Anybody with Tai Chi understanding, please check this out.

[Andrei]

I don't know what he says but what I see in this video is amazing:

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[Stigweard]

I didn't make a peep about anything "magical" -- why did you assume that? I meant a combo of speed arising from slowness the way motion arises from stillness, alignment of a single-unit, thoroughly connected body expressing outward into all its parts simultaneously, flow, congruence and explosive softness that come together to make Chen Bing's qi. What do you think qi is -- "magic energy?" I don't think so. Qi is a pattern of space-time configuration. A harmonious pattern usually produces a harmonious sound, whether audible to the human ear or not. You mean you don't hear anything but the feet?.. Really?..

You see TM, right here we might have a case of you skewing the empirical evidence because "you really want to believe". And it's true also that I might be skewing the other way through my skepticism. And this is exactly the point I have been trying to lay down ... only through the proper testing (i.e. double-blind protocol) can we be acceptably sure what is actually going on here.

 

If he really is firing off "cannonballs" with his clothes then brilliant!

 

However, unless of course your puddytat ears are registering audio beyond the norm , then from where I sit it is very clear that the noises here are the sound of his feet striking the stage.

[mYTHmAKER]

You see TM, right here we might have a case of you skewing the empirical evidence because "you really want to believe". And it's true also that I might be skewing the other way through my skepticism. And this is exactly the point I have been trying to lay down ... only through the proper testing (i.e. double-blind protocol) can we be acceptably sure what is actually going on here.

 

If he really is firing off "cannonballs" with his clothes then brilliant!

 

However, unless of course your puddytat ears are registering audio beyond the norm , then from where I sit it is very clear that the noises here are the sound of his feet striking the stage.

 

 

The main sound is from his feet, however, his clothes - loose sleeves and pants - do whip and make a sound of their own.

My teacher does the same thing. However, if he were to wear a t shirt or tight shirt and regular pants

only his feet would make the sound.

[Andrei]

Maybe you will think I am crazy.... I was a great fan of Chen village style, very excited about all those fajin demonstrations and noises and qi blasts and stomps. I tested them on me and with my friends and I found them unhealthy and unnecessary. And is not only me who is saying that, there are so many teachers and masters out-there that think the same...

 

If you want to strengthen the bones and tendons, shaking a pole is best (tried it) but make sure the pole is shaking and not your body. The smaller your body shaking the better.

If you want to scatter your bad/stagnant qi shaking qigong or self hitting qigong is best.

If you want to harmonize your qi the slower the motion the better.

If you want qi to flow, moving continuously without interruption is best.

If you want to grapple a medium posture is best, not too high not too low. Pushing hands with a partner is essential for grappling.

If you want to knock out people is not necessary a great power, all you need is to be relaxed and to know how to hit a living human not a sandbag or a brick or air. You don't even need qi to shoot, all the qi you need is to keep you in a straight relaxed posture.

 

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Edited December 10, 2009 by steam

[Apech]

Qi is a pattern of space-time configuration. A harmonious pattern usually produces a harmonious sound, whether audible to the human ear or not. You mean you don't hear anything but the feet?.. Really?..

 

Taomeow,

 

What does this mean?

 

In every single video I have seen so far either a) the teacher destroys the balance of the opponent by subtle movement and then pushes using normal force - in this way a small push causes a big effect because the opponents own force is used against them. Anyone, even me when I used to do Aikido could do something like this. or b ) the opponent/student is showing a lot of respect to aged master and moves when he is expected to.

Edited December 10, 2009 by apepch7

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

It isn't magic, it isn't "Qi balls", and.. if you believe it is, you need to visit a 'Fantasy' forum.. momentum, speed, and well-disciplined body mechanics will cause the clothing to make 'whipping sounds', the 'stomp' is a signature of the Chen style.. stop feeding your fantasies. It is just good training and practical common-sense..

 

Be well..

[松永道]

 

If you want to strengthen the bones and tendons, shaking a pole is best (tried it) but make sure the pole is shaking and not your body. The smaller your body shaking the better.

 

 

Could you please elaborate on this? I've never heard of this exercise.

