Anybody with Tai Chi understanding, please check this out.

[Ohm-Nei]

I'd like to learn this, all about, this, i want to know the balance involved, the movements involved, the ability to maintain perfect posture while throwing his weight around even while off balance, I would like to learn more about this.

[Taomeow]

I'd like to learn this, all about, this, i want to know the balance involved, the movements involved, the ability to maintain perfect posture while throwing his weight around even while off balance, I would like to learn more about this.

 

I like your enthusiasm, I used to get mesmerized by all things taiji when I was first discovering it too, and still am. Where do you live? come to SoCal learn from my taiji teacher -- here's a sample:

 

[mouse]

For what its worth, I don't think Taiji should be about throwing weight about. And Fajin isn't about whippy strikes although it seems to be the understanding of a big majority of "taiji" players.

 

Which is why many internet discussions get confusing because everyone discusses on a different platform.

[Taomeow]

For what its worth, I don't think Taiji should be about throwing weight about. And Fajin isn't about whippy strikes although it seems to be the understanding of a big majority of "taiji" players.

 

Which is why many internet discussions get confusing because everyone discusses on a different platform.

 

What is your personal experience with taiji, mouse? Who is your teacher and what is his/her lineage?

 

My teacher's teachers in Chen village trace theirs to Zhang Sanfeng, the inventor of taiji. His other teachers are all in the "top ten taiji masters of the world" category and his main one, Li Deyin, is THE guy who actually made taiji available to the world outside China. If the way these people do their taiji is not authentic enough for you, what is?.. Please share.

[Gerard]

You'll learn more from this video:

 

 

 

Btw, Zhang Sanfeng was as real as Santa Claus. One example:

 

http://www.chiarts.com/home/100.html?task=view

Edited December 8, 2009 by durkhrod chogori

[mouse]

What is your personal experience with taiji, mouse? Who is your teacher and what is his/her lineage?

 

My teacher's teachers in Chen village trace theirs to Zhang Sanfeng, the inventor of taiji. His other teachers are all in the "top ten taiji masters of the world" category and his main one, Li Deyin, is THE guy who actually made taiji available to the world outside China. If the way these people do their taiji is not authentic enough for you, what is?.. Please share.

 

 

Hey Taomeow,

 

I'm not really keen on lineages as it is not the lineage but the practiioner that makes the art. However to answer your question, I train with Heaven Man Earth with Sifu Adam Mizner who sometimes also posts on this forum. The lineage since you are interested follows the Yang Chen Fu, Zheng Man Qing, Huang Xing Xian line.

 

I do now know how you may classify as authentic taiji however in my books, one sign of an adept taiji player is the ability to mobilise jin from a dead halt. Of course the ability to fa jin is just one part of the parcel.

 

Regarding Zhang San Feng, I personally think he existed however, i am interested to know how your teacher's teachers can trace it definitively. I was under the assumption that it was always a bit of a grey area.

'

I am also a bit curious as to why you seem to think that "Li Deyin is THE guy who actually made taiji available to the world outside China." I can reference many people who make the same claim of a population of over a billion.

 

I hope I answered your queries well and hope you can provide me some insights into your claims too.

 

mouse

Edited December 8, 2009 by mouse

[Taomeow]

Hey Taomeow,

 

I'm not really keen on lineages as it is not the lineage but the practiioner that makes the art. However to answer your question, I train with Heaven Man Earth with Sifu Adam Mizner who sometimes also posts on this forum. The lineage since you are interested follows the Yang Chen Fu, Zheng Man Qing, Huang Xing Xian line.

 

I do now know how you may classify as authentic taiji however in my books, one sign of an adept taiji player is the ability to mobilise jin from a dead halt. Of course the ability to fa jin is just one part of the parcel.

 

Regarding Zhang San Feng, I personally think he existed however, i am interested to know how your teacher's teachers can trace it definitively. I was under the assumption that it was always a bit of a grey area.

