War, politics and Nobel Peace Prize war speech.

[ralis]

I was shocked and not surprised when Obama accepted the Nobel Peace Prize and mentioned war 44 times in his acceptance speech! While at the same time the DOJ was filing a brief to get John Yoo off the hook. The concern I have is, if this motion is accepted by the courts, it will overturn war crimes and make null and void the judges trial at Nuremberg in 1947. Nazi judges from the "Ministry of Justice" rendered opinions to allow for war crimes to happen in Europe during the war. The outcome at Nuremberg, created international law making torture and unprovoked attacks against sovereign countries a war crime!

 

Professor Jonathan Turley expresses it well in this video!

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...ress=385x411977

 

Irag: 4 million refugees, 1 million civilians dead. Why?

 

Can we use Taoist knowledge etc. to hold leaders accountable for crimes against humanity? Or, do we just keep our heads in the sand and worry about what kind of enlightened music or the correct cultivation methods to use!

 

 

ralis

[soaring crane]

hold leaders accountable for crimes against humanity?

 

 

Open for suggestions here. Got any?

[Marblehead]

Can we use Taoist knowledge etc. to hold leaders accountable for crimes against humanity? Or, do we just keep our heads in the sand and worry about what kind of enlightened music or the correct cultivation methods to use!

ralis

 

As far back as I can remember I have always felt that we all should be held accountable for our actions. I know that most world leaders like to exempt themselves for this criteria but that does not sway my opinion.

 

I think it is very Taoist that we be held responsible for our actions.

 

My respect for Obama, to this time, still has not deminished. We'll see what time does to my opinion.

 

Peace & Love!

[Encephalon]

Open for suggestions here. Got any?

 

Months ago in my TTB infancy I posed the question over whether Taoism presupposes a political viewpoint. I just about got my balls shot off.

 

My "western" spin goes something like -

 

Taoism = ecology = interdependency = connectedness = unity = an end to duality and "us vs. them" thinking. As Joanna Macy puts it in "World as Lover, World as Self," violence to one is violence to all, (obvious expressions of legitimate self-defense notwithstanding).

 

The reason that we have trouble is that we have a body.

When we have no body, what trouble do we have?

therefore: he who loves the whole world as if it were his own body

Can be trusted with the whole world.

-Tao Te Ching

 

"The Western version of mytical awareness, our version of Buddhism or Taoism, will be ecological awareness."

Fritjof Capra

 

And, I would argue that until we deeply internalize within our consciousness the reality of these ecological linkages, we will continue to fight over resources, which is what most wars always are about, in the final analysis, and the oldest tale in human history.

[Aetherous]

Can we use Taoist knowledge etc. to hold leaders accountable for crimes against humanity? Or, do we just keep our heads in the sand and worry about what kind of enlightened music or the correct cultivation methods to use!

 

It's unwise to start this sort of movement on this forum.

[ralis]

Months ago in my TTB infancy I posed the question over whether Taoism presupposes a political viewpoint. I just about got my balls shot off.

 

My "western" spin goes something like -

 

Taoism = ecology = interdependency = connectedness = unity = an end to duality and "us vs. them" thinking. As Joanna Macy puts it in "World as Lover, World as Self," violence to one is violence to all, (obvious expressions of legitimate self-defense notwithstanding).

 

The reason that we have trouble is that we have a body.

When we have no body, what trouble do we have?

therefore: he who loves the whole world as if it were his own body

Can be trusted with the whole world.

-Tao Te Ching

 

"The Western version of mytical awareness, our version of Buddhism or Taoism, will be ecological awareness."

Fritjof Capra

 

And, I would argue that until we deeply internalize within our consciousness the reality of these ecological linkages, we will continue to fight over resources, which is what most wars always are about, in the final analysis, and the oldest tale in human history.

 

If the Tao is all phenomena, then a political participation is appropriate! Especially when humans are made to suffer! What are the Iraq and Afghanistan wars about? Creating geopolitical stability for oil!! Shell Oil just received the largest oil contract in Iraq.

 

ralis

 

 

It's unwise to start this sort of movement on this forum.

 

Exactly what do you mean?

 

ralis

 

 

As far back as I can remember I have always felt that we all should be held accountable for our actions. I know that most world leaders like to exempt themselves for this criteria but that does not sway my opinion.

