acid/LSD question

[Guest paul walter]

What is so good about easy? Oy... I give up.... I never thought I would become the old fart...This IS a taoist forum right? When did taoism become synonymous with easy or with dropping acid...What does either of those things have to do with Taoism???

Ok.. time for me to retire from this thread... Anger and frustration can be as much a drug as anything else...

Bye...

 

 

If you remember that Taoism, practices, energy etc are the drug of choice for most who post on TTB then it's easier to see Hydro's pov. and how he is just 'talking amongst friends'. Pal

[lino]

Very well put.

 

what ticked you off then?

 

a certain spiritual technique? or did it just happen out of the blue?

 

What ticked me off is a number of things:

 

1. I have a habit of falling into bad moods and attaching to them for days on end for years.

2. I wasn't on an exercise regiment.

3. coffee habit

4. Smoking habit.

5. Used ephedrine to work out in my younger years. The body converts some of that ephedrine into

meth.

6. I was down to one meal a day because it felt more comfortable for breathing practices.

 

All of these things mount up. What's worse is that I've been feeling all aspects of aversion, ill-will, and hatred and these aren't good for the body.

 

If I had to do it all over again the way to have started (I think) before cultivating was to have started exercising vigorously for at least three months. Five days a week. Two days for strength/muscular

endurance and three days for cardiovascular training for 30-45 minutes a day...enough to show

sweat on half a t-shirt.

 

After the first three months start some sort of insight/mindfulness practice until I would have been

to squash any bad mood and quit smoking and drinking coffee. Start some sort of sitting after two months.

 

Also, if I have to choose, exercise would have been picked over sitting if I was pressed for time.

 

Figure, a person can hum "Om Ah Hung' to themselves all day long, while doing something, and not get

tired of it. These three primordial syllables help clear the body of unwholesome stuff.

 

The 10 fetters of Buddhism can be tied to TCM/5 Elements theory. After clearing the 10 fetters a person can become an Arhat and they could have never experienced "emptiness".

Edited December 19, 2009 by lino

[voidisyinyang]

This is a great documentary on ayahuasca

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfUFLibqX7A...player_embedded

 

Thx everyone for the replies. I guess alot of people didnt understand or pay attention to my "(in before "don't do it, its bad for you")" disclaimer. Was basicly saying i didnt want arguments about its dangers. I suppose for some people you would need to reinforce the potential dangers to them and you guys dont know me personally so...

 

Rest assured, if i do try it, it will be as calculated as possible.

[Old Man Contradiction]

Oh?

 

How would you like to have the "hallucination" of a "new world" open up and find out that these "hallucinations" have some control over your body and can make you feel like you are physically burning...or feel like you are getting stabbed at and cut?

 

What would you do in order to make it stop?

 

I found out that "anti-psychotics" DO NOT WORK.

 

I was into something that was WAY OVER MY PAY-GRADE and may still be in it more than two years after the fact. Also, I didn't take drugs.

 

It takes years, decades, and maybe centuries to become the stable person that would be able to handle that kind of situation.

 

Do you really want to expose Hydro to needless suffering that he or she may not be able to handle?

 

The "bad trip" from the chemical may end but do you want to get stuck in the "new world" for years trying to find a way to get out?

 

Keep in mind that there are over 2 million schizophrenics in the US. Go see what kind of a lifestyle they live.

 

Do you want to be responsible if Hydro's quality of life takes a dramatic and crippling drop?

 

It may not hurt you because you'll never see Hydro or what happens to him or her...since what you see is what I see, a whole bunch of text on the screen of a computer.

 

Do you want to see the possibility of Hydro getting the thorns without the roses?

Also, you just aren't dealing with the temporary "effects" of a drug. You are dealing with the dramatic weakening of the body's energy field which would take months and maybe years to recover from. Why do you think that a master or teacher says not to do it?

 

You are talking to someone who experienced LSD induced long term psychotic paranoia. I lived my everyday live within the paradigm that I was always being watched and my environment manipulated by an elite underground group of awakened people. They could read my thoughts and everything, and my entire city was designed around my awakening process. I was fucking crazy. Anyway, I think the original poster has a mind of his own and doesn't need any more comments on the matter.

[Hyrdo]

What you ought to really look into is abstinence, Hyrdo.. your body is like a temple - treat it with

the respect it deserves, and listen to those who have been where you intend to go, and listen

wisely. Please.

