Gurdjieff

[JustARandomPanda]

 

I can definitely tell some major alchemy influences (both western and taoist), Hermeticum influences, modern chemistry (circa 1920's) and...to my great surprise...Sufi influences in Gurdjieff's teachings. I may make a separate post later about some of the things I've been thinking over. Never have I come to appreciate the unique wisdom of actually DOING as from studying Gurdjieff. If it's one thing I've learned it's that watching what a sentient being actually DOES - that is, Actions in the Physical World - always telegraphs the true state of his/her Being.

 

 

In terms of your last sentence, would you expound further? Examples? Are you saying that the internal (true nature) always matches the external actions?

 

 

ralis

 

Hmm... good question.

 

Well...assuming I'm understanding Gurdjieff properly (admittedly a big assumption) then I'd say yes. It's weird though because Gurdjieff often stressed what one actually needs in order to attain Awakening may not be at all what we think we see we need. So sometimes he could be exceedingly nasty and ugly-tempered to a student for example. But it was always with a purpose. If he was mean and ugly-tempered it was to "shock" that student into "awakening" to all that student's own hidden triggers, conditioning, pre-suppositions and prejudices, etc. As an example: One time, to a lady who was being overly fawning of him as a Guru he told her to pick up a bowl. She ended up burning her hands as the bowl was scalding hot. Not a very nice teacher, eh? But he had surmised this particular woman needed a physically damaging, nasty shock to hit her Centers and Awake that held her in vice grip. They kept her from really seeing what was going on - both with herself and Gurdjieff (as I understood the lesson).

 

In other words...Gurdjieff had no problem whatsoever displaying behavior that I've no doubt most people on this board would find reprehensible - *if* - such behavior was what was needed to jolt that student from being "asleep". Now people who have not attained at least to the same level as Gurdjieff won't be aware of all the reasons why he took such an extreme form of teaching.

 

What I noticed:

 

Santi, NewDawnFades, Lino and GoldisHeavy's behavior in the KAP thread could possibly be covered by the above Gurdjieffian teaching methods. Not always do they reply nice, kindly, generously, charitably or with loving-kindness. Now notice one's own reaction AS IT IS HAPPENING when reading their posts. That split-second reaction is a 3D "in the round" snapshot of the true state of one's Being. But a student first has to be watching himself/herself in a particular way to even see it. And as I understand it - Gurdjieff maintained this kind of constant self-monitoring (I liken it to being similar to Awareness Watching Awareness) is extremely difficult to maintain.

 

He's right. I've been trying to do it for several days and it is a freaking Herculean / Titanic task to stay in this awareness-watching-data-gathering state for more than a few minutes at best. Until I actually tried it I had no idea how difficult it is. I bet it would be difficult to do even for people whom have full-blown awakened Kundalini if they had never practiced it consistently before.

 

 

I have found it is easy as hell to criticize and oh-so-hard to fight that conditioning and trigger. But in fighting it (on the few occasions I've been successful) I got to see up close and personal just how controlled by an exterior trigger I really am. You saw how I failed to just watch in my prior post - I gave that list. *heavy sigh* It telegraphed the current State of my Being to any and all Awakened individuals whom might be bothering to hang out at TaoBums.

 

In a way Gurdjieff highlighted the weird Twilight Zone Catch-22 I'm caught in. In order to TRULY assess someone's Being (i.e. assess the person who hands out advice) I'd have to have attained a state of Realization higher than them. So in the meantime I admit..I AM going on faith and hope that they KNOW (if I accept their advice) - because I currently don't have the attainment of true realization - that is realization to know from a state of total absence of prior conditioning, unexamined presuppositions and triggers. There is the danger life will end up proving I made a wrong choice. But if I chose well I do believe far more can be attained with the guidance of a teacher than without one.

[Taomeow]

There's this concept presented by Castaneda's Don Juan that applies to teachers using such methods -- a Petty Tyrant. The premise being that the Great Tyrant is reality itself -- that's who pushes us around sometimes with utmost brutality -- so to deal with that, one has to get training from Petty Tyrants. It's a prerequisite for handling reality in a reality-based fashion, not in an ideology-based manner that fails every time the Great Tyrant strikes, and many times a Petty Tyrant does too.

