War, politics and Nobel Peace Prize war speech.

[lino]

What we are witnessing today is the destruction of the U.S. Constitution. The establishment of which gave power to separate bodies and not to one individual. We have no use for kings!

 

 

Sorry dude

 

I cease to care.

 

The "constitution" was made for and by white landowners...and now it has morphed into something that is for and by people that are in possession (whether honest or ill-gotten) of a lot of money. You want an example? See how much money you would have to spend (or go into debt for) in order to protect yourself in a court.

 

...And it really isn't worth getting angry over either, it is counterproductive. Life handed a shit pile to the bottom 95% of the income bracket in the United States and the rest of the world in general.

[lino]

 

Sorry dude

 

I cease to care.

 

The "constitution" was made for and by white landowners...and now it has morphed into something that is for and by people that are in possession (whether honest or ill-gotten) of a lot of money. You want an example? See how much money you would have to spend (or go into debt for) in order to protect yourself in a court.

 

...And it really isn't worth getting angry over either, it is counterproductive. Life handed a shit pile to the bottom 95% of the income bracket in the United States and the rest of the world in general.

 

 

Dang

 

Guess my statement was F-ed up

Edited December 13, 2009 by lino

[Guest paul walter]

As far back as I can remember I have always felt that we all should be held accountable for our actions. I know that most world leaders like to exempt themselves for this criteria but that does not sway my opinion.

 

I think it is very Taoist that we be held responsible for our actions.

 

My respect for Obama, to this time, still has not deminished. We'll see what time does to my opinion.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

 

How much time do you need!! Or, are you waiting for his good looks to fade?

 

The U.S. is rapidly becoming a corporate fascist feudalistic state where the leadership behave as kings with divine rights as opposed to servants to the people.

 

ralis

 

 

What do you mean BECOMING!?!

[ddilulo_06]

.

Edited June 6, 2013 by ddilulo_06

[Adventure1]

Edited December 14, 2009 by Adventure1

[ralis]

[joeblast]

I am talking about justice in the legal system. Professor Turley has talked about this as well as Vincent Bugliosi in his book. Many people want Obama to bring charges against those who tortured and performed henious acts. What I mean by Taoist knowledge is if a chi field is coherent then there can be more peace in the world and the possibility of war can be lessened. I am not talking about fighting.

 

ralis

I'd rather he simply didnt drive business out of the country and stopped using the country's credit card to pay for Nancy's super laundry list. Its not up to a new administration to prosecute the old over technicalities, especially when its got a heap of things to do that will have real world impact - nevermind the symbolic gestures, he's already traveled all over the world to bash the USA to tell everyone dont worry I'll take us down a few pegs to make you all feel a little bit better about yourselves. Its stupid how many people still want to bash bush just because the tv said to not that I'm his biggest fan, but talking about those perceived (=relatively minor in the grand scheme of things) evils really only takes the spotlight off of the current lineup of subterfuge we have to deal with - which will impact the US as a country a thousand times more than a terrorist getting punched in the face and winding up with a bloody lip. Or god forbid he got a little water up his nose.

 

Its all nice and good to talk about getting more peace in the world, but historically peace has always had an easier time flourishing in times of economic prosperity, and we have a government that is devaluing the currency, trying to establish nanny state sized giveaway programs, declare our exhalations to be poisonous, tax businesses so hard that its making more and more sense to simply set up shop in another country...

 

People should be held accountable for their actions - but since so many people had problems with the last group in the executive branch overextending their sphere of influence, why do so many people overlook if not outright ignore the even further reaching transgressions of the current "coalition of powers?" We have a congress that enacts text into law without even reading it, which wouldnt be quite so bad if they were writing it, but they're not even doing that.

[ralis]

I'd rather he simply didnt drive business out of the country and stopped using the country's credit card to pay for Nancy's super laundry list. Its not up to a new administration to prosecute the old over technicalities, especially when its got a heap of things to do that will have real world impact - nevermind the symbolic gestures, he's already traveled all over the world to bash the USA to tell everyone dont worry I'll take us down a few pegs to make you all feel a little bit better about yourselves. Its stupid how many people still want to bash bush just because the tv said to not that I'm his biggest fan, but talking about those perceived (=relatively minor in the grand scheme of things) evils really only takes the spotlight off of the current lineup of subterfuge we have to deal with - which will impact the US as a country a thousand times more than a terrorist getting punched in the face and winding up with a bloody lip. Or god forbid he got a little water up his nose.

 

Its all nice and good to talk about getting more peace in the world, but historically peace has always had an easier time flourishing in times of economic prosperity, and we have a government that is devaluing the currency, trying to establish nanny state sized giveaway programs, declare our exhalations to be poisonous, tax businesses so hard that its making more and more sense to simply set up shop in another country...

 

People should be held accountable for their actions - but since so many people had problems with the last group in the executive branch overextending their sphere of influence, why do so many people overlook if not outright ignore the even further reaching transgressions of the current "coalition of powers?" We have a congress that enacts text into law without even reading it, which wouldnt be quite so bad if they were writing it, but they're not even doing that.