 

I think it is very Taoist that we be held responsible for our actions.

 

My respect for Obama, to this time, still has not deminished. We'll see what time does to my opinion.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I am losing a lot of respect for him! I voted for him.

 

ralis

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

War is seldom, if ever, about resources.. it's about ideologies. The 'ideology' may use resources to express their their beliefs, but.. the appropriate 'ideology' understands compassion and sharing.. "a rising tide lifts all boats"..

 

Politics has become a self-perpetuating contest of ideologies, where the interest of the electorate is barely a passing thought.. there are no 'statesmen' left. The healthcare reform, without the Public Option, is the largest windfall the insurance companies have ever had.. 40 million uninsured 'required' to purchase insurance from the same industry that has been inflating prices for the last 3 decades.. there is a disconnect when the democratic majority of congress and its democratic president can't even manifest its own fiscally sound programs.. without the public option to control the pricing, the insurance conglomerate will continue to profit from the nations weaknesses.. and yet, the democrats are so wishy/washy and fearful of 'bad press', they won't even act in the best interest of the people that trusted them to do so..

 

That being said, i do not favor the two-party system.. it has become a game of party survival to the detriment of the governed..

 

Yes, Taoists should speak their truth clearly and resolutely.. one for all and all for one.. hurt one/hurt all ~ help one/help all..

 

Be well..

Edited December 11, 2009 by TzuJanLi

[ralis]

Greetings..

 

War is seldom, if ever, about resources.. it's about ideologies. The 'ideology' may use resources to express their their beliefs, but.. the appropriate 'ideology' understands compassion and sharing.. "a rising tide lifts all boats"..

 

Politics has become a self-perpetuating contest of ideologies, where the interest of the electorate is barely a passing thought.. there are no 'statesmen' left. The healthcare reform, without the Public Option, is the largest windfall the insurance companies have ever had.. 40 million uninsured 'required' to purchase insurance from the same industry that has been inflating prices for the last 3 decades.. there is a disconnect when the democratic majority of congress and its democratic president can't even manifest its own fiscally sound programs.. without the public option to control the pricing, the insurance conglomerate will continue to profit from the nations weaknesses.. and yet, the democrats are so wishy/washy and fearful of 'bad press', they won't even act in the best interest of the people that trusted them to do so..

 

That being said, i do not favor the two-party system.. it has become a game of party survival to the detriment of the governed..

 

Yes, Taoists should speak their truth clearly and resolutely.. on for all and all for one.. hurt one/hurt all ~ help one/help all..

 

Be well..

 

 

The U.S. is rapidly becoming a corporate fascist feudalistic state where the leadership behave as kings with divine rights as opposed to servants to the people.

 

ralis

[rain]

The U.S. is rapidly becoming a corporate fascist feudalistic state where the leadership behave as kings with divine rights as opposed to servants to the people.

 

ralis

 

funny you should say this.

 

the only real smile I saw was when he

posed with the royal family.

 

Edited December 11, 2009 by rain

[lino]

I am losing a lot of respect for him! I voted for him.

 

ralis

 

 

If you check some years back, on that forum, you see that Obama was connected to the DLC. The black commentator website had an article about it some years ago. Basically, what happened was that Obama withdrew from the DLC in order to pay lip service to the more progressive factions of the party. He was in a position to do nothing for the progressive faction of the party (since he was a freshman senator), so no harm done. A few years down the line and you see what you are getting now.

 

Also, the blame isn't entirely upon him. There are 100 Senators and 435 US Reps that share in that blame too.

[lino]

The U.S. is rapidly becoming a corporate fascist feudalistic state where the leadership behave as kings with divine rights as opposed to servants to the people.

 

ralis

 

Sorry but it is just "feudalism" mutated and repackaged.

[Encephalon]

Greetings..

 

War is seldom, if ever, about resources.. it's about ideologies. The 'ideology' may use resources to express their their beliefs, but.. the appropriate 'ideology' understands compassion and sharing.."

 

I couldn't disagree with you more; perhaps we have a "Cart/Horse" chronology disorder. "Seldom, if ever?" The tools we use to secure those resources come and go, be they political or military, but the end is always the same; control over resources and the power over others derived from this control. This is the oldest game in the book, and just about the only real story we studied in grad school (geography).

