Why is creativity considered a feminine trait when women don't create anything except babies?

[Non]

I don't know if you are including me, but in any case I did not "recoil"...

I just don't see how hotness equates with feminine. I remember some women who were hot but weren't much feminine, and some who weren't as hot but were very feminine. I also felt more attracted to the latter.

 

 

Depends on what you view as hot. Sex is sex, hot is hot. Scientists have agreed it's testosterone that makes people want to have sex and aggressive (but moreso its aggression about sex).

 

This is why I don't really like the whole categorizations some taoists belive in because it just further supports duality and confusion.. attributing concepts to each other and creating linkages with this and that. It's just a mind made system, for the individuals mind and 'energies'.

 

what if it really isn't just about yin and yang.

 

what if it's more about a trinity not just a unity? what if it's not about any of those two? What if the trinity is just yin, yang, and then the yin/yang together?

Edited December 6, 2009 by Non

[Pero]

Depends on what you view as hot.

 

That's true, I guess for me meaning of hot in any way I can imagine just doesn't equate feminine. It's just different. Maybe with other people it's not like that.

[Apech]

Interesting enishi, I am what would be considered 'hardcore' on the pua front probs the reasons for my pessimistic views of women.

 

 

 

What exactly does this mean? I am lost.

[Non]

You seem to have a great deal of insight on this topic. However, my gripe with this issue is that as a young man i look around and feel that men are slowly being yininized (that's a made up word) or becoming more and more feminine...with no real masculine role models and this literally breeds a bad situation for both men and women. Like you said...there is frustration on both sides.

 

 

Yea that might be true. But there's also something deeper going on than just "men are becoming effeminate".

 

There's a documentary called the dissappearing male as being a result of environmental conditions, pollutions etc.

 

There's also a corruption in this world... The Powers That Be which exist actually have been steering the world and humanity for their own purposes and destroying us. Powers that are BEYOND any sort of human male stregnth. So yea from a perspective it looks like they TAKE IT UP THE ARSE, but really they have no real power over something such as technologies which go beyond their own technology. And any sort of imbalance can be considered a disharmony and lack of integration of the yin and yang and any of the elements. Any problem can be considered a sexual disharmony. Any sexual disharmony can be considered a problem beyond simple sexuality because humanity is sexual.

 

I always thought.. promiscuous men and women were kind of homo. Why would a guy want a girl who's been around the whole block, with other mens detritus in her, and a fascination with 'extreme hardcore' masculinity to a point it seems pretty gay. And same with a girl.

 

Besides I don't even think it's all too natural... if nobody was monogamous we would have a lot of babies not being taken care of and no familial structure. Promiscuity would probably only work in non pair bonding species. Ie those that don't depend on pair bonds to raise their offspring or whatever else they need pair bonds for.

 

What exactly does this mean? I am lost.

 

 

PUA means "pick-up artist"

Edited December 6, 2009 by Non

[fiveelementtao]

You seem to have a great deal of insight on this topic. However, my gripe with this issue is that as a young man i look around and feel that men are slowly being yininized (that's a made up word) or becoming more and more feminine...with no real masculine role models and this literally breeds a bad situation for both men and women. Like you said...there is frustration on both sides.

 

I completely agree

 

 

Non... You are overthinking it and hiding behind intellectual rationales. Work through your feelings and stop muddying the waters with too much thinking to escape the feelings. Minimizing this issue to just sex and gender roles is missing the point... Yin and yang are absolutes that are balanced and flow with each other. Humans have both yin and yang in them regardless of sex. But the majority of humans are heterosexual and generally follow their yin yang counterparts. You were the guy complaining that no woman would ever want you right? Was that you?... If it is, I just now saw that it is because your yang is weak. You need to do something to build it up. Martial arts is excellent way. Now, if you're not that guy, I apologize.... I mistook you for someone else that's complaining about not ever being able to get a girl....

[Stigweard]

Creativity is neither Yin or Yang but is the phenomena that manifests from the union of Yin and Yang. In this intercourse Yang is the initiating energy and Yin is the receiving energy. Remove either Yin or Yang from the equation and you have no creation.

