally people without the experience of a good nei kung system (which is most here) will think differently.

 

I think it was you who implied, in response to my earlier statement, that the part that comes after push hands is sparring, but I wasn't referring to that, as far as I'm concerned sparring is an extension push hands training, and if taken too seriously is like learning it wrong. I know what the 'experts' will think about that statement.

 

The part that I was referring to that comes after push hands is stealing the opponents balance, which makes them helpless, and using it to apply the thousands of ways there are to kill people without really trying. I've practiced with some cold hearted killers, peoiple who enjoy killing, people who teach top level killing arts to the CIA and other special forces, guys that have killed more people than I've made love to, and I lost count a long time ago; but if you steal their balance when they try to hit you they become helpless for a second, which is more than enough time.

 

Now, we may surmise that some of the experts here never heard of or have seen the tai chi way of stealing the balance of another, which can often be done without touching them, and so ... let the shit storm begin

 

People who talk like this do so because they have something to prove, it's really just waffle isn't it?

 

Prove something on a forum? On a forum like this? You've got to be kidding, I would much rather leave you in the dark.

Edited December 12, 2009 by New Dawn Fades

[EagleShen]

 

For instance, the chakras... Taoists do not use chakras... Why not? The answer lies in the purpose of the chakras. The chakras are not energy centers. Dan tiens are energy centers designed to collect and process energy. Why? because it takes energy to transform the body into one of light... The chakras do not do this. I used to think that taoists just simply didn't emphasize all of the chakras. But the more I looked into it. the chakras and the dan tiens are totally different animals...

 

The chakras are gateways to psycholigical realms. The chakras are for the transformation of kundalini as she rises through the spine. (i.e. root chakra = material issues, security etc...) As the kundalini moves through the chakras, the person burns through their karma (emotional, psycholigical issues) and transforms their understanding

Now, if the chakras were important to taoist goals (i.e., becoming a celestial immortal) the Taoists would have discovered them.

 

When a yogi reaches samadhi they leave their body behind. Taoist immortals take their body with them...

 

Re the chakras, i agree somewhat with your description of them, but they are energy centers, just very different from the dan tiens, and yes some daoist systems do use them, they are 'collection points' for the organ chi/emotions etc, which makes a lot of sense to me.

 

Re yogic samadhi, yes many traditions are focussed on leaving the body, but if you go back far enough there is not this emphasis, check out the 18 Siddha Tradition (18 practitioners that achieved the golden light body and physical immortality), best know practitioner being Babaji Nagaraj, who is reported to be still alive today (1800 years old). Taking your body with you is an accepted practice in Tibetan Buddhism and the more tantric practices.

 

Well...this topic has really made me decide that it is worth putting aside the time to practice both these arts..it does seem from the information given that it will be quite rewarding to do so..

 

Doing both is great, i'd recommend focussing on learning one first, it can really help get the subtler transmission of it - after doing tai chi for 8 years everyday yoga was amazing i can tell you, a lot better than when i'd done it 8 years beforehand.

[Marblehead]

The part that I was referring to that comes after push hands is stealing the opponents balance, which makes them helpless, ...

 

Actually, I would agree with this as it is a natural progression, IMO.

 

Peace & Love!

[Yuen Biao]

....

 

Anyway, I'll restate what I was pointing to earlier about the tai chi and the back. What I said was that while tai chi is good for a lot of things it doesn't do much for your back. I was talking about what Eviander thinks of tai chi: the form, NOT standing postures, NOT the wimpy chi kung they do for warmups, JUST the form. Of course I'm comparing it to a good system of nei kung, which is much much better for your back than the tai chi form.

 

Naturally people without the experience of a good nei kung system (which is most here) will think differently.

Daoyin Yangsheng Gong.

 

The part that I was referring to that comes after push hands is stealing the opponents balance, which makes them helpless, and using it to apply the thousands of ways there are to kill people without really trying. I've practiced with some cold hearted killers, peoiple who enjoy killing, people who teach top level killing arts to the CIA and other special forces, guys that have killed more people than I've made love to, and I lost count a long time ago; but if you steal their balance when they try to hit you they become helpless for a second, which is more than enough time.

There you go trying to prove yourself again; it sounds desperate and hollow though!

 

Now, we may surmise that some of the experts here never heard of or have seen the tai chi way of stealing the balance of another, which can often be done without touching them, and so ... let the shit storm begin

Prove something on a forum? On a forum like this? You've got to be kidding, I would much rather leave you in the dark.

 

 

You misunderstand, I was not asking for your help at all and nor do I need it the fact that you imply I do is actually very telling!

On your former point about 'borrowing an opponent's energy' I have seen that in respect to what my teacher can do with their Taijiquan; and again their teacher Shi Ming would often demonstrate this on video (it's on youtube).

Edited December 14, 2009 by Yuen Biao