[Taomeow]

Greetings..

 

It isn't magic, it isn't "Qi balls", and.. if you believe it is, you need to visit a 'Fantasy' forum.. momentum, speed, and well-disciplined body mechanics will cause the clothing to make 'whipping sounds', the 'stomp' is a signature of the Chen style.. stop feeding your fantasies. It is just good training and practical common-sense..

 

Be well..

 

Reading comprehension is another useful skill to develop, my friend.

 

Those familiar with my style (of writing, not of taiji) might know I like to use metaphors on a fairly regular basis. This is the first time I have to explain a metaphor -- and it's worse than explaining a joke because the punch line of a metaphor is obtained via aesthetic sense, more elusive than a sense of humor and more subjective -- but I'll have to try.

 

The form demoed is commonly known to Chen practitioners and observers as Cannon Fist. The name of the form itself is thus a metaphor. No cannons are used in reality, and fists don't turn into cannonballs, but the explosive nature of the art has caused its creators to give it this metaphorical name. Following their line of imagery, I used another image along the same lines so as to enrich my writing style -- cannonballs of qi. This was hoped to be appreciated as apt, not taken literally.

 

As for "stop feeding your fantasies" -- besides this being an order (and I don't follow orders except at gunpoint), it is authoritative without authority to back it up. My understanding of qi is my own business, as is your understanding of metaphors which I can't order you to develop, much as I wished you had it.

 

Anyone else who thought "cannonballs of qi" refer to a fantasy of mine, please rest assured they don't. No cannonballs. Just qi and its immediately perceived expressions and impressions (NB -- these are not qi, anymore than love of chocolate is chocolate), transformed into a written image out of a sense of metaphoric similarity, a ganying of images, so to speak. (Please nobody start explaining to me what ganying is and isn't now, OK? )

[Taomeow]

Taomeow,

 

What does this mean?

 

In every single video I have seen so far either a) the teacher destroys the balance of the opponent by subtle movement and then pushes using normal force - in this way a small push causes a big effect because the opponents own force is used against them. Anyone, even me when I used to do Aikido could do something like this. or b ) the opponent/student is showing a lot of respect to aged master and moves when he is expected to.

Apepch,

 

"qi is a pattern of space-time configuration" means my understanding of what qi is. According to this understanding, very different from many more popular ones which I find incorrect, but fully corresponding to its descriptions found in the classics, it is not "force" and it is neither "normal" nor "suprenatural" because it is not "force" to begin with. Different types of qi used in taijiquan are well-delineated in taiji classics. You are describing what one of them, observed externally, looks like. I know of eighteen (there may be more though) and can use a few but not all of them, my own experience being limited, and then there's some I know of and know how they are generated theoretically but can't use them efficiently yet because I don't have enough experience to master this particular space-time configuration of my qi when doing hands-on taiji --

 

e.g., peng, the signature of Chen style (the specifically developed type of qi generating spiral forces, which makes practitioners of other styles with little experience misunderstand Chen due to either observing it from the outside without realizing what it is they're looking at, or practicing it themselves as an external art-- Steam, this, to your objections, you are talking of Chen as an external style, whereas in reality everything it shows on the surface is the outer manifestations of its spiraling peng-qi INSIDE -- and by the way, I stick with laojia because I cannot generate enough peng yet to practice xinjia as an internal art, and I'm not interested at all in surface taiji of any type... if the outer form doesn't connect to the movement of qi inside, it's an external art and will be useless against any hard MA -- which is absolutely the opposite case scenario for taiji done with this internal connection.) Anyway, I digress... Try finding Songs of Taiji online -- if you don't I'll look them up and post what I'm referring to.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Taomeow

[Andrei]

Could you please elaborate on this? I've never heard of this exercise.

 

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It feels very differently than when you perform Cannon Fists in air. It is shaking involved but you are supose to create the vibration in the pole then the vibration comes back into your body and you squeeze all the muscles instantly to damp the vibration and to stop it. In this way the vibration is absorbed into the bones and tendons and they densify. The bones densify (they normally are porous) becouse of the twisting forces and compressing forces on the joints. If you do the shaking in the air there is no twisting and compressing of the bones because there is no reaction to the action. The best way to create twisting is having in hands an excentric weight. The pole itself is excentric, the center of gravity of the pole is 3 to 5 ft away of your own center of gravity so your body and the 10 ft pole create together an harmonyc mechanical system, but your body muscles and tendons are supposed to be the spring and the damping while the pole is the inertial mass.

