Why is creativity considered a feminine trait when women don't create anything except babies?

[Agape]

It isn't my intention to be sexist or whatnot. It is easy to see though that there are differences between males and females and I am just pointing out that this assumption of creativity being a feminine trait seems to be an incorrect one from my experience. I don't dispute that women have their own complementary traits to men's just that creativity I cannot see as being anything other than a male trait.

 

This has been niggling me for a few days. In all the yin yang and other spiritual bent texts they always talk about the 'feminine polarity' being creative. If that is so, females themselves should have the highest abundance of feminine energy. As such they should be the MOST creative. I see people trying to defend this position by saying that it's just a feminine trait which males poses and use but as I just stated women themselves would obviously have more of this being FEMALE and thus by analogy would be more creative but this is, from my experience, categorically incorrect.

 

Yet again this has caused me to be more skeptical to the pie in the sky theorizing of most 'spiritual teachings'.

 

Sometimes this spiritual stuff has good insights but often I find it is inaccurate even seemingly arbitrary in its speculation.

 

My first hand experience with the real world indicates that this claim is 100% inaccurate as the hotter the women ie the more feminine her energy is the LESS creative she will be. Anyone who has not lived in total isolation from the opposite sex their whole lives (I guess this might explain why the people making these claims do so as most of the 'spiritual gurus' do indeed live in total isolation from society their whole lives and come up with their elabourate theories while high on gamma waves or whatever whilst living in a cave and most are celibate, many probably never even having had sex at all) will know the hotter the girl the less she has to do to get by. Conversely nearly all creative pursuits have been done so by males either directly or indirectly to either attain the favour of women or as an outlet to distract/circumvent love lost etc/as a cathartic outlet to their pent up libido.

 

Men create and women just enjoy the fruits of men's labour. Everything you see in sight was created by men, not women. I don't deny women are nurturers and all that but they are doing so from the safe nest that males create. Women are the most conservative creatures you can imagine and never dare taking risks instead just huddling within the confines of conformity. These are broad generalizations I know but that is all I wish to scrutinise- the general distribution of a given sample, not an exception such as a masculine lesbian. I really don't see how it could realistically be interpreted any other way.

[Pero]

My first hand experience with the real world indicates that this claim is 100% inaccurate as the hotter the women ie the more feminine her energy is the LESS creative she will be.

 

Who said that "hot" equals feminine?

[voidisyinyang]

Here read this book -- took me a year to get through since the writing style is "creative" -- rococo style.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Sexual-Personae-Deca...n/dp/0679735798

 

It isn't my intention to be sexist or whatnot. It is easy to see though that there are differences between males and females and I am just pointing out that this assumption of creativity being a feminine trait seems to be an incorrect one from my experience. I don't dispute that women have their own complementary traits to men's just that creativity I cannot see as being anything other than a male trait.

 

This has been niggling me for a few days. In all the yin yang and other spiritual bent texts they always talk about the 'feminine polarity' being creative. If that is so, females themselves should have the highest abundance of feminine energy. As such they should be the MOST creative. I see people trying to defend this position by saying that it's just a feminine trait which males poses and use but as I just stated women themselves would obviously have more of this being FEMALE and thus by analogy would be more creative but this is, from my experience, categorically incorrect.

 

Yet again this has caused me to be more skeptical to the pie in the sky theorizing of most 'spiritual teachings'.

 

Sometimes this spiritual stuff has good insights but often I find it is inaccurate even seemingly arbitrary in its speculation.

 

My first hand experience with the real world indicates that this claim is 100% inaccurate as the hotter the women ie the more feminine her energy is the LESS creative she will be. Anyone who has not lived in total isolation from the opposite sex their whole lives (I guess this might explain why the people making these claims do so as most of the 'spiritual gurus' do indeed live in total isolation from society their whole lives and come up with their elabourate theories while high on gamma waves or whatever whilst living in a cave and most are celibate, many probably never even having had sex at all) will know the hotter the girl the less she has to do to get by. Conversely nearly all creative pursuits have been done so by males either directly or indirectly to either attain the favour of women or as an outlet to distract/circumvent love lost etc/as a cathartic outlet to their pent up libido.

