celibacy and body changes

[Pietro]

For what I know, when a man is fully celibate; when he does not even warm up the energy at all; then various things can happen. One of them is that the body may go back to a pre-adolescent (or maybe even pre-puberal) stage. The testicles becoming smaller. The glands inside the sack having the possibility to re-enter in the body. Even the penis might become smaller.

 

So much for using those techniques to beat the macho challenge ;-).

 

I know all this because it was told to me long time ago, in a non formal way, as part of a conversation. We were discussing how many men are interested in celibacy, but few knew (or are willing) to bring it to this next phase. Phase which is, to my understanding, the natural outcome of this practice.

 

Does anybody knows more. Spare me the alarmist cry, tell me instead which texts you know off that mention this. Even passingly. Both authentic taoists texts (possibly translated) or modern instructions books from western taoists teachers.

 

Many thanks,

Pietro

[voidisyinyang]

Read "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" by Charles Luk. The focus of the book is on celibacy and the effects it has for energy work.

 

For what I know, when a man is fully celibate; when he does not even warm up the energy at all; then various things can happen. One of them is that the body may go back to a pre-adolescent (or maybe even pre-puberal) stage. The testicles becoming smaller. The glands inside the sack having the possibility to re-enter in the body. Even the penis might become smaller.

 

So much for using those techniques to beat the macho challenge ;-).

 

I know all this because it was told to me long time ago, in a non formal way, as part of a conversation. We were discussing how many men are interested in celibacy, but few knew (or are willing) to bring it to this next phase. Phase which is, to my understanding, the natural outcome of this practice.

 

Does anybody knows more. Spare me the alarmist cry, tell me instead which texts you know off that mention this. Even passingly. Both authentic taoists texts (possibly translated) or modern instructions books from western taoists teachers.

 

Many thanks,

Pietro

[zazaza]

the theory behind "men who masturbate now and then have less chance for prostate cancer",

is because when the prostate gets squeezed there is more blood circulation there...

so things get refreshed.

Edited December 18, 2009 by zazaza

[voidisyinyang]

Sex sells -- it's just Western commodity fetish.

 

Ionization is meditation.

[NeiChuan]

Hm but im curious.. If one does the microcosmic orbit isen't he making use of this extra energy? And might it Stop these body changes?

[Gerard]

Sorry but whatever happens to an Asian person (way more Yin than a Westerner) is not going to happen to a Westerner in terms of physiology. Forget about the testicles re-entering the body. It doesn't work.

 

Btw, testicle shrinkage is quite common Asian men, more than you think. So imagine what would happen if they become celibate and decide to pursue the spiritual path.

[Pietro]

Sorry but whatever happens to an Asian person (way more Yin than a Westerner) is not going to happen to a Westerner in terms of physiology. Forget about the testicles re-entering the body. It doesn't work.

 

Btw, testicle shrinkage is quite common Asian men, more than you think. So imagine what would happen if they become celibate and decide to pursue the spiritual path.

 

Or maybe not.

I had the testicles being able to reenter my body about 10 years ago.

 

Now, can yopu please share more, if you know. :-) Thanks.

 

zaza, yeah we know about that. There are other ways to squeeze the prostate. Also when you dissolve, you should dissolve the prostate galnd. This helps (without physically squeezing)

 

Drew, what is ionization? And why do you mention it in this thread?

 

NeiChuan, running the microcosmic will not stop those changes from happening. The mc runs all the time. Doing it consciously just makes it easier to be celibate.

[宁]

Ionization is meditation.

 

I would say some forms of meditation use the ionization process, it's a more balanced statement.

 

@Pietro,

i don't think retention and celibacy are the same thing. Celibacy can do what you say, yet i think this happens only if the jing qi is polarized to a new, upward direction, thru meditation, chanting, praying. Regarding retention, i remember that the process is called 'the wisdom of the jade stalk' - the penis can grow big or shrink, adapting everytime to the lady's moon grotto - it's an ability related to this particular gongfu...

What you describe - the shriking process - is related to the phase of Xiantian in alchemy practice... pretty far from where we are at the moment...

 

Yet it if happens outside of alchemy practice, i would say it's un-natural and a sign of early aging... When the hormonal levels drop down, all the systems of the body follow... this is why masters say that yin only develops in the presence of the yang, and vice-versa.

[Pietro]

Hi Little1

 

I would say some forms of meditation use the ionization process, it's a more balanced statement.

It's that an inside joke

 

i don't think retention and celibacy are the same thing.

How do you distinguish retention from celibacy? It looks like from your description you call celibacy when the energy is kept cold, and retention when you warm it, but don't shoot (RJ style).

