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Eviander

Eastern and western mysticism

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I am not doubting the fact that most people on this forum probably follow many eastern esoteric and mystical traditions..that being Taoist and Buddhist primarily (I have not seen to many following Hindu but I might be wrong). Anyways..I have for reasons unknown to me been slowly dragged towards the eastern mysticism as opposed to the western mysticism which I was initially interested in. Now I am not trying to start another which is better 'this' or 'that' thread, but I would like peoples opinions on the two branches of mysticism and which is ultimately more complete and older in practice.

 

The one thing that I have read from hermetical writings claiming that the knowledge of the pharaohs, which is supposedly passed on from the times of Atlantis is in fact superior to any form of eastern mysticism and the level of illumination achieved by the pharaoh priests is at a higher cosmic state of enlightenment than the eastern traditions have achieved.

 

Now it is possible for those with little knowledge on the two to say they are the same or they are simply 'one'. But this is not true..since western mysticism expounds upon the astral plane and being born into that plane instead of focusing on reincarnation ect..which is truly a big difference for serious initiates into any tradition.

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I have been completely unimpressed with any Western mysticism I've seen. Maybe I've just never been exposed to the real good stuff?

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For Western mysticism, Franz Bardon's Initiation Into Hermetics is the most comprehensive that I have seen in terms of practice. Very little theory, it's pretty much just practice, and it contains 99 out of 100 practices that I have come across, or explains them better, and the 1 or 2 practices I've come across not explicitly in IIH are either implied or can help you in your IIH practices.

 

When I read a couple chapters of Opening the Dragon Gate: The Making of a Taoist Wizard, I was struck by how similar the practices in the IIH were to the stuff that Wan Liping did according to that book.

 

So yeah.

 

For the most part I'd say that western occultism tends to give emphasis to many spheres of someone's life. Obviously spiritual cultivation is the top priority in those systems, but cultivation of more physical things (health, wealth, power over other things) is not ignored. It's very easy to fall into a sort of "trap" and just become power hungry.... but I guess you can ask- who is more powerful? The person who stays as far away from temptation as possible, or the person who is surrounded by it but maintains the integrity of what he or she is trying to accomplish?

 

Good cases can be made for both sides of the argument.

Edited by Sloppy Zhang

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Hi Eviander,

The reason why Eastern Mysticism seems to be more powerful is that it comes from an unbroken spiritual and cultural heritage that stretches back to the stone age.... European culture and religion was destroyed by the time of the "middle ages" and replaced with Christianity. When the Roman Empire conquered Europe, it usually destroyed any pre-existing mystical traditions, then when Christian Rome sent out missionaries to outlying western Europe to convert "pagans", the Church would usually destroy or incorporate those mystical traditions. The inquisistion did much to destroy any lingering mystical traditions.. If you think about it, as a westerner, try and think as far back as you can in terms of western European history... You will probably not get further back than medieval times. The "dark ages" was the time that Europe was making the transition from pre-Roman paganism to post Roman Monotheistic Christianity.

 

In the East, however, in India, China and Tibet. Their cultural and spiritual history is still intact all the way back to the stone age. and their mystical sciences have an unbroken history and practice dating back to pre-history. Much of modern western stuff is mostly attempts at reconstructing the old ways from scant historical evidence and a little fantasy.. So, I believe that in the west we used to have alot of mystical traditions, but unfortunately most modern druid, wiccan etc... types of traditions are modern reinventions and do not accrately reflect the original sciences... There is certainly nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel... So, who's to say?

 

I met someone who knew someone who had trained in a druidic tradition and apparently had some pretty impressive powers...But the impression I got was that one had to apprentice with a master... so there ARE some good western systems out there. I personally didn;t find any. Too much controversy and new agey nonsense to sift through (for me).

 

IME, a mystical practice that has an unbroken history and closely reflects ancient western (pre-roman) traditions, look into Tantric Hindu practices... Sanskrit is a very old version of the "Indo-european" language from which all of western european languages are derived. So, there is a linguistic, cultural and ethnic connection. Hindu beliefs have similarities with Ancient Celtic for example... So, the mentality of the hindus and much of the deities will be related and easily understandable by western europeans... I studied Tantric mysticism for this very reason, because I was seeking to practice the mystical tradition of my ancestors and this was the closest I could get... In the end Taoism was a better fit and alot faster in terms of my personal results...

