Anti Aging - The China Study

[Andrei]

I'm a 37 y.o. going to 38 soon and I am a convinced 5 elements (taoist) nutrition adept but I kind'a noticed some aging signs like wrinkles, white hair from several years ago, dryness of the skin...etc. Normally I don' show my age, I mean there were girls who were guessing I was 28 or 30, but still I am beginning to show signs of ageing and I will reach 40 soon, so I was wondering if I should consider the vegan diet as advertised here:

 

mF2rH9GCZfo

 

lNNgF7T23uI

 

 

As I have seen so far, the vegan diet involves plenty of sunbaths and physical exercise and I saw being advertised by people who live in sunny places like Florida or California. They stay half-naked almost all day long in the sun... I envy them, I wish I could live in a climate like that. Not to mention the tropical climate of India or Indochina where I suppose it originated.

There are people that even go further from vegan diet to waterian or breathrian diets like this guy, although I am not interested yet in this kind of life, maybe later when I will reach 50 or 60, I'll see:

 

Z_Bf6g8R6lQ

 

It seems that a scientific study done on the poor villages of China come to the same conclusion that they were vegans, and as we know a very important component of the vegan diet is Soy (beans, tofu, milk, yogurt, etc.)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

 

So, here comes my questions to the taobums that are vegans:

 

How do you deal with the balance testosteron/estrogen levels either you are man or woman, I mean what is the influence on your sex life from the soy fito-estrogens? I mean your actual life, not what they say in the articles and scientific studies...

 

I know Dr. Lin advocates a diet plenty of soy which he claim is good for the men's sex health, and I know Witch disagrees with him, and I respect her opinion too, so I'm expecting a discussion of pros and cons with numbers and scientific articles and results, not discussions like "he's not even a doctor" because I know what kind of doctor he is (the same doctor I will be soon i.e. an engineer doctor)

 

My second question is (this is a very tough question and I don't have great expectations).... how can I do a vegan or vegetarian diet in a climate where I currently live like this? :

 

2jb0Bu7kAYg

 

Yesterday I just shoveled the snow arround my car, so I am not complaining of physical exercise and this is just the begining of the winter here

 

Xq2oQdusWuw

Edited December 12, 2009 by steam

[agharta]

Veganism is fine for a few months, maybe even a couple of years. However, your brain needs certain tings like Vitamin B-12 and certain fatty acids that are not found much in plant foods. It's much safer to eat at least some high-quality animal products like fish eggs, fresh fatty ocean fish, grass-fed beef/venison/lamb, and other animal foods, preferably raw. You'll generally do better eating raw or only lightly cooked. I am a moderator at the Raw Paleo Forum, my name is cherimoya_kid. You can learn a lot over there. Feel free to read there.

[immortal_sister]

i could go on, and on and on about veganism i will try to keep it short, i promise..

 

i was completely vegan for 7+ years. i ate pretty well for a vegan, mostly organic, very varied diet, lots of soy though. felt amazing the first 2 years, felt ok for another year or two, then there was a definite slow decline in certain aspects of my health and it took me several years to really understand how much it was linked to my diet. in my case, some of these things that i now directly link to my veganism are problems with my reproductive cycles (nothing major was wrong, just imbalanced hormones, probably very much exhacerbated by taking birth control while being vegan), low endurance, low sex drive, overall feeling like i had low energy. definite kidney deficiency, and underactive/taxed adrenals.

 

i think unknowingly this is why a lot of people join the vegan bandwagon for a few years and then totally drop off and give up on caring about their diets at all, assuming that if the vegan diet didn't work, they didn't feel good, then why should they care at all? a lot of people idealize the concept of veganism, but i firmly believe now that veganism is simply not optimal for most humans on this planet.