 

Men create and women just enjoy the fruits of men's labour. Everything you see in sight was created by men, not women. I don't deny women are nurturers and all that but they are doing so from the safe nest that males create. Women are the most conservative creatures you can imagine and never dare taking risks instead just huddling within the confines of conformity. These are broad generalizations I know but that is all I wish to scrutinise- the general distribution of a given sample, not an exception such as a masculine lesbian. I really don't see how it could realistically be interpreted any other way.

[C T]

Hmm.. its rather ironical that the Poster calls himself 'agape'. If i am not mistaken, the core meaning of agape is Unconditional Love..

 

That says it all. Best not respond any further.

[immortal_sister]

i would have read the actual post if it wasn't for the horribly insulting title of this post.

 

major fail.

[Apech]

 

 

Men create and women just enjoy the fruits of men's labour.

 

 

 

 

Priceless ... ha ha ha.

[Enishi]

More testosterone + greater focus on abstract thinking = greater drive to create something which has a greater impact (whether for good or worse) IMO.

 

Both sexes are creative, just that since most human civilization is very yang skewed, we tend to notice the stuff which is more 'yang', active and outward changing, etc.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Enishi

[fiveelementtao]

Men create and women just enjoy the fruits of men's labour. Everything you see in sight was created by men, not women.

 

(Putting on my rubber gloves so I don't get the poop all over me...)

My friend... You are mistaking industriousness for creativity. There is a difference. Meditate on that.

Based on your post, I am assuming you are a male and possibly young and driven by your gonads. If I am correct, you are viewing the world through hormone tainted eyes. I once felt that way, but I am middle aged and happily married now and can see through the testosterone haze that once blinded me.

 

even though, your conclusion is no longer true.. many women build cities and buildings and many other things nowadays.. but, just for argument's sake, let's assume that you are right and only men build things... Where do you think that drive to build comes from? according to you it is because "nearly all creative pursuits have been done so by males either directly or indirectly to either attain the favour of women or as an outlet to distract/circumvent love lost etc/as a cathartic outlet to their pent up libido."

I don't agree with that, as I said, I think your gonads are working overtime to get you a mate, you are frustrated, and your frustration is creating enemies where they don't exist because you feel the drive to build something so you can attract a mate... but, I digress... As I was saying, even if you are right and men build everything for women to enjoy, it is STILL the feminine that is driving the men to create. So, the female is STILL responsible for all creativity in your world.

But, as I said, ladies, I don't agree so, don't kill me... I think our friend Agape is sincere and desperrately trying to make sense of his own DNA inspired procreative drives...

Edited December 6, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Agape]

This seems like the first sensible answer enishi, that makes sense.

 

Others seem to have recoiled at my controversial topic title such that they didn't offer reasonable counters to my argument.

 

I am happy and open to having my mind changed here I'm just saying this has been my current experience. The whole point of writing it was to open myself to new ideas which others haven't yet ventured to offer.

 

Case in point immortal_sister was unable to create a reasonably thought out response as she had too much of an emotional reaction to be able to think clearly. lol I'm just being facetious.

 

Also a nod goes to drewhempel for the rec.

[fiveelementtao]

This seems like the first sensible answer enishi, that makes sense.

Case in point immortal_sister was unable to create a reasonably thought out response as she had too much of an emotional reaction to be able to think clearly. lol I'm just being facetious.

Careful... you won't attract a mate this way... Don't complain, go with the flow of your hormones... follow your instincts... go build that fort, and get that "hot babe"... You'll be much happier... after a good ejaculation, you'll be stupider and won't have the inclination to think so much, but you'll be much happier...

[Agape]

Yes you said it right five, I am sincere and do not mean disrespect I am just genuinely conveying my (perhaps offensive) perspectives in the hope that I can better understand what is what.

 

Obviously something doesn't sit right with me somewhere which is what impelled me to write the post in the first place and I am happy to rearrange my belief systems should better ones reveal themselves.

 

I also agree that it is the feminine that impels the creativity in men that doesn't mean it is in itself creative though, only indirectly so. If it wasn't for my 'gonads' I'd be a total nihilist.

