Anybody with Tai Chi understanding, please check this out.

[Marblehead]

Just chanced upon a clip and thought it is a good example of tendon power and release of that elastic power.

 

Yeah, I think that was a good, honest demonstration.

 

Peace & Love!

[Eternal_Student]

Just chanced upon a clip and thought it is a good example of tendon power and release of that elastic power.

 

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="

name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="

type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

 

Nothing to do with whippy strikes. You can hit a bag all day shaking your whole body thinking you are doing fa jin but it really isn't the effortless power Taiji fa jin is all about.

 

 

Nice!

[Ohm-Nei]

Yeah, That was good except for the Elvis impersonations.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Would you say that what is being performed is focused on balance?

 

I feel like the teacher is somehow "falling" into the other person through contact, It's really tough to try and understand/explain whats going on here because I feel like I'm missing some basic understanding.

 

If anyone is willing to answer all my questions I'd be very happy to pay them something over paypal for their time

[Old Man Contradiction]

Would you say that what is being performed is focused on balance?

 

I feel like the teacher is somehow "falling" into the other person through contact, It's really tough to try and understand/explain whats going on here because I feel like I'm missing some basic understanding.

 

If anyone is willing to answer all my questions I'd be very happy to pay them something over paypal for their time

 

dude, skip the paypal and get your questions answered for free here. OR, use that money to get a teacher.

 

If every muscle in your body is reaching to the opponent, your potential power is at it's most. If not, some muscles are just dead weight. In that particular video, you can see that his elbow attack was not as powerful as it could be. Balance is inherent in any taiji training, but is so fundamental that I think it'd be a waste of time to only focus on that.

Edited December 9, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Marblehead]

dude, skip the paypal and get your questions answered for free here. OR, use that money to get a teacher.

 

If every muscle in your body is reaching to the opponent, your potential power is at it's most. If not, some muscles are just dead weight. In that particular video, you can see that his elbow attack was not as powerful as it could be.

 

Good comments OMC.

 

Indeed, there are many here who can give beginner guidance free of charge. And there are a few Tai Chi techniques well presented and some explained on YouTube. Make sure you understand what it is you are seeking before investing too much of your time and money.

 

Peace & Love!

[Andrei]

Nothing to do with whippy strikes. You can hit a bag all day shaking your whole body thinking you are doing fa jin but it really isn't the effortless power Taiji fa jin is all about.

 

Agree with mouse.

 

This is Chen Taiji Beijing style at its best (imo):

eGWJxJndw6o

 

This is Chen Taiji Fa Jing performance Beijing style at its best:

CPYtoFllHy8

 

This is Zhao Bao performance at its best:

79lfEBj2Ohs

 

The smaller the whipping and shaking the better because otherwise:

1) you loose and scatter the qi

2) it is not efficient from martial pov

3) it gives a false sense of power

 

 

XaZQx6CKimM

 

O6xOYh6HIMA

Edited December 9, 2009 by steam

[Old Man Contradiction]

The smaller the whipping and shaking the better

 

What you posted above is true. The difference between the haymaker, the long distance fa jing, and the micro-fa jing is all in the terminal ballistics.

 

IMO, I like the first Chen videos, he was pretty good. I don't see any power in the Zhau Bao performance, but it looks like it was just for show. To my eyes, Feng ZhiQiang has always looked like he's missing something essential to his movement. This is hard to say based on video too, because I've never seen a video that amounted up to what I've seen in person. In other words, low quality videos suck at capturing high calibre martial arts. And again, all IMO.

 

IMO the best Cannon Fist i've found is actually at the top of the youtube search for Cannon Fist. She's actually got a really perfected form, and her power is good.

ooYPkyf_U6k

 

I really like Sifu Fong's Chen Form. His power is awesome.

 

zs33fG_oI2U

Edited December 9, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Taomeow]

Agree with mouse.

