Meditation driving me nuts

[Hyrdo]

Focus on the FEEL of the flow of the air at your nostrils. Following the flow thru your body is more of a chi kung practice imo.

 

I havnt been breathing threw my nose. I know every thing seem to say to but i find i have to consciously keep from breathing from my mouth and i figured the less i have to worry about the better.

 

I just got done doin a 13 min session and i find no matter how i sit somthin is going to go asleep, mostly my right leg. I have very large veins (not varicous, yet anyway) that seem to sit higher on the surface than most peoples so i think thats why. I didnt even notice this time tho. As a kid I was told that could be back if too long soo ima look into that.

[fiveelementtao]

Meditation is not about "Peace of Mind" that is a western oversimplification. It is the RESULT of discipline.

Hyrdo... save yourself some time... Find a teacher.... IF you are serious about learning meditation, you can find the resources to find a teacher. Don't do it alone. It is not necessary...

 

IME, what many westerners misunderstand about meditation is that it is not an instant, magic fix. We in the west have unrealistic expectations about the immediate results of meditation. IMO in the western (especially American) mindset, this is based on a basic misunderstanding of meditation combined with a pathological desire to escape... I have never thought of meditation as a way to "still the mind" "Be at peace" etc... My teachers both yogic and taoist never stressed passive meditation. There was always a task. Whether it be just to observe the breath, count the breath etc.... Many times there was a mudra involved or a task of mudra combined with guiding the breath into different directions etc.. There was always a task... The task occupied my mind, while the energetic result of the task fed my spirit. And it was always understood that the first result of any meditation was that the unconscious, the ego, internal resistance would ALWAYS kick in and try to sabotage the process...This was expected.

 

IME, Meditation is an art for warriors. It is not an exercise in escape or passivity. It is a process of facing oneself and one's limitations. For me, the greatest challenge is to be confronted with myself and NOT react. This is the meditation. This, for me is the greatest benefit. Because, what I gain from that is that during my day, I am confronted with situations where my lower nature wants to react and meditation gives me the ability to act from discipline. So, when I hear people complain about not being able to meditate because their ego is kicking in and making it diffiucult, I say. Of course! You're just starting to learn how to meditate. This is the first step. If you don't bump into yourself, something is wrong.

 

When I hear people talk about wanting to be free of their ego what I hear is that they really want to be free of their self judgment. This is different than normal ego. The ego is a necessary tool. But when the spirit has been weakened or when we have been raised in a dysfunctional home or oppressive society, the ego, in an attempt to fill the void of a weak spirit becomes bloated and then becomes an internal abuser and we are filled with self-hatred and self-judgment and we seek escape from our torment. It is no accident that there are many young people on this forum who are very interested in Taoism and spirituality and ALSO drug users. This is a totally modern western phenomenon and attests to a basic misunderstanding of spiritual disciplines. In the East, it was understood that if you wanted to be a spiritual practitioner, you couldn't rely on drugs. In native cultures that RARELY use drugs, there is always a purification process and rituals for protection, because they know that drugs harm the body. We use drugs without understanding the harm they cause our bodies and our spirits... We think that meditation is like a drug. We meditate and have difficulty, so we seek stronger measure and want to use drugs to facilitate a spiritual experience. We seek escape from our internal abuser, our ego... IME, the only way ot gain the peace we seek is through the warrior discipline of meditation, not the escape of drugs.

 

It is helpful to find a teacher... Meditation is similar to going to the gym, you understand that it will take dedication and you expect to experience resistance. You also understand that you will get stronger if you practice consistently and it will get easier. Mediators are warriors learning discipline. Taking drugs takes no discipline. It is completely passive.It erodes your strength of mind and makes one spiritually weak.

If you want peace in your meditations, I suggest finding a teacher who has been in your shoes and can guide you. Most on this forum giving advice also have learned from teachers. No one whom I have met who had success in their spiritual path, did it alone. They all had teachers....

[JustARandomPanda]

Focus on the FEEL of the flow of the air at your nostrils. Following the flow thru your body is more of a chi kung practice imo.

 

For those who can do this - more power to you. However whenever I do this - focus on the FEEL of the airflow at my nostrils - my eyes involuntarily also roll down to lock on there. Which ALWAYS ends up giving me very painful headaches and eyestrain. I've spent months trying to break this seemingly stubborn involuntary habit to no avail. I've grown tired of fighting it. I tossed in the towel. Focusing on the breath is not for me and I certainly don't consider it THE "foundation" practice. It's just a very popular one.

