Qi is NOT Energy

[Starjumper]

Starjumper7,

 

I seem to remember following your profile which led to your web page, which led to your Qigong style name some 6 months or so ago. No big deal.

 

Yes, well you see that even knowing the name is misleading in a way because my teacher modified it quite a lot (which for a top master with 70 years of experience, that is a good thing). So, saying the name is misleading, and describing the style is also misleading because people can't relate to it.

 

Let me express a few things to you here.

 

My screen name is Baguakid but I'm no kid. I'm over 50 and have been involved with Chinese Martial Arts and Qigong for 30+ years (Qigong over 20 years). I've lived in several states here in the US and I've lived in China. I also speak a very solid Upper Intermediate level of the Chinese Language.

 

I knew about your age, and had a premonition it would come up here =)

 

I tell you this because in the past 30+ years I've ran in to more BS Jerks in both Chinese Martial arts and Qigong than I care to remember ("Chinese and non-Chinese). I can count on one hand the number of quality Qigong people that I've met that I would consider true masters. As such I've developed a very thick skin when it comes to this topic, especially on a forum.

 

Yes, it really is dismaying to see what is being marketed, particularly on forums, and real masters are so rare. It's a sad situation.

 

I can't tell you what to do but my suggestion to you is if you want to help people with your qigong then open it up and teach people. Writing that you have the "best" style and have had the "best" masters in the world (which implies everyone else has garbage) and other things you write screams of BS. If you want to add credibility to your writing and your style, reflect on how you present yourself here.

 

Everyone here wants to learn, otherwise we wouldn't be here.

 

Just my opinion, hope it helps.

 

 

 

Concerning what you say about 'best' I never claimed to have the best or be the best. I have ONE of the bestsystems, one of the very few, (as you just said, there are so few) and I'm just at grunt level myself. One of the best masters, one of the best in the world, and a few of the other outstanding incredible masters around here were his students. So I just got lucky, and I'm well aware of how things I say come across as BS, maybe I do a little of that on purpose, could that be possible

 

I really would like to spread the word and show people what is real, however this type of thing requires close connection between the teacher and student so small classes are best, like two or three people. Being in proximity is important because the energy I radiate boosts the progress of the student into a whole nuther dimension and we do that EACH week, it's not like some two second 'transmissions' some people rave about.

 

It's kind of complex, but if we radiate to students then having too many students is both depleting to the teacher and limiting to the students, therefore fewer is better.

 

If people do it from a DVD they don't get any of this radiated energy and so putting it on DVD is a lie in a way. Plus, there are the ten thousand ways, whatever gets on a DVD is going to be less than 1% of what the system entails so that is a lie too.

 

Then you get into the quality of students, are you pouring energy down a toilet or are they contributing to the overall energy of the group?

 

Sometimes I think of teaching seminars, but that requires promotion, and self promotion is a very thorny subject. it is better to have someone else doing the promoting and organizing, but I've seen liars promote flakes and how people flock to it and that makes me feel sick. To both the lies and to the people who flock to the liars. I would never allow a liar to promote me, and yet (and this gets deep into Taoist philosophy so I expect few will get it) any attempt at even the truest promotion is still a lie on some level, isn't it?

 

One thing that motivates me to make a DVD, is that when people see how the Taoist sorcerer's dance of life looks like such a beautiful flowing exotic dance that I would get a lot of favorable attention from the opposite sex

Edited July 16, 2010 by Starjumper7

[宁]

Really? What a curious statement. I shared what I think and what my teacher thinks but keep in mind it's from the perspective of cultivating chi power, so if you want to do the MCO anyway then go for it, and good luck.

 

I thought that the

'my method is better than your method'

and

'my master is better than your master'

view

is something we left far behind, in the teen years...

Apparently not.

MCO is a good method. A tool is only a tool.

[Starjumper]

My understanding is that Michael teaches no forced methods to access these common Taoist practices. Regarding my previous post, his belief is that the "releasing of the energy gates and MCO" ought to happen when the time is right for the student. As Of course, he shares advanced techniques with senior students that he does not share with beginners. For specifics on his intermediate and advanced teachings, I'll leave it for him to comment on.

 

Sounds good to me.

 

...I've got lotsa chi.

Good to hear. What do you use your chi for specifically?

 

Well that's sort of basic isn't it? Having a lot of chi power is good for everything. It makes us physically stronger, it makes us healthier, it makes us feel more blissfull energy, it makes us more psychic in all the ways, it is the juice that promotes spiritual growth, and it gives us stronger special abilities. Did I leave anything out?

 

That's the whole idea behind real Nei Kung cultivation but people love to be side tracked. (one must use the word 'real' in a place such as this =)

 

Most of the practitioner of my system will not teach it because they want all this juice to themselves, but I'm an idiot, obviously, so I keep sharing it with students and giving it away because I think the system should be given to the public, which is also what my teacher wants.

