Enlightenment is a cultural myth?

[宁]

We haven't even learned the first letters of the 'practice alphabet', and still, so eager to come up with simple or fancy definitions... Why does this happen? When a higher truth is turned into everyday rubbish, our consciousness is violated... we may hardly enter again the state of purity that allows us to have a chanse at that enlightenment, no matter what it is.

I like a saying that I've seen around in a fellow TTB's signature: since you don't know exactly what enlightenment is, just seek to evolve.

I agree, in the sense that if you already consider yourself at the end of the road, you probably reached a dead-end. Like the people that think they are masters...

Another saying that Ive seen around and liked, regarding this: If a person that thinks is a master is not also a student, that person is neither.

I won't be surprised to see karmic consequences of this violation that I'm talking about, I'll wait and see how it work thou, maybe I can learn something.

 

edit spellings

 

Edited December 16, 2009 by Little1

[Ya Mu]

...

I agree, in the sense that if you already consider yourself at the end of the road, you probably reached a dead-end. Like the people that think they are masters...

Another saying that Ive seen around and liked, regarding this: If a person that thinks is a master is not also a student, that person is neither.

...

If a person thinks they have reached the highest state they need to start over. There are always higher levels.

 

All this talk is taking away from needed practice... Back to it...

[Kameel]

Agree with Ya Mu...off to meditate.

[lino]

University of life, mate (sniff)

Suggest:

 

Activity of the enlightened person would be based on love. Not soppy love or romantic love of course but a willingness to make themselves vulnerable for the benefit of others. Buddhists would say compassion - the reason Bodhisattvas teach (see Lino's posts above). And also uncontrived love, that is love without thinking about love.

 

 

Uh

 

You got it right but...

 

they aren't vulnerable to ANYTHING

 

even when they "transition", they don't die

 

that is why the virtues of not depending on the outcome and patience are emphasized.

 

They already taught us that there isn't a "permanent self" so with enough patience the outcome is going to turn to something more desireable anyway.

Edited December 17, 2009 by lino

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

University of life, mate (sniff)

 

 

University of life! I have done extensive research online, just now, and can confidently say there is no such establishment of higher learning with the aforementioned name! It does not exist, save for a few mythical references here and there! How dare you!

 

Your wanton use of the word 'and' throughout your posts quite obviously calling my parentage into question(many have)is a slight no man should have to bear! You have left me with no other recourse.

 

I demand satisfaction!!!

 

*glove slaps face*

 

I propose a duel! The hurling of books at each others heads at ten paces(hardback)at dawn, until one or the other is unconscious! And Apepch7, do not be bringing your 'Herges adventures of Tintin, Cigars of the Pharaohs' unless your willing to swap it for about a week with my Tintin and 'the blue lotus'. And I'll thank you to return my 'Tintin does Bethlehem', it's overdue at the library. How dare you!

 

 

 

 

Enlightenment is a hot Asian girl Little1??

 

I think you might be onto something there. The quest begins!!! It has always been thus. Hark! I hear destiny calling me, all be it in broken English and a short skirt.

[ShaktiMama]

ShaktiMama,

 

No offense taken!

 

If you chose not to watch the clips thats fine too! Its not for adults anyway..

 

That which IS, according to your understanding, is Consciousness, which is you, in other words.

So your Consciousness is experiencing All that is Sacred, and there is really no separation then

between the Consciousness, the Sacred, and that which IS. There are really no limitations there at all

are there? Every thing is contained within the Consciousness, and the the Consciousness is none other

than that which IS. Is this the right way to put it?

 

So the question here to you is what is preventing you from living and experiencing the IS now? This

very moment? Who is it that imposed a separation? And who is it who can lift this imposition?

Is the separation real? If it is, who then makes it real? If it is not real, again, there is really no

separation then, is there?

 

If we choose to see it as a lifetime's struggle before we can get closer to that which IS, that is the

reality we give ourselves. Most people opt for this route because it is such a universally prevalent

attitude. Its like if we dont suffer, we dont deserve to be free of suffering, and so we choose to

live in apparent separation from that which IS in order to come back to union with that which IS after

we have done enough homework.. Isnt that odd? I am sure there is a much simpler alternative, one

that many will not accept because it is simply too direct. And so we carry on with our diligence, laborious

and virtuous efforts, and beating ourselves silly over the heads (many see this as a productive endeavor)

with an imagined baseball bat! Life can be quite funny like that..

 

Excellent point A7!!