 

 

I dont think acid could do any more damage than the junk food i have to eat, or the fluoridated water i must ingest from time to time.

[C T]

I dont think acid could do any more damage than the junk food i have to eat, or the fluoridated water i must ingest from time to time.

You speak as if you have no choice? If you really are not able to abstain from junk food and

fluoridated water, why then compound it with mind-altering substances? It does not make much

sense to me. I suppose OMC was right to say you do have a mind of your own - after all, who do

we really think we are to play God with your decisions eh? I just pray you do make the right ones

though. Looking on the bright side, at least if you screw up, there is always TTB to fall back on for

remedial advice - there's plenty of evidence of young people who have made the wrong

decisions, wised up, and then return here to try and get counsel on how to mend their paths. Are you

gonna be a part of this statistic? Really hope not.

 

Wishing you the very best, and much blessings.

[Andy_W]

Hi Hyrdo,

 

Please be very careful with LSD, mushrooms are a better choice and can be a much smoother experience. If you choose to use hallucinogens then only take a very small amount first to gauge your sensitivity and make sure your experience is in a safe quiet place with someone you trust.

 

If you're after spiritual experiences that will blow your mind, then why not try a retreat. A ten day vipassana retreat wouldnt disappoint or any spiritual retreat would be worth considering. Youd have a much cleaner/higher experience this way and it would most likely enliven any spiritual practice that you do.

 

Just a suggestion

Good luck

 

Andy

[Deepbluesea]

I wouldn't say don't do it because it could or will fuck you up permanently (though it might, and it might not be the brain/body chemistry that does it (while we were tripping once, a couple of my friends were playing with a hair dryer and thought it would be cool to immerse it in water to see the effect, luckily someone stepped in and said that was a really, really bad idea))

 

I would say that if you are going to try and use it for ego death, I have never known that to be an effect.

 

It is remarkable that you don't really seem to take care of yourself in terms of diet, you mention the ADD and the lack of patience. You are certainly not alone there. Acid is not going to help you with any this either.

 

If you need an excuse to do it, any excuse will do.

 

If you want to promote better overall health, increase in natural dmt, and work toward ego death, there are many non-external-chemical viable avenues to choose from. In my experience acid did NOTHING toward achieving my spiritual goals. (Though it was a lot of fun).

[C T]

Hi Hyrdo,

 

Please be very careful with LSD, mushrooms are a better choice and can be a much smoother experience. If you choose to use hallucinogens then only take a very small amount first to gauge your sensitivity and make sure your experience is in a safe quiet place with someone you trust.

 

If you're after spiritual experiences that will blow your mind, then why not try a retreat. A ten day vipassana retreat wouldnt disappoint or any spiritual retreat would be worth considering. Youd have a much cleaner/higher experience this way and it would most likely enliven any spiritual practice that you do.

 

Just a suggestion

Good luck

 

Andy

A vipassana retreat is an excellent suggestion!

[Hyrdo]

A vipassana retreat is an excellent suggestion!

 

If i dont have the money to eat properly what makes you think i have the money for a retreat?

I'm glad everyone is trying to help but hardly any seems to pay attention to my disclaimer at the start of the

post or the reply i made reiterating it. I grew up with D.A.R.E. and a drugy mom, I used to demonize drugs as a young teen. Sence then iv tryed a hand full of stuff and almost ODed on cocain being reckless with it. I have had several friends that have done acid that i could do it with. ATM im straight edge and mainly want to explore its possibilities . Anyways maby its my fault for not being clear enough

 

>>> I don't want D.A.R.E lectures. <<<<

 

Anyways iv already gotten a really good link from what i can tell should i decide to try it, cuz lol atm i dont even have the 10 dollars it takes. So, yeah this post had a good run, thx *everyone* for their replies.

 

Peace and luvv maaan

[Sarnyn]

To my mind, lose the acid. I think the best hallucinogen is psilocybin mushrooms. It doesn't have to processed, cooked, or smoked, it's just straight from mother earth. I wouldn't worry about it, also the last bit of acid WILL NOT necessarily be all paranoia, that is obviously only Ninpo's experience and I wouldn't pay much attention to that considering you are an individual. I say experiment if to get it out of your system, but if you really want to grow travel and find a guide or take the experiences hand-in-hand with some form of mindfulness discipline.