 

Even the most basic definition of an ideology is about self-interest, which usually puts compassion and sharing in a subordinate relation. I realize the term has acquired multiple meanings of late, but it's still regarded perjoratively.

 

And please explain, in light of your progressive views on the healthcare situation, how you can quote Arthur Laffer's "a rising tide lifts all boats" rationalization for supply side (or, "Voodoo") economics as an example of compassion and sound economic policy.

 

I realize that we all have ideas that cannot be plotted on the EXact same point of the political spectrum, but I'm really having some difficulty finding sensible consistencies with your ideas.

 

This could go off on any number of tangents, but kindly tell us of an example of a military campaign that has been waged over issues other than resources. I'm old enough to know that the words "never" and "always" don't often apply in human affairs.

 

Respectfully,

B

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you check some years back, on that forum, you see that Obama was connected to the DLC. The black commentator website had an article about it some years ago. Basically, what happened was that Obama withdrew from the DLC in order to pay lip service to the more progressive factions of the party. He was in a position to do nothing for the progressive faction of the party (since he was a freshman senator), so no harm done. A few years down the line and you see what you are getting now.

 

Also, the blame isn't entirely upon him. There are 100 Senators and 435 US Reps that share in that blame too.

 

I voted for him too, was even inspired and hopeful. I honestly thought he had more integrity than this, and I consider myself a fairly astute, grey-haired political junkie. I think Gore Vidal is right; Hillary probably would've done a better job handling Wall St. and healthcare reform. I balked at the criticism leveled at Obama by Fox news and the people who watch it, and I still do, but I have my own criticisms. Read the explosive story of Obama's astonishing lack of cajones here -

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story...g_sellout/print

[Dreamingawake]

"Thanks for the peace prize! Here, 36 minutes of why I love war!"

 

Edit: What con you expect from a president who's entire cabinet is composed of lobbyists?

Edited December 11, 2009 by Dreamingawake

[lino]

Greetings..

 

War is seldom, if ever, about resources.. it's about ideologies. The 'ideology' may use resources to express their their beliefs, but.. the appropriate 'ideology' understands compassion and sharing.. "a rising tide lifts all boats"..

 

Politics has become a self-perpetuating contest of ideologies, where the interest of the electorate is barely a passing thought.. there are no 'statesmen' left. The healthcare reform, without the Public Option, is the largest windfall the insurance companies have ever had.. 40 million uninsured 'required' to purchase insurance from the same industry that has been inflating prices for the last 3 decades.. there is a disconnect when the democratic majority of congress and its democratic president can't even manifest its own fiscally sound programs.. without the public option to control the pricing, the insurance conglomerate will continue to profit from the nations weaknesses.. and yet, the democrats are so wishy/washy and fearful of 'bad press', they won't even act in the best interest of the people that trusted them to do so..

 

That being said, i do not favor the two-party system.. it has become a game of party survival to the detriment of the governed..

 

Yes, Taoists should speak their truth clearly and resolutely.. one for all and all for one.. hurt one/hurt all ~ help one/help all..

 

Be well..

 

War is always about resources.

Take these into consideration:

1. the invaded land's own resources.

2. acquisition and change of their money system.

3. the people itself.

4. the land itself.

 

Ideology is just a "cover" (Machavelli playbook), something that is used to justify the purposes of a bad action rather than pursue good actions and use Ideology to justify them.

 

Also keep in mind who gets paid and who foots the bill. Private contractors and the usual Military/Industrial Complex corps. (along with kickbacks and favors to elected officials) get paid whether services are rendered or if fraud is committed while the tax paying public is made to shoulder the burden (tax and debt) of somebody else's greed.

Edited December 11, 2009 by lino

[lino]

I voted for him too, was even inspired and hopeful. I honestly thought he had more integrity than this, and I consider myself a fairly astute, grey-haired political junkie. I think Gore Vidal is right; Hillary probably would've done a better job handling Wall St. and healthcare reform. I balked at the criticism leveled at Obama by Fox news and the people who watch it, and I still do, but I have my own criticisms. Read the explosive story of Obama's astonishing lack of cajones here -

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story...g_sellout/print

 

Brother,

All of this became foreseeable after Obama announced that Rahm Emanuel would become his chief of staff.