 

personally, i have now included wild meat and wild fish to my diet, not regularly, sometimes once a week, sometimes only once a month. i listen to my body about when i need animal proteins and fats. i eat raw, organic cheese several times a week and organic butter or ghee. i recently started cod liver oil supplements as well. i have felt a huge difference from these good sources of fats and proteins, most vegans don't get good fat at all in their diets and this is a big problem that is often overlooked. most vegans are also imbalanced enough that no matter how many supplements they take their body/digestion is not able to fully process all these vitamins and minerals. a good example is vitamin D, which one can get usually readily get from the sun and animal fats. but in northern climates it is harder to get, especially in winter. you can take vegan vitamin D supplements, or assume that you are getting enough from vegetables, but the reality is that most likely your body is not actually transforming and absorbing those vitamins properly. i don't have time to look up and link articles or studies. i think there is good information on this website http://www.beyondveg.com although i don't agree with everything that they have to say.

 

i live in the north too (are you from montreal steam?), and i do not believe that anyone living in this climate should be vegan, at least not year round. i try to follow a diet that is in balance with my climate and my environment, that flows with the changing needs of my body according to the seasons, which are so very different from one another. i also strive to have a diet that is as wild as possible, where i rely on refined foods as little as possible. i think local wild food (be it wild plants and roots, or wild game, wild fish) is the best food one can eat.

 

the only other thing i want to add is about soy. i did not read the whole thing about the china study. however, my understanding is that most asians who eat a lot of soy usually combine it in meals with meat, which automatically makes it more balanced. they also eat high amounts of soy from a very early age, and come from parents who ate fairly high soy diets, so their genes are naturally a bit more adapted. here most of us who are 25+ did not grow up on diets high in soy, this is a fairly new development in the west, so our bodies are not as adapted. i know that for me, i went from never having barely eaten any soy, to drinking gallons of soy milk and eating tofu almost every day. the vegan diet is cleansing as it is, and cooling, all the soy makes it even more so. most importantly though, asians usually eat fermented soy, which is a completely different story than eating fake sausage and drinking soy milk. fermented soy, such as tempeh and miso, is far more balanced, it is not as cooling and yin, and has a lesser effect on the body from its phytoestrogens.

Edited December 12, 2009 by immortal_sister

[DaoChild]

I think you're making this a little more complicated than it needs to be.

 

The BEST way to maintain health into old age is exercise daily. Moderate exercise that gets your blood going will by FAR promote wellness and graceful aging well into your 80s. Make sure you are a healthy body weight.

 

Diet is important, but your physical exercise should be king, since it technically can negate your diet even if it's garbage.

 

Physical exercise = increased circulation = maintenance of organs, hearing, eyesight, etc.

 

A diet high in vegetables with a little protein (mostly fish) and plenty of fruits will help graceful aging. Don't make it complicated, remember that simplicity is the heart of Taoism.

[Aetherous]

DaoChild is right!

[NeiChuan]

I figure if you dont over eat meat,eat vegetables and fish, then do the rest with meditation/qi work.

 

Keep it simple I guess.

[Non]

I think it's totally possible to be a healthy vegan. It might take some work but it can be done. What with all this technology on food. Tofu doesn't have to be made from soy (http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf0013398 , http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...&SRETRY=0P), gluten free mock seitan, b12 can be found in nutrient rich soil, can be converted from another form enzymatically, or found fermented food. Vitamin D3 can be found in fungus, DHA from algae, and yes can be converted enzymatically. Creatine, can also be synthesized.. I also read some other berries can contain creatine.

 

Goji berries for testosterone.

'

on and on...

 

Yea it might can some agricultural and tecnological expertise but it can be done.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Non

[Andrei]

Thank you gals and guys, I will study the links and I will stay for now the way I am already doing taoist balanced diet + regular exercise, maybe if I will ever relocate into a warmer sunnier climate I will try to reduce animal products intake...

 

Yes Immortal_sister, I am living in Montreal and I do the same as you, change the diet according to seasons and climate.

[Gerard]

Clean air, good food (variety following TCM principles), pure water, good Qi, daily IMA practice, good heart and good mind.

[Biff]

i could go on, and on and on about veganism i will try to keep it short, i promise..

 

i was completely vegan for 7+ years. i ate pretty well for a vegan, mostly organic, very varied diet, lots of soy though. felt amazing the first 2 years, felt ok for another year or two, then there was a definite slow decline in certain aspects of my health and it took me several years to really understand how much it was linked to my diet. in my case, some of these things that i now directly link to my veganism are problems with my reproductive cycles (nothing major was wrong, just imbalanced hormones, probably very much exhacerbated by taking birth control while being vegan), low endurance, low sex drive, overall feeling like i had low energy. definite kidney deficiency, and underactive/taxed adrenals.