 

Starjumper7, how important is virtue/morality in your chi gung system?

 

It is the ultimate target, here is a page from my website which describes it: Taoist Path of the Immortal

Edited July 16, 2010 by Starjumper7

[Starjumper]

I thought that the

'my method is better than your method'

and

'my master is better than your master'

view

is something we left far behind, in the teen years...

Apparently not.

 

What is apparent here is something different.

[rain]

Sounds good to me.

" When thought returns to stillness then that is stillness within movement of the mind, which is much harder to achieve than stillness within movement of the body."

 

Thank you for this sentence Starjumper. It means a lot. I've enjoyed your thoughts.

Edited July 16, 2010 by rain

[Starjumper]

Rain, and I love your energy!

[Starjumper]

Having a lot of chi power is good for ... Did I leave anything out?

 

Oops, I left out better healing abilities.

[Ya Mu]

It has been pointed out many times by numerous teachers that the MCO will activate on its own with a proper neigong practice. I can't speak for other practices but I know for a fact that Stillness-Movement practitioners absolutely have no need to pay any attention whatsoever to this. It will happen for them in a nice natural uncomplicated, and without complications manner. To me, when natural unforced methods are available why practice forced methods that can be unsafe?

[宁]

To me, when natural unforced methods are available why practice forced methods that can be unsafe?

 

Emphasis mine. To me, what you call 'forced methods' were the only ones available. The fact that I learned them first, to me, it makes them 'natural and unforced'. I can think of anything else BUT 'forced' when reffering to MCO as I know it. So there, just different experience, different ways to apply simmilar tools.

 

I still say, tools are just tools.

The 'hand' that uses them makes the difference.

When I was little and my father taught me carpentry, I was often inclined to think that hammers have something against me

Edited July 27, 2010 by Little1

[Ya Mu]

Emphasis mine. To me, what you call 'forced methods' were the only ones available. The fact that I learned them first, to me, it makes them 'natural and unforced'. I can think of anything else BUT 'forced' when reffering to MCO as I know it. So there, just different experience, different ways to apply simmilar tools.

 

I still say, tools are just tools.

The 'hand' that uses them makes the difference.

When I was little and my father taught me carpentry, I was often inclined to think that hammers have something against me

I am glad you had no problems with it. So many have. Did you do some other type of cultivation or just have a natural sense of qi before you did the mco? I do think if one already has a storehouse they will have way less problems with this.

[宁]

I am glad you had no problems with it. So many have. Did you do some other type of cultivation or just have a natural sense of qi before you did the mco? I do think if one already has a storehouse they will have way less problems with this.

Actually no, although I tried some methods before, with little effect. So nothing worth noticing. Nothing compared to what I learned next. The Healing Tao methods were extremely beneficial to me, healing is the proper word. After I recovered to a 'normal' state, I only maintained a casual practice, mostly for keeping the level up. I still can't figure my way up to the upper formulas, but I am aquainted to people that do, and have great results. My conclusion is, even though the system is available to all, the path is extremely personal.

When we say that some practices aren't ment for everybody, I think this situation reffers to every practice known. Some just won't/can't budge out of this perception prison that we know as reality, even if they sincerely try - not their fault, the force of conditioning is just amazing.

[Raymond Wolter]

To me, when natural unforced methods are available why practice forced methods that can be unsafe?

Is it really unsafe? Or probably it depends on what is "forced"? And may be what is forced is different from person to person?

 

Chunyi Lin teaches MCO in his basic level. Winn teaches a physical form of it. Falun Gong guys jump all the way to Big Orbit right away. So, a bunch of folks do seem to group MCO among the basic stuff and feel a need to specifically work on running the orbit. Different schools of thought I guess?

[Ya Mu]

Is it really unsafe? Or probably it depends on what is "forced"? And may be what is forced is different from person to person?

 

Chunyi Lin teaches MCO in his basic level. Winn teaches a physical form of it. Falun Gong guys jump all the way to Big Orbit right away. So, a bunch of folks do seem to group MCO among the basic stuff and feel a need to specifically work on running the orbit. Different schools of thought I guess?

Where I see the most problems with it is with folks who have not cultivated and start attempting to run qi in an orbit when they have no extra qi to do so. So it gets stuck and stagnant producing any number of problems. From another thread here is an interesting perspective by VcraigP:

The important distinction is made by my teacher when asked about the MCO practice the response is basically "if there is no water in the reservoir there is nothing to move in the channels"

[Ya Mu]

... My conclusion is, even though the system is available to all, the path is extremely personal.

When we say that some practices aren't ment for everybody, I think this situation reffers to every practice known. Some just won't/can't budge out of this perception prison that we know as reality, even if they sincerely try - not their fault, the force of conditioning is just amazing.