'

I am also a bit curious as to why you seem to think that "Li Deyin is THE guy who actually made taiji available to the world outside China." I can reference many people who make the same claim of a population of over a billion.

 

I hope I answered your queries well and hope you can provide me some insights into your claims too.

 

mouse

 

No problem. Here goes:

 

I know my teacher's lineage because it is meticulously documented and his teacher endorsed him to transmit the art with a personal signature, the way it is traditionally done, generation after generation, so not just any "practitioner" or "student" of a master can claim he or she "embodies the art" but the one who the teacher says does. You can find this document on his website. Where can I take a look at this kind of endorsement of Sifu Mizner?

 

Li Deyin was President of China's Wushu Federation from before and till after China "opened up," so he was not making claims but rather occupying the official post of a decision-maker in this matter.

 

Zhang Sanfeng is "grey area" to taiji outsiders but not to residents of Chen village who all know who is related to whom.

 

Now the disagreement part... hey, are we playing cat and mouse? you're one brave mouse!

"The ability to mobilize jin from a dead halt" and "authentic taiji" have as much in common as "the ability to sneeze" and "authentic fire-breathing dragon." The video I posted was a sample lesson, not a sample of "abilities." The lesson was "fajin." Fajin is authentic at all distances when it's authentic. True that an inch-long release is far deadlier than a foot-long release, but my teacher doesn't use that on his students and no one could demo a technique for this in a video without cheating. I've experienced it though. I am not sure a millimeter-long jin (your "dead halt") or an even shorter one will ever be shown to me by anyone till I'm ready. (I asked two of Wang Liping's senior students and a few of their students, when they were fooling around with electroshocking each other across the room, to show me hands-on what they were doing, and they refused, explaining that they don't know me well enough to know what it might do to me. I can assure you they weren't putting on a performance for my benefit -- I was the only outsider there and walked in when they were already at it. Any responsible high level master would put a very short fajin on hold this way till the student is ready. Useless and dangerous otherwise.)

[mouse]

Hi Taomeow,

 

Again the cert is a bit silly so I've never asked my sifu to see it, however he does have endorsement and yes awarded a certificate through the school to teach. You can ask him for it if you want. I don't know why anyone would put it up on a website for download though. I suppose the skill is sufficient for me when I touch.

 

Regarding the training of Wang Li Ping you were talking about, I believe that would be fa chi. not Jin. Very different things. I would consider that in my training as streaming vital energy not Jin.

 

mouse

Edited December 8, 2009 by mouse

[Ryan T.]

Zhang Sanfeng is "grey area" to taiji outsiders but not to residents of Chen village who all know who is related to whom.

 

A more historical description of the beginnings of Taiji.

 

This comes from one of the two disciples of T.T. Liang, who was one of Cheng Man-ching's highest students.

 

To believe that these forms have been handed down for hundreds, if not thousands, of years is romantic and tends to serve as poetry more than anything else. It is probably more like Santa Claus than we want to admit.

 

And just so you know, what you describe is how everyone talks about their lineage. We tend to believe our teachers/schools about this stuff. But it doesn't make it reality.

 

I do, however, think there is agreement that Taiji in its current form, whatever style it might be, originated from the Chen style and the Chen village.

[Marblehead]

Okay. So I felt the need to watch the video.

 

I didn't find it a very impressive demonstration of Tai Chi. (No, I'm not easily impressed. Oh well.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Yuen Biao]

You'll learn more from this video:

 

 

That is one of the best Taijiquan videos I have seen, thank you.

[Marblehead]

Okay.

 

I think that this one is impressive:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf44kawWBvY...feature=related

 

Peace & Love!

[Ohm-Nei]

You'll learn more from this video:

 

Btw, Zhang Sanfeng was as real as Santa Claus. One example:

 

http://www.chiarts.com/home/100.html?task=view

 

I'd now like to find a book that i can read that will guide me toward how to practice this amazing stuff.

 

I've seen push hands and flying trainee's but i've never considered any of the videos to be very credible, this one was very interesting, thank you!