 

Yes, I am aware that if you work with warm energy this might lead to making your jewels bigger. Although I never knew there were practices to change it on command

 

What you describe - the shriking process - is related to the phase of Xiantian in alchemy practice...

Thanks, where can I get more info about it?

 

Yet it if happens outside of alchemy practice, i would say it's un-natural and a sign of early aging... When the hormonal levels drop down, all the systems of the body follow... this is why masters say that yin only develops in the presence of the yang, and vice-versa.

Let's rephrase this: the alchemical practice can lead to it; being ill can also lead to it. There might be other situations that we are not aware of that can lead to that too (nature? internalized alchemical process? other process all together? being a freak?).

Like when women stop menstruating, they can do it because of spiritual reasons, of illness, but also for a bunch of other reasons. (Like being very focused into something).

[宁]

The Xiantian phase of the practice is described more in the upper Kan and Li levels, if you want to take M Chia's/ Winn's system as a refference point. I also found fascinating descriptions in other daoist schools... It's the reversion process, from the manifesting, into the un-manifest - i'm sure you have a suficiently good idea to get a search going on in that direction. Whatever I can say is only regarding my thoughts about it, and I'm sure they aren't entirely correct, so I try to avoid posting them publicly.

 

On the other hand, you pretty hit the nail on the head regarding the hormonal level training... Again, a topic of a fascinating research. I'm still fuzzy about the concept, yet I think I can offer you a nice lead on it: it offers a thorough view on the relationship btween sexuality and energetics and hormonal level training - you'll find it in the Nexus Magazine, I don't know the exact number issue, it has been recently published in my country also, and i suspect you can find it on the internet also. Oh, here it is: http://www.nexusmagazine.eu/nx14_3.html The title is Neurochemistry and Sex. Darn good read!

[Pietro]

The Xiantian phase of the practice is described more in the upper Kan and Li levels, if you want to take M Chia's/ Winn's system as a refference point.

Thanks.

You mean the Greatest K&L, isn't it?

I also found fascinating descriptions in other daoist schools... It's the reversion process, from the manifesting, into the un-manifest - i'm sure you have a suficiently good idea to get a search going on in that direction. Whatever I can say is only regarding my thoughts about it, and I'm sure they aren't entirely correct, so I try to avoid posting them publicly.

That's very considered. Also interesting that you refer to other Daoist schools. Feel free to PM me if you wish to share more that you can't share publicly.

 

On the other hand, you pretty hit the nail on the head regarding the hormonal level training... Again, a topic of a fascinating research. I'm still fuzzy about the concept, yet I think I can offer you a nice lead on it: it offers a thorough view on the relationship btween sexuality and energetics and hormonal level training - you'll find it in the Nexus Magazine, I don't know the exact number issue, it has been recently published in my country also, and i suspect you can find it on the internet also. Oh, here it is: <a href="http://www.nexusmagazine.eu/nx14_3.html" target="_blank">http://www.nexusmagazine.eu/nx14_3.html</a> The title is Neurochemistry and Sex. Darn good read!

 

I went to the link, but the article can't be read from there. In any case I read :

The Alchemy of Love and Lust from Theresa L. Crenshaw which should contain pretty much an updated summary of the western medicine knowledge on the topic for the lay reader. If you have access to the article, can you look up what are the bibliographic references it uses?

[宁]

http://www.health-science-spirit.com/heal-sex.html

I found the article on another site. This is it. Gold. I think it has the refferences also, didn't have time to check.

Re Xiantian levels of practice, we can encounter it in our daily life frequently: Virgins, and Pregnant/Nursing women. I think Shen laoshi has on his website made by Ken a pretty good description of the impact of alchemy practice on persons that are already in the Xiantian phase, due to physiological condition - in respect to Nursing women.

If my calculations are correct, this has the potential of turning everything we know about this subject... to a new fresh direction.

I looked into M Chia's material and asked my teacher about it, it seems there is a good deal about it in his system also, regarding the passage to Xiantian, related to a long period of celibacy... If i remember correctly, the first stage is the 100 days of avoiding sexual stimulation... Then the 1000 day gate. And so on. It's pretty interesting that these informations have been available thru workshops and seminars - thru bits and pieces scattered here and there, where the interest was serious, good pointers to further a personal research...

Best of luck - my gues is that when you will get it, the world of retention/celibacy practicioners would be a much safer, pure and safer place I'll drink to that!

[Pietro]

http://www.health-science-spirit.com/heal-sex.html

I found the article on another site. This is it. Gold. I think it has the refferences also, didn't have time to check.