 

However, this doesn't mean that everyone who chooses to behave as a petty tyrant is a teacher and is doing it in order to ultimately help the student. In fact, in most cases a petty tyrant is only that and nothing more, no teacher, just someone who has been conditioned (by petty tyrants in his/her own upbringing) to get his/her occasional kicks out of being nasty to other people. Doesn't mean one can't use them as Petty Tyrant Teachers though, but that's the merit of the student who can master the technique, not of the accidental teacher who has nothing but nastiness to teach.

 

Perhaps there's a level where differentiating purposeful teacher-tyrants and nasty-ziran people becomes unnecessary. Everyone can learn everything from everybody, theoretically. But the real learning happens when pain is transformed into something useful (the way an irritating, painful grain of sand that gets inside an oyster is transformed into a pearl by the oyster who succeeds and isn't killed by it). When it is merely numbed out, when people decide to pretend (to themselves and/or in front of others) that what is hurtful and is meant to hurt is not hurting them, then no learning happens, nor any useful transformations -- only make-believe games of make-believe wisdom and spiritual superiority. The second Reality strikes though, down the drain they go.

 

IMO, as usual.

[voidisyinyang]

SereneBlue -- here's my Gurdieff and Taoist Yoga article. I use nonwestern music to connect the two:

 

http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/259-Ho...-Gurdjieff.html

 

In terms of your last sentence, would you expound further? Examples? Are you saying that the internal (true nature) always matches the external actions?

 

 

ralis

 

 

Hmm... good question.

 

Well...assuming I'm understanding Gurdjieff properly (admittedly a big assumption) then I'd say yes. It's weird though because Gurdjieff often stressed what one actually needs in order to attain Awakening may not be at all what we think we see we need. So sometimes he could be exceedingly nasty and ugly-tempered to a student for example. But it was always with a purpose. If he was mean and ugly-tempered it was to "shock" that student into "awakening" to all that student's own hidden triggers, conditioning, pre-suppositions and prejudices, etc. As an example: One time, to a lady who was being overly fawning of him as a Guru he told her to pick up a bowl. She ended up burning her hands as the bowl was scalding hot. Not a very nice teacher, eh? But he had surmised this particular woman needed a physically damaging, nasty shock to hit her Centers and Awake that held her in vice grip. They kept her from really seeing what was going on - both with herself and Gurdjieff (as I understood the lesson).

 

In other words...Gurdjieff had no problem whatsoever displaying behavior that I've no doubt most people on this board would find reprehensible - *if* - such behavior was what was needed to jolt that student from being "asleep". Now people who have not attained at least to the same level as Gurdjieff won't be aware of all the reasons why he took such an extreme form of teaching.

 

What I noticed:

 

Santi, NewDawnFades, Lino and GoldisHeavy's behavior in the KAP thread could possibly be covered by the above Gurdjieffian teaching methods. Not always do they reply nice, kindly, generously, charitably or with loving-kindness. Now notice one's own reaction AS IT IS HAPPENING when reading their posts. That split-second reaction is a 3D "in the round" snapshot of the true state of one's Being. But a student first has to be watching himself/herself in a particular way to even see it. And as I understand it - Gurdjieff maintained this kind of constant self-monitoring (I liken it to being similar to Awareness Watching Awareness) is extremely difficult to maintain.

 

He's right. I've been trying to do it for several days and it is a freaking Herculean / Titanic task to stay in this awareness-watching-data-gathering state for more than a few minutes at best. Until I actually tried it I had no idea how difficult it is. I bet it would be difficult to do even for people whom have full-blown awakened Kundalini if they had never practiced it consistently before.

I have found it is easy as hell to criticize and oh-so-hard to fight that conditioning and trigger. But in fighting it (on the few occasions I've been successful) I got to see up close and personal just how controlled by an exterior trigger I really am. You saw how I failed to just watch in my prior post - I gave that list. *heavy sigh* It telegraphed the current State of my Being to any and all Awakened individuals whom might be bothering to hang out at TaoBums.

 

In a way Gurdjieff highlighted the weird Twilight Zone Catch-22 I'm caught in. In order to TRULY assess someone's Being (i.e. assess the person who hands out advice) I'd have to have attained a state of Realization higher than them. So in the meantime I admit..I AM going on faith and hope that they KNOW (if I accept their advice) - because I currently don't have the attainment of true realization - that is realization to know from a state of total absence of prior conditioning, unexamined presuppositions and triggers. There is the danger life will end up proving I made a wrong choice. But if I chose well I do believe far more can be attained with the guidance of a teacher than without one.

