Chia Derivatives..NOT

[thaddeus]

Maybe it's just me..but I would love to read up on and study taoist material that did NOT come from or is associated with Mantak Chia.

Anybody? Anything?

Thaddeus

[freeform]

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Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[thaddeus]

why?

 

good question! lol..albeit the obvious one.

Basically, I just have my doubts and I haven't experienced anything or have been impressed by anyone who's studied with him. And, everytime I find a book or website that talks about the physical practices, when I read further, it seems I find out it's a student of Chia. I'm also a bit skeptical about his "co-writers" and what their intentions are. It would be a great disservice for someone to pass off their own ideas as something coming from a taoist lineage. I find it a little hard to believe that one man can cover so much on his own..for example, taichi chuan, chi nei tsang, iron crotch stuff, taoist meditation, dreamwork, tao yin...etc. etc...each a discipline in and of itself that takes a lifetime to master and he's pumping this material out...all with 'co-writers' i might add. And it's also a bit curious to me how the material can jump on the bandwagon of current thoughts..like the second brain, etc.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone who is personally attached to the material. It's just how I see it.

I agree with a previous poster, the Hua Ching Ni stuff is extremely scant on useable information even though he writes volumes and volumes.

So....lol aren't you glad you asked..

[freeform]

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Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[sunshine]

http://www.yiquando.com/

 

http://www.damo-qigong.net/

 

booklet: Flying Without Wings by Bryn Orr

 

further have a look at www.inbiworld.com

I assume they will have some interesting material available in English in the future

[tumoessence]

Sunshine,

 

I have just come back from the Alchemy of Tui Shou workshop with Oleg Tcherne the founder of INBI world. Here is a great possibility to study Taoist Alchemy from a source other than derived than from Chia. Oleg's is based on very fine tuned precise physical alignments in the body and the ability to concentrate are the foundation for alchemical practice. We are trying to get the books and dvds from INBI more easily availble here. Once they are more widely distributed we will organize a camp here where we can get a very firm foundation for alchemical teaching. We will organize a five to seven day camp in the mountains somewhere where we can get hhopefully fifty people to attend. Therre are some camps in south america and europe already organized for this year. If you have the opportunity to travel in the next year you can see for yourselves a real human in his teaching. Oleg is very refreshing in his appproach and brings real depth of experience.

On the other had, some of his Olegs mentors were buddies you might say, with One Cloud and Oleg had mentioned that Chias higher formulas are authentic, but that Chia is not a high level practioner. When I studied with Chia in the early eighties he pretty much admitted that, saying that he hadn't got to the higher formulas in his own practice, and that he was sharing them in the only way he could. He said this during a teacher training session at his house in Huntington Beach. I think Chia is very authentic in the basic practice though which helps us to develop a firm foudation also for the formulas he shared and develop them in ourselves.

Olegs practice is not visualization based and I am not knocking visualization practice, but as I said based in subtle alignments in the body and precise physical movement with breath and focus. Check out inbiworld.com

[thaddeus]

http://www.yiquando.com/

 

http://www.damo-qigong.net/

 

booklet: Flying Without Wings by Bryn Orr

 

further have a look at www.inbiworld.com

I assume they will have some interesting material available in English in the future

Thanks for this..was browsing the yiquando stuff..what are your thoughts on it?

thaddeus

[thaddeus]

Sunshine,

 

I have just come back from the Alchemy of Tui Shou workshop with Oleg Tcherne the founder of INBI world. Here is a great possibility to study Taoist Alchemy from a source other than derived than from Chia. <snip>

 

 

What's with the 'study with the world's best masters, including Carlos Castaneda' all about? That's right up front on the web page. Don't mean to throw off your hearty endoresement, but statements like that pique my curioisty...and red flags..

Thaddeus

[thaddeus]

I am!