Good luck...

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Unfortunately comparing with the Eastern "Mysticism ", Western Mysticism can't tell us any concrete steps at all .

A religious system without concrete steps towards god/God is really a mysticism .

 

Comparing with Taoist starting point from jing ,then qi.... to unifying with Tao/Wuji/pre-heavenly qi outside,

Taoist way is intricate , clear and every step provable . Buddhism has its ...But how about the Western one?

 

Maybe it is because there is an impassable abyss between Man and God in the Western legacy while in the East, there is no such an abyss . An individual can become god , or even close to God...Maybe it sounds arrogant , not humble enough , yet it is really the Chinese legacy for they discovered qi , and mastered the concrete steps of assimilating its highest form two thousands years ago .This is why Taoists dare to claim:

 

宇宙在乎手,

 

萬化生乎身

 

 

Even in Greek tradition , the gap between gods and Man is not so big.

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A lot of folks in here have nailed their intellectual history. IMHO, "A Dazzling Darkness: An Anthology of Western Mysticism" is the finest resource I've found if you're really in the mood for digging into the Western mystical tradition and ferreting out the parallels between East and West. There isn't a huge overlap, but the examples that exist are profound: Plotinus, Meister Eckhardt, Hildegard of Bingen, Thomas a Kempis, Julian of Norwich and others who, of course, were persecuted for heresy by the Catholic Church. Most of the western tradition maintained the centrality of a personal god, of course, but some of these mystics could be classified as pantheists (a very hip idea indeed).

 

http://www.amazon.com/Dazzling-Darkness-An...6481&sr=1-1

 

Used copies available for $0.01!!

 

For the purpose of putting the western mystical tradition within the context of the Western intellectual tradition as a whole, you can't beat "The Passion of the Western Mind," by Richard Tarnas.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Passion-Western-Mind...7253&sr=1-1

 

Then... :lol:

 

Pick up a copy of "A Buddhist History of the West," by David Loy, and let me know if Loy doesn't blow your socks off.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Buddhist-History-Wes...7506&sr=1-7

 

Regards,

B

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I met someone who knew someone who had trained in a druidic tradition and apparently had some pretty impressive powers...But the impression I got was that one had to apprentice with a master... so there ARE some good western systems out there. I personally didn;t find any. Too much controversy and new agey nonsense to sift through (for me).

 

 

 

What do you mean by "powers"? What sort of "powers" does a Taoist Mystic have?

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...persecuted for heresy by the Catholic Church.

 

Funny thing about the Catholic church is that it's nearly entirely composed of pagan magickal themes.

post-11664-1261110209_thumb.jpg

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What do you mean by "powers"? What sort of "powers" does a Taoist Mystic have?

I wasn't referring to Taoist mystics. The powers I was referring to were from the guy who trained with druids. He had healing powers...

Edited by fiveelementtao

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I wasn't referring to Taoist mystics. The powers I was referring to were from the guy who trained with druids. He had healing powers...

 

How did he demonstrate these powers?

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Hi Eviander,

The reason why Eastern Mysticism seems to be more powerful is that it comes from an unbroken spiritual and cultural heritage that stretches back to the stone age.... European culture and religion was destroyed by the time of the "middle ages" and replaced with Christianity. When the Roman Empire conquered Europe, it usually destroyed any pre-existing mystical traditions, then when Christian Rome sent out missionaries to outlying western Europe to convert "pagans", the Church would usually destroy or incorporate those mystical traditions. The inquisistion did much to destroy any lingering mystical traditions.. If you think about it, as a westerner, try and think as far back as you can in terms of western European history... You will probably not get further back than medieval times. The "dark ages" was the time that Europe was making the transition from pre-Roman paganism to post Roman Monotheistic Christianity.

 

In the East, however, in India, China and Tibet. Their cultural and spiritual history is still intact all the way back to the stone age. and their mystical sciences have an unbroken history and practice dating back to pre-history. Much of modern western stuff is mostly attempts at reconstructing the old ways from scant historical evidence and a little fantasy.. So, I believe that in the west we used to have alot of mystical traditions, but unfortunately most modern druid, wiccan etc... types of traditions are modern reinventions and do not accrately reflect the original sciences... There is certainly nothing wrong with reinventing the wheel... So, who's to say?