[JustARandomPanda]

TaoMeow,

 

Yes, I think you're right. My problem of course is that I don't know how to tell whom is merely using this method as a teaching tool and whom is just being nasty-tempered to..well..just be nasty-tempered. I suppose ultimately it doesn't matter. Both can be used to learn from. I just find it odd to see two or more Awakened Beings (assuming for the sake of argument they actually are) trade blows on message boards. But then again...reality is often weird like that.

 

And Drew...

 

Great article. That's one reason why I wish you'd get up off your Full Lotus-loving butt and write another book. Or at the very least collect all your articles and publish them together as a PDF.

 

 

BTW - Ralis...did you notice how Gurdjieff's teaching about how to attain immortality (and rejection of automatic reincarnation ala Tantric and Buddhist beliefs) is identical to the Taoist one?!!!

Edited December 21, 2009 by SereneBlue

[voidisyinyang]

Yeah I could just collect my online articles but there's not much fun in that -- anyone can do it pretty quick. I kind of like how the different locations online can lead readers to other related articles, etc. The magic of the web.

 

You can read my blog for my past research. I have many of my past articles on there as well -- like my current blog post:

 

http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com

 

Or I could rewrite the material with my updated perspectives -- but I would need a publisher to have motivation for that. Not much point in cranking out tons of work when there's no intended audience set-up.

 

So thanks for the encouragement but you're only 1 reader! haha. I mean do you know a publisher? haha.

 

I've submitted my writing to publishers. Publishers usually lose money on books and my writing is TOO RADICAL!! So I've gotten dismissals that are mutually contradictory -- too religious -- too academic -- too political -- too New Age!!

 

 

 

 

And Drew...

 

Great article. That's one reason why I wish you'd get up off your Full Lotus-loving butt and write another book. Or at the very least collect all your articles and publish them together as a PDF.

BTW - Ralis...did you notice how Gurdjieff's teaching about how to attain immortality (and rejection of automatic reincarnation ala Tantric and Buddhist beliefs) is identical to the Taoist one?!!!

Edited December 21, 2009 by drewhempel

[lino]

TaoMeow,

 

Yes, I think you're right. My problem of course is that I don't know how to tell whom is merely using this method as a teaching tool and whom is just being nasty-tempered to..well..just be nasty-tempered. I suppose ultimately it doesn't matter. Both can be used to learn from. I just find it odd to see two or more Awakened Beings (assuming for the sake of argument they actually are) trade blows on message boards. But then again...reality is often weird like that.

 

And Drew...

 

Great article. That's one reason why I wish you'd get up off your Full Lotus-loving butt and write another book. Or at the very least collect all your articles and publish them together as a PDF.

BTW - Ralis...did you notice how Gurdjieff's teaching about how to attain immortality (and rejection of automatic reincarnation ala Tantric and Buddhist beliefs) is identical to the Taoist one?!!!

 

Uh

 

I'm ashamed to say that the "middle finger" thing wasn't even nasty tempered, it was malicious because I was laughing when I did it.

[宁]

SB,

 

i'm happy to see you found something you like... hold on to it and don't turn back...

 

Good luck!

[JustARandomPanda]

Yeah I could just collect my online articles but there's not much fun in that -- anyone can do it pretty quick. I kind of like how the different locations online can lead readers to other related articles, etc. The magic of the web.

 

Or I could rewrite the material with my updated perspectives -- but I would need a publisher to have motivation for that. Not much point in cranking out tons of work when there's no intended audience set-up.

 

So thanks for the encouragement but you're only 1 reader! haha. I mean do you know a publisher? haha.

 

I've submitted my writing to publishers. Publishers usually lose money on books and my writing is TOO RADICAL!! So I've gotten dismissals that are mutually contradictory -- too religious -- too academic -- too political -- too New Age!!

 

 

 

 

 

Oh..well that's a bummer. I, for one, would LOVE to read a book by you. Especially an updated one. Maybe I can poke and prod you into writing some updated blog posts instead?

 

I've been thinking about your Gurdjieff and Taoist Yoga article. It explains not just Gurdjieff himself but also why he believed the Taoist interpretation about (supposedly) achieving immortality (whether physical or spiritual) was best and most accurately understood and explained by alchemical Taoists.