Understand

[Starjumper]

Understand

I understand too. MCO is forced, it is a hard style, and it's not that good for you, and you guys are ignoring Ya Mu and other experienced ones, ignoring the important part and nit picking at details to make yourselves feel right. We understand that.

Edited July 27, 2010 by Starjumper7

[betwixter]

-

Edited September 12, 2010 by betwixter

[宁]

I understand too. MCO is forced, it is a hard style, and it's not that good for you, and you guys are ignoring Ya Mu and other experienced ones, ignoring the important part and nit picking at details to make yourselves feel right. We understand that.

 

Every practice is forced.

We weren't supposed to practice.

Practice is a cure to an illness..

[宁]

If we look at the 河圖 and 洛書 number maps, and their corresponding 八卦 Diagrams, the Yuan Qi must occupy the central pivotal role of the map. Is this correct?

Also, regarding the other types of Qi that correspond to the trigrams, how can we find out more about them? It seems that the Bagua Diagram reffers to 9 types of Qi, of which Yuan Qi is the Original Qi.

I suspect there is also a progression, according to daoist esoteric cosmology, that the practitioner must repeat inside his own body, from most common type of Qi found in the world of the 万物, up to the highest of the 元气.

 

 

Thank you

 

L1

[Taomeow]

If we look at the 河圖 and 洛書 number maps, and their corresponding 八卦 Diagrams, the Yuan Qi must occupy the central pivotal role of the map. Is this correct?

 

No, it is not a separate number or position, it is the sum total of the rest of them, but not a mathematical sum. Qi either arises as a process or "contracts" into a potential. Yuan Qi is contracted into a potential inclusive of all possible processes. It is not part of the map, it is the connections between parts of the map. Say, you were to buy a ticket to come visit us in CA. You have your ticket in your pocket; that's your "yuan California qi." In and of itself it doesn't fly. But the ticket contains within itself your packing, your phone call for the cab, the cab ride to the airport, the plane, the pilots who were trained to fly it, your seat, your meal, your jetlag, and the rest of it, it's all in there, contracted into a potential. Should you lose the ticket, the plane will still be there, and CA will still be there, but you're not connecting.

 

Also, regarding the other types of Qi that correspond to the trigrams, how can we find out more about them? It seems that the Bagua Diagram reffers to 9 types of Qi, of which Yuan Qi is the Original Qi.

 

No, it refers to 8 types of qi, and the wuxing, to another 5, and yuan qi involves the combination of these combinations into the 10 Heavenly stems and 12 Earthly branches through the action of the 9 "primal" vibrations of the Nine Stars, or numbers, and don't forget the binary yin-yang codes therein. The math of yuan qi is complex. (See Ta Chuan, The Great Treatise on the Changes.)

 

To find out more, all I have to offer is the route I've taken myself -- the indirect roundabout way. ("Nothing Chinese is ever straightforward.") Xuan Kong feng shui, TCM, taijiquan, and the I Ching were the applications I started with. Alchemy I didn't understand until I understood less ambitious applications.

 

The trouble is, people (I don't mean you, it's my ongoing complaint in general) start at a level that is too metaphysical... I honestly don't know if one can jump straight to that level. Maybe, with transmissions from immortals. Maybe, with special talents. But I only know the route I've taken: simple to complex in a steady progression, with empirical applications, i.e. solving pragmatic problems with the tools of taoist arts and sciences. A good friend of mine who is quite knowledgeable and getting more so under very good guidance put it this way: "Cultivation is solving your problems, one by one, simple to complex." I am lost when people delve into the complex metaphysical level who skipped the simple level. If you can do the alchemical transformation of a bunch of TCM herbs to arrive at the kind of qi you're aiming at, that's mastering the simple level. (Might take a decade though to even know where to look for that level.) If you know straight away how to do that in your own body, you don't need any of that. But I didn't.

 

It's very easy to do "something" in one's own body, and to feel another "something," and to "think" "something about it." It's very easy to buy a ticket "somewhere," and with metaphysical involvement, it's very easy to buy a ticket to the North Pole while planning to take a trip to Equador. You know you're on the North Pole when what you thought of as Equador turns out cold as hell, but in transition, you can't tell the difference. Taoist sciences and applications can help match this "something" one is capable of feeling and thinking to a connecting flight "somewhere you want to go." At least that's my understanding of the correlation between theory and practice.

 

I suspect there is also a progression, according to daoist esoteric cosmology, that the practitioner must repeat inside his own body, from most common type of Qi found in the world of the 万物, up to the highest of the 元气.

 

Yes, there is a progression, and it goes North---Southwest---East---Southeast---Center---Northwest---West---Northeast---South.

[宁]

Thank you Taomeow, is nice to see someone else having simmilar interests.

I can witness the effects of the Wu xing inside my body, and outside. But I can't figure out what the Qi types corresponding to the eight trigrams would experience like.