 

The key is how vulnerable is one willing to become? How much are we willing to let go, to break

down our walls?

 

 

I have filters in place. It is necessary so I can function in this world. Remove the filters and I plunge into Samadhi. The "volume control" for the intensity of being in constant contact with All That IS, i dial down.

 

Remove the filters and the ecstasy that bubbles permanently in the marrow of my bones instantly begins to expand filling my body, my mind and my spirit. I begin to laugh and giggle overcome with love and gratitude for being alive and being in the Presence of Pure Consciousness.

 

The screens over my human eyes raise and in each human being I see the perfect Self. Struck by such exquisite beauty I fall to my knees weeping. Weeping for joy at seeing such perfection in each person and weeping for sorrow that few can see this within themselves.

 

The screens over my self drop and everywhere I see the scintillating light of pure consciousness where once before I saw trees, animals, buildings, the beautiful, the ugly, and the profane. There is only the diamond pure clear light of Consciousness that illuminates all that is whether material or immaterial, whether living or inert.

 

The screens over my consciousness drop as my consciousness merges with the Consciousness of All That Is. I feel/see my little self spread across the stars of the mulitiverses watching Self observe Self and we become One.

 

Walking between two realities my human body hums and twists with the most exquisite bliss while Self witnesses.

 

My breath stops within my chest and I lose my consciousnessness into the Bliss of the Divine Play of Consciousness.

 

My goal this coming year is to stay in Samadhi while I teach, while I work , while i live in my little glorious world.

 

While practicing to live my life without screens between myself and All That Is, I teach and love my students. I train those who wished to be trained.

 

Like I say to my students and have said on this board, "when kundalini awakes, you are changed forever."

 

May the joy of Shakti gently flow.

 

Susan

 

"Lead me from the unreal to the Real, Lead me from the darkness to the Light, Lead me from the temporary to the Eternal". Brihadaranyaka Upanishad

[manitou]

I say enlightenment is knowing Who we Really Are.

[Kameel]

Back from meditation. Enlightenment ='s eternal flow of existence.

[lino]

That's a little presumptuous really, I was hoping you would explain your post.

That's a good question - do they ever answer?

 

I said "probably", if you haven't already

Edited December 17, 2009 by lino

[~jK~]

Enlightenment is also a level that must be reached within meditation to prepare the mind as well as a level within the body and the breath. Once these have been tuned and elevated to a maximum potential then the enlightenment processes begin - and there are more than one. How many? Honestly I hope it never ends.

 

On page 48 of my copy of The Secret of The Golden Flower is chapter 6, titled Confirmatory Experiences During the Circulation of the Light It tells of a few of my experiences - but it does not tell of this part:

Jade Emperor's Mind Seal Classic

 

1. The Supreme Medicine has three distinctions:

Ching (essence), Qi (vitality) and Shen (spirit), which are elusive and obscure.

 

2. Keep to nonbeing, yet hold on to being and perfection is yours in an instant.

 

3. When distant winds blend together,

in one hundred days of spiritual work

And morning recitation to the Shang Ti,

Then in one year you will soar as an immortal.

 

4. The sages awaken through self-cultivation;

Deep, profound, their practices require great effort.

 

5. Fulfilling vows illumines the Heavens.

 

6. Breathing nourishes youthfulness.

 

7. Departing from the Mysterious, entering the female.

It appears to have perished, yet appears to exist.

Unmoveable, it's orgin is mysterious.

 

8. Each person has Ching.

The Shen unites with the Ching,

The Shen unites with the Qi,

The breath then unites with the true nature,

These terms appear to be fanciful exaggerations.

 

9. The Shen is capable of entering stone;

The Shen is capable of physical flight.

Entering water it is not drowned;

Entering fire it is not burned.

 

10. The Shen depends on life form;

The Ching depends on sufficient Qi.

If these are neither depleted nor injured

the result will be youthfulness and longevity.

 

11. These three distinctions have one principle,

Yet so subtle it cannot be heard.

 

12. Their meeting results in existence,

their parting results in nonexistence.

 

13. The seven apertures interpenetrate

and each emits wisdom light.

 

14. The sacred sun and sacred moon

Illumuniate the Golden Court.

One attainment is eternal attainment.

 

15. The body will naturally become weightless.

When the supreme harmony is replete,

the bone fragments become like winter jade.

 

16. Acquiring the Elixir results in immortality,

not acquiring it results in extinction.

 

17. The Elixir is within yourself,

It is not white and not green.