 

An anologous practice is the tree shaking but the tree is too stiff compared to a human body so I do not think is useful (I tried it on smaller trees). The best is the knocking the two partners between them because they can control the forces and impulses, and in the same time they have to react to the surprises of their partner.

 

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[Taomeow]

Steam, thanks for the pole-shaking videos!

I just made a bamboo pole like that for myself, but haven't used it yet. (My cat, however, tried to use it by knocking it over from the corner where it's standing and onto my head. Luckily there was no serious damage, I'd have a hard time otherwise explaining in the ER that a cat hit me on the head with a stick.)

[Andrei]

I stick with laojia because I cannot generate enough peng yet to practice xinjia as an internal art, and I'm not interested at all in surface taiji of any type... if the outer form doesn't connect to the movement of qi inside, it's an external art and will be useless against any hard MA

 

@\

 

Taomeow, I bow to you with respect, all I wanted to do is just to point some things I observed. I am not a master, teacher, nor lineage holder, not even participant to seminars of famous masters. Just some common sense and some little experience in fighting arts. I did the same as you, sticked to the old school mentality which had the practical reasons behind the veil. The time passes and the body ages, the qi will drop, the jing will dry. "Taichi is about keeping the energy for yourself" as BK Frantzis said into an interview on youtube.

Edited December 10, 2009 by steam

[Apech]

Apepch,

 

"qi is a pattern of space-time configuration" means my understanding of what qi is. ....etc.

 

 

 

Taomeow,

 

I am genuinely interested in your view - but I still don't understand what it is. This phrase 'pattern of space-time configuration' makes sense literally but I don't actually know whether what I think it means is what you mean (If you see what I mean).

 

Explain more if you will.

 

Ta.

 

A.

[Taomeow]

@\

 

Taomeow, I bow to you with respect, all I wanted to do is just to point some things I observed. I am not a master, teacher, nor lineage holder, not even participant to seminars of famous masters. Just some common sense and some little experience in fighting arts. I did the same as you, sticked to the old school mentality which had the practical reasons behind the veil. The time passes and the body ages, the qi will drop, the jing will dry. "Taichi is about keeping the energy for yourself" as BK Frantzis said into an interview on youtube.

And I bow back. My teacher says he won't do it this way when he's old, only for now that he's young and strong and feels expressive and exuberant (he's 53). But then, one of HIS teachers was staying at his place visiting from China, and he complained that the old man (89) exhausted him with an exuberance and enthusiasm greater than his own, wanting to push hands all the time, he said they were always late visiting friends and family because the moment they would finish a practice and go to the parking garage to go somewhere, the guest would jump of joy and go, oh, there's so much space here, much more space than in your living-room, let's do some push-hands!

 

Chen Bing said something that fits in well with what BKF says: "You don't serve taiji. Taiji serves you."

[Ohm-Nei]

And I bow back. My teacher says he won't do it this way when he's old, only for now that he's young and strong and feels expressive and exuberant (he's 53). But then, one of HIS teachers was staying at his place visiting from China, and he complained that the old man (89) exhausted him with an exuberance and enthusiasm greater than his own, wanting to push hands all the time, he said they were always late visiting friends and family because the moment they would finish a practice and go to the parking garage to go somewhere, the guest would jump of joy and go, oh, there's so much space here, much more space than in your living-room, let's do some push-hands!

 

Chen Bing said something that fits in well with what BKF says: "You don't serve taiji. Taiji serves you."

 

I wish I could meet the person that loves to do push-hands...

If I knew how, I would practice it constantly, looks like loads of fun.

[Old Man Contradiction]

Here's the Chen Village style xinjia erlu, aka cannonfist, performed by Chen Bing.

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Yeah he looks good, I like good Chen style.