I'm not even sure they are experience-able.

I know I've put the question backwards, this is how I usually solve them, starting from the tail to the head

What got me going with it was Ken's assertion on his blog that there are nine types of Qi, and the one that is looped into the SHO is the third. Just boggled my mind..

 

Really appreciate any input.

[al.]

Thank you Taomeow, is nice to see someone else having simmilar interests.

I can witness the effects of the Wu xing inside my body, and outside. But I can't figure out what the Qi types corresponding to the eight trigrams would experience like.

I'm not even sure they are experience-able.

I know I've put the question backwards, this is how I usually solve them, starting from the tail to the head

What got me going with it was Ken's assertion on his blog that there are nine types of Qi, and the one that is looped into the SHO is the third. Just boggled my mind..

 

Really appreciate any input.

 

This is something I'm also exploring.

From one angle, the Trigrams can correspond to the channels of the body and their associated qi dynamics:

heaven: Du

earth: Ren

lake: taiyang

fire: shaoyang

wind: yangming

mountain: taiyin

water: shaoyin

thunder: jueyin

 

JueYin, for example, is composed of the pericardium and liver channels, which are characterised by storage, retreat, and rejuvination. It is these qualities which might be experienced as the trigram in ourselves- the ability for the blood at it's deepest level to nourish the body and at the same time hold and calm the shen and the emotions. How does the blood actually feel in our body? to rest our mind on it and really feel the blood pumping through the limbs and different parts of the body, does actually feel quite calming. How do the channels feel? how do the organs feel? perhaps this is a good way of going through the different trigrams in the body.

 

I'm not sure though, sometimes it seems like fixing the trigrams to aspects of the body can be too rigid, especially when considering the way the bagua can represent so many different things, can be stamped endlessly onto every smaller and smaller part of the body and greater and greater part of the world at large. In my case I should probably heed Taomeow's words and not jump into such complexities without reaching the equivalent experiential stage- I could save myself a headache!

a

 

a

[Aetherous]

Really interesting, al.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I have an honest curiosity.. does anyone besides me wonder what it would be like to simply translate everything into english, and to study that with an open and sincere western perspective.. what i'm getting at is Taomeow's delightful and very insightful interpretation, as follows:

Yuan Qi is contracted into a potential inclusive of all possible processes. It is not part of the map, it is the connections between parts of the map. Say, you were to buy a ticket to come visit us in CA. You have your ticket in your pocket; that's your "yuan California qi." In and of itself it doesn't fly. But the ticket contains within itself your packing, your phone call for the cab, the cab ride to the airport, the plane, the pilots who were trained to fly it, your seat, your meal, your jetlag, and the rest of it, it's all in there, contracted into a potential. Should you lose the ticket, the plane will still be there, and CA will still be there, but you're not connecting.

Nicely done, and easy for the western mind's understanding.. sometimes, it seems like there is a 'secret society' mentality with those that study Eastern practices in depth.. understandings that can change the course of western civilization are contained within the Taoist and other Asian philosophies, but.. often they are guarded and cryptically presented.. anyway, thanks, Taomeow..

 

Be well..

[Birch]

Greetings..

 

I have an honest curiosity.. does anyone besides me wonder what it would be like to simply translate everything into english, and to study that with an open and sincere western perspective.. what i'm getting at is Taomeow's delightful and very insightful interpretation, as follows:

 

Nicely done, and easy for the western mind's understanding.. sometimes, it seems like there is a 'secret society' mentality with those that study Eastern practices in depth.. understandings that can change the course of western civilization are contained within the Taoist and other Asian philosophies, but.. often they are guarded and cryptically presented.. anyway, thanks, Taomeow..

 

Be well..

 

 

What??? Can't have all those people going around getting understanding and gaining perspectives about things! THEN how would we make any ca$h (and gain/maintain power)???

[Baguakid]

Greetings..

 

I have an honest curiosity.. does anyone besides me wonder what it would be like to simply translate everything into english, and to study that with an open and sincere western perspective.. what i'm getting at is Taomeow's delightful and very insightful interpretation, as follows:

 

Nicely done, and easy for the western mind's understanding.. sometimes, it seems like there is a 'secret society' mentality with those that study Eastern practices in depth.. understandings that can change the course of western civilization are contained within the Taoist and other Asian philosophies, but.. often they are guarded and cryptically presented.. anyway, thanks, Taomeow..

 

Be well..

 

 

Sorry, I have no idea what Taomeao is trying to say here. Call me stupid or call me an egg (white on the outside yellow on the inside) but it doesn't make any sense to me what-so-ever.

 

The concepts of Qi are outlined all over the place and for me don't see any reason to westernize it.

 

Example:

http://www.yinyanghouse.com/theory/chinese/what_is_qi

 

Sorry to go against the grain. Now back to my practice....

 

Best,