Re Xiantian levels of practice, we can encounter it in our daily life frequently: Virgins, and Pregnant/Nursing women. I think Shen laoshi has on his website made by Ken a pretty good description of the impact of alchemy practice on persons that are already in the Xiantian phase, due to physiological condition - in respect to Nursing women.

If my calculations are correct, this has the potential of turning everything we know about this subject... to a new fresh direction.

I looked into M Chia's material and asked my teacher about it, it seems there is a good deal about it in his system also, regarding the passage to Xiantian, related to a long period of celibacy... If i remember correctly, the first stage is the 100 days of avoiding sexual stimulation... Then the 1000 day gate. And so on. It's pretty interesting that these informations have been available thru workshops and seminars - thru bits and pieces scattered here and there, where the interest was serious, good pointers to further a personal research...

Best of luck - my gues is that when you will get it, the world of retention/celibacy practicioners would be a much safer, pure and safer place I'll drink to that!

 

And I'll buy you the beer!

 

Thanks I'll dig all this. I open the link, it contains tables and info. Cool stuff, not newage speak.

 

Talk to you later.

 

Cheers!

Pietro

[宁]

My teacher told me that high level healing love is about chastity - can you imagine, Chastity...

[voidisyinyang]

Ionization works through the FEMALE climax -- the vagus nerve -- while male sex (ejaculation) increases STRESS -- the sympathetic nervous system. This is detailed by Professor Robert Sapolsky's books -- MonkeyLuv and Trouble with Testosterone.

 

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/content/a...endo;143/7/2534

[bindo]

Retention, abstinence, and celibacy are all different.

 

retention is when you have sex/masturbate without losing the precious fluid.

 

Abstinence is not giving in to the sex urge for a, more or less, short period of time ( 30 days, 100 days, 1 year, etc.) but usually still having the normal sex urge, sexual thoughts and so on. Someone may practice abstinence to achieve a particular result. For example, to build up the body's energy for advancement in one's chi kung practice. Or, one may wait until being married before having sex.

 

Abstinence is the first step towards celibacy and may last many years if celibacy is the goal.

 

Celibacy - most people consider long periods of abstinence as celibacy. But true celibacy involves complete rejection of the sex urge and all sexual thoughts until one is no longer a puppet in nature's machinery.

 

Someone who chooses to be celibate may see the sex impulse as something animalistic, of the lower consciousness, and preventing one's opportunity for complete spiritual fullfillment.

 

True celibacy is a life long vow.

[Pietro]

Retention, abstinence, and celibacy are all different.

 

retention is when you have sex/masturbate without losing the precious fluid.

 

Abstinence is not giving in to the sex urge for a, more or less, short period of time ( 30 days, 100 days, 1 year, etc.) but usually still having the normal sex urge, sexual thoughts and so on. Someone may practice abstinence to achieve a particular result. For example, to build up the body's energy for advancement in one's chi kung practice. Or, one may wait until being married before having sex.

 

Abstinence is the first step towards celibacy and may last many years if celibacy is the goal.

 

Celibacy - most people consider long periods of abstinence as celibacy. But true celibacy involves complete rejection of the sex urge and all sexual thoughts until one is no longer a puppet in nature's machinery.

 

Someone who chooses to be celibate may see the sex impulse as something animalistic, of the lower consciousness, and preventing one's opportunity for complete spiritual fullfillment.

 

True celibacy is a life long vow.

 

 

Thanks,

so would chastity be another name for abstinence?

 

Also, I like the clarity of this division, although I suspect it hides part of the complexity that reality has. In other words different people in different traditions use words in slightly different ways.

 

I remember just on this site Lin explaining how just the fact of calling a practice "retention" was already setting it up for failing. "If you are retaining, you will release.". Somehow words matters.

 

I think you really hit the nail in the head when you speak about celibacy as a lifelong vow. I think at Gandhi, for example.

 

But tell me, am I right that this clear cut division comes from the Hindu tradition. And that Daoism might not use it so much (although of course there will be people doing "retention", "abstinence" and celibacy, although they might not call it in that way.

 

 

Drew, I will read the paper before asking more.

Little1, same, same

 

Yours,

Pietro

[bindo]

These definitions are my own, based on experience. But, you would be correct in suggesting a Hindu influence.

 

People tend to use these terms rather loosely, especially westerners, so I would suspect there are differences based on culture and there's also the problem of translation from one language to another.

 

I think one can have sex and still be "chaste". It's just sex based on love for one's spouse. Without perversion,(very "vanilla")pure, God's love's expressed through two people and shared with one another,

not dressing provocatively, etc.

[Non]

These definitions are my own, based on experience. But, you would be correct in suggesting a Hindu influence.