 

Maybe you will think I am crazy.... I was a great fan of Chen village style, very excited about all those fajin demonstrations and noises and qi blasts and stomps. I tested them on me and with my friends and I found them unhealthy and unnecessary. And is not only me who is saying that, there are so many teachers and masters out-there that think the same...

 

I would like to add to this. You are half right in regards to other practitioners. It is only unhealthy if you can't let go of your tension. My teacher hadn't done cannonfist in 20yrs because it made him feel unhealthy afterward. But now, he is able to circulate his oxygen and do the form, full of fajin, but tension-free. Now it is healthy for him.

 

So Chen being with all of its power is prone to tension. However, if you can let go of the tension then chen is fine and can even be better because its more naturally martially oriented imo.

Edited December 10, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Ohm-Nei]

Yeah he looks good, I like good Chen style.

I would like to add to this. You are half right in regards to other practitioners. It is only unhealthy if you can't let go of your tension. My teacher hadn't done cannonfist in 20yrs because it made him feel unhealthy afterward. But now, he is able to circulate his oxygen and do the form, full of fajin, but tension-free. Now it is healthy for him.

 

So Chen being with all of its power is prone to tension. However, if you can let go of the tension then chen is fine and can even be better because its more naturally martially oriented imo.

 

So, completely relaxed body and a strong confident mind is all you need to in order to understand martial arts?

[Marblehead]

So, completely relaxed body and a strong confident mind is all you need to in order to understand martial arts?

 

Can I say that this is only a first step? - the first step of a journey of a thousand miles.

 

Peace & Love!

[Old Man Contradiction]

To my eyes, Feng ZhiQiang has always looked like he's missing something essential to his movement.

 

I found a video of Feng ZhiQiang's Chen Form and I was impressed. I retract the above statement.

 

Can I say that this is only a first step? - the first step of a journey of a thousand miles.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Definitely for the actual art form. Although, conditioning was probably my first step.

 

These martial arts were originally taught to farmers and workers who were already in great condition. That's why training used to be so much harder, e.g. standing for hours daily for years before learning any form. Most of us who have lived our whole life in front of a screen, maybe playing sports seasonally in younger years, need to rehabilitate our bodies. This is why conditioning was my first step and is still a big part of my training.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[doc benway]

Hi Steve,

 

I know where you stand on this issue and do not really want to get into a long drawn out arguement about it. I have seen the taiji your school does and can understand why we often stand on 2 different ends on the spectrum.

 

However, if you really want to test it out for yourself. Sifu Adam is going to be travelling to the US in May for his seminar tour there and maybe you can visit. Just a suggestion. It is a lot easier to show you something in person than trying to type it as everyone's preconceptions are different making discussion quite futile.

 

Perhaps after you meet, you can post up your experience here on Taobums to share.

 

Sincerly,

mouse

Gotcha - I recall some of those discussions. That's fine.

When and where will Adam be traveling?

Will you be traveling with him?

Perhaps we could meet.

I'd enjoy that.

Steve

[mouse]

Gotcha - I recall some of those discussions. That's fine.

When and where will Adam be traveling?

Will you be traveling with him?

Perhaps we could meet.

I'd enjoy that.

Steve

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

I wish I could travel with Sifu but the time commitment is too much for me as I have work but I believe Sifu's top disciples should be with him. I would have enjoyed making the trip.

 

Below are the tour dates and it is best to book through Benjamin Sanchez the Instructor/Student in Miami as he is organising the US visit.

 

How do the dates/location look for you? I hope they suit.

 

Benjamin Sanchez

HME Taiji Int, Miami branch

305 360 9198

 

Portland: May 29th - Bamboo Grove Salon -

134 SE Taylor St.

Portland, OR 97214

(971) 207-8476

 

Boulder: June 5th - Terry Ray sala

305 360 9198

 

Austin: June 12th - Austin Fitness Martial Arts

4327 S. 1st St. Suite 104D

Austin,TX. 78745

(512) 707-8977

 

Knoxville: June 19th - Clear's Tai Chi

113 E. Broadway Ave

Maryville, TN

865-379-9997

 

Miami: June 26 - HME Miami

305 360 9198

 

 

Benjamin Sanchez

HME Taiji Int, Miami branch

305 360 9198

[doc benway]

Hi Steve,

 

I wish I could travel with Sifu but the time commitment is too much for me as I have work but I believe Sifu's top disciples should be with him. I would have enjoyed making the trip.