[Dreamingawake]

Actually I was saying this and 99% of everything else Obama has done would happen well before he was even "elected." I didn't see the Nobel coming though. I was actually kind of of surprised when I heard that.

[ralis]

It seems to me that we are part of a machine that keeps repeating the same conditions.

 

 

ralis

Edited December 12, 2009 by ralis

[lino]

It seems to me that we are part of a machine that keeps repeating the same conditions.

ralis

 

I grew up in the 80s and early 90s. The "same conditions" don't really apply because they

will be gradually worsening. Things will be getting more expensive and at the same time

wages and salaries are going to gradually decline. The economy always goes in feast/famine

cycles, except the "feast" cycles aren't quite as good when they are further investigated

since during the Clinton years, wages didn't really catch up to expenses.

 

The best way to counter this is try:

 

to live with the smallest footprint possible.

 

pick a profession which hasn't changed in years,

and requires you to learn very little on your own time,

and requires as little maintenance out of your own salary

as possible.

 

try to avoid bad habits (dietary...)

 

try to find low cost and safe hobbies

 

practice risk reduction and management

[soaring crane]

 

War is always about resources.

 

Ideology is just a "cover"

 

Maybe, but, if the opponents share an ideology, or, better, have none at all, then they'll share the resources as well. Or not?

[lino]

Maybe, but, if the opponents share an ideology, or, better, have none at all, then they'll share the resources as well. Or not?

 

"Share"?

 

Definitely not

 

Everything cost money

 

From their point of view, I'm not going to do business with somebody that has tried to do me harm (for decades), ideology or no ideology. I'm not going to trust that the other side's behavior has changed enough to do business with them without them trying to screw me.

Edited December 12, 2009 by lino

[de_paradise]

I see hope in the gaining strength of the movement towards low emissions and less waste, which seems to be taking place. The mindset is conducive to a higher level of being, lower selfishness, that, in my opinion, would eventually pervade other facets of living, such as human and global relations.

 

As far as Taoism or cultivators go, spreading calm and daily happiness, which so many people long for, is the carrot, not the stick, we can use. The KAP people, or Max, or whoever puts themselves out to spread awakening, the real stuff, are top in my book. If one day, strong cultivators can go viral, and infect by way of qi, larger portions of the population, then perhaps a quickening may occur for global changes in values. Of course its pretty vague on how or why that can occur. Not to be explained in your general sociology textbook. Nevertheless this is what I believe.

[manitou]

I actually see Mr. Obama as being an enlightened man. He is Doing Nothing on many situations (|I'm sure Mr. Limbaugh would agree, LOL) - but he is doing the Do Nothing we are familiar with here. I think we have many reasons to be optimistic.

This man is capable of seeing way in the distance. Please recall that the first visitors he had to the white house were the Pres. of S. Korea and also the emperor of Japan. Is there any doubt that they would be discussing North Korea and a 'what if' scenario? Sure enough, it played out just months later. And the result is that Kim Jung Il threw a tantrum and nobody got in a twitter when he sent the missiles off. No doubt S. Korea and Japan were in on the plan. Had Kim Jung Il transgressed some invisible border that had been pre-determined, he may have been obliterated. But the tantrum was handled, and Kim lost face.

I think one of the biggest reasons Mr. Obama got the peace prize is because of the ramifications of not placing defense shield missilry in Poland. It most likely went a long way in making peace with the Russians after the long cold war. That act alone changed the dynamics immeasurably.

We have an enlightened man in office. Most of the world won't see it - it takes 'eyes' to see eyes.

I see his movements in Afghanistan as being a necessary evil; perhaps the worst would be to immediately withdraw and leave a void. I think he's doing his best to get us out of there but with some modicum of grace, along with some sort of Afghani structure in place.

I think Mr. Obama is the type of leader that it speaks of in the Tao....the one that no one knows is there. I think he is not quick to take credit for the good things that he causes to happen, such as the two instances above. But it is my thought that the Nobel committee may have people with eyes to see. As high profile as the president now is, with the 24 hour news cycles, I think this fellow will do most of the good work behind closed doors and out of the public eye. I believe he is the right man for the times, an awakened, intelligent man who has the unfortunate job of riding this monster into the next phase, whatever that is. We will be better off for having had him.