 

People tend to use these terms rather loosely, especially westerners, so I would suspect there are differences based on culture and there's also the problem of translation from one language to another.

 

I think one can have sex and still be "chaste". It's just sex based on love for one's spouse. Without perversion,(very "vanilla")pure, God's love's expressed through two people and shared with one another,

not dressing provocatively, etc.

 

 

Well, Taoist Yoga, the book... is about celibacy. But that doesn't mean, without "stimulation". Whatever that means in the book. There are different kinds of celibacy. Avoiding all sexual thoughts, and urges, even erections.

 

Personally.. I think if anyone is having an erection, it is sexual, doesn't matter if there are no thoughts of "sexual intercourse". The human being is a sexual being, period. It is always sexual.

 

So in Taoist Yoga.. the author recommends that old men can stimulate their penis by hand, in order to do the "fourfold breathing" practice which is like a microcosmic orbit practice, because they are low in jing or whatever, enough so that it's harder to get an erection easily.

 

It even says that if one does not experience "arousal" for a considerable time, "it shows that the 'generative force' is exhausted; if it is not fully restored vitality will come to an end and death is not far off." But that may be in regards to old men?

 

So there you have it...

 

So I'm guessing the book talks more about celibacy in the form that one has kept from ejaculating for a considerable amount of time.. and that one is not 'lustful'.

Edited December 19, 2009 by Non

[voidisyinyang]

"Taoist Yoga" very clearly differentiates different types of energy and the focus is NEVER on sex unless it's about LOSS of energy as generative fluid. The intention is what is important behind the energy. The intention being where the electromagnetic energy is focused in the body. The focus should be in the heart or in the third eye.

 

I've known several people who project their own mental weakness onto Taoist Yoga. The book consciously addresses the issue of celibacy as ionization or purification -- not just retention. This is where the West goes wrong.

 

The full-lotus REVERSES the damage of people having their electromagnetic subconscious focus stuck in the lower chakras due to previous ejaculation.

 

Obviously modern culture promotes male ejaculation -- "sex sells." So Taoist Yoga is a very radical book.

 

So if people want to fixate on sex then they are not meditating. Obviously we can't tell people what to think -- but the electromagnetic energy will re-wire their brains -- simply through the natural resonance of complementary opposites. You just sit in full-lotus.

 

It's easy.

 

Well, Taoist Yoga, the book... is about celibacy. But that doesn't mean, without "stimulation". Whatever that means in the book. There are different kinds of celibacy. Avoiding all sexual thoughts, and urges, even erections.

 

Personally.. I think if anyone is having an erection, it is sexual, doesn't matter if there are no thoughts of "sexual intercourse". The human being is a sexual being, period. It is always sexual.

 

So in Taoist Yoga.. the author recommends that old men can stimulate their penis by hand, in order to do the "fourfold breathing" practice which is like a microcosmic orbit practice.

 

It even says that if one does not experience "arousal" for a considerable time, "it shows that the 'generative force' is exhausted; if it is not fully restored vitality will come to an end and death is not far off."

 

So there you have it...

 

So I'm guessing the book talks more about celibacy in the form that one has kept from ejaculating for a considerable amount of time.. and that one is not 'lustful'.

[宁]

Personally.. I think if anyone is having an erection, it is sexual, doesn't matter if there are no thoughts of "sexual intercourse". The human being is a sexual being, period. It is always sexual.

 

Ok, let's start all over again... and let's try dropping what we think we know, and think like a child.

 

'Morning wood' is different. This is the kind of energy that is suitable in alchemy.

No sexual thoughts or feelings, the organs activate from within their own inner power.

I use this image because we are more aquainted to it...

 

Celibacy and chastity doesn't mean to refrain from sexual energy - it's the opposite.

Without sexual energy, there is no alchemy, and we need that alot, tons of it.

In an interview in Switzerland, M Chia was asked who are the people that work most with their sexual energy. Re replied - 'Monks, because they don't have sex to consume it, so they really need to find a way to deal with it, draw it upwards, thru prayer, chanting and meditation...'

 

When the mind is pure, the heart is pure, the body is clean, then the JingQi is in an optimum state.

It's first class fuel for cultivation.

 

Chastity, oh chastity...

Thomas of Aquino is said to have asked God: please make me a chaste person, but not now.

[Non]

Ok, let's start all over again... and let's try dropping what we think we know, and think like a child.

 

'Morning wood' is different. This is the kind of energy that is suitable in alchemy.

No sexual thoughts or feelings, the organs activate from within their own inner power.

I use this image because we are more aquainted to it...

 

Celibacy and chastity doesn't mean to refrain from sexual energy - it's the opposite.