 

<snip>

 

I understand your premise that Chia seems to be a jack of all trades but master of none. He has dipped his toes in many different pools all at once, and what you're saying is that perhaps he doesn't have enough toes to go around

 

Personnaly I like Chia's approach - I'm not a believer in lineage-type stuff, I am a believer in practical information - stuff that you can try out yourself and decide if it works for you or doesn't. I'm also of the oppinion (like Chia, I guess) that there are so many usefull pools of knowledge that can and should be tapped - even if you dont end up dedicating your life to just one or two pools, it would be a shame to stop yourself from dipping into a pool of information that interests you.

well that's a whole different kettle of fish. If you find his stuff ineffective, stop reading stuff that is related to his - "now stop bashing your head against the wall and walk through the doorway" as my impressive friend would say. Find out exactly what it is you want. - what stuff have you tried that got you some results? Who specifically have you actually been impressed with? - try these things out (no matter how unusual or strange or whether it follows a lineage or not, just as long as it's different) and notice whether it's getting you what you want. If not then stop walking into the same wall and again try something different.

 

Thanks..I see where you are coming from. A real concern is 20 years can go by and one is still trying stuff out..which is fine for some.

Another point that wasn't really brought out in my response was..let's use chi nei tsang for example. Which came first..Did Chia learn this and teach it to Gilles Martin or did Gilles just partner with Chia and now it's passed off as part of Chia's orginal tutelage. Same with Taichi, how much of the inner structure book and curriculum is really stewart? It takes years of dedicated practice to learn taichi..

So to your point about lineage, for me personally I kinda want to know where this stuff came from. Using taichi for example, do you want to learn Stewart's take on it or something passing on from taoist hermits through chia..see what I mean?

Thaddeus

[monucka]

Mantak Chia is currently pending prosecution in the Phillipines for blatantly plagiarizing two of another teacher's entire books. Remember Cosmic Healing I and II? Compare them to Pranic Healing I and II by Choa Kok Sui, paragraph for paragraph, at this site: http://pranichealing.org/defense.htm

 

I agree whole-heartedly with you.

[tumoessence]

What's with the 'study with the world's best masters, including Carlos Castaneda' all about? That's right up front on the web page. Don't mean to throw off your hearty endoresement, but statements like that pique my curioisty...and red flags..

Thaddeus

 

 

From talking with Oleg I would say he wouldn't classify Carlos as one of the worls's best masters. I can see what you mean about the red flags thrugh such a statement, but from my personal experience of him as a teacher I know that I would like to learn a lot more from him.

[sean]

Thanks..I see where you are coming from. A real concern is 20 years can go by and one is still trying stuff out..which is fine for some.

Another point that wasn't really brought out in my response was..let's use chi nei tsang for example. Which came first..Did Chia learn this and teach it to Gilles Martin or did Gilles just partner with Chia and now it's passed off as part of Chia's orginal tutelage. Same with Taichi, how much of the inner structure book and curriculum is really stewart? It takes years of dedicated practice to learn taichi..

So to your point about lineage, for me personally I kinda want to know where this stuff came from. Using taichi for example, do you want to learn Stewart's take on it or something passing on from taoist hermits through chia..see what I mean?

Thaddeus

I think one way to help cut through some of this dilemna is to get really clear on what you are trying to achieve through your studies. Even if you decide, let's say, that what you are looking for is a mysterious and ineffable spiritual transformation that you can't even comprehend at this stage, that is ok .. but still you will have to judge every teacher on your own to determine if they have the qualities you are looking for. Even the "best" most authentic teacher in the world may not be the right teacher for you at this point. So in the case of Gilles Marin (he lives right down the street from my btw), I would ask myself "Why do I want to learn Chi Nei Tsang?". I would ask this way before I would ask "Is Gilles Marin's Chi Nei Tsang authentically passed down from master's, etc". You can spin your wheels for a long time trying to verify lineage. I'd rather trust my heart. And the answer to the former question is more generative anyway IMO ... it may be "I want to learn how to open up my tan tien." Now I have a clear mission. Now I can freely use whatever tools I come across. Years later you may find that some of those tools were stolen, and this guy hates that guy, and this master is a womanizer and this one evaded taxes ... and that's always food for thought, but it doesn't ultimately matter because you are not married to these people, you are just picking up tools to guide your path to mastery. 20 years goes by for all sentient beings and they are still "trying stuff out." I'd be disappointed to meet a master who is not still exploring and experimenting. The only way this is a failure IMO is if this playful flow is resisted. Order, discipline, focus, mastery ... these qualities emerge from the blissful swim through chaos of life.