 

 

I think you should catch up on U.S. and international law. Start by understanding what war crimes are and how the laws against war crimes were instituted. The Nuremberg tribunals would be an excellent place to really understand why! See the link in my first post where professor Turley discusses John Yoo. Professor Turley has discussed many times the war crimes from the past administration and why Obama needs to follow through.

 

If you read the transcripts from Nuremberg, you will know why the Nazis were prosecuted. Also during the war trials in Tokyo, Japanese officers were either shot or sentenced to hard labor (20yrs.) for torture and water boarding.

 

1M dead in Iraq most of whom are women and children is not a technicality!

 

 

ralis

[joeblast]

 

obama has a great many more important things to be doing. f'n hollywood

Edited December 14, 2009 by joeblast

[Dreamingawake]

I'd rather he simply didnt drive business out of the country and stopped using the country's credit card to pay for Nancy's super laundry list. Its not up to a new administration to prosecute the old over technicalities, especially when its got a heap of things to do that will have real world impact - nevermind the symbolic gestures, he's already traveled all over the world to bash the USA to tell everyone dont worry I'll take us down a few pegs to make you all feel a little bit better about yourselves. Its stupid how many people still want to bash bush just because the tv said to not that I'm his biggest fan, but talking about those perceived (=relatively minor in the grand scheme of things) evils really only takes the spotlight off of the current lineup of subterfuge we have to deal with - which will impact the US as a country a thousand times more than a terrorist getting punched in the face and winding up with a bloody lip. Or god forbid he got a little water up his nose.

 

Its all nice and good to talk about getting more peace in the world, but historically peace has always had an easier time flourishing in times of economic prosperity, and we have a government that is devaluing the currency, trying to establish nanny state sized giveaway programs, declare our exhalations to be poisonous, tax businesses so hard that its making more and more sense to simply set up shop in another country...

 

People should be held accountable for their actions - but since so many people had problems with the last group in the executive branch overextending their sphere of influence, why do so many people overlook if not outright ignore the even further reaching transgressions of the current "coalition of powers?" We have a congress that enacts text into law without even reading it, which wouldnt be quite so bad if they were writing it, but they're not even doing that.

 

You think rape, murder and torture are 'relatively minor?' Where are you from bro? Were you raised as a 'child soldier' in South Africa or something? The pictures and videos the were leaked during the abu scandal showed much more than the little that was released in the states, including the rape of prisoners. The now famous 'whitehouse memos' authorized the torture of children in front of their parents... in some cases sexually... That's minor? WTF bro? Waterboarding is a lot more than just 'a little water up their nose.'

 

There are many huge issues which need to be addressed in the current administration, but thats no reason to let previous monsters off the hook. Can you imagine a rapist using that as a defense at his trial? "Yeah I raped and killed a ten year old girl, but so what? There's no need to punish me. There are other rapists out there hurting people right now so you should just let me go and try to catch them instead!"

 

Edit: grammar/typos

Edited December 14, 2009 by Dreamingawake

[Adventure1]

You think rape, murder and torture are 'relatively minor?' Where are you from bro? Were you raised as a 'child soldier' in South Africa or something? The pictures and videos the were leaked during the abu scandal showed much more than the little that was released in the states, including the rape of prisoners. The now famous 'whitehouse memos' authorized the torture of children in front of their parents... in some cases sexually... That's minor? WTF bro? Waterboarding is a lot more than just 'a little water up their nose.'

 

There are many huge issues which need to be addressed in the current administration, but thats no reason to let previous monsters off the hook. Can you imagine a rapist using that as a defense at his trial? "Yeah I raped and killed a ten year old girl, but so what? There's no need to punish me. There are other rapists out there hurting people right now so you should just let me go and try to catch them instead!"

 

Edit: grammar/typos

 

I can understand how someone would consider water boarding as a lesser form of information gathering. Sadly as with all things nowadays there is a science behind it, the braking of the critical mind is the real objective. Waterboarding is the induction to insure that future interrogations go smoothly.

For high profile cases, psychic induction is also used. You can be sure of this - those men that get water boarding done by professional interrogator get no rest bite.

And to be honist all this would be fine (water boarding wise) if I believed that these supposed 'terrorists' had anything life saving to offer.

Personally I just cant see how big government can help anyone but them selves.

[ralis]

I can understand how someone would consider water boarding as a lesser form of information gathering. Sadly as with all things nowadays there is a science behind it, the braking of the critical mind is the real objective. Waterboarding is the induction to insure that future interrogations go smoothly.

For high profile cases, psychic induction is also used. You can be sure of this - those men that get water boarding done by professional interrogator get no rest bite.

And to be honist all this would be fine (water boarding wise) if I believed that these supposed 'terrorists' had anything life saving to offer.

Personally I just cant see how big government can help anyone but them selves.

 

I guess you believe water boarding and torture are fine? It is a known fact that torture does not obtain useful intelligence! Obviously, you know nothing about U.S. and international law, or even have a knowledge of history.

 

Do you know how intelligence was obtained in WWII by U.S. interrogators from Nazi officers? They played chess with them and created friendships. Then they were able to obtain whatever intelligence was needed.