 

The smaller the whipping and shaking the better because otherwise:

1) you loose and scatter the qi

2) it is not efficient from martial pov

3) it gives a false sense of power

XaZQx6CKimM

 

O6xOYh6HIMA

Um... no. Merely substylistic differences between xinjia and laojia, younger practitioner and older, the same practitioner in different moods, and so on. It's all one snake. The snake can reveal itself or conceal itself, it's still the same power -- it's either there or it isn't, and how much someone wants to make graphic for a student to see has nothing to do with how powerful it is. Xinjia reveals it all, doesn't become less powerful. Laojia conceals much though not all of it, doesn't become less powerful. Yang style conceals more than laojia.

 

Which may be the root of much misinterpretations out there -- 95% of all taiji in this country is Yang, we chensters are always misunderstood. The Chens started teaching to the public only some 30 years ago, and in this country, less than that, so most Americans with some "tai chee" don't understand Chen. They see good or great of immortal Chen and think it's bad Yang or something. My teacher once said that Yang is like a river flowing over a smooth bed of sand, and Chen is like a river flowing over a rocky bed, over rapids, sometimes cliffs, sometimes even waterfalls -- there will be sudden explosions all over the place, but that doesn't make the river any less powerful. Same flow, different river.

 

OK, now lemme watch what you posted...

Edited December 9, 2009 by Taomeow

[doc benway]

 

Nothing to do with whippy strikes. You can hit a bag all day shaking your whole body thinking you are doing fa jin but it really isn't the effortless power Taiji fa jin is all about.

Hi Mouse,

Would you please clarify what you mean by 'effortless' in "effortless power Taiji fa jin is all about" ?

Thanks,

Steve

[Apech]

My observation is:

 

Destroy the opponents balance - draw their dantien out of its position (within frame of body) then quite a small push sends them flying.

 

 

These vids are very interesting. Thanks for posting.

[Andrei]

how much someone wants to make graphic for a student to see has nothing to do with how powerful it is.

 

 

Agree again but martial arts is about feeling not seeing. Taijiquan was a martial art designed to hide the real power. Yang Luchan said "Taichi must be divided into tenths, hundredths, thousandths of an inch" or somethin similar. Chen Fake said "the smaller the shaking the better". And he was shaking the ten feet pole each day hundreds of times. And they were fighters not qigong masters.

 

And I can prove it to you mathematically for mechanical systems as well as for electrical systems. It is all about "increasing the vibrational frequency" as Ya Mu would say.

Edited December 9, 2009 by steam

[Stigweard]

Ok ... here is a challenge.

 

I am interested if anyone can post up some vids of fajin (of the seemingly magical kind) being performed in proper scientific conditions.

 

As I said over here: http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=159192

The very real problem with this is that these sorts of demonstrations can, and have been, faked. This faking is not necessarily intentional either as it can be more of a subjective self-hypnosis in that the individual, so wanting to believe, creates the result themselves. People can come to delude themselves like this through a groupie hero-worshipping process as well. In wanting to place their teacher on a pedastal they imbue their guru with super-natural powers and act accordingly (i.e. they "play out" the phenomenon).

 

Now I am not saying that "I don't believe in these abilities". I have enough experience in mystic phenomenon to easily allow for such achievements. I am also not saying, "They are all fake" as I am sure a few may well be the "real deal." The issue I have is when these masters publicly display and advertise these abilities without credible evidence to support their claims.

 

By "credible evidence" I mean strict double-blind tests. Please don't give me the worn-out "come and feel it yourself" rhetoric. My subjective experience of a phenomena is just as questionable as anyone elses. The only credible evidence would be a conclusive success of such abilities within the environment of double-blind protocol. Because, if you can't produce these results on a completely random, unbiased subject, what is the practical worth of it? If all you can do is demonstrate it on your own inner circle of students then it smacks of the cloistered guru-worshipping that I mentioned above.

All the clips and vids so far in this thread cannot be used as scietific evidence because they are not double-blind. So lets see what we can dig up.