 

i think unknowingly this is why a lot of people join the vegan bandwagon for a few years and then totally drop off and give up on caring about their diets at all, assuming that if the vegan diet didn't work, they didn't feel good, then why should they care at all? a lot of people idealize the concept of veganism, but i firmly believe now that veganism is simply not optimal for most humans on this planet.

 

personally, i have now included wild meat and wild fish to my diet, not regularly, sometimes once a week, sometimes only once a month. i listen to my body about when i need animal proteins and fats. i eat raw, organic cheese several times a week and organic butter or ghee. i recently started cod liver oil supplements as well. i have felt a huge difference from these good sources of fats and proteins, most vegans don't get good fat at all in their diets and this is a big problem that is often overlooked. most vegans are also imbalanced enough that no matter how many supplements they take their body/digestion is not able to fully process all these vitamins and minerals. a good example is vitamin D, which one can get usually readily get from the sun and animal fats. but in northern climates it is harder to get, especially in winter. you can take vegan vitamin D supplements, or assume that you are getting enough from vegetables, but the reality is that most likely your body is not actually transforming and absorbing those vitamins properly. i don't have time to look up and link articles or studies. i think there is good information on this website http://www.beyondveg.com although i don't agree with everything that they have to say.

 

i live in the north too (are you from montreal steam?), and i do not believe that anyone living in this climate should be vegan, at least not year round. i try to follow a diet that is in balance with my climate and my environment, that flows with the changing needs of my body according to the seasons, which are so very different from one another. i also strive to have a diet that is as wild as possible, where i rely on refined foods as little as possible. i think local wild food (be it wild plants and roots, or wild game, wild fish) is the best food one can eat.

 

the only other thing i want to add is about soy. i did not read the whole thing about the china study. however, my understanding is that most asians who eat a lot of soy usually combine it in meals with meat, which automatically makes it more balanced. they also eat high amounts of soy from a very early age, and come from parents who ate fairly high soy diets, so their genes are naturally a bit more adapted. here most of us who are 25+ did not grow up on diets high in soy, this is a fairly new development in the west, so our bodies are not as adapted. i know that for me, i went from never having barely eaten any soy, to drinking gallons of soy milk and eating tofu almost every day. the vegan diet is cleansing as it is, and cooling, all the soy makes it even more so. most importantly though, asians usually eat fermented soy, which is a completely different story than eating fake sausage and drinking soy milk. fermented soy, such as tempeh and miso, is far more balanced, it is not as cooling and yin, and has a lesser effect on the body from its phytoestrogens.

 

Now that is a lovely post.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/11/08/child.starved/index.html

 

 

 

 

 

I think you're making this a little more complicated than it needs to be.

 

The BEST way to maintain health into old age is exercise daily. Moderate exercise that gets your blood going will by FAR promote wellness and graceful aging well into your 80s. Make sure you are a healthy body weight.

 

Diet is important, but your physical exercise should be king, since it technically can negate your diet even if it's garbage.

 

Physical exercise = increased circulation = maintenance of organs, hearing, eyesight, etc.

 

A diet high in vegetables with a little protein (mostly fish) and plenty of fruits will help graceful aging. Don't make it complicated, remember that simplicity is the heart of Taoism.

 

Could not agree more.

[bindo]

I think you're making this a little more complicated than it needs to be.

 

The BEST way to maintain health into old age is exercise daily. Moderate exercise that gets your blood going will by FAR promote wellness and graceful aging well into your 80s. Make sure you are a healthy body weight.

 

Diet is important, but your physical exercise should be king, since it technically can negate your diet even if it's garbage.

 

Physical exercise = increased circulation = maintenance of organs, hearing, eyesight, etc.

 

A diet high in vegetables with a little protein (mostly fish) and plenty of fruits will help graceful aging. Don't make it complicated, remember that simplicity is the heart of Taoism.