 

More Direct question - How could I prepare myself to feel or experience the mechanics of this by myself?

 

I don't have anyone to push hands with although that would be nice, and most likely unnecessary at this point, but it there any exercises or props i can use to help me understand the concepts of Fa Jin as seen here?

Edited December 8, 2009 by Ohm-Nei

[Apech]

Okay.

 

I think that this one is impressive:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf44kawWBvY...feature=related

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Yes I like that one Marbles - but it seems you have to be bald to practice (?)

 

I think Taomeow's is the most impressive so far ... keep them coming guys.

[Marblehead]

Yes I like that one Marbles - but it seems you have to be bald to practice (?)

 

Hehehe. No, baldness is not required. But if there is no hair one will not be distracted by it falling into one's face and in front of one's eyes. (And it is so much easier to care for.)

 

Peace & Love!

[Ohm-Nei]

How could I practice FaJin with nothing more than a suspended punching bag?

[fiveelementtao]

How could I practice FaJin with nothing more than a suspended punching bag?

 

Find...

 

 

A....

 

 

Teacher...

Edited December 9, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Andrei]

My teacher's teachers in Chen village trace theirs to Zhang Sanfeng, the inventor of taiji.

 

Ha ha, actually all teachers teachers of taijiquan trace their lineage to Zhang Sanfeng.

 

And Chen village has nothing to do with Zhang Sanfeng.

Chen Wang Ting (1597-1664) was the inventor of Chen village boxing. They say that Jian Fa a taoist monk bring the taoist internal arts to Chen village. Some of them say Jian Fa was the student of Chen Wangting, other say Chen Wangting combined Shaolin boxing with the soft style of the taoist internal arts and created Chen village boxing. And there are some that say Chen Wang Ting lived in Ming dynasty (1368-1644) and Jian Fa lived in Ching dynasty (1644-1911) so there is no connection between them. Exception being the fact that Jian Fa was a 20 years old monk who teached taoist arts to a 67 years old general with many experiences in the battlefield

 

Yang style tradition say that Jiang Fa teached wudang taoist arts to Chen Chang Xin and from there on Chen village boxing became soft and internal. And the teacher of Jiang Fa is supposed to be Wang Tsun Yueh, which is supposed to learn from Chang Sung Chi which was a wudang taoist monk which is supposed to have a link with Zhang Sanfeng.... just too many suppositions.

 

And Santa Claus existed. It was bishop in Myra (Anatolia/Turkey) in 346 AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

Edited December 9, 2009 by steam

[Taomeow]

Ha ha, actually all teachers teachers of taijiquan trace their lineage to Zhang Sanfeng.

 

And Chen village has nothing to do with Zhang Sanfeng.

Chen Wang Ting (1597-1664) was the inventor of Chen village boxing. They say that Jian Fa a taoist monk bring the taoist internal arts to Chen village. Some of them say Jian Fa was the student of Chen Wangting, other say Chen Wangting combined Shaolin boxing with the soft style of the taoist internal arts and created Chen village boxing. And there are some that say Chen Wang Ting lived in Ming dynasty (1368-1644) and Jian Fa lived in Ching dynasty (1644-1911) so there is no connection between them. Exception being the fact that Jian Fa was a 20 years old monk who teached taoist arts to a 67 years old general with many experiences in the battlefield

 

Yang style tradition say that Jiang Fa teached wudang taoist arts to Chen Chang Xin and from there on Chen village boxing became soft and internal. And the teacher of Jiang Fa is supposed to be Wang Tsun Yueh, which is supposed to learn from Chang Sung Chi which was a wudang taoist monk which is supposed to have a link with Zhang Sanfeng.... just too many suppositions.

 

And Santa Claus existed. It was bishop in Myra (Anatolia/Turkey) in 346 AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas

After several years of this kind of discussions on taijiquan forums, with arguments and counterarguments, sources and countersources, haha and haha yourself and so on, I don't pick them up anymore, sorry. I will take Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang's (both regularly do workshops hosted by my teacher) and Chen Bing's (who did once too) word for it instead because I don't much care but someone who embodies taiji seldom strikes me as a fantacising dufus or a self-serving liar, unlike many who embody armchair research.