 

 

 

P.S. Thanks Lino and Little1

 

 

I'm going to ask everyone....

 

How do you yourself determine if someone has the 'realization(s)' they claim they've had or have?

 

 

p.p.s. I just picked up this book at a used bookstore - Daughter of Fire

Edited December 22, 2009 by SereneBlue

[voidisyinyang]

Here's my latest blog post and it's on music alchemy --

 

http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot...-and-patel.html

 

Oh..well that's a bummer. I, for one, would LOVE to read a book by you. Especially an updated one. Maybe I can poke and prod you into writing some updated blog posts instead?

 

I've been thinking about your Gurdjieff and Taoist Yoga article. It explains not just Gurdjieff himself but also why he believed the Taoist interpretation about (supposedly) achieving immortality (whether physical or spiritual) was best and most accurately understood and explained by alchemical Taoists.

P.S. Thanks Lino and Little1

I'm going to ask everyone....

 

How do you yourself determine if someone has the 'realization(s)' they claim they've had or have?

p.p.s. I just picked up this book at a used bookstore - Daughter of Fire

[lino]

Oh..well that's a bummer. I, for one, would LOVE to read a book by you. Especially an updated one. Maybe I can poke and prod you into writing some updated blog posts instead?

 

I've been thinking about your Gurdjieff and Taoist Yoga article. It explains not just Gurdjieff himself but also why he believed the Taoist interpretation about (supposedly) achieving immortality (whether physical or spiritual) was best and most accurately understood and explained by alchemical Taoists.

P.S. Thanks Lino and Little1

I'm going to ask everyone....

 

How do you yourself determine if someone has the 'realization(s)' they claim they've had or have?

 

If you take a look at most of the "nasty tempered" posts that Santi gives, he uses at least some honey with the vinegar that he is dishing out. That's the impression that I get. Highly cultivated guy + Martial Arts

 

If you look at Daniel Ingram's response posts over the internet, especially when he is getting flamed...you feel like you get hit by a truckload of COMPASSION

[ralis]

Oh..well that's a bummer. I, for one, would LOVE to read a book by you. Especially an updated one. Maybe I can poke and prod you into writing some updated blog posts instead?

 

I've been thinking about your Gurdjieff and Taoist Yoga article. It explains not just Gurdjieff himself but also why he believed the Taoist interpretation about (supposedly) achieving immortality (whether physical or spiritual) was best and most accurately understood and explained by alchemical Taoists.

P.S. Thanks Lino and Little1

I'm going to ask everyone....

 

How do you yourself determine if someone has the 'realization(s)' they claim they've had or have?

p.p.s. I just picked up this book at a used bookstore - Daughter of Fire

 

I read Irina Tweedie's book years ago and I felt he was exceptionally cruel to her. Does that make him a realized master? Not necessarily. She did comment in an interview that she accepted his harsh treatment. I still have trouble with this sort of behavior from teachers. In general, teachers that are abusive have unresolved psychological issues and may have been abused as children.

 

Something similar happened to me with a group of healers here in Santa Fe that nearly cost me my life! Although, I resent (putting it mildly) their harsh techniques, I did become stronger because of it. I don't recommend that path.

 

ralis

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Ah, Gurdjieff...What an amazing being. BTW, you can go to youtube and find some actual footage of him and get energy (shakti) just from watching him. What an amazing, amazing being. I love Gurdjieff. If I had been alive then, I definitely would have found him and studied with him.

 

I have a huge collection of Gurdjieff books. Books about him, about the Work, by his students and also by teachers that spun off from him like Nicoll, J.G. Benett and Robert De Ropp. The best books to get a feel of Gurdjieff the man and teacher I think are 'Boyhood With Gurdjieff' and 'Gurdjieff Remembered' by Fritz Peters. He actually grew up at the Preuire and had a very special relationship with Gurdjieff. Also a very helpful manual to the 'meat' of Gurdjieff's work (Self Observation and Self Remembering) is Charles Tart's 'Waking Up: Overcoming the Obstacles to Human Potential'. It doesn't include any of the esoteric cosmology of octaves, etc., but is a nice discussion and explanation of these basic and essential practices. I enjoyed Bennett's autobiography very much as well.