 

 

Hi Fiveelementtao,

 

While I don't have any problems with the general thrust of what you are saying I have to disagree on a couple of points.

 

The pagan Romans i.e. pre-Constantine, had no problems with other traditions, Egyptian, Greek and so on - which they respected and quite often appropriated for themselves (with some name changes). For instance the Egyptian religion and culture persisted right through the classical period and was only wiped out when things went Christian, I think about 4 - 5 th Century AD.

 

Most Western traditions try to trace their lineage back to ancient Europe (particularly Egypt and Mesopotamia where the oldest written records exists) and by this back to the late neolithic period and so on. Obviously if we accept the 'out of Africa' picture of man's development then we can all trace everything to the first homo sapiens who left Africa for the Middle East after the last Ice Age.

 

Once the Christian changed form being a minority mystical cult and became the mainstream and therefore part of the state then the oppression of non-Christians and heretics (often mystics) started. This intolerance is a feature of monotheism and is very odd for a religion of 'love thy neighbour' but well, most Christian even to this day can't see that contradiction. Now, there is no doubt that this happened but it is not unique to the West. In the East many mystical cults and minor religions were also persecuted so the question is, I suppose, was the persecution so intense in the West that it actually destroyed any transmission of teachings from the ancient world?

 

We know that the classical tradition was rescued by the Muslims and then reintroduced into the West following the crusades and by the Moors in Spain. The product of this was the renaissance a great flowering of art and science which effectively started the process which has led to the modern world. We know that 'renaissance men' like Da Vinci were interested in mysticism, it came with the territory so to speak (ignore Dan Brown on this one!). So did they receive teachings as part of some kind of extant tradition? Maybe. Perhaps the better question is why did the West go down the scientific empiricism route rather than the inner contemplation route.

 

The type of thinking that was to eventually produce Marx and others who cannot see any purpose in religion - and whose critique is principally aimed at what by then religion had become i.e. a system of social control with almost no mystical content.

 

In this context mysticism goes underground and disguises itself as something else not just because of persecution but also because of ridicule. While in the East it is recognised as valid and respected culturally. The other confusing thing is the number of bogus traditions, like Freemasonry which claim to be unbroken back to Egypt when clearly they are a 16-17th Century invention. So I agree with you there.

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How did he demonstrate these powers?

Ummm. by healing people.... I don't know I wasn't there.

Look, bro, if you have an honest question, I am happy to answer if I can. But, I sense you're looking to pick a fight. If anything I have said in the past was offensive or hurtful I apologize. I have no desire to fight with you...

 

Hi Fiveelementtao,

 

While I don't have any problems with the general thrust of what you are saying I have to disagree on a couple of points.

Your criticism is well taken. You make some good points. There is a distinction between the roman tolerance for egyptian and greek religions, because the Romans felt a kinship with those religions. While it is true that the Roman Empire was tolerant of many religions, they were also very intolerant of religions or practices that they felt were a threat to the State. This included many mystical traditions. In terms of British druids, the Roman army literally drove them screaming into the Sea. It is because of the Roman army that the Druids were destroyed...Then the Romans chopped down or burnt all of the druid sacred forests. Christianity merely took up where the pagan romans left off. IMO christianity was really just an extension of the Roman mindset. I believe that Christianity was instituted as the official religion because monotheism was a great method of unifying and controlling nations they sought to conquer.

So, I agree with what you have said. But the Romans also mercilessly destroyed many mystical traditions...

Edited by fiveelementtao

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Your criticism is well taken. You make some good points. There is a distinction between the roman tolerance for egyptian and greek religions, because the Romans felt a kinship with those religions. While it is true that the Roman Empire was tolerant of many religions, they were also very intolerant of religions or practices that they felt were a threat to the State. This included many mystical traditions. In terms of British druids, the Roman army literally drove them screaming into the Sea. It is because of the Roman army that the Druids were destroyed...Then the Romans chopped down or burnt all of the druid sacred forests. Christianity merely took up where the pagan romans left off. IMO christianity was really just an extension of the Roman mindset. I believe that Christianity was instituted as the official religion because monotheism was a great method of unifying and controlling nations they sought to conquer.

So, I agree with what you have said. But the Romans also mercilessly destroyed many mystical traditions...

 

 

I suppose the point about the Druids is that they were key to Celtic culture, particularly in matters of war and politics. The Romans had to destroy them in order to subjugate the Celts. Anyway you are right - they weren't too nice to the Phoenicians either.