 

acid is also from the earth, it is either derived from morning glory seeds, or else it is chemically isolated from a fungus called Ergot (the original method) which grows on primarily barely type plants. Physiologically speaking, there isn't much more complexity in a mushroom than there is in a fungus. They are both very old, simply kinds of organisms. In other words one isn't any more natural than another. Acid isn't replicated chemically, it is grown with the use of a solution which basically an ideal growing condition for the ergot fungus.

 

But in any case, most people here seem to be making an argument agaisnt chemical hallucinogens, and while I am certainly not going to say they are necessary, I would like to offer my opinion of why they can help a person.

 

My argument is that all sense sensation in the body manifests as a chemical reaction in the nerve centers and brain of the body. Data is interpreted by the brain and nerve centers in order to create a representation of reality. What we normally assume is that the way our brain chooses to interpret reality is a correct description of objective reality, or the Tao. However, this is not the way that evolution works, evolution doesn't choose what is the most true, evolution chooses what is the most useful which might not correspond to what is true at all. The sense capacity of the brain basically functions as a filter and final interpreted. As a filter, it basically interrupts or ignores any data that hasn't proved pertinent to survival. So this vision we have of the world, this subjective vision, cannot be said to represent actual deep reality. It is at best, a subjective interpretation of an unknown fraction of the data.

 

The problem is that the reality that we perceive is constantly verified by the way that we choose to live our life, and by the way that we reinforce it through language. A word, as a functioning unit, always restricts reality, as does any definition. But the word, or the definition rearely ever expresses the full nature of deep reality (presumably.)

 

So the usefulness of psychedelics, I prefer to say ritual hallucinogens because I think they should only be used in the context of ritual, is to show how easily these collectors and interpreters of data that make up the nerves system and brain can be altered, how other realities can be created based on the disruption, or alteration of the chemical process of awareness.

 

What is important to remember is that the reality experienced on a hallucinogenic trip is no more real than the reality that we normally perceive. It is, in the words of Castaneda, a state of "Non Ordinary Reality" that is equally subjective to the normal everyday consciousness.

 

It is easily possible for an adept to realize this on their own through the practice of meditation without the use of ritual hallucinogens. But for a person with a very strong attachment to what they perceive as normal reality, everyday reality, chemical hallucinogens can ease their efforts in surpassing this what is for some, very difficult hurdle.

 

 

For the Original Poster,

 

I wish that instead of just telling me not to do it when I first tried acid, somebody would have given me some good advice instead, since I am a stubborn person. So I am going to give the OP some advice here,

 

1. when you take it, make sure you take it when you don't have responsibilities for the rest of the day, and preferably nothing important to do in the morning. The trip will only last about 6-8 hours depending, but you still won't want to do much in the morning. I'd recommending planning for the occasion, and not to do it spontaneously. Spontaneity in this matter will only lead to anxiety, which will lead to a bad trip.

 

2. When you take it, take care first to make sure you are going to be in an environment that you feel comfortable, and around only people that you absolutely trust. If you are going to take acid, do it with your best friend, NOT with a casual acquaintance. Unfamiliar people or settings can lead to anxiety before the trip swings into full gear, and can lead you to having a "bad" trip.

 

3. Take enough to make the trip significant. I'm not an expert on specific varieties of acid that have been produced. But whenever I have taken acid (only a few times) I have taken at least 2 tabs/ or candies depending on what form it came in. Next time, since I know how i react mentally and how I can control my emotional state, I will probably take more.

 

4. Don't try to go out into the busy world. Just trust me when I say you don't really want to try to drive a car or be around a big group of people at some party. Taking acid should be undertaken as a solitary (or with a small number of very close friends) experience, where time for contemplation and examination of the senses can occur. Don't do it at a party, at a rave, at school, at the mall, at work, or anywhere where that is very busy. Use the time to contemplate the reaction of your mind in a soothing, isolated environment.

 

Now all that being said, recreational drug use should be avoided, because it has no function. But using a ritual hallucinogen can be a useful for exploring and understanding the limitations of the sense doors.

 

For literature, read Aldrous Huxley's 'Doors of Perception', Carlos Castaneda's 'Teachings of Don Juan the Yaqui Way of Knowledge' and 'A Sepperate Reality,' Allen and Unwins 'Flesh of the Gods,' and perhaps Zaehner's 'Zen, Drugs, and Mysticism.'

 

There are a lot of good books on the subject, I can point you to more if those aren't sufficient.