 

When I tried going to Gurdjieff groups, however, I found the people mainly to be maniacs. I worked with several people who had been in the Work for many years, and I was unimpressed with the quality of their being/presence. Just my impression, perhaps there are some high-level groups, but I haven't found them.

 

I'm glad to see a discussion of Gurdjieff, though. What a mysterious being...also considered himself a 'teacher of dance' and you can get a glimpse of some of the movements at the end of the film "Meetings With Remarkable Men", and they are an astoundingly powerful and beautiful taste. (You can also find these on youtube).

[Taomeow]

I'm going to ask everyone....

 

How do you yourself determine if someone has the 'realization(s)' they claim they've had or have?

 

 

I did some serious work at one point with a shaman's apprentice. He was a young guy, too young and ordinary to inspire any great expectations -- when I found out he'd be doing shamanic work while the shaman was away, I got upset, thinking, oh great, I'm stuck with this nobody now... Well, he showed up in a different dimension and demonstrated hands-on power over life and death, for starters, then read my mind and communicated with me telepathically, then saw exactly the people I saw in my visions and knew who they were (with no information he could possibly get from me or anyone in advance), then intervened on my behalf and at my request in the spirit world and got the results I needed, then made himself a "nobody" again when it was over. He left me in awe of his compassion, humility, and power -- but he never even mentioned he had any of it, he was "just a student" according to him. THAT's what the real thing looks like...

 

I've encountered the real thing on a number of occasions and the pattern is always the same: they show you the money, not the credit cards.

[goldisheavy]

TaoMeow,

 

Yes, I think you're right. My problem of course is that I don't know how to tell whom is merely using this method as a teaching tool and whom is just being nasty-tempered to..well..just be nasty-tempered. I suppose ultimately it doesn't matter.

 

I suggest the following rule of thumb guideline:

 

1. When you read a boisterous post, is the ill temper all there is? Are insults the sole content? Or is the person insulting alongside providing information?

 

For example: if the original message was, "in order to go to Florida, go west from New York," is the reply purely "f u f u f u, period" or is it "f u, you need to go south, or at least north, if you want to go around the whole planet first"? If the person is trying to say something amid the rough language, it's more likely legitimate. If the post has no other information besides sheer put downs, it's more likely to be illegitimate.

 

2. How often does it happen? Is wrath the only modality the person is capable of? Or is the person mostly calm and kind and uses the wrathful modality only judiciously when the circumstances arise?

 

3. Are there instances where you'd expect the person to get angry, but instead the sometimes-wrath-using person is calm and reasoned and is not reacting to what could be perceived as provocation? If such instances exist, it is evidence that likely this person has command over one's temper and allows it to flare only or mostly on purpose (as opposed to having a run-away temper).

 

To make a good judgment on this matter, you have to observe the person for a while. Additionally you have to be aware of your own biases. For example, on the first point it's all too easy to feel so insulted, so as to simply dismiss the information present in the post. So while in reality you might have a post there that communicates something beyond and besides roughness, a sensitive and unaware person might not be able to see past the roughness.

 

And finally, I suggest that unless other people move to physically assault you, and as long as there is opportunity to simply ignore the influence, what matters most is yourself. You are your own ultimate teacher. Other people, even if those other people claim to be Buddha, are just accessories to your learning. They are not in charge of your learning. No one is in charge of your mind other than yourself. When you awaken, you'll find that while others have served as the context of your awakening, it is you who awakened spontaneously for mysterious reasons. No one can cause you or force you to awaken. No one can cause you or force you to be ignorant either. Even Buddha couldn't force people to understand what he was saying. This is why you are always the one in charge, and as long as you see others as accessories to your learning, what they do and how they behave is less important, because you won't feel trapped or controlled by such people. You'll be like the owner and Lord of such people. Even a Buddha is like a CD player in your mind -- you can turn it on and off at will. You can begin listening to Buddha and stop listening to Buddha at will. If you think someone is a very important teacher, you are even more important than that someone, because it is you who decided that and who has the power to undecide that at any moment.

 

The teacher is always at the mercy of the student. The student is always the Lord and the Master and teachers are mere slaves.

