The difference between Therapy and Spiritual Practice?

[sean]

Hey, I'm curious what everyone thinks about the difference between Therapy and Spiritual Practice? Are they different? Are they similar? Do they intersect? Are their ultimate aims aligned?

 

Thanks,

Sean

[Cameron]

I was just thinking about this topic recently. I was actually having a conversation in a dream with someone about it I think last night or the night before.

 

My dreams have been insane lately..sometimes really good sometimes really fucking sick.

 

Here is what I have read. I think I first read this in the magazine "Tricycle:The Buddhist Review" like 10 or 11 years ago.

 

Basically what they said..and I was talking to someone about it in a dream last night or the night before..is therapy is working on the story of your life. That you were born in such and such a place at such and such a time and a and b happened to you and your Mom and Dad were loving or unloving or controlling or didn't care or whatever and you did this and that. And it is working on working those things out for you psycologically. So that you can feel better about the story of who you are.

 

I am not sure this is totally accurate I havent gotten into therapy and some teachers I respect alot like Ken Cohen seem to think therapy is a good thing but that was what the zen or Buddhist/Taoist dude was saying.

 

Now, spiritual practice, the article went on to say, is not working on the story but working on that thing that transcends the story. The thing that is unborn and does not die. You probably can get a sense of this listening to those Adyashanti retreat cd's that he is getting at trying to awaken you to something that is beyond your personality. Or your ego. Or the person that you are in this lifetime.

 

You "wake up" from the dream of the ego/seperate self identity that is a kind of prison for your personality. Then when you do this the personality you have is just a kind of funny(or not so funny) not self so creation that is pretty much held together through the minds discriminating activity. I can't explain it the way he can but basically it is way beyond just making you feel better about Mom and Dad or your childhood or your Wife and kids and job.

 

Not that that isn't important probably it is but probably one is way more profound then the other.

 

My guess.

 

Since we are on the topic..does anyone else get this really tense sense of contraction from people who are really into themselves or there own ego? It seems that those who are more awake have this more expanisive sense to their personality that isn't contracted into this something.

 

I got a sense of this from master Yoda hanging out over Thanksgiving but even some so called high level Buddhist or Taoists have this kind of contracting energy that is always sort of giving energy to the ego instead of always expanding out and opening to new possibiilites.

 

Not that I never "contract into my ego" myself but it is intresting how with more energy work I am starting to actually sense and experience how people do this on subtle or not so subtle levels.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Cameron

[Lozen]

I think therapy is more egocentric than spiritual practice. Therapy is about, like, how do I get out of patterns I keep repeating because of childhood issues or past experiences, to make my life more functional. Spiritual practice, for me, goes beyond that--it's not just how do I become more functional so I can work better, but how do I become more functional so I can help serve others. Therapy is supposed to be safe space, while spiritual practice pushed the boundaries that I feel comfortable in.

 

I suppose I should admit my bias, though, and that's that therapy has never gone deep enough for me, has never actually helped me break any patterns of behavior or made me feel anything other than being intensely analyzed. I don't know many people who I've seen actually really improve with therapy, to be honest.... In fact, I would venture to guess that not many therapists have been to the deep dark recesses and back. Sure, they've gone to school, read and studied a lot of theory, and been psychoanalyzed, but I don't think they went through the trials and tribulations that many spiritual leaders have. The good ones, that is.

 

And also I'll add that while it's easy to get sucked away into many spiritual paths, to jump from one practice to another while refusing to delve deeper, and to keep repeating the same patterns/cycles in different ways, in spiritual practices, ultimately I feel that nobody can tell me what it is I need to work on as strongly as I can feel it resonate in myself through spiritual work--be it dreamwork, issues that come up in meditation, or cycles I start to see as I see more clearly.

[Yoda]

I'm not into therapists or gurus... I've got enough shit to deal with on my own, thanks!

 

 

 

Cam,

 

When I'm negative I do feel "trapped" and "contracted" and when I'm feeling good I feel expansive and free. I like to think that feeling good=love=egolessness and feeling negative=ego. In that respect, kids are quite egoless even though they gun for the lolipop harder than adults do. Adults are too encased to give that lolipop a good chase.

 

About dreams, if dreams are spiritually charged but a bit too intense and this gets established as a pattern, that could be a sign you need to back off on the high energy stuff possibly. You might using Tao in a bottle to push it a little too aggressively. I think I may be doing that right now too.

 

-Yoda

[Cameron]

Well, I think what happened last night is I was drinking beer and took TIB which was not good for me. I basically was up all night. No more mixing TIB with alcohol.