 

18. Recite and hold ten thousand times.

These are the subtle principles of self-illumination.

 

(Lu Szu-hsing's appended verses)

 

19. The two images of the dragon and tiger are unified through Qi;

Chaos blending as One.

 

20. It is not possible to attain the eternal just through invocations.

 

21. The Elixir is called Green Dragon and White Tiger;

The Elixir is in the nature of no-nature,

Emptiness of nonemptiness.

 

22. Even if you are unable to make use of the substance,

You can certainly make use of the function.

 

23. Frequently both the substance and conditions for the substance appear together,

although these are not always percieved as identical.

 

24. The ancients said, "the term *emptiness* embraces the entire teaching."

 

* Transliterated by Stuart Olson

 

What happens in short is after:

making the body pure with food

Making the body pure with exercise

Making the mind pure with meditation

The Three Jewels come together as one.

 

19. says that: "The two images of the dragon and tiger are unified through Qi; Chaos blending as One."

But there are 2 purifications of the body - 1>the diet and 2>the exercise - one takes in, the other takes out.

Qi, or breath, is the unification elixr.

Meditation is the crucible.

Practice is the key.

Practice

Edited December 17, 2009 by ~jK~

[宁]

Practice

 

That.

 

 

Enlightenment is a hot Asian girl Little1??

 

 

If the concept of ellightenment has a lesser effect on your overall being than that hot babe, well, I'm not qualified to give a diagnosis for that:)

[Apech]

 

I demand satisfaction!!!

 

*glove slaps face*

 

I propose a duel! The hurling of books at each others heads at ten paces(hardback)at dawn, until one or the other is unconscious! And Apepch7, do not be bringing your 'Herges adventures of Tintin, Cigars of the Pharaohs' unless your willing to swap it for about a week with my Tintin and 'the blue lotus'. And I'll thank you to return my 'Tintin does Bethlehem', it's overdue at the library. How dare you!

 

 

 

I was there at dawn ... where were you!

 

I think the girl in the red dress may be more likely to offer you satisfaction anyway.

 

Enlightenment is a cultural miss.

 

 

 

 

 

The screens over my self drop and everywhere I see the scintillating light of pure consciousness where once before I saw trees, animals, buildings, the beautiful, the ugly, and the profane. There is only the diamond pure clear light of Consciousness that illuminates all that is whether material or immaterial, whether living or inert.

 

 

 

 

 

... and yet enlightenment is a cultural myth? Confused now.

Edited December 17, 2009 by apepch7

[ShaktiMama]

 

 

... and yet enlightenment is a cultural myth? Confused now.

 

Indeed.

 

I have had people attack me in a pure rage saying to me, "You call yourself enlightened?" Basically calling me an idiot and a fool.

 

Never once have i claim to be enlightened but yet people do accuse me of it often, some even thinking I proclaimed it aloud.

 

I am nothing, zero. Just a bundle of experiences.

[manitou]

Enlightenment really is a physical thing.

It's the momentary ability to merge with all things physical and non by the body entering into an immediate vessel state. Perhaps degree of enlightenment means how often during the day one can remember to get into the totally receptive state. The physical aspects of enlightenment entail the very subtle bodily things necessary to release all tension, lose control, and go with the flow.

A state of no judgments. A state where you Know you are one with everyone and everything,even the worst derelict on the street. Or the richest person in the world. Or the worst criminal, or the most delicate of victims. There is compassion for all.

An enlightened person is never alone. That person will sense the awareness of a chair, or a spoon. Or a bird or horse.

An enlightened one understands exactly who he or she is. Is.

In the end run, the enlightened one knows there is nothing outside of self to pray to. It's all One.

[ralis]

I was right! Everyone has a different concept of enlightenment.

 

 

ralis

[Apech]

Indeed.

 

I have had people attack me in a pure rage saying to me, "You call yourself enlightened?" Basically calling me an idiot and a fool.

 

Never once have i claim to be enlightened but yet people do accuse me of it often, some even thinking I proclaimed it aloud.

 

I am nothing, zero. Just a bundle of experiences.

 

 

The way you express yourself is very direct and dynamic - no fault in that of course - so I can understand why people react like this sometimes.

 

 

 

Enlightenment really is a physical thing.

 

 

 

Can you explain more how it can be physical?

 

 

 

I was right! Everyone has a different concept of enlightenment.

ralis

 

 

Of course - that's why its a myth ... in some ways a personal myth as well as a cultural one - but that doesn't mean the idea has no purpose.