[Sarnyn]

If i dont have the money to eat properly what makes you think i have the money for a retreat?

I'm glad everyone is trying to help but hardly any seems to pay attention to my disclaimer at the start of the

post or the reply i made reiterating it. I grew up with D.A.R.E. and a drugy mom, I used to demonize drugs as a young teen. Sence then iv tryed a hand full of stuff and almost ODed on cocain being reckless with it. I have had several friends that have done acid that i could do it with. ATM im straight edge and mainly want to explore its possibilities . Anyways maby its my fault for not being clear enough

 

>>> I don't want D.A.R.E lectures. <<<<

 

Anyways iv already gotten a really good link from what i can tell should i decide to try it, cuz lol atm i dont even have the 10 dollars it takes. So, yeah this post had a good run, thx *everyone* for their replies.

 

Peace and luvv maaan

 

After reading this post I am going to give you some very frank advice. I just made a big long post where I was talking about the ways that ritual hallucinogens can be useful, but I made that post with a certain pre-requisite in mind. I think that living a balanced life with a balanced mind is far more informing and important than anything you will earn from acid or any other ritual hallucinogen. I wouldn't suggest doing them unless you have already done a lot of work to cultivate the tranquility of your mind, and to cultivate your spirit. Without doing that preliminary work, whatever lessons the acid or mushrooms or Datura or Salvia or Peyote might have to teach you, will probably be lost.

 

I don't know you, so I won't make assumptions, but just take care to ensure that if you contemplate doing any of these things for the purpose of your spiritual enlightenment, that you approach it first with a calm, balanced mind with equanimity. Otherwise, hallucinogens are a bad idea.

 

Also, there are some great Vippasana retreats that are completely free of Charge. Here is a link to a great community that offers free ten days retreats all over the world.

 

http://www.dhamma.org/

 

Not only are the retreats free, but they feed and house you the entire time, so you can't use money as an excuse. I have been to two of their retreats and they are enormously beneficial.

 

with meta

Edited December 19, 2009 by Sarnyn

[Old Man Contradiction]

acid is also from the earth, it is either derived from morning glory seeds, or else it is chemically isolated from a fungus called Ergot (the original method) which grows on primarily barely type plants. Physiologically speaking, there isn't much more complexity in a mushroom than there is in a fungus. They are both very old, simply kinds of organisms. In other words one isn't any more natural than another. Acid isn't replicated chemically, it is grown with the use of a solution which basically an ideal growing condition for the ergot fungus.

 

But in any case, most people here seem to be making an argument agaisnt chemical hallucinogens, and while I am certainly not going to say they are necessary, I would like to offer my opinion of why they can help a person.

 

My argument is that all sense sensation in the body manifests as a chemical reaction in the nerve centers and brain of the body. Data is interpreted by the brain and nerve centers in order to create a representation of reality. What we normally assume is that the way our brain chooses to interpret reality is a correct description of objective reality, or the Tao. However, this is not the way that evolution works, evolution doesn't choose what is the most true, evolution chooses what is the most useful which might not correspond to what is true at all. The sense capacity of the brain basically functions as a filter and final interpreted. As a filter, it basically interrupts or ignores any data that hasn't proved pertinent to survival. So this vision we have of the world, this subjective vision, cannot be said to represent actual deep reality. It is at best, a subjective interpretation of an unknown fraction of the data.

 

The problem is that the reality that we perceive is constantly verified by the way that we choose to live our life, and by the way that we reinforce it through language. A word, as a functioning unit, always restricts reality, as does any definition. But the word, or the definition rearely ever expresses the full nature of deep reality (presumably.)

 

So the usefulness of psychedelics, I prefer to say ritual hallucinogens because I think they should only be used in the context of ritual, is to show how easily these collectors and interpreters of data that make up the nerves system and brain can be altered, how other realities can be created based on the disruption, or alteration of the chemical process of awareness.

 

What is important to remember is that the reality experienced on a hallucinogenic trip is no more real than the reality that we normally perceive. It is, in the words of Castaneda, a state of "Non Ordinary Reality" that is equally subjective to the normal everyday consciousness.

 

 

Acid being a derivative from the LSA containing morning glory seed renders it unnatural. You also over simplified the LSD synthesis from the ergot source. They call it semi-synthetic because parts of the original compound remain intact, but other parts are from synthetic additions. Once the original structure of the organic but poisonous ergotamine is destroyed in order to make the alterations that end up as LSD, it is no longer organic/natural and is therefore, to my mind, not part of mother earth.