 

Hence both male and female are creative but they will express that creativity according to their own predominant nature. In natural accordance (and this is generally speaking), men will be creative in the world outside the home whilst women will be creative inside the home.

 

An "ideal society" based on natural principles recognizes family life as the foundation of a functional community. Thus the feminine creativity within the home is honored and valued at least equally (and sometimes prominently) to the value placed on the masculine creativity outside the home.

 

The reason why misconceptions of male preeminence take place, like that of Agapes', is because we are still struggling to shed the brittle yoke of 3000 years of patriarchal culture that values the male creativity as supreme whilst denigrating the female creativity. The title of this thread ("women don't create anything except babies") and comments like, "Everything you see in sight was created by men, not women," are perfect examples of this patriarchal delusion and denigration of feminine creativity.

 

The world is currently suffering, socially, economically, and environmentally, from the bull rush of masculine over-exertion. Women fought for and won their equal rights but unfortunately all they really won is their right to be more masculine rather than true femininity and female creativity being lifted up and honored as equal.

 

The result is that, with both partners now out of the home competing in the masculine world, the feminine function of nurturing our children to become healthy citizens is being usurped by day-care-centers, government education, popular media and now the internet. No longer are parents the main role-models and educators of our children and our society is worse off for it.

 

The challenge is of course that the culture of female creativity has a long history of being suppressed, denigrated and literally being burned at the stake. I applaud those women's groups who are actively exploring and re-empowering feminine creativity in the world and I challenge chaps like you Agape to truly open your heart and your mind to the world, and learn to honor "The Mother" present in every infinite aspect of your life.

[Non]

I completely agree

Non... You are overthinking it and hiding behind intellectual rationales. Work through your feelings and stop muddying the waters with too much thinking to escape the feelings. Minimizing this issue to just sex and gender roles is missing the point... Yin and yang are absolutes that are balanced and flow with each other. Humans have both yin and yang in them regardless of sex. But the majority of humans are heterosexual and generally follow their yin yang counterparts. You were the guy complaining that no woman would ever want you right? Was that you?... If it is, I just now saw that it is because your yang is weak. You need to do something to build it up. Martial arts is excellent way. Now, if you're not that guy, I apologize.... I mistook you for someone else that's complaining about not ever being able to get a girl....

 

 

I am that guy. But are you saying I'm weak in my yang simply because I can't get women, which is something to do with sex? It can be just the same if one was weak in the yin, ie being a guy weak in the yin aspects of himself, unable to get a female for sexual/romantic/"creative" purposes.

 

And it may have more to do with yin and yang being in balance. They all need their due stregnth and harmony to work in perfect balance.

Edited December 6, 2009 by Non

[fiveelementtao]

I will also say that I agree with alot of what is being said about the dissapearance of the male. I partly agree, but I also think that the Male has been greatly misunderstood throughout history. One reason why the world has been so patriarchal is because the Male (yang) has been weak and in order to compensate, men became tyrants. That does not mean that feminine is superior, in asian cultures the villain is always a female witch to symbolize the destruction the power of the unbalanced feminine can do. Most cultures became male dominant because of fear of the sheer power of the feminine.

 

But most men, do not understand what a truly powerful man is. Most women intuit their power but don't understand it.

 

This is the real gift of Tao practice. This is the true gift of taoist internal martial arts. In order to be a truly effective internal martial artist, one needs to understand the interplay of yin and yang and Chi. There is no room for intellectualization...

[Agape]

Now we are getting deep into things I'd say most of the 'problem' is to do with overpopulation and the fact there can only be one (or a few in their relative territories) alpha male/s.

 

Back in the day it wouldn't have mattered so much that the alpha hoards stock as this was relevant to the hunter gatherer epoch back then and was necessary for survival but now there are so many ppl around it is detrimental.