 

Do you know what was contained in the memos that John Yoo wrote as to what is torture or not? He advised Bush that it is permitted to crush the testicles of a terror suspects child, while that suspect looked on.

 

ralis

Edited December 15, 2009 by ralis

[joeblast]

You think rape, murder and torture are 'relatively minor?' Where are you from bro? Were you raised as a 'child soldier' in South Africa or something? The pictures and videos the were leaked during the abu scandal showed much more than the little that was released in the states, including the rape of prisoners. The now famous 'whitehouse memos' authorized the torture of children in front of their parents... in some cases sexually... That's minor? WTF bro? Waterboarding is a lot more than just 'a little water up their nose.'

 

There are many huge issues which need to be addressed in the current administration, but thats no reason to let previous monsters off the hook. Can you imagine a rapist using that as a defense at his trial? "Yeah I raped and killed a ten year old girl, but so what? There's no need to punish me. There are other rapists out there hurting people right now so you should just let me go and try to catch them instead!"

 

Edit: grammar/typos

c'mon, dude...parallax, yous gots it. rape, murder, torture, explicity condoned and authorized? the torture one has a measure of interpretation to it, but I'm being pragmatic here. I havent seen those 'famous memos' you referenced (link?) at least not anything to the scale of what you're saying - rape this child in front of his parents...wtf? I saw memos that made a justification for something like waterboarding (ya know, the one queen pelosi approved before she was so aghast that the practice was happening?) you cant use abu ghraib as a quasi justification to prosecute members of the bush admin, a bunch of soldiers did that out of their own stupidity, they werent friggin ordered to. since when is it okay to blur those lines? or is it just the 'common enemy' thing?

[ralis]

c'mon, dude...parallax, yous gots it. rape, murder, torture, explicity condoned and authorized? the torture one has a measure of interpretation to it, but I'm being pragmatic here. I havent seen those 'famous memos' you referenced (link?) at least not anything to the scale of what you're saying - rape this child in front of his parents...wtf? I saw memos that made a justification for something like waterboarding (ya know, the one queen pelosi approved before she was so aghast that the practice was happening?) you cant use abu ghraib as a quasi justification to prosecute members of the bush admin, a bunch of soldiers did that out of their own stupidity, they werent friggin ordered to. since when is it okay to blur those lines? or is it just the 'common enemy' thing?

 

Are you a right wing "Neo Con"? Here are the torture memo links.

 

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/secr...se-aclu-lawsuit

[joeblast]

lol...so did you ever read the 81 pages, or did you read the alcu lawyer's bitching that made no references to what was actually in the memo? there was at least a link to the memo in there. its funny how 'progressives' see things as you're either on their side or you're on the other side - so automatically I'm on the other side for having a more pragmatic view of the situation

 

why isnt this thread in off topic where it belongs?

[ralis]

lol...so did you ever read the 81 pages, or did you read the alcu lawyer's bitching that made no references to what was actually in the memo? there was at least a link to the memo in there. its funny how 'progressives' see things as you're either on their side or you're on the other side - so automatically I'm on the other side for having a more pragmatic view of the situation

 

why isnt this thread in off topic where it belongs?

 

I don't care if you are being pragmatic! Your point is moot! The point is, the U.S. and international conventions against torture and war crimes forbid torture and unprovoked attacks against sovereign countries. Read the Nuremberg tribunals. No memo Pres. or lawyer can overturn these laws.

 

If you go back and read, you will find that water boarding is torture!

 

 

ralis

[joeblast]

my point is moot? thank you for pontificating that determination to me. I can understand when one asserts himself to be of higher moral fiber and thus feels beholden to castigate those perceived to be of lesser moral fiber - but when these black & white lines are viewed straight on, all you're left with in this instance is the feeling of being burned, that there is an injustice left unpunished. whether actions performed were morally questionable does not necessarily speak to whether it was legally defensible or not when broken down to the letter - and a fuzzy letter, given overlapping legalities. go look up the laws of war and belligerent actors.

 

you're pissed that yoo was given a task of 'finding cracks in the legalese,' thus the 81 page detailed and historied memo. or, 'find out to what lengths we can possibly go to that can be considered legal.' thus continues the labeling game, because a significant part of it is just an information war. kinda like your reference to the geneva convention - its a treaty to which we are signatories - and ICC, as international law - but it does not supersede US law. for having razzed me for not knowing about the memo (it was that long ago,) here's a serving back for not having read it the US also hasnt ratified that international criminal court.

 

regardless of any of this, do you have any idea the amount of resources and hundreds of millions if not more it would take to bring such things to trial? (although obama would likely love all the extra government jobs created, those seem to be the only ones he knows how to generate...) like we can afford that on top of everything else being foisted upon us? its a fine line at any rate - and judging by how you're talking you dont know how fine that line really is - its one that would be exorbitantly expensive to even attempt to cross, with no guarantee of crossing. its a waste of time, money, resources. at a time when resources are tight and government programs are being created like its the new deal again, we simply dont need the sideshow.