 

Psilocybin however is edible without tampering.

 

I think overcomplicating the experience is a big problem with the way it's used. Too many theories of it's play on reality and internal structure. I believe the real meat and bones of it is that it makes any experience compelling. Your focus can be zoomed in on the present moment like a microscope.

 

Just got to make sure them thoughts don't distract.

[Sarnyn]

Acid being a derivative from the LSA containing morning glory seed renders it unnatural. You also over simplified the LSD synthesis from the ergot source. They call it semi-synthetic because parts of the original compound remain intact, but other parts are from synthetic additions. Once the original structure of the organic but poisonous ergotamine is destroyed in order to make the alterations that end up as LSD, it is no longer organic/natural and is therefore, to my mind, not part of mother earth.

 

Psilocybin however is edible without tampering.

 

I think overcomplicating the experience is a big problem with the way it's used. Too many theories of it's play on reality and internal structure. I believe the real meat and bones of it is that it makes any experience compelling. Your focus can be zoomed in on the present moment like a microscope.

 

Just got to make sure them thoughts don't distract.

 

you are right, I was oversimplifying the synthesis of these two sources. But that was just for brevities sake. I suppose it comes down to what your definition of "Natural" is. In my mind, if the beneficial elements of any chemical that you intend to ingest can be isolated (be they a ritual hallucinogen or chemicals for for medicinal use) there is no reason not to do it, if it means a better result.

 

Complication can be used as a meditative focus. It's possible to think of this as being analogous to the methods of chemical purification utilized by the european Alchemists, or even Taoist alchemists. If removing a base element or chemical structure from a plant makes it unnatural, then wouldn't it make us unnatural when we seek to purify our own mind through the process of internal alchemy?

 

Really the naturalness of thing, should be less important than it's over all effect, and benefit to us in the process of our own purification.

 

But anyway, you are right, what I said was an oversimplification.

 

With meta

[Old Man Contradiction]

you are right, I was oversimplifying the synthesis of these two sources. But that was just for brevities sake. I suppose it comes down to what your definition of "Natural" is. In my mind, if the beneficial elements of any chemical that you intend to ingest can be isolated (be they a ritual hallucinogen or chemicals for for medicinal use) there is no reason not to do it, if it means a better result.

 

LSD isn't an isolate, it's derived and synthesized. But that's not really our issue here.

 

Complication can be used as a meditative focus. It's possible to think of this as being analogous to the methods of chemical purification utilized by the european Alchemists, or even Taoist alchemists. If removing a base element or chemical structure from a plant makes it unnatural, then wouldn't it make us unnatural when we seek to purify our own mind through the process of internal alchemy?

 

I don't really know about internal alchemy. But I know for sure that it doesn't, for example, take serotonin and strip it of half it's structure and add other molecules to in order to create a new chemical. I thought internal alchemy balances your internal levels.

 

Really the naturalness of thing, should be less important than it's over all effect, and benefit to us in the process of our own purification.

 

This is true. My understanding based on my experience with LSD and mushrooms is that LSD is more prone to harm, at least to me, than mushrooms because it is devoid earth's energy (could be true, could not be true, just how I've come to think of why LSD after a while harmed me and mushrooms didn't). That is not say it's useless though.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Old Man Contradiction

[Hyrdo]

Sarnyn, thx for the replies, definitely informative.

Also, im definitely gonna look into those Vipassana retreats.

One isnt in my state but states near me at least (i dont think they pay for your travels ? lol).

Also im gonna do my damnest to start eating better and doing some exercises. Even if that means my diet consist of a can or 2 of tunafish a day with some pineapples.

Iv already been working on my meditation, and the exercises before it definitely seemed to help.

[voidisyinyang]

In case you want more Spring Forest Qigong downloads -- here's the original free download -- should be easier:

 

http://rapid.org/board/showthread.php?t=252054

 

Just scroll down and you'll find tons of SFQ and plenty other meditation info.

 

Sarnyn, thx for the replies, definitely informative.

Also, im definitely gonna look into those Vipassana retreats.

One isnt in my state but states near me at least (i dont think they pay for your travels ? lol).

Also im gonna do my damnest to start eating better and doing some exercises. Even if that means my diet consist of a can or 2 of tunafish a day with some pineapples.

Iv already been working on my meditation, and the exercises before it definitely seemed to help.