 

I would go so far as to say dopamine is life itself. It drives everything in life. I am definitely a dopamine addict and I just equate more as better and the best dopamine high I get is from 'getting my rocks off'.

 

I'm also intrigued by the 'middle aged perspective' that you have, as I have often wondered how tinted my perspectives are by my age. I am indeed 25 years old and as I have been told this is the height of my libido. But to try and stifle my natural urges I feel would be an obscene butchering of my natural inclinations so what's a horny devil to do but fulfil those inclinations?

[Encephalon]

This seems like the first sensible answer enishi, that makes sense.

 

Others seem to have recoiled at my controversial topic title such that they didn't offer reasonable counters to my argument.

I am happy and open to having my mind changed here I'm just saying this has been my current experience. The whole point of writing it was to open myself to new ideas which others haven't yet ventured to offer.

 

Case in point immortal_sister was unable to create a reasonably thought out response as she had too much of an emotional reaction to be able to think clearly. lol I'm just being facetious.

 

Also a nod goes to drewhempel for the rec.

 

You aren't presenting an argument; you're vomiting a mass of delusion, misinformation, cultural and sexual biases all over the floor and expecting all of us to gather round and bare the burden of picking through the choicest morsels.

This is a regular occurance in this forum because the average age is very young and the educational level is modest. I don't wish to beat anyone up for being either young or uneducated. These are forgivable offenses!

 

Actually, Agape, your "argument" as you call it, is more of an emotional reaction that is robbing you of clear thinking, as you facetiously described Immortal Sister's "dilemma" (and I'm not being facetious).

 

Cheers.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Blasto

[immortal_sister]

 

Others seem to have recoiled at my controversial topic title such that they didn't offer reasonable counters to my argument.

 

{...}

Case in point immortal_sister was unable to create a reasonably thought out response as she had too much of an emotional reaction to be able to think clearly. lol I'm just being facetious.

 

 

the title was not controversial, it was insulting. these are two different things.

 

i can think clearly just fine, even if i am disappointed by someone's closed-mindedness. however, reading the title and your actual post, i sense so much misogyny and so little understanding of the way the world actually works, that i do not feel it is worth trying to "state my case" and convince you to re-evaluate your so-called views.

 

my feeling is that you simply do not have enough life experience to see the obvious truth, and no amount of internet chatter will change that.

 

peace.

Edited December 6, 2009 by immortal_sister

[fiveelementtao]

Well said, there's hope for you... If you were my Tao student we caould have long talks about the interplay of yin and yang and how to make these these roadblocks you are feeling into ways to go beyond the battle of yin and yang. What you are percieiving as a battle for your independence, (you are afraid that the Tyranny of the feminine will consume and annihilate you right?) Meditate on it... If you can understand how to direct the dance of yin and yang... those hot babes that are seemingly demanding you to go out and become the next donald trump will come to you and beg you to give them your yang essence.

I guarantee you those hot babes are despreately seeking a strong man with powerful yang to satisfy them... I'm not talking sex and I'm not talking brute force. But, if women do not see true male power, they seek to satisfy their need with the only thing available... So, the women you see are just as frustrated as you...

If you learn the true essence of a man, you will NEVER need to chase women.

Case in point, My wife is the breadwinner (and very hot) and absolutely adores me because I know how to give her what she needs (and it ain't money and I'm not just talking sex).... But I practiced Tao for almost twenty years and was celibate for 6 years. I had alot of time to use my libido in my Tao practice to help me see under the surface of "the conspiracy".

So, my suggestion is to find a good Tao teacher and practice an energy exercise or an internal martial art. Otherwise, if you are like I was at 25, you will either become a doormat for every hot woman or you will resent the power you feel they have over you and seek to dominate them. Both are paths to great unhappiness. There is a middle path and it a great one for both sexes...

 

Yes you said it right five, I am sincere and do not mean disrespect I am just genuinely conveying my (perhaps offensive) perspectives in the hope that I can better understand what is what.

 

Obviously something doesn't sit right with me somewhere which is what impelled me to write the post in the first place and I am happy to rearrange my belief systems should better ones reveal themselves.