I agree with this too. Excellent post DaoChild.

[soaring crane]

I kind'a noticed some aging signs like wrinkles, white hair from several years ago, dryness of the skin...etc.

 

Hi Steam,

 

you already got fantastic replies, go with them.

 

I just want to add that, specifically to the problem of dry skin and wrinkles, you may get some very quick results by simply reducing carbohydrates drastically and increasing the content of healthy fats in your daily menus. The first things to cut are all forms of sugar, wheat and corn. The best and easiest thing add is extra-virgin olive oil.

 

The other thing to cut would be dairy, but if you're going to go vegan that's a given anyway.

 

The reason so many vegans give up could be because they end up eating tons of pasta and relying on carbs for all their energy. And they do that because it's convenient, unfortunately.

 

Unhealthy vegetarians tend to load up on dairy till they moo, for the same reason. Teenagers do this all the time.

 

A good jumping off point would be Phil Maffetone's books, though there are others who say essentially the same thing. Look up Scott Jurek, he's a pretty interesting man. Stu Mittelman's book, Slow Burn has good diet info.

 

I'll add that I'm not especially good at actually applying the principles to my own practice, but I've had enough success to feel confident in making the suggestions. I also failed miserably in my attempts with the five-element kitchen. Too much thinking for me, lol. Maybe in the future...

 

My own attitude toward food is similar to how I view tanking up my car. It's a necessity and I make sure to buy high-quality gasoline, but after a quick fill-up, I'm of driving again.

[enouch]

I'm a 37 y.o. going to 38 soon and I am a convinced 5 elements (taoist) nutrition adept but I kind'a noticed some aging signs like wrinkles, white hair from several years ago, dryness of the skin...etc. Normally I don' show my age, I mean there were girls who were guessing I was 28 or 30, but still I am beginning to show signs of ageing and I will reach 40 soon, so I was wondering if I should consider the vegan diet as advertised here:

 

mF2rH9GCZfo

 

lNNgF7T23uI

As I have seen so far, the vegan diet involves plenty of sunbaths and physical exercise and I saw being advertised by people who live in sunny places like Florida or California. They stay half-naked almost all day long in the sun... I envy them, I wish I could live in a climate like that. Not to mention the tropical climate of India or Indochina where I suppose it originated.

There are people that even go further from vegan diet to waterian or breathrian diets like this guy, although I am not interested yet in this kind of life, maybe later when I will reach 50 or 60, I'll see:

 

Z_Bf6g8R6lQ

 

It seems that a scientific study done on the poor villages of China come to the same conclusion that they were vegans, and as we know a very important component of the vegan diet is Soy (beans, tofu, milk, yogurt, etc.)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study

 

So, here comes my questions to the taobums that are vegans:

 

How do you deal with the balance testosteron/estrogen levels either you are man or woman, I mean what is the influence on your sex life from the soy fito-estrogens? I mean your actual life, not what they say in the articles and scientific studies...

 

I know Dr. Lin advocates a diet plenty of soy which he claim is good for the men's sex health, and I know Witch disagrees with him, and I respect her opinion too, so I'm expecting a discussion of pros and cons with numbers and scientific articles and results, not discussions like "he's not even a doctor" because I know what kind of doctor he is (the same doctor I will be soon i.e. an engineer doctor)

 

My second question is (this is a very tough question and I don't have great expectations).... how can I do a vegan or vegetarian diet in a climate where I currently live like this? :

 

2jb0Bu7kAYg

 

Yesterday I just shoveled the snow arround my car, so I am not complaining of physical exercise and this is just the begining of the winter here

 

Xq2oQdusWuw

 

 

 

 