Edited December 22, 2009 by goldisheavy

[JustARandomPanda]

 

If you take a look at most of the "nasty tempered" posts that Santi gives, he uses at least some honey with the vinegar that he is dishing out. That's the impression that I get. Highly cultivated guy + Martial Arts

 

Oh absolutely I agree. I see him as being very "Gurdjieffian" in that sense. He's attained a greater level of Realization than myself by far. I believe I've chosen well for a Teacher. I was just stating the things reading Gurdjieff has stirred up within me. It's certainly made me appreciate Santi, Susan and Tao more!

 

 

Furthermore because of Gurdjieff I finally realized simply because I may not understand why something should be done a certain way doesn't mean the Teacher doesn't know what he or she is doing.

[Tao99]

I suggest the following rule of thumb guideline:

 

...

 

And finally, I suggest that unless other people move to physically assault you, and as long as there is opportunity to simply ignore the influence, what matters most is yourself. ...

 

The teacher is always at the mercy of the student. The student is always the Lord and the Master and teachers are mere slaves.

Yea, harsh, contrarian, sarcastic, pointed, commentary are usually a part of a legitimate and lively debate/argument.

 

And like you say, physical assault is a whole other matter (as is random insults and shouting).

 

As a rule for me, I would only accept such miserable techniques from Zen masters, who are specifically trained in them and their purpose (in Linji sect). And even then, I would need to see their lineage tree and inka certification.

 

Zen Master and Abbot of Bailin Temple China, Jing Hui

[Creation]

I did some serious work at one point with a shaman's apprentice. He was a young guy, too young and ordinary to inspire any great expectations -- when I found out he'd be doing shamanic work while the shaman was away, I got upset, thinking, oh great, I'm stuck with this nobody now... Well, he showed up in a different dimension and demonstrated hands-on power over life and death, for starters, then read my mind and communicated with me telepathically, then saw exactly the people I saw in my visions and knew who they were (with no information he could possibly get from me or anyone in advance), then intervened on my behalf and at my request in the spirit world and got the results I needed, then made himself a "nobody" again when it was over. He left me in awe of his compassion, humility, and power -- but he never even mentioned he had any of it, he was "just a student" according to him. THAT's what the real thing looks like...

That is profoundly inspiring. Thank you for sharing.

[3bob]

A true master has no need to make any claims or to give any super-duper signs.

 

I believe one could reflect on part of T.T.C. 38 as an example of such:

 

"High Virtue is non-virtuous;

Therefore it has Virtue.

Low Virtue never frees itself from virtuousness;

Therefore it has no Virtue.

 

High Virtue makes no fuss and has no private ends

to serve:

Low Virtue not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

 

High humanity fusses but has no private ends to serve:

High morality not only fusses but has private ends

to serve.

High ceremony fusses but finds no response;

Then it tries to enforce itself with rolled-up sleeves..."

[New Dawn Fades]

Santi, NewDawnFades, and GoldisHeavy's behavior in the KAP thread could possibly be covered by the above Gurdjieffian teaching methods.

 

One is a marketer, one is a scholar, and one is a realizer. The marketer claims divine connection, the scholar makes other claims , the realizer claims to be a student. The marketer is rude to his students, the scholar is rude to the innocent, and the realizer is a mirror which reflects rudeness back to the sender, something which doesn't happens with his few students, teachers, or fellow practitioners.

 

In a way Gurdjieff highlighted the weird Twilight Zone Catch-22 I'm caught in. In order to TRULY assess someone's Being (i.e. assess the person who hands out advice) I'd have to have attained a state of Realization higher than them. So in the meantime I admit..I AM going on faith and hope that they KNOW (if I accept their advice) - because I currently don't have the attainment of true realization - that is realization to know from a state of total absence of prior conditioning, unexamined presuppositions and triggers. There is the danger life will end up proving I made a wrong choice. But if I chose well I do believe far more can be attained with the guidance of a teacher than without one.

Edited December 22, 2009 by New Dawn Fades

[fiveelementtao]

never mind... wrong thread...

Edited December 22, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[jaloo]

There's this concept presented by Castaneda's Don Juan that applies to teachers using such methods -- a Petty Tyrant. The premise being that the Great Tyrant is reality itself -- that's who pushes us around sometimes with utmost brutality -- so to deal with that, one has to get training from Petty Tyrants. It's a prerequisite for handling reality in a reality-based fashion, not in an ideology-based manner that fails every time the Great Tyrant strikes, and many times a Petty Tyrant does too.

 

Excellent reminder about the petty tyrant. One of the few reasons I still come to TTB is because for me its filled with petty tyrants. My reactions to their posts or threads is what is interesting to me. Lots of grist for the mill.