 

And mouse, we're talking apples and oranges... or is it cheese and mice?..

[Andrei]

I don't much care but someone who embodies taiji

 

me too

[minkus]

The fun starts at 1m 50s

 

[松永道]

Btw, Zhang Sanfeng was as real as Santa Claus. One example:

 

http://www.chiarts.com/home/100.html?task=view

 

There were two Zhang Sanfeng. One from the Jin/Yuan period and the other Ming period. Some claim these two were the same person, and that man lived for about 200 years. However, the Jin/Yuan Zhang Sanfeng practiced dual-cultivation, the Ming Zhang Sanfeng practiced solo cultivation learned from Huolong Zhenren.

 

Zhang Sanfeng was as real as anyone in history can be real. However, just how much he had to do with the creating of Taijiquan or Neijiaquan is a matter of debate. Whoever did create Taijiquan had both knowledge and accomplishment in neidan cultivation and in martial arts. The custom of many Daoist monks was a philosophy of "leave no trace", you could say, so many teachers of the art asked students not to cast them on the pages of history. However, out of piety for the ancestors, they upheld that the tradition was created by Zhang Sanfeng.

 

The Li family history reveals Chen Wangting learned Taiji in a temple, maintaining the Daoist transmission theory. However, as Chen Wangting was also a minor general who was accomplished in Hongquan, Chen-style Taiji displays obvious Hongquan influences, with cannon-fist, stomping, raised elbows, etc. Neighboring Zhaobao village, concurrently transmitted a Taiji style that has very similar movements to Chen-style but minus the Hongquan influence. Often Zhaobao, Wu, and Sun (Wu and Sun branched from Zhaobao) claim Jiang Fa brought Taijiquan to the area and taught both Chen Wangting and Xin Xihuai (the Zhaobao 2nd generation lineage holder). Whereas Chen Stylists claim either Jiang Fa learned the art from Chen Wangting or Chen Qingping (a 7th generation lineage holder claimed by both Zhaobao and Chen) moved to Zhaobao and started the Zhaobao tradition.

 

Even the history of Chen Qingping (1795-1868) is pretty messy. Chen claim he studied Chen style because his name is Chen, although there were plenty of Chens outside Chen village. Zhaobao claims he studied Zhaobao style because he lived in Zhaobao and none of his students learned Chen style, though they did go on to create four different Zhaobao styles (Dailijia, Tengnuojia, Huleijia, Linglajia) and also Wu style. After this, things clear up and the lineages are pretty traceable.

 

Chinese history is pretty good for chronicling names and places. But when it comes down to who these people were and exactly what they did, things can break down. It doesn't help matters that Chinese look to the past for legitimacy, the older, the better. There are plenty of qigong and even some Taiji teachers who claim their lineage goes back to Laozi or Huangdi which is really just silly.

 

In the end, a real taiji system has three goals

Health cultivation

Martial cultivation

Dao cultivation

 

How it accomplishes these goals is described in the Taiji classics attributed to Zhang Sanfeng and Wang Zongyue. Wu Yuxiang, Chen Qingping's student who created the Wu lineage, also wrote a good treatise.

[Taomeow]

There were two Zhang Sanfeng. One from the Jin/Yuan period and the other Ming period. Some claim these two were the same person, and that man lived for about 200 years. However, the Jin/Yuan Zhang Sanfeng practiced dual-cultivation, the Ming Zhang Sanfeng practiced solo cultivation learned from Huolong Zhenren.

 

Zhang Sanfeng was as real as anyone in history can be real. However, just how much he had to do with the creating of Taijiquan or Neijiaquan is a matter of debate. Whoever did create Taijiquan had both knowledge and accomplishment in neidan cultivation and in martial arts. The custom of many Daoist monks was a philosophy of "leave no trace", you could say, so many teachers of the art asked students not to cast them on the pages of history. However, out of piety for the ancestors, they upheld that the tradition was created by Zhang Sanfeng.