 

So currently we have those greedy elites who run the world and are hoarding the resources and destroying the world to boot. The rest of the 'common' men lay somewhere in between on the totem pole but most lay at the lower end as they do not dominate the environment. It's like the wolf packs where the alpha males gets to mat with all of the females in the pack but the betas aren't allowed to mate with any. As such the betas are not gonna be alpha and not gonna be attractive to women and thus there is a cycle of frustration between the sexes. The beta males want the hotties but the hotties want the alphas and there are precious few around.

 

I'm not saying this is the ideal archetype of the alpha male but rather it's an old one which is outdated still be used today- hoarding of resources being a relic of our hunter gatherer days which is also causing us to b destroying the planet.

 

So what we need is a new concept of the alpha to run the show a more egalitarian alpha who will reform this corrupt and polluted society; but, alas this is just a dream.

[Non]

I will also say that I agree with alot of what is being said about the dissapearance of the male. I partly agree, but I also think that the Male has been greatly misunderstood throughout history. One reason why the world has been so patriarchal is because the Male (yang) has been weak and in order to compensate, men became tyrants. That does not mean that feminine is superior, in asian cultures the villain is always a female witch to symbolize the destruction the power of the unbalanced feminine can do. Most cultures became male dominant because of fear of the sheer power of the feminine.

 

But most men, do not understand what a truly powerful man is. Most women intuit their power but don't understand it.

 

This is the real gift of Tao practice. This is the true gift of taoist internal martial arts. In order to be a truly effective internal martial artist, one needs to understand the interplay of yin and yang and Chi. There is no room for intellectualization...

 

 

THIS I AGREE WITH.

[fiveelementtao]

I am that guy. But are you saying I'm weak in my yang simply because I can't get women, which is something to do with sex? It can be just the same if one was weak in the yin, ie being a guy weak in the yin aspects of himself, unable to get a female for sexual/romantic/"creative" purposes.

 

And it may have more to do with yin and yang being in balance. They all need their due stregnth and harmony to work in perfect balance.

 

Dude, stop mindf***ing yourself. It may be this.. it may be that... Take my advice or not... I'm telling you, your yang is weak and that is why women are not attracted to you. You can fix it. But you will have to face the problem within yourself. FInd a good Tao teacher and he/she can help you fix it. Taoist martial arts are the best way I know how to develop a strong balanced yang and to understand the yin. You do not understand the yin and your yang is weak.

 

That's my advice... accept it or not, believe it or not. IMO the only answer for lies in taking direct action to fix the problem within yourself. All the talk and thinking in the world will be pointless... Time to take action...

[Apech]

 

I always thought.. promiscuous men and women were kind of homo. Why would a guy want a girl who's been around the whole block, with other mens detritus in her, and a fascination with 'extreme hardcore' masculinity to a point it seems pretty gay. And same with a girl.

 

 

Besides I don't even think it's all too natural... if nobody was monogamous we would have a lot of babies not being taken care of and no familial structure. Promiscuity would probably only work in non pair bonding species. Ie those that don't depend on pair bonds to raise their offspring or whatever else they need pair bonds for.

PUA means "pick-up artist"

 

 

Thanks for that last bit of clarification anyway.

 

So are we all for the nuclear family and gay bashing now? Where did the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s go ...was I dreaming?

[Non]

Now we are getting deep into things I'd say most of the 'problem' is to do with overpopulation and the fact there can only be one (or a few in their relative territories) alpha male/s.

 

Back in the day it wouldn't have mattered so much that the alpha hoards stock as this was relevant to the hunter gatherer epoch back then and was necessary for survival but now there are so many ppl around it is detrimental.

 

So currently we have those greedy elites who run the world and are hoarding the resources and destroying the world to boot. The rest of the 'common' men lay somewhere in between on the totem pole but most lay at the lower end as they do not dominate the environment. It's like the wolf packs where the alpha males gets to mat with all of the females in the pack but the betas aren't allowed to mate with any. As such the betas are not gonna be alpha and not gonna be attractive to women and thus there is a cycle of frustration between the sexes. The beta males want the hotties but the hotties want the alphas and there are precious few around.