As a avid weight lifter I take in soy and whey protein.To look many years younger develop a dynamic physique and you'll have too chase the opposite sex away! It is biology written in their genes and most lack the internal discipline to resist.2.Hyuronic acid is great for the skin I've attached a primetime live session on it.3.Have you tried large ammounts of rna? I've attached certain articles.4.The five tibetan rites.5.Chunny the founder of spring forest qi gung recomends massaging the backof the hands[wrists to?] for the elimination of age spots.6.Enter into deep trances and instruct your subconcious mind how you want too look and evolve.7.White[lights] leds are well known for reducing wrinkles,also infar-red lasers[at target] and blue leds eliminate acne.8.Take 1 or 2 grams of l-arginine on a empty stomach to spur the release of hgh-it adds to skin thickness and reduction of bodyfat.Take it before lifting weights as well,lifting heavy weights for 45-60 minutes creates hgh release.9.Try magnets...on the left[little pinky finger] hand directed to magnetic south and on the right to magnetic north.10.Almost forgot ethocyn....hit the link.11.Face yoga!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vqDLbHeVl0

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.nut...05f1bf41e55a6cb

http://www.vrp.com/articles.aspx?ProdID=1166

http://www.xtrememind.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3312

http://www.xtrememind.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3362

http://www.xtrememind.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3186

Edited December 12, 2009 by enouch

[enouch]

As a avid weight lifter I take in soy and whey protein.To look many years younger develop a dynamic physique and you'll have too chase the opposite sex away! It is biology written in their genes and most lack the internal discipline to resist.2.Hyuronic acid is great for the skin I've attached a primetime live session on it.3.Have you tried large ammounts of rna? I've attached certain articles.4.The five tibetan rites.5.Chunny the founder of spring forest qi gung recomends massaging the backof the hands[wrists to?] for the elimination of age spots.6.Enter into deep trances and instruct your subconcious mind how you want too look and evolve.7.White[lights] leds are well known for reducing wrinkles,also infar-red lasers[at target] and blue leds eliminate acne.8.Take 1 or 2 grams of l-arginine on a empty stomach to spur the release of hgh-it adds to skin thickness and reduction of bodyfat.Take it before lifting weights as well,lifting heavy weights for 45-60 minutes creates hgh release.9.Try magnets...on the left hand directed to magnetic south and on the right to magnetic north.10.Almost forgot ethocyn....hit the link.11.Face yoga!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vqDLbHeVl0

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.nut...05f1bf41e55a6cb

http://www.vrp.com/articles.aspx?ProdID=1166

http://www.xtrememind.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3312

http://www.xtrememind.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3362

http://www.xtrememind.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=3186

 

 

 

 

Also blood purification and magnetic pulser by Dr.Bob Beck. 2. Shedding or brushing the skin-a yogic technique.3. Replenishing internal enegies-energy of the organs.

Edited December 12, 2009 by enouch

[Non]

so rather than belieuve sciene, you believe the vegan diet is impossible based on some magical mystical ingredient that would be missing in their diets?

 

There are only bad vegan diets, not all vegan diets are bad. Its people who do the bad ones that make us look bad. Besides that your testosterone doesn't go down as long as you don't eat too much soy and it's way possible to be a soy free gluten free vegan.

 

That whole thing about people thinking that "it's not a REAL MAN'S diet" they have security issues or they just believe the hype. http://ezinearticles.com/?Vegan-Men-Are-Se...&id=2892909

 

And there are plenty of plant foods that are considered yang and nourish the kidneys. I would think if youre attracting less women on the non soy vegan diet it has to do with women subconsciously notcing that something is different yet they dont even know what it is, and they would rather prefer someone who is more similar ie meat eater than be with someone who is different and to whom their bodies think there is "something missing" about them when it's really nothing more than a misunderstanding and primitive unevolved way of thinking. Like the deer in the headlights kind of primitive thinking.

Edited December 12, 2009 by Non

[agharta]

so rather than belieuve sciene, you believe the vegan diet is impossible based on some magial mystial ingredient that would be missing in their diets?

 

There are only bad vegan diets, not all vegan diets are bad. Its people who do the bad ones that make us look bad. Besides that your testosterone doesn't go down as long as you don't eat too much soy and it's way possible to be a soy free gluten free vegan.