 

I also agree that it is the feminine that impels the creativity in men that doesn't mean it is in itself creative though, only indirectly so. If it wasn't for my 'gonads' I'd be a total nihilist.

 

I would go so far as to say dopamine is life itself. It drives everything in life. I am definitely a dopamine addict and I just equate more as better and the best dopamine high I get is from 'getting my rocks off'.

 

I'm also intrigued by the 'middle aged perspective' that you have, as I have often wondered how tinted my perspectives are by my age. I am indeed 25 years old and as I have been told this is the height of my libido. But to try and stifle my natural urges I feel would be an obscene butchering of my natural inclinations so what's a horny devil to do but fulfil those inclinations?

Edited December 6, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Enishi]

Edited December 6, 2009 by Enishi

[Non]

the fire, the spark, the light is yang. the water, the dark, the form is yin.

 

It is the feminine which guides. the yang is a spark, without the yin the spark has no definite course, and is scattered. There needs to be a carrier.

 

but really, sometimes it depends on how you look at it.

 

sometimes the internal is seen as yang, since the internal can be considered pure light, which came first, before the external.

 

yet sometimes it is also considered yin, since before light there was darkness, and it can be attributed with VOID, or nothingness which came before something.

 

But then again.. nothingness also came at the same time somethingness was created. without somethingness there is no 'nothingness'.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Non

[宁]

You aren't presenting an argument; you're vomiting a mass of delusion, misinformation, cultural and sexual biases all over the floor and expecting all of us to gather round and bare the burden of picking through the choicest morsels.

This is a regular occurance in this forum because the average age is very young and the educational level is modest. I don't wish to beat anyone up for being either young or uneducated. These are forgivable offenses!

 

Actually, Agape, your "argument" as you call it, is more of an emotional reaction that is robbing you of clear thinking, as you facetiously described Immortal Sister's "dilemma" (and I'm not being facetious).

 

Cheers.

 

Uhumm... I would add that it's very hard to change all those 'features' even if you really want to, let alone if you consider them as normal... it's close to impossible.

Agape,

I have a nose for lost cases... you'll wake up at 52, mmm... make that 62, if the environment doesn't change for the worse. If it does, well, amen with it...

But even the great Confucius said that if you hear truthful words in the morning, it's no loss to die in the evening.

[fiveelementtao]

the fire, the spark, the light is yang. the water, the dark, the form is yin.

 

It is the feminine which guides. the yang is a spark, without the yin the spark has no definite course, and is scattered. There needs to be a carrier.

 

I know what your problem with women is Non... Your yang is very weak. You are seeking to be guided by women.

 

You have the functions of yin and yang backwards. The Masculine leads, the feminine supports, surrounds and protects. The "spark" as you put it is masculine and points the way... The Feminine goes to manifest it. Without the guidance of the masculine, the power of the feminine is chaotic. Without the power of the feminine, the "spark" of the masculine is inneffective.

 

True POWER is feminine, True Strength is masculine. This is why Chinese internal martial arts are so powerful in comparison to other martial arts. Because taoist martial arts understand that POWER is feminine. Other arts only seek Strength. Strength without power is brittle. Power without strength destroys...

[Biff]

Don't get it twisted ya'll. Agape loves the cock.

[Agape]

Interesting enishi, I am what would be considered 'hardcore' on the pua front probs the reasons for my pessimistic views of women.

 

I am just starting to get good at it now and would disagree that it only works on 'fucked' women.

 

Most guys quit before they get good and write it off as useless just cos they didn't get it to work. Of course you gotta find what works for you. I think you have to go extreme with it to get good, gotta pay the cost and all that.

 

I agree it's fucking frustrating and makes me wanna kill myself alot; the learning curve is steeper than ANYTHING I've ever done in my life.

 

Contrary to it making me worse off I'd say the more sex I'm getting is the better it's making me internally as it;s making me less needy and also less resentful the better I get. The more experience I get is the more I see women's perspectives, why they act bitchy etc.

 

Although I may not agree like how they act I can relate to it more having had sex with needy girls and knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end.