 

The history of Europe since the fall of the Roman empire has been various attempts to recreate it - with the Roman Catholic church at the heart of this. The European Union being the latest version.

 

I suppose what we have to accept is that Western Mysticism is a kind of sporadic thing based on individual genius reinterpreting ancient ideas, rather than a long unbroken tradition. Maybe though, its not a bad thing for all that.

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I suppose what we have to accept is that Western Mysticism is a kind of sporadic thing based on individual genius reinterpreting ancient ideas, rather than a long unbroken tradition. Maybe though, its not a bad thing for all that.

 

I agree, sometimes what is needed is to reconfigure what is available to meet the present needs... Not bad at all...

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There is plenty of writings on western mysticism if one gets over the prejudice that people often display towards anything "Christian". One doesn't have to rely on circus masters (ala Bardon) or dubious historiography (Hermeticism generally) to be a mystic.

 

Indeed, I'd say that people who claim supernatural experiences cannot by definition be "mystics". Mysticism involves a completely naked view of the world, not a retreat from it into personal fantasy.

 

That aside, Meister Eckhart, The Cloud of the Unknowing and Julian of Norwich are my personal favourites. (There are many other besides).

 

Meister Eckhart is up there with the best Zen philosophers with his ideas about God being "pregnant with nothingness"; the Cloud of Unknowing contains practical instruction on how the pierce the Cloud of Unknowing with arrows of love; and Julian of Norwich talks Christ the Mother and her views on the Trinity (on holding something no bigger than a hazelnut Julian said: "In this little thing, I saw three properties. The first is that God made it. The second is that God loves it. The third is that God keeps it."

 

 

And who can forget St Francis' Prayer (which along with his Canticle to Brother Sun and Sister Moon) is pure mysticism distilled into poetic metre:

 

LORD, make us instruments of Your peace.

 

Where there is hatred, let us sow love;

Where there is injury, pardon;

Where there is discord, union;

Where there is doubt, faith;

Where there is despair, hope;

Where there is darkness, light;

Where there is sadness, joy.

 

O Divine Master, grant that we may not seek to much

 

to be consoled as to console;

to be understood as to understand;

to be loved as to love.

 

For it is in giving that we receive;

 

it is in pardoning that we are pardoned;

and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

 

Amen

 

 

If you seek to live out that prayer all the days of your life, then you truly are a mystic.

 

Anyway enough said.

 

Merry Xmas all.

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Hi altiora,

 

Yes you are right and nothing I have said is against Christian Mysticism - in fact I studied under a Christian teacher for many years. Most if not all Christian mystics have been subject to either persecution or some kind of doctrinal censorship by the Church I think.

 

A.

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I believe that Western esotericists like myself benefit dramatically by getting an understanding of Eastern thought in regards to non-dualism, the Self (or not-Self if you favor Buddhist thought), mindfulness, emptiness, the Tao, etc. because a lot of Western esoterics is extremely left brained (Crowley's..."the method of science, the goal of religion) and, for lack of a better term...as dry as dust.

 

I have found that hermetic practice can benefit dramatically from a bhatki attitude of devotion to the God (Adonai, YHVH, Jehova in the Hermetic Qabalistic tradition) along with a view of the interpenetrating immanence and transcendence of the Divine who is ultimately beyond all description in that He/She/It is truly No-Thing. Qabalistic mantras formed by using various divine names such as those attributed to various Sephiroth on the Tree of Life are very powerful. Using the Tarot as mandalas of transformation is very, very effective in that the cards of the Major Arcana are powerfully representitive of the process of individuation/self-realization/enlightenment.

 

Many western magicians poo-poo mysticism as if they aren't the yin and yang of the one Great Work. Magick is theurgy that helps the magician to bring to divine down to earth thus transforming the personality of the magician who wishes to be "in the world but not of it" while mysticism is the devotional connection to the Divine that transforms the ego to make a suitable subordinate tool of the Self. Magick without mysticism creates the tremendous ego inflation and self-destruction that all can see in folks like Crowley and that I have seen amongst ceremonial magicians who bicker and battle like spiritual children and whose cultivation shows so dimly in demonstrated thought and action as to seem non-existant. :(

 

 

Sundragon

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I am not doubting the fact that most people on this forum probably follow many eastern esoteric and mystical traditions..that being Taoist and Buddhist primarily (I have not seen to many following Hindu but I might be wrong). Anyways..I have for reasons unknown to me been slowly dragged towards the eastern mysticism as opposed to the western mysticism which I was initially interested in. Now I am not trying to start another which is better 'this' or 'that' thread, but I would like peoples opinions on the two branches of mysticism and which is ultimately more complete and older in practice.