[Ryan T.]

The best way to counter this is try:

 

to live with the smallest footprint possible.

 

pick a profession which hasn't changed in years,

and requires you to learn very little on your own time,

and requires as little maintenance out of your own salary

as possible.

 

try to avoid bad habits (dietary...)

 

try to find low cost and safe hobbies

 

practice risk reduction and management

 

I would also add:

 

Avoid useless engagement in political affairs. The Taoists of lore ALWAYS avoided any calling to the Royal Court. They understood the futility of such involvement. In fact they saw how it detracted from their practices. The same is true today.

[ralis]

I actually see Mr. Obama as being an enlightened man. He is Doing Nothing on many situations (|I'm sure Mr. Limbaugh would agree, LOL) - but he is doing the Do Nothing we are familiar with here. I think we have many reasons to be optimistic.

This man is capable of seeing way in the distance. Please recall that the first visitors he had to the white house were the Pres. of S. Korea and also the emperor of Japan. Is there any doubt that they would be discussing North Korea and a 'what if' scenario? Sure enough, it played out just months later. And the result is that Kim Jung Il threw a tantrum and nobody got in a twitter when he sent the missiles off. No doubt S. Korea and Japan were in on the plan. Had Kim Jung Il transgressed some invisible border that had been pre-determined, he may have been obliterated. But the tantrum was handled, and Kim lost face.

I think one of the biggest reasons Mr. Obama got the peace prize is because of the ramifications of not placing defense shield missilry in Poland. It most likely went a long way in making peace with the Russians after the long cold war. That act alone changed the dynamics immeasurably.

We have an enlightened man in office. Most of the world won't see it - it takes 'eyes' to see eyes.

I see his movements in Afghanistan as being a necessary evil; perhaps the worst would be to immediately withdraw and leave a void. I think he's doing his best to get us out of there but with some modicum of grace, along with some sort of Afghani structure in place.

I think Mr. Obama is the type of leader that it speaks of in the Tao....the one that no one knows is there. I think he is not quick to take credit for the good things that he causes to happen, such as the two instances above. But it is my thought that the Nobel committee may have people with eyes to see. As high profile as the president now is, with the 24 hour news cycles, I think this fellow will do most of the good work behind closed doors and out of the public eye. I believe he is the right man for the times, an awakened, intelligent man who has the unfortunate job of riding this monster into the next phase, whatever that is. We will be better off for having had him.

 

 

Enlightened? I disagree! If you read my first post, I noted the DOJ was filing an amicus brief in federal court to have lawsuits against John Yoo et al dismissed. This will accomplish two things. First, it will protect "executive privilege". Second, it will protect any lawyer or judge who rendered or will render legal opinions that justify war crimes. The very act of filing this brief, makes Obama complicit with war crimes.

 

If the amicus brief is ruled favorably by the courts, then U.S. law regarding war crimes will be severely undermined. U.S. and international law were created from the Nuremberg trials to prevent and punish war criminals for torture and unprovoked attacks against sovereign nations. In Dec. of 1947, the judges from the nazi "ministry of justice" were tried and found guilty for rendering legal opinions that justified war crimes.

 

 

If you recall that during the Bush years, Bush's lawyers claimed that "executive privilege" gave Bush the right to do almost anything. The theory of the "unitary executive" was what the Bush administration used to create more power than what is allowed in the U.S. Constitution. John Yoo et al in the DOJ used this theory to give advice to the Bush administration that permitted torture, unprovoked attacks against other countries and other heinous acts. Why? They believe the so called global war on terror, justified any previous illegal act.

 

 

 

 

What we are witnessing today is the destruction of the U.S. Constitution. The establishment of which gave power to separate bodies and not to one individual. We have no use for kings!

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37lR-sFJWW4

 

 

ralis

Edited December 12, 2009 by ralis

[Apech]

 

What we are witnessing today is the destruction of the U.S. Constitution. The establishment of which gave power to separate bodies and not to one individual. We have no use for kings!

 

ralis

 

 

Would you like to borrow our Queen - I don't think we have a lot of use for her?