 

I'm not saying this is the ideal archetype of the alpha male but rather it's an old one which is outdated still be used today- hoarding of resources being a relic of our hunter gatherer days which is also causing us to b destroying the planet.

 

So what we need is a new concept of the alpha to run the show a more egalitarian alpha who will reform this corrupt and polluted society; but, alas this is just a dream.

 

What about the theta males

 

 

Thanks for that last bit of clarification anyway.

 

So are we all for the nuclear family and gay bashing now? Where did the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s go ...was I dreaming?

 

 

Actually.. it just depends on the individual, and their species also. That's why some species are monogamous, and some are not. Some also have a choice. But there is no "one is bad, the other is good". That's an opinion, and depends on your purpose.

 

but there are just those people who would say it's unnatural to be monogamous, and it's nature to be violent, and anti-social, and uncaring, loveless, promiscuous. That we dont have the capacity to be monogamous and faithful. Maybe it was primitive, but we can also change and evolve. We dont have to be stuck with useless patterns. I'm not saying that non monogamy is useless. But if we humans had supposedly evolved like Darwin said, or how scientists would interpret "darwin theory", do you think humans could survive and take care of their offspring without the use of tools and intelligence against a sabertooth tiger? No so we came together, made communities, tools, became intelligent. We don't have thick skin like the gorillas do. Why aren't there as many numbers of different kinds of humans as there are apes and monkeys if we all evolved by ourselves? What made our isolated species alone evolve so rapidly? There's a missing link that our schools haven't taught and perhaps "the powers that be" know. What if we were genetically engineered a long time ago?

 

We as humans have the capacity to produce both oxytocin and vasopressin chemicals which are responsible for pair bonding.

 

Then again, a lot of humans don't even know the true nature of sexuality, and settle for low end sexual experience which may cause partners to become seperate as time goes on and let loveless division become prominent in their relationships.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Non

[fiveelementtao]

 

So what we need is a new concept of the alpha to run the show a more egalitarian alpha who will reform this corrupt and polluted society; but, alas this is just a dream.

 

I agree and I would add that it is time to allow the power and creativity of the feminine. this combined with your staement iswhat I think the "aquarian shift" or whatever energetic evolution that is occurring is all about...

[Apech]

I agree and I would add that it is time to allow the power and creativity of the feminine. this combined with your staement iswhat I think the "aquarian shift" or whatever energetic evolution that is occurring is all about...

 

How about believing in individuals? (regardless of whether they are men or women)???

 

Difficult for anyone who practices PUA I think

Edited December 6, 2009 by apepch7

[Pero]

Dude, stop mindf***ing yourself. It may be this.. it may be that... Take my advice or not... I'm telling you, your yang is weak and that is why women are not attracted to you. You can fix it. But you will have to face the problem within yourself. FInd a good Tao teacher and he/she can help you fix it. Taoist martial arts are the best way I know how to develop a strong balanced yang and to understand the yin. You do not understand the yin and your yang is weak.

 

That's my advice... accept it or not, believe it or not. IMO the only answer for lies in taking direct action to fix the problem within yourself. All the talk and thinking in the world will be pointless... Time to take action...

 

I was too yin too, then I got into basketball and martial arts and was ok, now I'm out of both more or less and I think I'm too yin again. So what else can strengthen yang since I'm not interested in MA much anymore?

[Taomeow]

I'm turning weird, verily. I skimmed through Agape's post and of all reactions I could possibly have, I suddenly saw what ayahuasca would do to him. What She, cara madre mia, would do to one of Her wayward sons if She cared to redeem him.

 

I'm still ROFL but my hair stands on end!

[Stigweard]

I'm turning weird, verily. I skimmed through Agape's post and of all reactions I could possibly have, I suddenly saw what ayahuasca would do to him. What She, cara madre mia, would do to one of Her wayward sons if She cared to redeem him.

 

I'm still ROFL but my hair stands on end!

[Non]

I was too yin too, then I got into basketball and martial arts and was ok, now I'm out of both more or less and I think I'm too yin again. So what else can strengthen yang since I'm not interested in MA much anymore?