[rex]

I like that one, rex. Some never lose that when they are born, some must be retrained. But then there is that damn sticky cultural lens when people start to interpret what that means.

Thanks Susan . I like a line from William Blake that goes something along the lines of "It matters not if you're heathen, Turk or Jew, but where Love, Mercy, Pity dwell, there God dwells too".

 

SO i feel to define even further can we say what do we expect of someone's behavior who has become enlightened? Will it be acceptable across cultures? What is self evident?

If accounts of the mahasiddhas are anything to go by I don't think we can expect anything but the unexpected. They could be completely normal or totally outrageous. There does seem to be a common theme of operating for the benefit of others. I sincerely hope you don't get enlightened bastards.

 

In buddhist terms on the path of result - read vajrayana - buddha nature is self evident in the sense that connections are established with deities and tutelary images that evoke and express particular qualities of our innermost/divine/enlightened - (cross out as appropriate) - nature.

 

"Enlightenment is". That statement is nothing more than an absolute anthropocentric view by humans. I don't care if the quote is from a Lama or not. No one can realize the so called absolute nature of all phenomena. Buddha's are given way too much credit. ...

The statement was only a provisional pointer for seekers, not a definitive statement of doctrine or reality. Enlightenment doesn't have to be necessarily anthropocentric as many wisdom traditions speak of the kinship of all life at various levels of existence.

 

Furthermore, Buddhist's deny the existence of any permanent self. Yet, claim a permanent true nature.

Ah this old chestnut again! This has been thrashed around by pedants, the doctrinaire, iconoclasts and axe grinders in other threads, so if anyone's stifling a yawn read no further. Emptiness and buddha nature are countervailing principles that safeguard against nilhism and christ-like complexes where lunatics think they're some sort of deity. I believe the mystical paradox of the relationship between emptiness, buddha nature and identity is resolvable in the crucible of the sincere heart. I'm still resolving ...

[3bob]

Back in the mid 90s I was in conversation with a net acquaintance, a pagan and excellent healer, on a kundalini list. Her name was Morgana.

 

Being on a kundalini list, moderating kundalini lists, and being the owner of my own kundalini list, invariably people ask what enlightenment is. People offer up all kinds of info and descriptions. One day Morgana said back then, "enlightenment is a cultural myth," and it was like a bell ringing to me. Time stood still. After listening to so much talk I realized that people view enlightenment through a cultural lens with all it's baggage.

 

Many claim to be enlightened. Ummm... why?

 

I took to saying enlightened behavior is a descriptor of enlightenment, the state. Then, being the pragmatic contrarian that i am, I said, "enlightenment is what you do in your living room at home when no one's watching."

 

If you meet the Buddha, kill him... Because it is an imposter. Buddha is dead. Or kill him before he kills you first which is what the greatest teachers do. OR....talk among yourselves.

 

-----------------------

A little more on that if we will?

 

- Killing the Buddha -

"There's an old saying, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

Who's that Buddha? What does it mean to "meet" the Buddha? What does killing the Buddha imply?

The historical Buddha, Shakyamuni, on attaining enlightenment, is said to have realized that all beings, just as they are, are Buddhas. If that's so, meeting a Buddha on the road should be a pretty commonplace event! So should being a Buddha on the road! But that's where the word "meeting" comes in. It implies encountering something or someone outside or other than oneself. We all come to practice carrying around images or ideals of who we should be and what we imagine a Teacher or Buddha should look like. And we may chase after individuals that for a while seem like they live up to our image, ignore those who do not, and generally treat ourselves with contempt for not living up to the standards set by our imaginary inner "Buddha." All this may keep us pretty busy, but it has nothing to do with real practice, which is an awareness of who and what we actually are, not the pursuit of some ideal of who we think we should be. So "killing the Buddha" means killing or wiping out this fantasy image, and "the road" is two fold: the road outside where we look outside ourselves for the ones who have all the answers, and the inner mind road, where we set up all the "shoulds" we must obey to turn ourselves into the Buddhas we don't believe we already are, but think we must become.

It is said that Shakyamuni's last dying words to his disciples were, "Be a lamp unto yourselves." Be your own light, your own authority, your own Buddha. Kill off every image of the Buddha, see who and what you are in this very moment, see that there is no Buddha other than THIS MOMENT.