 

That whole thing about people thinking that "it's not a REAL MAN'S diet" they have security issues or they just believe the hype. http://ezinearticles.com/?Vegan-Men-Are-Se...&id=2892909

 

 

Being vegan made me pretty sick. I'm not saying it absolutely can't be done healthily, but that's like saying that I'm not sure that I can't walk into an active volcano safely. Maybe I COULD walk into the volcano and survive, by spending 50 years developing certain esoteric powers, but so what? You're much safer including some high-quality raw or lightly-cooked animal products. Again, let me direct you to the Raw Paleo Forum, where I moderate. Please don't post in support of veganism there, I ban posters who post in support of veganism within a few posts. Feel free to read, though, and post if you can avoid supporting veganism in your posts.

[walkerinthewoods]

I ate a vegetarian diet for a few years and vegan for several months. At the time I thought I was doing great. It was not until looking back that I realized a vegan diet was not right for me. I personally feel that vegetarian and even vegan diets have their place.

 

A balanced vegetarian diet that includes high quality animal products is probably fine for a long term diet. But I do not think that a vegan diet is all that healthy for the long term. It is great for the short term, especially for cleansing. To even do it "right" requires a lot of research which most people who try such a diet do not do. But even then it may not be very practical for a lot of people.

 

Something that is very rarely talked about with a vegan diet but I think is very important is fat. The general idea, atleast in the US, is that all fat is bad for you. This is just not true. We all need the right kinds of fat. This is especially true for anyone on a vegan diet. A vegan diet is generally very low fat. A person on a vegan diet really needs to make sure they are getting a lot (in terms of a vegan diet) of the right kinds of fat. And yes we all need some saturated fat.

 

The other thing is soy. I agree with Immortal_sister on this. Soy has traditionally been consumed only after having been fermented, such as soy sauce and tempeh. Even then it was not eaten in large quantities. The thing is even if you are not vegan but eating a lot of processed foods then you are eating a lot of soy. But this soy is not fermented, as fermentation takes time and time is not something that goes well with "modern" industry.

 

Personally what I think is the healthiest diet is eating one that is more traditional, one that is like what our ancestors ate. This includes avoiding processed foods, especially things like white sugar and white flour, eating raw foods and eating fermented foods. This can be done as both a vegetarian and an omnivore and probably to some degree as a vegan, though vegan is certainly not traditional. I have felt and looked my best when sticking to this diet. Two good reads on this are Nurishing Traditions found here: http://www.amazon.com/Nourishing-Tradition...3788&sr=8-1 and Nutrition and Physical Degeneration which is free to read online here: http://www.journeytoforever.org/farm_libra...e/pricetoc.html

 

Ultimately you need to listen to your body and do what feels right for you.

Edited December 12, 2009 by walkerinthewoods

[Guest paul walter]

I ate a vegetarian diet for a few years and vegan for several months. At the time I thought I was doing great. It was not until looking back that I realized a vegan diet was not right for me. I personally feel that vegetarian and even vegan diets have their place.

 

 

 

 

Just a thought--when people say they were on this or that diet it is meaningless unless you give a rough idea of what you were actually eating. A "vegan diet" that the 'average' vegan eats has almost no relation to my vegan diet for example, just as a food/nutrition savvy meat eater or vego's diet is going to have no relation to a fast food/supermarket eaters diet. I like to hear peoples' ideas about diet from all camps but like all other opinions they mostly seem to be just that, with no real information on which to base their judgements about this or that diet not doing this or that for them etc....thanks

[immortal_sister]

paul, if you read my response i tried to be more descriptive in explaining what my diet was like as a vegan. i ate much better than most vegans i knew, ate very little processed foods, mostly organic, whole foods, etc. it wasn't perfect, for sure. but better than most vegans i knew.

 

at this point, with the many years i was vegan and experimented with variations, it is more than just an unfounded opinion, i have experienced the ups and downs of the vegan diet and can speak about it with knowledge. my opinions are based on direct experience only, not on ethical or environmental issues. that's a whole other thread. when speaking about veganism as it relates to health and nutrition only, i firmly believe now that it is not an appropriate diet for almost anyone to have on a permanent basis, especially for those who never eat wild foods, and especially for those who live in places where there are winters.

 

paul, how long have you been vegan? how old are you? and what climate do you live in?

Edited December 13, 2009 by immortal_sister

[Non]

paul, if you read my response i tried to be more descriptive in explaining what my diet was like as a vegan. i ate much better than most vegans i knew, ate very little processed foods, mostly organic, whole foods, etc. it wasn't perfect, for sure. but better than most vegans i knew.