 

[Taomeow]

 

Agree again but martial arts is about feeling not seeing. Taijiquan was a martial art designed to hide the real power. Yang Luchan said "Taichi must be divided into tenths, hundredths, thousandths of an inch" or somethin similar. Chen Fake said "the smaller the shaking the better". And he was shaking the ten feet pole each day hundreds of times. And they were fighters not qigong masters.

 

And I can prove it to you mathematically for mechanical systems as well as for electrical systems. It is all about "increasing the vibrational frequency" as Ya Mu would say.

 

We're talking apples and oranges again. The smaller the jin the better if you want to do harm to an enemy, but not if you want to teach someone what it is and how to develop it. You don't start with the fine details in anything, you start with the bigger picture and then zoom in, and then zoom in more... You don't hide the power from the student you teach. You hide it from the enemy you fight. In my taiji class you're taught everything -- to hide, to display, to use short jin and long jin, to feel, to see, and of course to use whatever you like out of taiji's inexhaustible martial arsenal as a weapon. There's many ways to use a weapon. My personal favorite is the use of the opponent's strength vs. my own in the 100% to 0% proportion. I don't need fajin for that at all. I do fajin for bone health, not for fighting. If I were to want jin for fighting, the way you work on shortening it is lengthening your meditation -- ideally your taiji routine-based meditation -- if I go through my form in 15 minutes I will never have it, if I take an hour and 15 minutes for the same routine, every day, I'll have it in a year. We are taught how to use the routine itself as a standing-moving-standing-moving etc. meditation -- each and every position -- your tendons explode with short-wave jin by themselves if you do that... have you ever tried?..

[mouse]

Hi Mouse,

Would you please clarify what you mean by 'effortless' in "effortless power Taiji fa jin is all about" ?

Thanks,

Steve

 

 

Hi Steve,

 

I know where you stand on this issue and do not really want to get into a long drawn out arguement about it. I have seen the taiji your school does and can understand why we often stand on 2 different ends on the spectrum.

 

However, if you really want to test it out for yourself. Sifu Adam is going to be travelling to the US in May for his seminar tour there and maybe you can visit. Just a suggestion. It is a lot easier to show you something in person than trying to type it as everyone's preconceptions are different making discussion quite futile.

 

Perhaps after you meet, you can post up your experience here on Taobums to share.

 

Sincerly,

mouse

[Andrei]

We're talking apples and oranges again. The smaller the jin the better if you want to do harm to an enemy, but not if you want to teach someone what it is and how to develop it. You don't start with the fine details in anything, you start with the bigger picture and then zoom in, and then zoom in more... You don't hide the power from the student you teach. You hide it from the enemy you fight. In my taiji class you're taught everything -- to hide, to display, to use short jin and long jin, to feel, to see, and of course to use whatever you like out of taiji's inexhaustible martial arsenal as a weapon. There's many ways to use a weapon. My personal favorite is the use of the opponent's strength vs. my own in the 100% to 0% proportion. I don't need fajin for that at all. I do fajin for bone health, not for fighting. If I were to want jin for fighting, the way you work on shortening it is lengthening your meditation -- ideally your taiji routine-based meditation -- if I go through my form in 15 minutes I will never have it, if I take an hour and 15 minutes for the same routine, every day, I'll have it in a year. We are taught how to use the routine itself as a standing-moving-standing-moving etc. meditation -- each and every position -- your tendons explode with short-wave jin by themselves if you do that... have you ever tried?..

 

Agreed again, yes I tried so that's why I came to the conclusion all those demonstrations are useless.

 

I am interested if anyone can post up some vids of fajin (of the seemingly magical kind) being performed in proper scientific conditions.

 

This is Chen Xian the top disciple of Feng Zhiqiang:

HN88QIsMHqA

[mouse]

Agreed again, yes I tried so that's why I came to the conclusion all those demonstrations are useless.