A psychologist friend recently complained that Buddha's last words themselves were a trap. (Actually he called them something much less polite!) How can anybody TELL you to be your own authority? In the guise of liberation, these words become just one more dogma that the disciples submit to. Anybody who TELLS you to "Kill the Buddha" is giving a command as self-contradictory as "Be spontaneous!" It's a good point, and one that shows that this koan and Buddhism in general can't escape a more complex involvement with issues of authority. Our psychological reality is that we have to learn and practice to achieve our independence, and that learning almost inevitably has to take place within the context of some kind of disciplined practice. Remember we have to "kill the Buddhas" inside as well as outside ourselves. If we take this saying to mean only that we should reject all forms of external authority, we will end up leaving ourselves at the mercy of all sorts of, often unconscious, inner "Buddhas." Isaiah Berlin distinguished two kinds liberty he called positive and negative liberty. Negative liberty is freedom FROM, freedom from outside interference of one kind or another. Killing the outside Buddha may give us a version of this negative liberty. Positive liberty is freedom TO, the liberty of enabling conditions. And these are what are provided by a Teacher, a practice, a discipline. Berlin emphasized that the two kinds of liberty were conceptually at odds with one another, and an increase in one automatically meant a decrease in the other. And yet, we cannot thrive without both. Without a formal practice, we will never engage the deeply ingrained unconscious determinants of our character. But any practice, any teacher inevitably offers the risk and the temptation to hand over responsibility to someone or something outside of ourselves. The middle way is our balancing of these two truths. There is no one correct way to balance them, and every teacher, every discipline will offer a unique mix. No one can tell you how you, as a particular individual, ought to practice. Each of us must decide and take responsibility for the balance works best for us. That is how we truly can be a "lamp unto ourselves." "

[goldisheavy]

Back in the mid 90s I was in conversation with a net acquaintance, a pagan and excellent healer, on a kundalini list. Her name was Morgana.

 

Being on a kundalini list, moderating kundalini lists, and being the owner of my own kundalini list, invariably people ask what enlightenment is. People offer up all kinds of info and descriptions. One day Morgana said back then, "enlightenment is a cultural myth," and it was like a bell ringing to me. Time stood still. After listening to so much talk I realized that people view enlightenment through a cultural lens with all it's baggage.

 

Many claim to be enlightened. Ummm... why?

 

I took to saying enlightened behavior is a descriptor of enlightenment, the state. Then, being the pragmatic contrarian that i am, I said, "enlightenment is what you do in your living room at home when no one's watching."

 

If you meet the Buddha, kill him... Because it is an imposter. Buddha is dead. Or kill him before he kills you first which is what the greatest teachers do. OR....talk among yourselves.

 

It's a myth and it's real. All the baggage is a myth. Deeply transformative experience is real though. But in this sense, there may not be one enlightenment, but an endless series of enlightenments. As far as the one grand final enlightenment goes, it's a myth. A carrot. Or maybe even opium of the people.

[Eviander]

As far as my understanding goes..enlightenment, illumination, nibbana, or call it what you will..is culturally signified by the same core understandings and insights into the nature of reality achieved by various mystics

[therion]

.......

Edited December 25, 2009 by therion

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

If the concept of ellightenment has a lesser effect on your overall being than that hot babe, well, I'm not qualified to give a diagnosis for that:)

 

I'll take that cryptic answer to mean: 'there's a very strong possibilty that hot asian girls at least enhance the enlightenment process'. I for one am gonna' give your system a damn good go little1!

 

 

I was there at dawn ... where were you!

 

I think the girl in the red dress may be more likely to offer you satisfaction anyway.

 

 

Again!!! I had prepared some pre-duel orderves, the 'prawn vol au vents' were particularly good. but most of them went to waste due to your lack-lustre attitude toward dueling.

 

By the way, I'm not sure we actually had agreed the venue, I was waiting outside Tescos, don't tell me you were waiting outside one of the last branches of 'Mr Wimpy' in the country were you!!!

[Gerard]

OK I need to give my opinion on this one:

 

The more you discuss this issue the further it will go away. Sitting in front of a computer is not the way of experiencing enlightenment, for sure.

 

Walk it, feel it...DON'T TALK ABOUT IT!

[Apech]

Lol, did he really say that?

 

That's just so fucking deep, a complete method to liberation in one sentence.

 

Take reality as self and your consciousness as a lamp that shines on reality.

 

The awareness of this takes you right there instantly.

 

Wow

 

 

"Oh Bhikkhus! These are my last words now. All conditioned and compounded things have the nature of decay and disintegration. With steadfast mindfulness, endeavour diligently for your own liberation."

[Fox]

Everything is a cultural myth.