 

at this point, with the many years i was vegan and experimented with variations, it is more than just an unfounded opinion, i have experienced the ups and downs of the vegan diet and can speak about it with knowledge. my opinions are based on direct experience only, not on ethical or environmental issues. that's a whole other thread. when speaking about veganism as it relates to health and nutrition only, i firmly believe now that it is not an appropriate diet for almost anyone to have on a permanent basis, especially for those who never eat wild foods, and especially for those who live in places where there are winters.

 

paul, how long have you been vegan? how old are you? and what climate do you live in?

 

So your basically saying that the environment is just not vegan friendly ie scarcity of wild foods, as you say, and climate. I agree... but think about if we could make the environment vegan friendly so that we are able to get all the nutrients we need, all the elements in balance, without having to kill another species. did you think of the technology we have now? We are evolving everyday, heck maybe one day we wont even need to eat. For now I have to though and if I can get all the nutrients I need from a vegan diet, plus all the "elements" of the food in balance, then why do I have to kill another animal?

 

Its not impossible.. like I said we have hands we have feet, we have technology. Maybe if we had a large enough focus in society we can make it a "vegan" friendly world. It is ideal... right now. Doesn't have to be 'plants' what if we could with technology invent something that would give us the ability to produce our own nutrients without having to harm the ecosystem in a natural way.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Non

[immortal_sister]

So your basically saying that the environment is just not vegan friendly ie scarcity of wild foods, as you say, and climate. I agree... but think about if we could make the environment vegan friendly so that we are able to get all the nutrients we need, all the elements in balance, without having to kill another species. did you think of the technology we have now? We are evolving everyday, heck maybe one day we wont even need to eat. For now I have to though and if I can get all the nutrients I need from a vegan diet, plus all the "elements" of the food in balance, then why do I have to kill another animal?

 

Its not impossible.. like I said we have hands we have feet, we have technology. Maybe if we had a large enough focus in society we can make it a "vegan" friendly world. It is ideal... right now. Doesn't have to be 'plants' what if we could with technology invent something that would give us the ability to produce our own nutrients without having to harm the ecosystem in a natural way.

 

assuming that veganism is the optimal diet ethically & spiritually is entirely subjective. that's a whole debate onto itself.

 

if we keep placing technology between us and our health and the food that we eat, and relying on it more every day, our society is simply going to continue on this downward spiral of destroying the planet and us, as human beings, are going to be more disconnected from our roots and from our true nature.

 

is this what we want our future to be like?

[Non]

assuming that veganism is the optimal diet ethically & spiritually is entirely subjective. that's a whole debate onto itself.

 

if we keep placing technology between us and our health and the food that we eat, and relying on it more every day, our society is simply going to continue on this downward spiral of destroying the planet and us, as human beings, are going to be more disconnected from our roots and from our true nature.

 

is this what we want our future to be like?

 

My reasons for being vegan are not even purely ethical and 'spiritual' but more than that. And your example of technology is only one example of a multitude of uses and types of technology we can use. You're still thinking "artificial."

 

Just because one method is 'old' or 'ancient' doesn't make it the wisest choice.

 

I mean, to say that there is only one optimal diet for every individual on Earth isn't correct. People are different. It's my individual choice to choose the diet I choose, and in the best way I can. It all comes down to nutrients, if we can get them no matter in which way, and in a balanced way, without harm, why not?

 

You still seem to think we are incapable of living purely on a vegan diet healthily either because environmental issues or "human incapabilities" which are based on the individual, not all humans, not all the human beings on Earth are incapable. Even if some are incapable, that doesn't always mean that we can't come up with a way either.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Non

[immortal_sister]

My reasons for being vegan are not even purely ethical and 'spiritual' but more than that. And your example of technology is only one example of a multitude of uses and types of technology we can use. You're still thinking "artificial."

 

Just because one method is 'old' or 'ancient' doesn't make it the wisest choice.

 

i am far less concerned with what is "ancient" than with what is natural and optimal for a human being. period.