 

I tried tai chi for a few months but found it so slow and irrelevant to my life. What I mean is the learning curve with that was too high for me to want to continue. I found it relevant long term like inner peace is a nice idea and all that but I didn't get a positive payoff soon enough that it would make me want to continue with it (note I'm not a typically impatient person not especially so anyway, on a global scale I guess I am somewhat having grown up in a western consumerist culture). It didn't move me like say art does. Something has to move me emotionally (either positively or negatively) to make me stick at it.

 

The trouble I have with most of these 'spiritual disciplines' is they are so outdated such that they don't evoke a strong response. What I mean is for instance tai chi is very much based on nature and now we live in cities then it is going to be alot harder to tap the surface of that and make the connections due to the disconnect in its presentation; not relevant to their epoch I think is the correct term. That is why I applaud contemporary art as it fulfills that spiritual side but is right up to the mark in terms of it's relevance to the individual's current identity; the trouble is again, in this consumerist society how often do you find GOOD as opposed to vapid lecherous advertisements appealing to the baser inclinations of the human organism. So in terms of spiritual I haven't found a system which gels with me and am not really motivated to seek one out atm.

 

I think when I'm about 50 or so and I come out of the testosterone haze that is when I'll devote the remainder of my life to the spiritual. Go live in the country and come to terms with my inevitable demise and all that. It will have more urgency once I get closer to expiration.

[Non]

I know what your problem with women is Non... Your yang is very weak. You are seeking to be guided by women.

 

You have the functions of yin and yang backwards. The Masculine leads, the feminine supports, surrounds and protects. The "spark" as you put it is masculine and points the way... The Feminine goes to manifest it. Without the guidance of the masculine, the power of the feminine is chaotic. Without the power of the feminine, the "spark" of the masculine is inneffective.

 

True POWER is feminine, True Strength is masculine. This is why Chinese internal martial arts are so powerful in comparison to other martial arts. Becuase taoist martial arts understand that POWER is feminine. Other arts only seek Strength. Strength without power is brittle. Power without strength destroys...

 

 

i do not think yin and yang should be synonymous with male and female, feminine or mascule.. for sex and gender is a product of the human condition or individual species which have genders, and it's not so universal. there are species which exist that are asexual, that have the so called 'normal' male/female roles as humans do, backwards. Ie some females are actually more aggressive and stronger than males.

 

some species are monogamous, some are not. etc. we have a choice.

 

if you read about extraterrestrials, a lot of them are asexual. They would also believe that sexuality can cause problems and divisions within societies because it is too pleasure seeking selfishness and all about lust and desire and not about community, to the point where it limits them if they dont have sex.

 

To me, sexuality is ok if it can be handled correctly, if not then it's a powerful force which can kill.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Non

[RiverSnake]

Well said, there's hope for you... If you were my Tao student we caould have long talks about the interplay of yin and yang and how to make these these roadblocks you are feeling into ways to go beyond the battle of yin and yang. What you are percieiving as a battle for your independence, (you are afraid that the Tyranny of the feminine will consume and annihilate you right?) Meditate on it... If you can understand how to direct the dance of yin and yang... those hot babes that are seemingly demanding you to go out and become the next donald trump will come to you and beg you to give them your yang essence.

I guarantee you those hot babes are despreately seeking a strong man with powerful yang to satisfy them... I'm not talking sex and I'm not talking brute force. But, if women do not see true male power, they seek to satisfy their need with the only thing available... So, the women you see are just as frustrated as you...

If you learn the true essence of a man, you will NEVER need to chase women.

Case in point, My wife is the breadwinner (and very hot) and absolutely adores me because I know how to give her what she needs (and it ain't money and I'm not just talking sex).... But I practiced Tao for almost twenty years and was celibate for 6 years. I had alot of time to use my libido in my Tao practice to help me see under the surface of "the conspiracy".

So, my suggestion is to find a good Tao teacher and practice an energy exercise or an internal martial art. Otherwise, if you are like I was at 25, you will either become a doormat for every hot woman or you will resent the power you feel they have over you and seek to dominate them. Both are paths to great unhappiness. There is a middle path and it a great one for both sexes...

 

You seem to have a great deal of insight on this topic. However, my gripe with this issue is that as a young man i look around and feel that men are slowly being yininized (that's a made up word) or becoming more and more feminine...with no real masculine role models and this literally breeds a bad situation for both men and women. Like you said...there is frustration on both sides.