 

Yea I want to take martial arts. But I started with internal martial arts (tai chi for now, before I can move on to the more advanced) and I will surely move up to the external martial arts. I just wanted to focus on tai chi first. I do go to the gym though and I run like 3-5 times a week so...

 

I kinda think external martial arts is like a last resort kind of thing. If the internal don't work, the external will and finish it off.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Non

[NeiChuan]

Manly? Feminine? Both stupid rights of passage - for even more stupid people.

[fiveelementtao]

Yea I want to take martial arts. But I started with internal martial arts (tai chi for now, before I can move on to the more advanced) and I will surely move up to the external martial arts. I just wanted to focus on tai chi first. I do go to the gym though and I run like 3-5 times a week so...

 

I kinda think external martial arts is like a last resort kind of thing. If the internal don't work, the external will and finish it off.

Well Non, I think any physical activity will help. If you are studying Tai Chi I reccomend you find someone who teache it as a martial art. A true Tai Chi martial artist teacher will show you the external side of Tai chi also. But in your case any physical activity will help.

But, aside from that, I believe you need some counseling. I do not believe you will be able to work through your women issues without some counseling. This forum won't help.

[RiverSnake]

Yea I want to take martial arts. But I started with internal martial arts (tai chi for now, before I can move on to the more advanced) and I will surely move up to the external martial arts. I just wanted to focus on tai chi first. I do go to the gym though and I run like 3-5 times a week so...

 

I kinda think external martial arts is like a last resort kind of thing. If the internal don't work, the external will and finish it off.

 

Non...you need to "empty your cup"...reevaluate what you know and don't know (that's one good thing western philosophy is good for, take a PHI 1 class) "The more you learn, the less you know" anyone with experience will tell you this is true. Also, stop jacking off, this will increase your yang energy. Do some push ups every morning...and take your time, focus on the present and don't be trying to always get somewhere or you will miss out on the present, the more you focus in on the moment the wiser you will become, also listen to an "older cat" who's trying to spit some wisdom your way, "fiveelementtao" has already been around the block a couple of times. Not trying to knock you down, congrats on being willing to put in the effort for balancing out yourself, not many people want to even look for the light at the end of the tunnel

Edited December 7, 2009 by Tao Apprentice

[Aetherous]

We are lucky to have the few women that we do on this forum.

[markern]

Good post. Speaking of which (I suppose this ties in with the attractiveness thread) the mention you made of cultivation and not having to chase women interests me.

 

Case in point, over the past 2 years I spent quite a bit of time reading PUA material and 'chasing' women. Altough I did get laid here and there, and had a girlfriend for a month until we we decided the connection just wasn't strong enough, I can't shake of the feeling that the payoff in terms of sex was largely a waste of time (especially considering all the gas money and other expenses incured in driving to the club).

 

Some of the PUA stuff does have some useful points therein, but it seems to me like it generally works best on women who are already fucked in the head enough to think 'assholes' are attractive, and I don't want someone like that.

 

The mental effects it can have on a man who uses it over a long period of time don't look very appealing to me either, based on this blog post here by RooshV.

 

RooshV: The Dark Side of Game

So yep, I'm more more interested in 'finding without seeking' avenue now, lol.

 

I think Juggler method is better than for example cocky funny stuff at attracting balanced and helathywomen. If you want a quicker learning curve Troy of Troy Dizzon dating has an outstanding reputation of bringing peoplevery quick reslts. Timmy D from Juggler method aslo get very, very quick results with people.

 

I know what your problem with women is Non... Your yang is very weak. You are seeking to be guided by women.

 

You have the functions of yin and yang backwards. The Masculine leads, the feminine supports, surrounds and protects. The "spark" as you put it is masculine and points the way... The Feminine goes to manifest it. Without the guidance of the masculine, the power of the feminine is chaotic. Without the power of the feminine, the "spark" of the masculine is inneffective.

 

True POWER is feminine, True Strength is masculine. This is why Chinese internal martial arts are so powerful in comparison to other martial arts. Becuase taoist martial arts understand that POWER is feminine. Other arts only seek Strength. Strength without power is brittle. Power without strength destroys...