 

Below are the tour dates and it is best to book through Benjamin Sanchez the Instructor/Student in Miami as he is organising the US visit.

 

How do the dates/location look for you? I hope they suit.

 

Benjamin Sanchez

HME Taiji Int, Miami branch

305 360 9198

 

Portland: May 29th - Bamboo Grove Salon -

134 SE Taylor St.

Portland, OR 97214

(971) 207-8476

 

Boulder: June 5th - Terry Ray sala

305 360 9198

 

Austin: June 12th - Austin Fitness Martial Arts

4327 S. 1st St. Suite 104D

Austin,TX. 78745

(512) 707-8977

 

Knoxville: June 19th - Clear's Tai Chi

113 E. Broadway Ave

Maryville, TN

865-379-9997

 

Miami: June 26 - HME Miami

305 360 9198

Benjamin Sanchez

HME Taiji Int, Miami branch

305 360 9198

Unfortunately, none of those locations are anywhere near me.

My family is in Florida (~ 4 hours from Miami) so if I can work out a visit, I might be able to hook up with them in Miami. The next best would be Tennessee but that's a long haul. Thanks for the info.

Steve

 

 

 

 

These martial arts were originally taught to farmers and workers who were already in great condition.

That may be true for some but, historically, the majority of high level martial arts instruction was limited to wealthy families that could afford to take the time to train and afford the services of a qualified teacher. The average farmer and peasant didn't have the time to train or the money to pay a teacher and very few teachers in China give/gave away their knowledge to anyone other than immediate family. I think it's worth being aware of that when considering Chinese martial arts.

[Old Man Contradiction]

That may be true for some but, historically, the majority of high level martial arts instruction was limited to wealthy families that could afford to take the time to train and afford the services of a qualified teacher. The average farmer and peasant didn't have the time to train or the money to pay a teacher and very few teachers in China give/gave away their knowledge to anyone other than immediate family. I think it's worth being aware of that when considering Chinese martial arts.

 

Yeah I did some research and typically you are right. My main examples are Guo Yunshen from his family of horse breeders, Dong Haichuan from the lower class, and Yang Luchan from family of farmers. Either way, I have found conditioning to be invaluable.

[Iskote]

Here's a few more interesting tai chi videos:

 

Old Master of Chen Style:

 

Lesser known style: Funei (Imperial) Yang Style - Wisdom Fist Form - by Li Zheng

Nice soft flowing style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdscFyAZurI&

 

Here's an example of other Funei Yang forms (some very different moves in here) - by Li Zheng

Not sure of the exact history of these forms.

 

Best wishes...

Edited December 14, 2009 by Iskote

[mouse]

Here's a few more interesting tai chi videos:

 

Old Master of Chen Style:

 

Lesser known style: Funei (Imperial) Yang Style - Wisdon Fist Form - by Li Zheng

Nice soft flowing style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdscFyAZurI&

 

Here's an example of other Funei Yang forms (some very different moves in here) - by Li Zheng

Not sure of the exact history of these forms.

 

Best wishes...

 

Hi,

 

Li Zheng is the official lineage holder for Funei pai Taiji. I believe he is the 6th Generation lineage holder.

 

I used to train with a disciple of Li Zheng, He Cheng De and their explaination of Funei pai taiji's claim is that is it the teachings reserved for the imperial body guards taught by the Yang family when they were hired to train the palace guards. Hence the word Fu Nei meaning "within the mansion"

 

I think it holds truth as they actually have 10 different forms with each form focusing on a particular training technique. Sounds very military like.

 

However, I believe the history is that the Yang family just taught silly kung fu to the palace guards as they were considered their babarin overlords (Manchurian).

 

I believe it to be true as I find the funei pai taiji superficial and had no internal content. This is just my personal opinion and my own experience only from my time with them.

 

mouse