 

The only thing foundational imo is the act of concentration on a single point itself. It probably doesn't matter what one focuses one-pointedly on so long as you find a method that allows you to do so without debilitating head pain. I got the toe thing from a Bodhri book. Yes...the White Skeleton is available as a pdf but Bodhri also has a book you can get at Amazon - 25 Doors to Meditation - and it's chock full of meditation techniques - of which White Skeleton and the left big toe (probably because that accesses the right side, non-analytical side of the brain) are a part of it.

 

Anyhoo...I'm having success with left big toe concentration like I never did with the breath.

[Hyrdo]

Damn Zazaza, that quote you linked by Nisargadatta has me considering even more what i had been considering.

Atm i play a online game with friends quite alot. They got me to start playing agian and would hate if I quit playing so thats been the main reason for me continuing(tho i find it plenty enjoyable).

 

That quote has me feeling like i haven't been putting out nearly enough effort. hmm

 

fiveelementtao, you make alot of assumptions. Many of them probably right lol.

After reading all that you got me wanting to discipline myself, eat right and exercise.

I'd have to get a job before i could eat right tho...Sadly all i see from those are desires...

[Capital]

Consider this: your mind spiraling out of control is natural, because control is an illusion. The same is true of your body. You can try not to feel the pain or the itch, but that doesn't mean it isn't there, behind a flimsy barrier. You must accept the total lack of control, through experiencing it again and again, in every moment. One day, I hope, the barriers will be gone, and that's when you'll find simplicity in meditation. Until then, there's nothing to go for, because the chaos will only take shape into order in it's own chaotic fashion. You can watch it do it's thing, if you want, but you'll only get in the way if you try to help, as long as you have barriers stopping you from feeling the truth.

[zazaza]

Damn Zazaza, that quote you linked by Nisargadatta has me considering even more what i had been considering.

Atm i play a online game with friends quite alot. They got me to start playing agian and would hate if I quit playing so thats been the main reason for me continuing(tho i find it plenty enjoyable).

 

That quote has me feeling like i haven't been putting out nearly enough effort. hmm

trying to keep ourselves entertained costs a lot more effort than just "letting go" (by entering the meditative state)

not doing is a lot more pleasurable than doing pleasurable things.

 

it is very strange how being meditative seems so hard and boring,

when it is the exact opposite. i believe the fear of letting go is at the basis

of that false idea about the meditative state.

 

In losing, much is gained,

and in gaining, much is lost.

 

About playing games and any other kind of entertainment:

 

Question to nisargadatta: How does one reach the Supreme State?

Answer by nisargadatta: By renouncing all lesser desires. As long as you are pleased

with the lesser, you cannot have the highest. Whatever pleases

you, keeps you back. Until you realize the unsatisfactoriness of

everything, its transiency and limitation, and collect your ener-

gies in one great longing, even the first step is not made. On the

other hand, the integrity of the desire for the Supreme is by itself

a call from the Supreme. Nothing, physical or mental, can give

you freedom. You are free once you understand that your bon-

dage is of your own making and you cease forging the chains

that bind you.

Edited December 18, 2009 by zazaza

[voidisyinyang]

Hydro just repeat in your head "I-I-I-I-I" over and over. Every thought in your head comes from your I-thought. Whenever a thought arrives immediately think WHO is thinking this thought -- and then repeat the I-I-I over again. Keep doing that until the I-thought "congeals" into an energetic force. Then LISTEN to the source of the I-thought. Keep listening until light is created in the brain.

 

That's mind yoga -- and you can just keep practicing listening to the source of the I-thought.

 

Or you can do the small universe or microcosmic orbit until you can get into full-lotus and then just keep practicing more full-lotus as 20 minutes of full-lotus equals 4 hours of any other type of meditation. When in full-lotus continue LISTENING to the source of thoughts.

 

So for the past week or so iv been trying a hand full of meditation techniques. My favorite one that i cant do is one I found recently of yoga where you just observe your breathing to basically get in touch with your self. It seems every time i try and do these different techniques my body will start screaming at me about how uncomfortable somthing is, whether it be i wana move my arms fingers w/e. On top of this my brain loves to jump from topic to topic and i try to keep it cool and just "observe" but more and more ill notice it isnt working out until it gets worse and worse.

 

I would image alot of people have had this problem

So yeah, id love some tips and tricks cuz atm meditation probably does more bad than good for me wearing my Patience thin and what not.

[C T]

Here is one very good explanation on what Meditation really is:

 

 

[Hyrdo]

heh, drew, im only 20 but i feel like ima break somthin when i try the full lotus, probably a ankle or a knee, lol.

[Capital]

Use the hips more for the turning of the leg, and you can get the Lotus much better in a single night. Your knees and ankles should turn due to the hips turning, or you're doing it wrong.