[Enishi]

I hear ya Agape, the learning curve with PUA is VERY steep.

 

If there's a nice balance, building up better 'game' and masculine energy without having to deal with the constant tension and frustration of spending many hours a week approaching women and pissing away tons of dollars driving to clubs while wondering if it's all for naught I very much want to know about it.

 

Admittingly, I have been told by those who have traveled to other countries that the whole "women prefer assholes" phenomena is more of a distinctly American neurosis. Travel to Latin America, Europe or Asia and its not so pronounced. Of course, moving to another country isn't currently within my means, sigh.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Enishi

[Non]

Good post. Speaking of which (I suppose this ties in with the attractiveness thread) the mention you made of cultivation and not having to chase women interests me.

 

Case in point, over the past 2 years I spent quite a bit of time reading PUA material and 'chasing' women. Altough I did get laid here and there, and had a girlfriend for a month until we we decided the connection just wasn't strong enough, I can't shake of the feeling that the payoff in terms of sex was largely a waste of time (especially considering all the gas money and other expenses incured in driving to the club).

 

Some of the PUA stuff does have some useful points therein, but it seems to me like it generally works best on women who are already fucked in the head enough to think 'assholes' are attractive, and I don't want someone like that.

 

The mental effects it can have on a man who uses it over a long period of time don't look very appealing to me either, based on this blog post here by RooshV.

 

RooshV: The Dark Side of Game

So yep, I'm more more interested in 'finding without seeking' avenue now, lol.

 

I agree with you Enishi.

 

I tried it once, and ignorant women fell for my cocky aggressive attitude with them and saw it as "manliness".

 

The problem with society is that they class masculinity and feminity with certain characteristics. For instance males are aggressive, violent, strong, logical. Women are pacifist, unviolent, weak, and emotional and illogical.

 

And then they say "it's nature, it's darwinistic, etc." Most of humanity don't even know our true history. We didn't evolve by ourselves. True macro evolution would've taken us a lot longer than what our textbooks tell us if we evolved from ape to human naturally by ourselves. we also see with our limited perception of the senses we have. we see on earth animals killing each other.. to "survive". What if on a different plane or dimension of seeing we aren't even "killing" each other? What if this is all an illusion. We can't be "stuck" in a violent universe.

 

This is the problem with duality. People become dual minded. Taoist and the yin and yang theory: doesn't that support duality? Then it mixes and theorizes with the folk philosophies and categorizes things.

 

It might help to just view it objectively and not as factual. it works more as a system of belief, it's a system of categorization, that one uses for personal gain, but it's not factual. It's conceptual.

 

I know what your problem with women is Non... Your yang is very weak. You are seeking to be guided by women.

 

You have the functions of yin and yang backwards. The Masculine leads, the feminine supports, surrounds and protects. The "spark" as you put it is masculine and points the way... The Feminine goes to manifest it. Without the guidance of the masculine, the power of the feminine is chaotic. Without the power of the feminine, the "spark" of the masculine is inneffective.

 

True POWER is feminine, True Strength is masculine. This is why Chinese internal martial arts are so powerful in comparison to other martial arts. Becuase taoist martial arts understand that POWER is feminine. Other arts only seek Strength. Strength without power is brittle. Power without strength destroys...

 

I dont mean "guide" as in "seeing a figure guiding another by the hand". obviously you're going to think of a male guiding the weaker ignorant female who doesn't know anything that needs to be guided because she can't think for herself. (lol).

 

I mean sorta like.. yin is the boundary and yang is the path.

 

Isn't yin that which gives form? Without the dark, light could not exist.

 

"Emptiness is form. Form is emptiness" kinda thingy.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Non

[Pero]

This seems like the first sensible answer enishi, that makes sense.

 

Others seem to have recoiled at my controversial topic title such that they didn't offer reasonable counters to my argument.

 

I don't know if you are including me, but in any case I did not "recoil"...

I just don't see how hotness equates with feminine. I remember some women who were hot but weren't much feminine, and some who weren't as hot but were very feminine. I also felt more attracted to the latter.