 

I don't think that the caustic or combative posts here are done in the spirit of crazy wisdom, but instead are just the display of each persons own conditioning and kleshas.

Edited December 22, 2009 by jaloo

[forestofclarity]

A few notes:

 

1. G. said that one can never know the level of being of one who is higher than you. You can only tell those who are lower, because you've already been there.

 

2. There is a great story about the Buddha before he sat under the Bodhi tree. He called out the gods to come forth with the solution to the problems of life and suffering. There was no divine assistance coming.

 

Ultimately, we're on our own with the spiritual path. A teacher can point, or describe, but we still need to do the work ourselves. Even making wrong choices is a part of the learning experience.

 

In a way Gurdjieff highlighted the weird Twilight Zone Catch-22 I'm caught in. In order to TRULY assess someone's Being (i.e. assess the person who hands out advice) I'd have to have attained a state of Realization higher than them. So in the meantime I admit..I AM going on faith and hope that they KNOW (if I accept their advice) - because I currently don't have the attainment of true realization - that is realization to know from a state of total absence of prior conditioning, unexamined presuppositions and triggers. There is the danger life will end up proving I made a wrong choice. But if I chose well I do believe far more can be attained with the guidance of a teacher than without one.

[Vajrasattva]

Gurdjieff a great man & teacher for sure.

 

Please research his teachers from Naqshabandi aswell.

 

Peace & Happy Holidays.

 

s

[orb]

I read Irina Tweedie's book years ago and I felt he was exceptionally cruel to her. Does that make him a realized master? Not necessarily. She did comment in an interview that she accepted his harsh treatment. I still have trouble with this sort of behavior from teachers. In general, teachers that are abusive have unresolved psychological issues and may have been abused as children.

 

Something similar happened to me with a group of healers here in Santa Fe that nearly cost me my life! Although, I resent (putting it mildly) their harsh techniques, I did become stronger because of it. I don't recommend that path.

 

ralis

 

 

That harshness was beneficial for her 100% and probably "saved her life".

Gurdjieff wasn't abused as a child - his parents were remarcable!

The "mean" way he was treating his students was totally intentional. That is the essence of the G's method. It is a method designed for very few people.

Ralis you understood it right - you just didn't attribute the right value to it.

 

People always tried to compare his system to Taoism, Buddhism, Sufi, Zen etc...It's a total waste of time.

Gurdjieff has nothing to do with Taoism, Buddhism, Sufi, Zen - It's exactly the opposite!

His way will never calm you down but rather stir you up to the point that you will hate yourself and your life and that's the only way the real alchemy can occur.

 

If you became G's student he would make you feel miserable and completely desperate in 3 days, If you accept him as a teacher your entire body will start hurting and you will reach your limits of sanity but you could learn more in 3 days then in 3 years in any other school.

He will show you that you are "nothing" and you don't have any will and no integrity and no self!

It's a method of payment and sacrifice and a reality check - The harsh Zen method's are a vacation when compared to G's way.

He reverses the process that your mothers started.

When you are a baby you are infused with total comfort (that's what good mothers do) and that becomes the center of you life, 100% comfort and peace, cushions and pillows! Also there are answers and solutions to everything and very polite angels and spirits guard you and even GOD himself is totally blown away with how cute the baby is.

 

And if you know a little poem you get a tasty cookie. Even if you don't remember the stupid poem you still get the cookie - because you are already so smart - just a little shy perhaps...No child left behind.

Sometimes moms and paps are even convinced that the baby is some old soul and so if he is already so freaking advanced just give the poor guy a break. Do him a favor, put him through college - he deserves it.

 

The death issue is also taken care of, entirely. If you don't go to heaven, you reincarnate or some other comfortable bs, if you don't meditate then you believe and pray or sing on sundays and wear a very good looking cross around your neck (or a crystal, talisman bla bla bla) and remain assured that you are all set - for this life and the life after...... Sometimes you find a very loving guru or a super calm Taichi teacher that feeds you more of that priceless attention and therefore teaches you how to increase your sleep by serving you as a perfect example. He will even give you a TRANSMISSION which is basically a magic pill = less work on your side.

 

And that's how your last little chance of understanding anything in this life goes straight down the drain. Everything is given to us - don't worry just read the book it's all documented. There's a book for each question you might have.

