Why is creativity considered a feminine trait when women don't create anything except babies?

[Apech]

Dear all (and Taomeow and Immortal Sis. particularly),

 

I've read as much of this thread as I can but sorry if I've missed some points. I'm a bit perplexed by the focus on child bearing and women's obvious superiority at this. The OP said 'women don't create anything except babies' and I don't want to encourage this kind of idea. However I would dispute that having babies is evidence of creativity because its just a biological fact and happens without any conscious intervention from the mother (I mean in terms of the growth of the foetus) - although caring for children is undoubtedly a significant and difficult skill - but the fact that you can have babies is not evidence of creativity (surely?) So haven't you just fallen into the trap of the OP by suggesting that this is so significant.

 

I know that there are different definitions of creativity but it seems to me that in the arts, sciences and business creativity involves something which is very particular and individual. I think that those people that we count as really creative produce something (a picture, music, whatever) from deep inner intuition, intellectual examination and willed exploration of their experience of themselves and the world. The hallmark of this is that what is produced is new in some sense. New because it is a new expression - even if it is couched within a traditional skill like calligraphy for instance. The question is this, is there anything specifically male or female about this process?

 

If we are Taoist (or accept some other mystical system) then we surely understand that life, our life, our beings are at a deep level the product of the interaction of energies and that the most fundamental of these is the interaction of yin and yang. Our creativity comes fundamentally from the interaction and tension between yin and yang essential male and female energies. Whether we are men or women is irrelevant to the source of our potential creativity, although it will surely influence how it is expressed. It is logical from this point of view to think that men and women both have equal potential to be creative. The fact that in recent history more men are recorded as having demonstrated this ability means very little because we know that for many generations there have been false obstacles placed in the way of women expressing themselves. The reasons for this are complicated and I don't buy into the usual tired arguments around male behaviour. I think that one factor is about human survival and that there was some advantage to homo sapiens to have patriarchal social structures ... but as is so often the case the structures long outlived their usefulness.

 

I have given some thought to the PUA thing as well and I think it is very interesting why such an idea should exist. I also think that ideas like this have some superficial similarities to mysticism - but that the motivation is quite different. What I would suggest to those who are practitioners is that you are being allowed to be successful and not for the reasons that you think. I will leave it there for now.

 

A.

[ralis]

Why do rock musicians wear more feminine looking clothing? Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Mick Jager, Steven Tyler et al ?

 

ralis

[Birch]

Hey Ralis,

 

Check out the video I just posted in my forum. It even has some weird stuff going on at the end. Yin and Yang still;-)

[Creation]

So how would you suggest a guy like me, who is all expansive and has a great deal of trouble actually giving form to his ideas, go about actually creating?

Bump for Creation's question about creation.

[Taomeow]

 

QUOTE(Creation @ Dec 8 2009, 03:46 PM) *

So how would you suggest a guy like me, who is all expansive and has a great deal of trouble actually giving form to his ideas, go about actually creating?

 

Bump for Creation's question about creation.

 

Well... creation is a complicated matter for the likes of us (yes, this can happen to women too ) but you already know it. What is it you want to create? for some of the arts I might have a practical method in mind, for others, some generic guidelines (e.g., don't create what depletes your main wuxing phase... I'd offer a 4P reading to specify but I already promised someone and keep delaying, made myself busy getting into too many threads here -- see how we do this to ourselves? -- but a bit later, I might re-offer it.)

[Creation]

What is it you want to create? for some of the arts I might have a practical method in mind, for others, some generic guidelines (e.g., don't create what depletes your main wuxing phase... I'd offer a 4P reading to specify but I already promised someone and keep delaying, made myself busy getting into too many threads here -- see how we do this to ourselves? -- but a bit later, I might re-offer it.)

My main attempts at creative expression have been through theoretical mathematics and music (mostly performance: self-taught in guitar, piano, dance and voice, but I aspire to composition). Writing, mostly expository, is a side interest.

 

I alwasy run into the same feeling of what's "out there, in here" not being able to come together and manifest, like we discussed. MADDENING.

 

I'm sure a personal reading would be best, but according to my free astrology reading from Chia's site, it showed earth as large, fire as medium, and the rest as small. Overactive spleen fits my personality well, don't know about the rest. Is that what you meant by main phase?

[Taomeow]

My main attempts at creative expression have been through theoretical mathematics and music (mostly performance: self-taught in guitar, piano, dance and voice, but I aspire to composition). Writing, mostly expository, is a side interest.

 

I alwasy run into the same feeling of what's "out there, in here" not being able to come together and manifest, like we discussed. MADDENING.

 

I'm sure a personal reading would be best, but according to my free astrology reading from Chia's site, it showed earth as large, fire as medium, and the rest as small. Overactive spleen fits my personality well, don't know about the rest. Is that what you meant by main phase?