[voidisyinyang]

You can download the "small universe" or "microcosmic orbit" audio practice -- it's a 1/2 hour exercise down sitting in a chair. It's just like playing 12 notes of the music scale but along the outside of the body. It's considered the foundation of the Taoist qigong practice:

 

http://avaxhome.ws/ebooks/audiobook/ch-ln-sprn-for-qgn.html

 

This is a very effective meditation tool. Essentially the I-thought is also the number "1" which is not a number really -- it's the form of infinity.

 

So the I-thought "resonates" into the other thoughts but in music is the Number 1 resonates into the Perfect 5th music ratio or 2:3 which is yang and then the perfect 4th music ratio or 3:4 which is yin. The 12 notes of the music scale is called the "circle of fifths" in music but in Taoist alchemy it's actually the "infinite spiral of fifths" which is the natural resonance of the music ratios (nonwestern music).

 

So listening to the I-thought is just listening to the music of reality which we already exist within. The 12 notes is a way to guide and discipline the practice -- the small universe 1/2 hour exercise aka the microcosmic orbit. This is Mantak Chia's first book which gives the details on what is experienced as this practice is initiated:

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2672168/Mantak-C...through-the-Tao

 

heh, drew, im only 20 but i feel like ima break somthin when i try the full lotus, probably a ankle or a knee, lol.

[Hyrdo]

arg, if i didnt have these damn bones i could do lotus lol

[zazaza]

arg, if i didnt have these damn bones i could do lotus lol

i can't do lotus either,

but i don't think it's important.

 

i don't believe it's healthy to sit in one same position for a very long time.

if my suspicion is correct, this probably increases the chance for production of a deadly bloodclot.

 

i think it is important we sit with a straight back,

so we don't put unnecessary pressure on our organs.. and so the bodies energy can flow freely.

 

and for meditation,

it's also important to not lay down and enjoy the relaxation of being in a lazy position,

because when your enjoying the body you're also identifying yourself with it.

 

thus, uncomfortable body positions can be good for development of the meditative state,

as it can show you your identification with the body.

 

on the other hand, if you are laying down in a very crappy position

but you're not identified with the body... then your bodies position will not prevent you from

being in the surpreme state.

Edited December 18, 2009 by zazaza

[Hyrdo]

drew ,the first link i couldnt dowload anything from without paying, like it would act like it was free then boom or w/e. The book you linked said not to practice the contents in it without a teacher

[voidisyinyang]

Hydro -- I had that happen with the first link at first. Did it flash into another website that was a commerical or something? Anyway I had to quick click on the 4th audio link -- because that should be the small universe excercise. I'll let you know as it's about 2/3rds finished downloading as of now. Should be maybe 10 minutes.

 

drew ,the first link i couldnt dowload anything from without paying, like it would act like it was free then boom or w/e. The book you linked said not to practice the contents in it without a teacher

[Hyrdo]

Hydro -- I had that happen with the first link at first. Did it flash into another website that was a commerical or something? Anyway I had to quick click on the 4th audio link -- because that should be the small universe excercise. I'll let you know as it's about 2/3rds finished downloading as of now. Should be maybe 10 minutes.

 

alright, yeah im dling the 4th one now

[voidisyinyang]

Well the audio file wouldn't load for me -- I didn't have the software (my mom's computer)... but the adobe file said that compact disc 6 is the "sitting meditation" small universe practice. So not sure if it's in the free download or not.

 

You can order it for $10 from http://springforestqigong.com Just scroll down on this to the Level 1 sitting meditation c.d.

 

http://www.springforestqigong.com/instructional_tools.htm

 

alright, yeah im dling the 4th one now

[Hyrdo]

"Meditation is exercising the I-concept."-WEI WU WEI

damn it

[voidisyinyang]

Wei Wu Wei was a student of Ramana Maharshi -- what I wrote to you is directly from Ramana Maharshi as well.

 

"Meditation is exercising the I-concept."-WEI WU WEI

damn it

[Guest paul walter]

So for the past week or so iv been trying a hand full of meditation techniques. My favorite one that i cant do is one I found recently of yoga where you just observe your breathing to basically get in touch with your self. It seems every time i try and do these different techniques my body will start screaming at me about how uncomfortable somthing is, whether it be i wana move my arms fingers w/e. On top of this my brain loves to jump from topic to topic and i try to keep it cool and just "observe" but more and more ill notice it isnt working out until it gets worse and worse.

 

I would image alot of people have had this problem

So yeah, id love some tips and tricks cuz atm meditation probably does more bad than good for me wearing my Patience thin and what not.

 

 

Try acid.