 

Our education ensures that we don't DO anything in life - we just follow in the dead man's footsteps:

Go to school, go to college, get a perfect wife, get a house, make money, be nice to people stay away from negativity, stay calm, believe or meditate and be comfortable and peacefull for eternity and you are all set!

 

The comfort zone is what we are looking for all our lives and all your religions and meditations will give you even more comfort, both in theory and in practice. That's why it's not good to criticize anybody because you bother them. You can't disturb people's sleep. You have to praise them and bless them because you are doing good!

 

If the above summarizes your life and your goals and you want to keep your comfort then please stay away for Gurdjieff's teachings and Gurdjieff's schools because he will make sure all that goes away !!! The payment is very high and there's a lot of very real pain. He doesn't work with good angels - he works with his majesty Mr Devil himself, but only if you can get him inside yourself! That's the only way to work with G.

 

Ralis was very correct to recommend against it. Run away from it and forget about it while you can.

 

Edited December 24, 2009 by orb

[lino]

In terms of your last sentence, would you expound further? Examples? Are you saying that the internal (true nature) always matches the external actions?

 

 

ralis

 

 

Hmm... good question.

 

Well...assuming I'm understanding Gurdjieff properly (admittedly a big assumption) then I'd say yes. It's weird though because Gurdjieff often stressed what one actually needs in order to attain Awakening may not be at all what we think we see we need. So sometimes he could be exceedingly nasty and ugly-tempered to a student for example. But it was always with a purpose. If he was mean and ugly-tempered it was to "shock" that student into "awakening" to all that student's own hidden triggers, conditioning, pre-suppositions and prejudices, etc. As an example: One time, to a lady who was being overly fawning of him as a Guru he told her to pick up a bowl. She ended up burning her hands as the bowl was scalding hot. Not a very nice teacher, eh? But he had surmised this particular woman needed a physically damaging, nasty shock to hit her Centers and Awake that held her in vice grip. They kept her from really seeing what was going on - both with herself and Gurdjieff (as I understood the lesson).

 

In other words...Gurdjieff had no problem whatsoever displaying behavior that I've no doubt most people on this board would find reprehensible - *if* - such behavior was what was needed to jolt that student from being "asleep". Now people who have not attained at least to the same level as Gurdjieff won't be aware of all the reasons why he took such an extreme form of teaching.

 

What I noticed:

 

Santi, NewDawnFades, Lino and GoldisHeavy's behavior in the KAP thread could possibly be covered by the above Gurdjieffian teaching methods. Not always do they reply nice, kindly, generously, charitably or with loving-kindness. Now notice one's own reaction AS IT IS HAPPENING when reading their posts. That split-second reaction is a 3D "in the round" snapshot of the true state of one's Being. But a student first has to be watching himself/herself in a particular way to even see it. And as I understand it - Gurdjieff maintained this kind of constant self-monitoring (I liken it to being similar to Awareness Watching Awareness) is extremely difficult to maintain.

 

He's right. I've been trying to do it for several days and it is a freaking Herculean / Titanic task to stay in this awareness-watching-data-gathering state for more than a few minutes at best. Until I actually tried it I had no idea how difficult it is. I bet it would be difficult to do even for people whom have full-blown awakened Kundalini if they had never practiced it consistently before.

I have found it is easy as hell to criticize and oh-so-hard to fight that conditioning and trigger. But in fighting it (on the few occasions I've been successful) I got to see up close and personal just how controlled by an exterior trigger I really am. You saw how I failed to just watch in my prior post - I gave that list. *heavy sigh* It telegraphed the current State of my Being to any and all Awakened individuals whom might be bothering to hang out at TaoBums.

 

In a way Gurdjieff highlighted the weird Twilight Zone Catch-22 I'm caught in. In order to TRULY assess someone's Being (i.e. assess the person who hands out advice) I'd have to have attained a state of Realization higher than them. So in the meantime I admit..I AM going on faith and hope that they KNOW (if I accept their advice) - because I currently don't have the attainment of true realization - that is realization to know from a state of total absence of prior conditioning, unexamined presuppositions and triggers. There is the danger life will end up proving I made a wrong choice. But if I chose well I do believe far more can be attained with the guidance of a teacher than without one.

 

I'm not advanced and I'm still trudging through my own mud.