No, that's not what I mean, I don't know what system Chia uses. I use Four Pillars, and you can find 4P sites online but don't do it this way, it will mostly be BS. Just let's put it off for a bit.

 

Theoretical math, cool -- maybe we could collaborate someday on something I have discovered in meditation (I used to get maddeningly complex mathematical visions in meditation, and I don't have any math training to speak of! I once described one of those to someone who is a math genius and he said that it is a vision of Minkovsky space of events in 4D... which didn't help much!) -- as I was saying, discovered something that looks like an irrefutable refutation of a cornerstone axiom, with dire consequences to science-as-we-know-it ... but I don't have enough math to express it. This, also for later, the I Ching told me not to touch it for the time being (the last time I did, the world did change... the last time was on 9/10/01).

 

Which of your creative pursuits feels like destiny to you?

[Creation]

Math and writing seem like destiny to me. Perhaps or perhaps not for music, but I would say I love it the most of the three.

 

[EDIT: It is difficult me to separate perceptions of destiny with fancy, potential ability, and love of the thing. These are related, I guess. Just to be sure, what did you mean by destiny?]

 

I had to put the breaks on the my obsessive pursuit of mathematics because I was getting completely stuck in my head and divorced from reality, and because of my inability to give form to my ideas. I am not sure when I will pick it up again in earnest. But it will definitely require the aforementioned obstacles be removed.

 

A vision of 4D Minkowski space? Einstein would be jealous! The difficulty of really wrapping one's mind around the picture of spacetime that Poincare, Einstein, and Minkowki bequeathed has been an obstacle for physicists since the start. Case in point, Thomas precession. People were still thinking of particles like electrons in terms of Newton's picture of space and time, and could not figure out why something related to the electron's spin was different by exactly a factor of 2 from what they thought it would be. Then Thomas came along and said, well if you really think in terms of the kinematics of Minkowski spacetime the factor of 2 comes out automatically. Even Einstein had missed this!

 

About science in general: Doing science depends on the one's ability to separate the world into distinct parts. From the viewpoint of spirituality this is fundamentally an illusory idea, making science, in an ultimate sense, an illusion as well, albeit a useful one. I didn't need any math to say that, so I'm wondering what your insight was.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Creation

[Non]

Creativity is NOT feminine, it is WHAT IT IS. Geez.

 

Gender roles are not universal!

 

Want to be Taoist? Look at nature and see how what could be considered human gender roles are often times reversed in other animal species. Look at the asexual beings.

 

Furthermore.. not everything falls into the exact definition of 'yin' and 'yang'. Things are just complementary to each other. Light and dark. But one is not considered feminine while another masculine. And light and dark have its own characteristics not necessarily "yin" and "yang."

Edited December 11, 2009 by Non

[Aetherous]

Really great post, Non!

[effilang]

edit

 

Some of your posts i agree with, that one on the other hand i totally don't.

 

It is contradictive in my opinion to say that Yin or female as you relate it, is stronger than Yang.

Yin is nothing without Yang and vice versa.

 

Maybe more Yin is stronger than less Yang and maybe More Yang is stronger than less Yin, but to say as a whole that Yin is stronger, or that Yang is stronger - goes against the very nature of Taoism and the perceived universe.

 

A martial artist with greater Yang force will overcome a martial artist with minor Yin and one with a great force of Yin will easily overcome someone with less Yang - But one being more powerful than the other, should not come out of the mouth of a Taoist as far as i am concerned.

 

It is in dis-balance that illusionary power is created, and in balance that true power is generated, not the other way around.

 

It's like saying that if you throw a girl in a fight with a guy, by the laws of the universe she must win, because girls are naturally Yin...

[z00se]

I only just read a few parts of this thread here and there.... But heres my thoughts.....

 

Yin is the stagnent unlimited potential, but unless it gets the boot of the yang up it to get moving it is nothing. It isn't creative on it's own but it has potential.

 

Yang is the most supreme energy - moving power but without substance, fuel.. it is nothing. It is creative on its own but if it has nothing to use to create something from it is useless.

 

There are many different mix ratios between the two which give birth to the well known 5 different elements - and more.

 

So yeah, man causes creation to happen. Women provide the substance to make it possible.

 

 

(I did have to control myself not to word it so that men were better hehe )

[Andrei]

Some of your posts i agree with, that one on the other hand i totally don't.

 

It is contradictive in my opinion to say that Yin or female as you relate it, is stronger than Yang.

Yin is nothing without Yang and vice versa.

 

Maybe more Yin is stronger than less Yang and maybe More Yang is stronger than less Yin, but to say as a whole that Yin is stronger, or that Yang is stronger - goes against the very nature of Taoism and the perceived universe.

 

A martial artist with greater Yang force will overcome a martial artist with minor Yin and one with a great force of Yin will easily overcome someone with less Yang - But one being more powerful than the other, should not come out of the mouth of a Taoist as far as i am concerned.