 

Can you elaborate on the power strenght thing. I just don't get it but find it interesting.

 

Interesting enishi, I am what would be considered 'hardcore' on the pua front probs the reasons for my pessimistic views of women.

 

I am just starting to get good at it now and would disagree that it only works on 'fucked' women.

 

Most guys quit before they get good and write it off as useless just cos they didn't get it to work. Of course you gotta find what works for you. I think you have to go extreme with it to get good, gotta pay the cost and all that.

 

I agree it's fucking frustrating and makes me wanna kill myself alot; the learning curve is steeper than ANYTHING I've ever done in my life.

 

Contrary to it making me worse off I'd say the more sex I'm getting is the better it's making me internally as it;s making me less needy and also less resentful the better I get. The more experience I get is the more I see women's perspectives, why they act bitchy etc.

 

Although I may not agree like how they act I can relate to it more having had sex with needy girls and knowing what it's like to be on the receiving end.

 

I tried tai chi for a few months but found it so slow and irrelevant to my life. What I mean is the learning curve with that was too high for me to want to continue. I found it relevant long term like inner peace is a nice idea and all that but I didn't get a positive payoff soon enough that it would make me want to continue with it (note I'm not a typically impatient person not especially so anyway, on a global scale I guess I am somewhat having grown up in a western consumerist culture). It didn't move me like say art does. Something has to move me emotionally (either positively or negatively) to make me stick at it.

 

The trouble I have with most of these 'spiritual disciplines' is they are so outdated such that they don't evoke a strong response. What I mean is for instance tai chi is very much based on nature and now we live in cities then it is going to be alot harder to tap the surface of that and make the connections due to the disconnect in its presentation; not relevant to their epoch I think is the correct term. That is why I applaud contemporary art as it fulfills that spiritual side but is right up to the mark in terms of it's relevance to the individual's current identity; the trouble is again, in this consumerist society how often do you find GOOD as opposed to vapid lecherous advertisements appealing to the baser inclinations of the human organism. So in terms of spiritual I haven't found a system which gels with me and am not really motivated to seek one out atm.

 

I think when I'm about 50 or so and I come out of the testosterone haze that is when I'll devote the remainder of my life to the spiritual. Go live in the country and come to terms with my inevitable demise and all that. It will have more urgency once I get closer to expiration.

 

Tai chi is great, I am learning myself now, but it takes a lot of time to learn. What you could do each morning is the five tibetans for 15 minutes. Meditate on the breath or with a mantra or do longevity breathing for 15-20 minutes and then do the secret smile for about 10. The tibetans work absolute wonders for me in terms of emotional and energetic balance and do the same for a lot of people whereas it just does not click with others. It is well worth checking out if it works for you and you don't need much time with it. It also gives you very good physcial exercise. The meditation or breath work will provide deep relaxation, concentration, and lots of pleasureable feelings. The secret smile will make you relaxed, confident, happy, loving, and blissfull and cleanse out your channels. A bunch of people here practice it and you can find instructions in an old thread if you put secret smile in the search function. That is solid routine that will should resutls on a bunch of levels. How about yoga class?

[Non]

I think, and I believe that until the 'great shift' of this age occurs, we can't really see a balancing out of yin and yang in humans, simply because the influence the "powers that be" have over us is too great. We must build up our power to fight it. One of the great plans was to create a conflict between the males and the females, because they know that if they could control sexuality and make it taboo, you are taking their essences and controlling them.

 

So I think it's more than simply balancing your own yin and yang, but also, destroying that which limits our own balancing of our yin and yang energies. Cause we could spend all our lives trying to balance our yin and yang energies when it keeps being taken out of balance by some other foreign powers we don't even know is affecting us, and therefore can't even really do anything meaningful about it.

 

And 99.9 percent of the world doesn't really know what's going on. I can spend all day trying to fix my problem but I need to go to the source... a psychologist is not really going to know a damn thing about going to the source of the problem. They don't even know where it lies at.

Edited December 7, 2009 by Non