 

I mean, to say that there is only one optimal diet for every individual on Earth isn't correct. People are different. It's my individual choice to choose the diet I choose, and in the best way I can. It all comes down to nutrients, if we can get them no matter in which way, and in a balanced way, without harm, why not?

 

some people can be vegan their entire life and be in perfect health. some people can eat mcdonalds their whole life and live to be 90. does that mean it is the best diet that they could have possibly eaten?

 

i do think it matters where the nutrients come from. vitamins that come from a pill or from enriched foods are not the same as those we absorb when eating fresh whole foods. my main point in this this thread has been that to get all the nutrients that one truly needs from a vegan diet is not always as simple as some people make it sound, especially in more northern climates. for example, if you have to rely on pills & supplements to get all your essential nutrients then your diet is lacking.

 

 

You still seem to think we are incapable of living purely on a vegan diet healthily either because environmental issues or "human incapabilities" which are based on the individual, not all humans, not all the human beings on Earth are incapable. Even if some are incapable, that doesn't always mean that we can't come up with a way either.

 

you are putting words in my mouth. environmental issues have nothing to do with "human incapabilities". the weather we live in and the latitude at which we live affects our health, that's just a reality. diet should be simple, accessible, local, fresh, and whole. that's my personal belief.

Edited December 13, 2009 by immortal_sister

[Non]

ok. Whatever, we have differing opinions. You seem to think that you know the 'optimal diet' for every human being. I don't think there is one optimal diet for every human being. What's optimal is really an individual thing unless we were all exactly the same. Are you hung up on the fact that when I say technology to you it seems "unnatural"? When I speak of technology, the human body is a technology it's "natural". Food preparation is a "technology", the tools we use, are technology. I don't necessarily mean 'artificial' technologies like we're all used to seeing like the ones only government controlled mainstream media let's us know about, or ones that simply don't work and are harmful, or unbalanced. I'm pretty sure the "vegan" lifestyle and/or one that doesn't harm other animals the ecosystem or oneself is impossible. I also don't think eating meat based diet is the only one optimal diet.

 

Look at the word diet. DIEt. Which is based on 'death'. The natural desire to die. How do you want to die? What's your diet? It's based on the individual. Lol you don't have to pay much attention to the above I just said because it's just a play on words I noticed, I don't know the etymology of the word diet. But my main point is an optimal diet is not universal. Conditionare are different in other places of the universe, and those species living on another planet might have 'optimal diets' for them which are totally different from ours, they might also be at a different stage of evolution.

 

The main principle of a vegan diet is a diet that doesn't necessitate harm in gathering the energy and vitality we need. That's the principle I concern myself with the most, not just "plant foods". Remember vegans also eat fungi, and some still eat yeast, fermented food, microbiological organisms.

 

So what, if we use "technology". We all cook our foods, or prepare them in such a way that we can more easily digest our foods, or for convinience. Its all about optimal assimilation right? Not all vegans that eat mock meats are interested in them because they miss eating meat. They might also want to mimick it's desirable texture, convinient shape and qualities in certain recipes, flavor and smell similar to the meat like quality, etc. You taste and smell the combinations of ingredients in meat, which can also be gotten from other sources, without harm. What might also be considered harmful is a subjective thing as well. So it really comes down to personal choice many times, not a particular belief that it's the one absolute optimum diet for humanity. We all don't have to have the same limitations that one individual does, nor of that opinion.

 

I don't think you really see my point so I'm not going to continue this discussion.

Edited December 14, 2009 by Non

[immortal_sister]

no, i do not know what the optimal diet for every human being is, nor was i implying that humans "need" meat. again, you are putting words in my mouth. for some, veganism may be optimal, for others a meat-based diet may be preferable (speaking only from a health perspective). this is what i have said from the beginning.

 

i am and will always be vegan or mostly vegan. right now i am maybe 90% vegan, and feel very healthy this way. i know that as things change in my life, i will probably go back to complete veganism. that's just me listening to my own body. i am not pushing these beliefs on anyone, just sharing my experience and trying to include some words of caution to those who may think that there are no potential shortcomings to the vegan diet.

Edited December 14, 2009 by immortal_sister