 

It is in dis-balance that illusionary power is created, and in balance that true power is generated, not the other way around.

 

It's like saying that if you throw a girl in a fight with a guy, by the laws of the universe she must win, because girls are naturally Yin...

 

 

You are totally right!

 

 

sCFdO2WoOEk

 

 

[effilang]

that hilarious Steam lol

 

The guy wasn't even interested in fighting.

He was just trying to feel as much boobie as he could while it lasts.

 

I can't blame him

Edited December 12, 2009 by effilang

[lino]

You are totally right!

sCFdO2WoOEk

 

I thought she was winning for over 3/4s of that video.

[Non]

so yin and yang theory has become 'sexist'. Yang is considered masculine (of course in a 'human's' perspective), and yin is considered feminine in a human's perspective... So all that really that yin and yang have to do with is the qualities of masculine and feminine generalizations like light is bright hot is" masculine" is "hard" yang, or dark is dull is cold is is "feminine" is "soft"is yin.

 

etc.

 

who comes up with what is considered "feminine" or "masculine"

Edited December 12, 2009 by Non

[lino]

Some of your posts i agree with, that one on the other hand i totally don't.

 

It is contradictive in my opinion to say that Yin or female as you relate it, is stronger than Yang.

Yin is nothing without Yang and vice versa.

 

Maybe more Yin is stronger than less Yang and maybe More Yang is stronger than less Yin, but to say as a whole that Yin is stronger, or that Yang is stronger - goes against the very nature of Taoism and the perceived universe.

 

A martial artist with greater Yang force will overcome a martial artist with minor Yin and one with a great force of Yin will easily overcome someone with less Yang - But one being more powerful than the other, should not come out of the mouth of a Taoist as far as i am concerned.

 

It is in dis-balance that illusionary power is created, and in balance that true power is generated, not the other way around.

 

It's like saying that if you throw a girl in a fight with a guy, by the laws of the universe she must win, because girls are naturally Yin...

 

That depends on what you call "winning" since the girl wins either way.

 

A. the guy "wins" and looks like a bully...he still loses

B. the guy "wins" and it is close, he looks weak

C. the guy "loses" and he looks weak

 

Yin wins

[effilang]

That depends on what you call "winning" since the girl wins either way.

 

Did you just wake up? - What do you mean what do i call "winning" in a martial fight? Obviously i mean TKO, KO, Submission or Death.

 

A. the guy "wins" and looks like a bully...he still loses

 

1. a blustering, quarrelsome, overbearing person who habitually badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people.

 

For you to qualify the guy as a bully if he wins. It shows that you inherently feel girls are less competent martial artists.

 

B. the guy "wins" and it is close, he looks weak

 

You are so incredibly biased, which is why you're incapable of having this conversation sensibly. If the guy wins and it is close, it goes to show the woman was a worthy opponent, as it would with any other gender. You are caught in the spider web of social sexual brainwashing.

 

C. the guy "loses" and he looks weak

 

If the guy loses, it is because at that point his opponent was stronger. Which is why i said, More Yin & Yang will overcome less Yin & Yang, or More Yin will overcome less Yang and vice versa. Your views lean entirely on false sexual propaganda that has been exercised over the history of man due to a lack of understanding.

 

Please note, i am not the one who said Yin is female or Yang is male, the person i replied to implied that. At the beginning of the universe when Yin and Yang were created, there was nothing else in existence to attribute their qualities to objects such as femininity or masculinity, or heaven and earth - These observations are byproducts of our own human understanding and sexual confidence.

 

One might say that Yin is Female, because a female might posses some of the qualities of Yin, but a woman is not solely Yin, nor solely Yang, but a combination of both, a result of the mixture of Yin and Yang. When i discuss here, i do not do it from a sexual perspective, but from a basic Taoist perspective.

 

In a world where women hadn't been sexually oppressed - Do you think your statement would appeal to anyones reason? - If our society was devoid of any sexual preconceptions and prejudice, do you think you could have written what you wrote? - No way... Yin and Yang, is beyond one world and one culture or their archaic misunderstandings, and when their ego is stripped they will join the harmony of nothing.

Edited December 12, 2009 by effilang

[Guest paul walter]

so yin and yang theory has become 'sexist'. Yang is considered masculine (of course in a 'human's' perspective), and yin is considered feminine in a human's perspective... So all that really that yin and yang have to do with is the qualities of masculine and feminine generalizations like light is bright hot is" masculine" is "hard" yang, or dark is dull is cold is is "feminine" is "soft"is yin.

 

etc.

 

who comes up with what is considered "feminine" or "masculine"

 

 

"If you wish to argue with me then we must first define terms" Goethe

People prefer to natter about themselves and their self-absorbed simplicities rather than engage in exploration outside of their comfort/discomfort zone.