Chuang Tsu

[3bob]

[Marblehead]

Hi 3bob,

 

Yep. And I think that this is the problem whenever we feel we need to talk about a beginning and a cause of that, if such a thing exists, beginning.

 

We can look at it from a scientific point of view and say that the beginning was with the 'big bang' but then we have to consider what causes and events led to the 'big bang'.

 

The beginning goes beyond the beginning and therefore I would think that there will also be something beyond the end.

 

And in this regard I can somewhat agree with the Buddhist concept that there is no initial cause but that all things are dependant on (whatever).

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Hello Marblehead,

 

Thank you for your reply. "mind" can only go so far if I'm hearing you correctly?

 

Btw, to me there is the key saying in Buddhism that goes beyond the "dependence of things" aspect of its teachings, as alluded to in the following quote from the Udana text:

 

"There is, monks, an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. If, monks, there were not this unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded, there would not here be an escape from the born, the become, the made, the compounded. But because there is an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded, therefore there is an escape from the born, the become, the made, the compounded".

 

(or in a very generalizied use of the word - things -)

 

Om

[Lucky7Strikes]

Hello Marblehead,

 

Thank you for your reply. "mind" can only go so far if I'm hearing you correctly?

 

Btw, to me there is the key saying in Buddhism that goes beyond the "dependence of things" aspect of its teachings, as alluded to in the following quote from the Udana text:

 

"There is, monks, an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded. If, monks, there were not this unborn, not-become, not-made, not-compounded, there would not here be an escape from the born, the become, the made, the compounded. But because there is an unborn, a not-become, a not-made, a not-compounded, therefore there is an escape from the born, the become, the made, the compounded".

 

(or in a very generalizied use of the word - things -)

 

Om

 

I think we've discussed that quote extensively in previous threads on Buddhism. The quote does not point to an inherent soul, an eternal identity of sorts. It speaks of the characteristic of the eternal, such as seeing, looking, suffering, etc., the action and not the doer or the agent of action: there is the Path, but no one travels it! .

Edited December 18, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[3bob]

from the T.T.C., 25

 

"...To be great is to go on,

To go on is to be far,

To be far is to return..."

 

even though the Tao never really left. (per se)

[soaring crane]

Zhuangzi is usually teasing somebody or other, so watch out.

[Marblehead]

Hello Marblehead,

 

Thank you for your reply. "mind" can only go so far if I'm hearing you correctly?

 

That is to be understood even though I did not say it. We are constantly told that, in regard to knowledge, we must know when to stop.

 

Potential knowledge is unlimited but even the 'mind' is limited so if we try to go beyond our 'mind's' capacity we only cause ourselves worry and confusion.

 

We need to learn to stop in time else we overflow.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Zhuangzi is usually teasing somebody or other, so watch out.

 

This is very true. Many of his stories do not have answers - they are presented for the sole purpose of causing others to think.

 

Peace & Love!

[soaring crane]

 

This is very true. Many of his stories do not have answers - they are presented for the sole purpose of causing others to think.

 

Peace & Love!

 

hehe, I got trapped into a long circular debate about the butterfly, many years ago, and after a loooong time had to finally admit that I was dead wrong. He wasn't that stupid as to not know whether he was dreaming butterfly or not. It's a trap and everyone falls into into when they first meet him. The book is full of them. You really have to be on your toes when getting involved with Zhuangzi. I usually come out on the wrong end.

[Marblehead]

hehe, I got trapped into a long circular debate about the butterfly, ...

 

Hehehe. Don't feel alone on that one. I too tried to add to the story and make believe he said more than he said.

 

Peace & Love!

[3bob]

Thanks for sharing your insights, and warning.

 

- Spirit knowing Spirit - is not of the same type of knowledge that "mind" knowledge is.

Further, in Spirit there is no danger of overflow or overdoing it like you have mentioned with mind knowledge;

for - Spirit gives unto Spirit - and ultimately without such (self) knowledge we get caught up in a, "Vanity of vanities" of some form or another...

 

Chuang Tsu seems to be speaking of what could be called - standing before the gate of the One, with the first and the last of a coming and a going transformation - which I feel is alluded to in the T.T.C. 25. (although such is only my present way of relating to his saying)

 

Om

[Marblehead]

Thanks for sharing your insights, and warning.

 

- Spirit knowing Spirit - is not of the same type of knowledge that "mind" knowledge is.

Further, in Spirit there is no danger of overflow or overdoing it like you have mentioned with mind knowledge;

for - Spirit gives unto Spirit - and ultimately without such (self) knowledge we get caught up in a, "Vanity of vanities" of some form or another...

 

Chuang Tsu seems to be speaking of what could be called - standing before the gate of the One, with the first and the last of a coming and a going transformation - which I feel is alluded to in the T.T.C. 25. (although such is only my present way of relating to his saying)

 

Om

 

Hi 3bob,

 

Nice thoughts. Yes, spirit is the empty vessel. no matter how much we add to it it is never filled and no matter how much we give out of it it is never emptied.

 

Yeah, I think Chuang Tzu went through the gate many times. And I agree, what we are speaking to does relate to Ch 25.

 

Peace & Love!

[DalTheJigsaw123]

What an awesome thread. And I thought I knew what was talked about...

[3bob]

Hi Marblehead,

 

Nice reflections with a beautiful use of terms from you, many thanks!

 

Om

[Marblehead]

Hi Marblehead,

 

Nice reflections with a beautiful use of terms from you, many thanks!

 

Om

 

You're welcome. Anytime. I am sure you know by now that I love talking about Taoist philosophy.

 

Peace & Love!