 

The Li family history reveals Chen Wangting learned Taiji in a temple, maintaining the Daoist transmission theory. However, as Chen Wangting was also a minor general who was accomplished in Hongquan, Chen-style Taiji displays obvious Hongquan influences, with cannon-fist, stomping, raised elbows, etc. Neighboring Zhaobao village, concurrently transmitted a Taiji style that has very similar movements to Chen-style but minus the Hongquan influence. Often Zhaobao, Wu, and Sun (Wu and Sun branched from Zhaobao) claim Jiang Fa brought Taijiquan to the area and taught both Chen Wangting and Xin Xihuai (the Zhaobao 2nd generation lineage holder). Whereas Chen Stylists claim either Jiang Fa learned the art from Chen Wangting or Chen Qingping (a 7th generation lineage holder claimed by both Zhaobao and Chen) moved to Zhaobao and started the Zhaobao tradition.

 

Even the history of Chen Qingping (1795-1868) is pretty messy. Chen claim he studied Chen style because his name is Chen, although there were plenty of Chens outside Chen village. Zhaobao claims he studied Zhaobao style because he lived in Zhaobao and none of his students learned Chen style, though they did go on to create four different Zhaobao styles (Dailijia, Tengnuojia, Huleijia, Linglajia) and also Wu style. After this, things clear up and the lineages are pretty traceable.

 

Chinese history is pretty good for chronicling names and places. But when it comes down to who these people were and exactly what they did, things can break down. It doesn't help matters that Chinese look to the past for legitimacy, the older, the better. There are plenty of qigong and even some Taiji teachers who claim their lineage goes back to Laozi or Huangdi which is really just silly.

 

In the end, a real taiji system has three goals

Health cultivation

Martial cultivation

Dao cultivation

 

How it accomplishes these goals is described in the Taiji classics attributed to Zhang Sanfeng and Wang Zongyue. Wu Yuxiang, Chen Qingping's student who created the Wu lineage, also wrote a good treatise.

That was pretty interesting, thanks.

 

One quick note -- the Chens of the taiji clan outside Chen village branched out to Beijing some of them, and one of the more famous ones among those was actually a Hong -- Hong Jungsheng who taught one of the Four Tigers. (There was a long maoist period when taiji went underground, and its 20th century story is every bit as convoluted -- maybe more so -- as that of its prior centuries, with many distortions introduced on purpose. Researchers who repeat maoist "denouncings" of historical figures as "myths" on a firm foundation of Communist Scientific Materialism without thinking twice ought to be ashamed of themselves...) Many of the top chensters live abroad today, but some are still in Beijing and some, in Chen village. My teacher studied with them both in Beijing and in Chen village, and the substyles of the two places are different, and differences apply to both laojia and xinjia (another misleading label, by the way -- xinjia is not "new" anymore than laojia is!) But at his current level, after 45 years of taiji, there's a distinct flavor to his art that is his own and no one else's. However, he asserts that if he wanted to actually change something in the way it is done beyond sheer flavor, he would have to create a new taiji style (in fact he did, a couple of them, but if he decides to make them public and official he won't name them after anyone but himself) because neither he, nor any other authentic master, can modify a style without losing face if he is not a blood relative -- lineage is not enough to take these liberties, you have to be a son or daughter or uncle or else you're an usurper, traditionally. And "no lineage" and "not interested in lineage" "styles" are not taiji at all... whatever it is may be awesome but it's something else.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Taomeow

[Marblehead]

The fun starts at 1m 50s

 

 

Yeah, That was good except for the Elvis impersonations.

 

Peace & Love!

[mouse]

Just chanced upon a clip and thought it is a good example of tendon power and release of that elastic power.

 

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name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

 

Nothing to do with whippy strikes. You can hit a bag all day shaking your whole body thinking you are doing fa jin but it really isn't the effortless power Taiji fa jin is all about.