This is Chen Xian the top disciple of Feng Zhiqiang:

HN88QIsMHqA

 

Interesting video. However, thats still mobilising mass transfer which is exactly what I mean by whippy strike. In my opinion that data can only show Wai Jin and not Nei Jin which is what Michael Phillips in the other video on the other thread is attempting to demonstrate. Isolating the Jin from the momentum transfer.

 

mouse

[Stigweard]

This is Chen Xian the top disciple of Feng Zhiqiang:

HN88QIsMHqA

Now that's the sort of research we need Even though this could only be considered an introductory study it is the sort upon which further study can be based. It would be interesting to compare, for example, the actual force output generated from Master Chen Xian's punch with the force output of say a conventional punch. It would also be interesting to do this same study across a broader section of Taiji masters.

 

It still doesn't, however, give any substantial evidence for the 'magical' type of fajin. But it is a good start.

 

 

Interesting video. However, thats still mobilising mass transfer which is exactly what I mean by whippy strike. In my opinion that data can only show Wai Jin and not Nei Jin which is what Michael Phillips in the other video on the other thread is attempting to demonstrate. Isolating the Jin from the momentum transfer.

 

mouse

I hear ya mouse. Do you have any clips that would satisfy a double-blind protocol of the Nei Jin that you are referring to?

[Taomeow]

Here's the Chen Village style xinjia erlu, aka cannonfist, performed by Chen Bing. He did a workshop at our school a couple of years ago. The sound you hear in the video -- that's his clothes shooting off cannonballs of qi (no, qi is not "energy," just to reiterate for whoever hasn't heard this mantra of mine ) In a completely open and windy environment it's still loud enough to wonder if it's a special effect like they do in the movies -- it isn't, and in our small gym it was deafening! (Mouse, don't bother watching, I already know... Chen Chen Village style is the direct opposite of what you believe taiji "should" be like.)

 

9sXCoIox2TE

[witch]

He is amazing at that, but the qi balls he is shooting are coming from his feet, not his clothes.

[Taomeow]

He is amazing at that, but the qi balls he is shooting are coming from his feet, not his clothes.

watch closely witch, witch closely watch... why am I stammering? -- yes, many from his feet, but listen closely... some are from his sleeves and his pant legs. During the workshop, it was the shooting pants that especially blew everyone's mind!

[Stigweard]

watch closely witch, witch closely watch... why am I stammering? -- yes, many from his feet, but listen closely... some are from his sleeves and his pant legs. During the workshop, it was the shooting pants that especially blew everyone's mind!

Sorry TM, witch is right, those sounds are most definately coming from his feet hitting the stage. Nice form though, but nothing "magical" happening here.

 

 

Here's another similar (without the cannonballs )

zxxebP0u31g

[Andrei]

why do we hear at 1:37 a "hic" instead of "pow"? he had no bullet in the gun anymore?

[Stigweard]

See now this one here could be used as a reference for a blind test. Set a room up with this sort of saftey gear and, instead of his own students, file a bunch of randomly chosen test subjects in one at a time and monitor the results.

 

V2Qvo_BUmNU

[Taomeow]

Sorry TM, witch is right, those sounds are most definately coming from his feet hitting the stage. Nice form though, but nothing "magical" happening here.

I didn't make a peep about anything "magical" -- why did you assume that? I meant a combo of speed arising from slowness the way motion arises from stillness, alignment of a single-unit, thoroughly connected body expressing outward into all its parts simultaneously, flow, congruence and explosive softness that come together to make Chen Bing's qi. What do you think qi is -- "magic energy?" I don't think so. Qi is a pattern of space-time configuration. A harmonious pattern usually produces a harmonious sound, whether audible to the human ear or not. You mean you don't hear anything but the feet?.. Really?..

[witch]

watch closely witch, witch closely watch... why am I stammering? -- yes, many from his feet, but listen closely... some are from his sleeves and his pant legs. During the workshop, it was the shooting pants that especially blew everyone's mind!

 

Ah, it is my poor hearing then! I went to too many rock concerts in my youth, my hearing is very bad.