 

I'm not dissing your search at all, just my two cents on one aspect of it.

 

Sean

[thaddeus]

From talking with Oleg I would say he wouldn't classify Carlos as one of the worls's best masters. I can see what you mean about the red flags thrugh such a statement, but from my personal experience of him as a teacher I know that I would like to learn a lot more from him.

If you can ask him what exactly and how (logistically) he studied with Castaneda that would be really cool. If you know anything about Castaneda, anyone claiming to even know him personally, much less training with him as a brujo, would be quite extraordinary!

[thaddeus]

 

 

I'm not dissing your search at all, just my two cents on one aspect of it.

 

Sean

Thanks Sean, always a pleasure to read your insights..

I didn't take it as a diss, in fact I whole heartedly agree in the end you just have the heart centered approach to guide you.

I am against 'masters' figuring stuff out and leading at the same time. I think they mislead people and hurt them (with incomplete and misinformation). They hurt alot by their greed and ego needs. The alleged plagiarism of the Pranic Healing stuff disturbs me quite a bit. Is Chia simply sharing or is he ruthlessly building wealth at all costs..

I'm beginning to think there are no 'teachers' but that everything informs us. We just need to be open and listen..but that's a whole 'nuther thread.

thaddeus

[tumoessence]

If you can ask him what exactly and how (logistically) he studied with Castaneda that would be really cool. If you know anything about Castaneda, anyone claiming to even know him personally, much less training with him as a brujo, would be quite extraordinary!

 

 

Thaddeus

He said he trained with him before Casteneda started this whole tensegrity stuff but I didn't question him too much on it. He said that he Carlos didn't really have to much to offer and that Donner was surpassing Casteneda in ability. For me after reading the Sorcerer's Apprentice by Amy Wallace I was glad I never met Casteneda so I wasn't interested in questioning Oleg further. But it seems there are people in inbi world that have a tap into the toltec tradition and offer retreats.

[Trunk]

would love to read up on and study taoist material that did NOT come from or is associated with Mantak Chia.

Good inquiry. You'll find that, amongst Taoist schools, similar topics come up - but they are often treated in critically very different ways.

 

Chia's presentation, imo, is rife with serious flaws. So, seeking out other Taoist sources is .. very important.

 

Some sources are published, some teach just in person. One accomplished teacher of an internal martial art just sort of shakes his head and makes jokes when the topic of books comes up. After hanging out in his school for some little while, it was very clear that there was no way that anyone could learn that particular art through books; the corrections had to be done person-to-person, repeatedly, over a long period of time, in order to produce the correct body-changes that empowered the art. My point is, its worth while to seek out teachers who are teaching in a regular class setting. Not everyone who is extremely accomplished publishes books, or markets themselves widely. All this is not to say that there isn't some decent published material out there.

 

Outside of Taoism, the Tibetans have some parallel studies, and the Tibetans are a very serious bunch.

 

a couple of references:

Sun Do - a Taoist lineage

The Six Yogas of Naropa - a book that contains the crux of the Tibetan Tantric system

 

imo, you'd be well served by keeping a look-out for good sources as a long term project.

 

... added later ...

Yan Gao Fei - authentic Chen style tai chi, based out of Florida

Edited January 11, 2006 by Trunk

[Cameron]

Ken Cohen, BK Frantzis, Sun Do. I studied very briefly with the Shing Yi school of the late Kenny Gong. Very cool people but I don't have time to do that with everything else right now.

 

Seems there are quite a few local teachers in most major cities if you look around. I remember in Atlanta there were quite a few Taoist groups and qigong classes. Here in Az there are quite a few people around also. I am sure California and NYC are full of teachers.