 

The one thing that I have read from hermetical writings claiming that the knowledge of the pharaohs, which is supposedly passed on from the times of Atlantis is in fact superior to any form of eastern mysticism and the level of illumination achieved by the pharaoh priests is at a higher cosmic state of enlightenment than the eastern traditions have achieved.

 

Now it is possible for those with little knowledge on the two to say they are the same or they are simply 'one'. But this is not true..since western mysticism expounds upon the astral plane and being born into that plane instead of focusing on reincarnation ect..which is truly a big difference for serious initiates into any tradition.

 

All forms of mysticism are fundamentally the same, IMO. They are all efforts of the human mind to comprehend and merge with the ineffable. All have their own flavor based on ethnology, sociology, culture, geography, and so on. When you let all of the paths and practices and concepts and rituals fall away, the same truth remains.

 

I was never much interested in Western mysticism but after studying the works of Anthony Demello, I believe that the Catholic mystical tradition has validity. He was undoubtedly enlightened, at least as far as my definition is concerned, and trained in the Jesuit tradition. Although he was born in India and was undoubtedly influenced by the Hindu faith. Learning this helped me to really and deeply respect the Jesuit tradition, probably for the first time in my life. Ironically, I soon found out that Joseph Ratzinger (who some of you will recognize is currently pope) condemned Demello's writings as heretical while holding the position of Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith for the church. Please note that the CDF is the modern name for the office that was original called the Holy Office of the Inquisition.

 

Here is a quotation from his declaration -

 

"But already in certain passages in [his] early works and to a greater degree in his later publications, one notices a progressive distancing from the essential contents of the Christian faith. ... With the present Notification, in order to protect the good of the Christian faithful, this Congregation declares that the above-mentioned positions are incompatible with the Catholic faith and can cause grave harm"

 

And so it goes....

 

Individuals have the hope of awakening, not institutions.

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but I guess you can ask- who is more powerful? The person who stays as far away from temptation as possible, or the person who is surrounded by it but maintains the integrity of what he or she is trying to accomplish?

 

Good cases can be made for both sides of the argument.

 

this is something i often wonder and i think different systems are better suited for different individuals

 

 

I am surprised freemasonry and rosicrucianism discussions have not appeared more on this thread. maybe some masons or rosicrucians with experience with the eastern traditions could chime in.......Darin? Jedi777?

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The other confusing thing is the number of bogus traditions, like Freemasonry which claim to be unbroken back to Egypt when clearly they are a 16-17th Century invention. So I agree with you there.

 

ok maybe freemasonry does not in fact go back to ancient egypt...i would not know, but officially most masons do not claim that they do go back to egypt. And even if they do not I think its a bit harsh to say masonry is a bogus tradition. how can you be sure of this?

 

 

an interesting and not often discussed aspect of masonry from the former supreme commander of the southern jurisdiction of the scottish rite.......

 

 

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ok maybe freemasonry does not in fact go back to ancient egypt...i would not know, but officially most masons do not claim that they do go back to egypt. And even if they do not I think its a bit harsh to say masonry is a bogus tradition. how can you be sure of this?

 

 

an interesting and not often discussed aspect of masonry from the former supreme commander of the southern jurisdiction of the scottish rite.......

 

 

 

There may be merit in Freemasonry - and not being one I suppose I am not in a position to say one way or the other. I was certainly under the impression that there is a claim to a link back to Hiram and also Imhotep which I do think are bogus. I think this because I have been told about some of the texts used which purport to be Egyptian but which bear all the hallmarks of bad 19 century translations probably by Wallis Budge.

 

Many people, including myself are interested in Egypt and may practice based on their religion but without some kind of proof cannot claim a lineage. Its clear to me at any rate that the wisdom and knowledge from then was not lost but was held by early alchemists and hermeticists e.g. Hermes Trismegistus and so on and then became part of the undercurrent of western mysticism - but not I think Freemasonry.

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