Without sexual energy, there is no alchemy, and we need that alot, tons of it.

In an interview in Switzerland, M Chia was asked who are the people that work most with their sexual energy. Re replied - 'Monks, because they don't have sex to consume it, so they really need to find a way to deal with it, draw it upwards, thru prayer, chanting and meditation...'

 

When the mind is pure, the heart is pure, the body is clean, then the JingQi is in an optimum state.

It's first class fuel for cultivation.

 

Chastity, oh chastity...

Thomas of Aquino is said to have asked God: please make me a chaste person, but not now.

 

 

Uhm, I get a morning wood because I need to urinate and my penis feels tingles, and feels stimulated. it feels PLEASURABLE, like pulsation, like orgasm is pulsation (minus the ejaculation).

 

We really have to see just what sexuality is. What is it's REAL true purpose? If it's just pleasure, then why can't we just have orgasms, without having to ejaculate? It's just like someone rubbing and massaging a point on your skin until it becomes extremely pleasurable and tingles because the nerves are becoming sensitive and being stimulated. Now on the penis, there are nerves which are VERY sensitive, and are connected to the ejaculation pump. It can be very hard to keep that orgasm (pulsation) in the area of the penis without ejaculating because of this. And to make the pulsation go elsewhere the other parts of the body also have to become as sensitive as the penis to be able to carry that same pulsation.

 

So then really, what do you refer to as "sexual energy"? Orgasmic pulsation? Or "sexual intercourse"....

 

So then.. the pleasurable feeling that you get from a morning wood, is it orgasmic energy, or is it SEXUAL energy (which is always about intercourse), or is sexual energy more than that?

Edited December 19, 2009 by Non

[gendao]

Edited December 20, 2009 by vortex

[Non]

Lol, amazing! So, Asian and Western men are 2 entirely biologically-different species? Have you informed the medical establishment of this yet? Cuz they better start using 2 different textbooks on us, then!

 

Anyhow, what I've noticed so far is that abstinence alone does not eliminate urges...

However, abstinence with cultivation seems to do a pretty good job of sublimating those urges away (at least until you are directly presented with female opportunities). So, I could see how monks cultivating in temples with no women around could attain "true" celibacy.

 

As far as penis reactions....according to Taoist Yoga:

A "non lust-induced" erection is actually a good sign that your dantian is getting filled and the qi is overflowing into your penis.

(Much) later on though, your penis IS supposed to retract back to your babyhood state.Now, I don't know if that reaction is permanent, or if it has actually happened in people, though?

 

However, it's been said that Buddha's dick became withdrawn too:So, I guess it MAY be possible with very high attainment...but the chances of any of us reaching such a level are pretty slim, methinks?

 

lol. "buddha's dick..."

 

anyway... I think... a person trying to be celibate in this society is VERY hard. I think the people who have attained "true" celibacy, have had the right environment or surroundings that were enabled them to be so, if not, a tremendous internal state to allow that. Right now in these days, in this society, and the way our bodies are now, it can be very hard, and may take longer, and will be harder for us.

 

If you want to be truly celibate, I'd say the only way to do this is to surround yourselves with LIKE people, and in a supportive environment, like a temple, or perhaps... a cave... also... perhaps might even need to proactively make yourself disgusted with sex, build up a STRONG willpower for it, or see absolutely no meaning to it. You're fighting instinct in a way. Though, I dont think it's unnatural to be celibate for a time, though I think it's a stretch to be celibate for life. Animals are quite celibate themselves, until they find a mate. They don't wack off I think. Well maybe monkeys do.. but still they don't usually do it too much like humans may as they're more connected with their bodies than humans are with themselves, to really know what's good and what isn't.

 

Right??

 

also... them monkeys probably find it easier to find sex, plus they find a need to 'compete' for it as well.. and the sexual practices are different from humans. to us some of it looks like rape, co-ercion or non consensual... if u know what I mean.. so it's not like they could have that much of a problem getting sex like some humans with social anxiety do...

[Gerard]

Lol, amazing! So, Asian and Western men are 2 entirely biologically-different species? Have you informed the medical establishment of this yet? Cuz they better start using 2 different textbooks on us, then!

 

Yin and Yang and the ability to read below the surface.

 

 

As far as penis reactions....according to Taoist Yoga:

A "non lust-induced" erection is actually a good sign that your dantian is getting filled and the qi is overflowing into your penis.

(Much) later on though, your penis IS supposed to retract back to your babyhood state.Now, I don't know if that reaction is permanent...or if it has even actually happened in people, though?

 

Have you experienced this yourself? If not, be quiet and don't give an opinion about a matter that you ignore.