[sean]

I am against 'masters' figuring stuff out and leading at the same time. I think they mislead people and hurt them (with incomplete and misinformation). They hurt alot by their greed and ego needs. The alleged plagiarism of the Pranic Healing stuff disturbs me quite a bit. Is Chia simply sharing or is he ruthlessly building wealth at all costs..

I'm beginning to think there are no 'teachers' but that everything informs us. We just need to be open and listen..but that's a whole 'nuther thread.

thaddeus

I really like that last though a lot. That's cool. Yeah, dishonesty is just bad news in any kind of teacher. But I don't think people gotta wait to share what they are decent at though .. spiritual teachers are just a different kind of coach to me ... with their own specialties (hopefully) and also flaws. I wish more people having even just moderate success with taoist, buddhist, yogic, christian, magickal, sufi, etc. practices would stop waiting until they reach some sort of end-game ultimate enlightenment and just open up shop and let us take hang with them for a buck or two ... pick up tricks here and there. As long as they are not falsely advertising. So again it comes back to the importance of honesty. Anyway ... great topic. I'm always curious to hear about streams of authentic taoist alchemy independent of Chia inc.

[neimad]

the plagiarising of work by chia doesn't suprise me in the least.

 

 

as i have mentioned before i attended one of his workshops in thailand. actually i left halfway through because i really didn't enjoy it and we were staying in a room that every night stank like faeces. they wouldn't even refund any of my money, not even the accomodation or food costs.

the vibe of his place is just weird. the people were quite unfriendly. chia didn't make any sense at all in his teachings and was impossible to understand or follow. actually he didn't even really teach anything, let alone all the stuff that was promised to be covered in the course.

he was arrogant and strutted around in his ridiculous pink outfit, most of the time talking on his mobile. he was rude to staff.

he also energetically attacked me. i wasn't aware of it at the time, but i became aware later that he stole energy from me.

 

it was a place for rich people, not for genuine seekers.

 

spirituality for the wealthy.

 

elitist.

 

i have no doubt he is hoarding money with his swiss bank account...... and his cronies weren't nice people either.

i have no doubt that he is also a very powerful practitioner..... but i think he has never dealt with his ego properly and all that energy he has been cultivating has only fueled it to ridiculous proportions.

 

ive been back to the tao gardens since because they do offer incredible health treatments that are cheap in $AU (although very expensive in thai baht) and saw him again.... being so rude to staff.

[freeform]

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Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[sunshine]

but I'll have to suppliment it with some ego dissolution from another source (luckily I think I've found the best source for me, now all I need is some time and money to go and learn with him)

 

 

Who's that person you mention, if you feel inclined to share?

[thaddeus]

the plagiarising of work by chia doesn't suprise me in the least.

<snip>

 

Didn't really want this to be a chia bashing thread, but I attended an open center workshop for him recently --paid damn good money too...only to realize it was just a freaking infomercial for a series of workshops he had that weekend and the next week...i got really turned off to him and his tactics there. That was a big scam.

But I got a good laugh at him trying to operate the remote for the projector and clicking at the screen instead of the projector and replacing the battery several times..priceless.

thaddeus

[Yoda]

Cool thread.

 

I think Chia, Yudelove, and Ron Jeremy all point out that there are some imbalances in the practice. In my opinion, I believe that energy practice without the balancing of meditation practice is what leads to these imbalances. Not that the practices are flawed, just incomplete.

 

I think Winn's teaching and his example are much more balanced, but still not emphasizing the meditation aspects enough. But enough to at least stay sane, which is refreshing.

 

A guy like Ken Cohen does present a more balanced practice, and I think his accessible teachings and personal decency reflect that.

 

-Yoda

[thaddeus]

Cool thread.

 

A guy like Ken Cohen does present a more balanced practice, and I think his accessible teachings and personal decency reflect that.

 

-Yoda

Maybe it's the sexual energy gurus that are on the wrong trackor dangerous track?

T

Edited January 13, 2006 by thaddeus

[thaddeus]

...

Edited January 13, 2006 by thaddeus