[Guest paul walter]

arg, if i didnt have these damn bones i could do lotus lol

Try acid, it's good for the joints.

[mjjbecker]

Just relax. Be more forgiving. If you want to move your arm, move it. If some topic comes up, think about it. You can do all that while paying attention to your breath. Don't enter into an antagonistic relationship with your feelings. Instead be a friend of yourself. Simply allow your attention to fall on breath under its own weight. Don't force it. Just allow your attention to drift toward your breath. Don't hammer it mentally and don't try to control it too much.

 

Understand that your mind is doing what it thinks to be important. As you grow spiritually, some things, like various topics, will become less important to you, and it will become easier and more natural to be without those topics. You won't have to force yourself, because it will be natural. Your body getting jumpy is a reflection of your mind. Once your mind settles down, your body will too. The trick is not to fight anything. Be your own friend. Don't approach yourself as a general would an underling. Don't try to boss yourself.

 

What GIH said.

 

You don't need to do lotus. You can sit cross-legged, on a chair, lying down, or do standing. Whatever works for you. Yes, it is a part of many traditions, certainly Chinese schools of meditation. So is standing, so is sitting on a chair. Forcing postures like the lotus, or doing the horse stance incorrectly, will simply cause injury.

 

You don't need a CD either. Just 'be'. Do this and things will take care of themselves. If you feel you would like some introduction to meditation, here is something for free:

 

http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassana/Archi...sIPE/index.html

 

If you aren't already, do some moving exercises as well as the meditation. The 18 step taiji qigong exercises are very, very good, and you can download video and book instructions for free here:

 

http://www.taichi18.com/forum/viewforum.ph...dade604a3dca12c

 

You have to register on the forum but it is no big deal.

 

How good are the exercises? Using them, back when I was in my late teens, I experienced a state of perfect quiet and clarity. I was not practising or studying any other method. Just these exercises, 20-30 minutes a day. I also had an energy transfer-like electricity-when sitting next to my girlfriend. We were not physically touching at the time and it surprised the hell out of both of us. Not in a bad way, just amazement.

 

One bit of advice on their practice. I did them slower than demonstrated in the video. Just the right pace to keep the flow going.

 

A caveat. Meditation, qigong, and related practices release stored up feelings and emotions in the body. Sometimes this can be very disturbing, depending on the individual. Unsupervised meditation for people who have mental illnesses, from depression to more other conditions, is not advised.

[de_paradise]

I'm with Scereneblue and Drew in suggesting other ways. For energetic reasons I could not do the breath observing meditation for a year and a half. I got into mantras (silent in head ).Vajrayogini practise, is where you have a pretty long mantra and you can (try) also visualize a very interesting red naked woman as per the photos. Theres more instructions out there in google-land, although its supposed to be secret high tantra. A very interesting thing happened this morning, is I became lucid in a dream and decided to do this practise, like the monks do. My mantra voice changed to a kind of female echoey radio voice, and I became aware of my body, which was kind of a gelatinous snakey thingy in space, meanwhile I was trying to change myself into Vajrayogini, with little dream partial images , sort of like a crappy reception on sattelite tv, trying to get there. But I just ended up tying myself into a knot of sorts, like a kind of retarded eel. Ha ha. What Im saying is, it can be more fun than video games. Well, if you've meditated yourself into a lucid dream then you should stick with whatever you were doing to see if it can happen again. BIG LESSON there, do what works, man, not necessarily what they tell you. Like the Woody Allen movie, "whatever works". Its the way your body teaches you, more efficient than having an external teacher. If your mind is too active, well, what I do is switch temporarily to one pointed focus (like the big toe example or 3rd eye), or mantra (my failsafe) I dont hear people talk about switching, but if somethings not getting me down there fast enough because Im thinking about stuff, why not switch. If you have nothing to switch to because you suck, then you had better get good at a few other kinds:)

[voidisyinyang]

That's funny -- Dr. Andrew Weil tells a story in a Hakim Bey book how Weil did acid and amazingly he could do these yoga poses he never could do. The next day AFTER the acid he could STILL not do the yoga poses. Only while on the acid. haha.

 

Try acid, it's good for the joints.

[Encephalon]

I must say, Chunyi Lin's Guided MCO meditation that comes with the Level One pkg is awfully convenient, and it seems it could go a long way toward alleviating some of the focusing problems normally experienced in beginning meditation. Just counting the breath while staring at the wall, Soto Zen style, is a bitch, but inhaling and exhaling through the major gates of the MCO gives the mind - AND the body - something else to work with. I'm not a beginner but it sure would have come in handy several years ago, but that's Monday morning quarterbacking.