 

BTW, I was implying that you were more on the expansive side than contracting. Though I am sure you have your moments like we all do.

Edited January 12, 2006 by Cameron

[sunshine]

Spiritual practice might make us face situations we need therapy for, bringing up emotional troubles etc. etc. etc. There might be practices in the spiritual circles that help release that stuff but practices themselve are only "spiritual" with the specific background... Somebody who has a background of proper therapy might be more balanced to start with spiritual practice...

 

to me, as most often, it is mainly a question of intent. Is Fusion itself a spiritual practice? Don'T think so. Some might consider it a specific form of therapy, while some psychotherapy might be highly "enlightening"...

 

there are many practices out there that lead one nowhere... neither in a therpeutic sense nor in a spiritual one...

 

I believe that a spiritual intent can have major advantage in a therapeutic healing sense. By focussing on something beyong the ego the ego can get released... but as we know: some so called spiritual people get stiff with their practice not evolving at all...

 

just some thoughts

[sean]

Great responses.

 

Cam that is a cool distinction. Working on the story vs. transcending the story. As humans we are natural creators and tellers of stories. As spiritual beings we are naturally something much more than these human creations.

 

Lozen, I like your distinctions also. Working on fixing the ego vs. acting as if you are not the center but a part of something much larger. Interesting about therapy not going deep enough. I've only just recently started doing therapy and I love it but maybe it's because I am going to it spiritually informed and fitting my experience into a larger framework instead of just "am I better yet?" I imagine some spiritual seekers could benefit from therapy though ... for example the passive-aggressive Buddhist types that you've mentioned having bad experiences with. Is meditation alone going to pull them out of that or could it even be exacerbating their narcissism? Something like a Buddhist informed group therapy might really help transcend social dysfunctions like this better than the cushion. What do you think?

 

Yoda, I figured on you not being into therapy ... but don't you see at least some intersection with the therapeutic intention and say, the passionate aspect of your bhakti that has you seeking sustainably good moods?

 

The word therapy itself comes from the Greek therapeia which meant "curing, healing", both of which tend to play a big role in spirituality. Are therapy and spirituality going in the same direction with one or the other just being better at different facets of the same work? Or are these distinctions mentioned (and perhaps others) significant enough that there will always be a divide between the two?

 

David Deida actually says some cool stuff about therapy in this talk of his I saw a clip of last month. Not sure if I agree, but it's an interesting distinction along similar lines as what you two are saying, Cam and Lozen. He says that therapy is all about getting functional. Making yourself work properly in the contexts you find yourself in. This is totally different, he says, than Yogic practice which is about polishing your lens so that Light can flow through you. So you can do Yogic practices and have Light just pouring through you into the world and be totally fucked up functionally ... therapeutically. And you can be completely functional and also completely opaque to letting Light shine through. He even goes so far as to say that they are not even that compatible ... very similar to what you are saying Lozen, that therapy is about getting safe whereas Yoga begins when you start pushing your boundaries ... when you get out of your own way and let Light manifest as it will, even if this means manifesting some "unsafe" craziness. He also makes a final distinction between therapy, yoga and spiritual practice which he says is not really a practice at all, more like a pre-existing realization that you already are nothing but Light. You already are 100% Light regardless of how functional or translucent your body is, it's all Light. And much like Adyashanti he doesn't think there is a whole lot you can really do to achieve this realization, it's more like an act of Grace.

 

I think his distinctions are really useful, but I also suspect that maybe they can inform a next wave of "therapy-yoga" that supports the balanced safety therapy may be seeking without getting too fascist about prohibiting the wild trippiness of a Yogic outburst. In other words, something that can sustain brilliant, wild artists and teachers that can push the envelope (like Chogyam Trungpas and Jim Morrisons) but keep them grounded enough to not drink themselves to death. Is this having cake and eating it?

 

Sean

 

[edit]sunshine, I posted this before you posted your thoughts. I dig your insights there. Especially about the possibility of an organic relationship between therapy and spirituality.

[freeform]

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Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[sean]

I think there is one simple, yet hugely important distinction between therapy and spirituality. (btw I'm taking 'therapy' as some sort of psychoanalysis-derived practice). Therapy concentrates on all your problems and aims to find their cause. Whereas spirituality (imo) aims at something beyond even the notion of problems.

But what is the intention of most people who start exploring spirituality? Isn't it still to get past your problems? In my perception, most people don't even get into therapy let alone spirituality until some major shit has gone wrong, or some crisis just won't resolve itself.

 

Personally I'm with Yoda... If you concentrate on constantly finding problems - then you will, it's that simple.

Hmmm... but what about people who just have problems and don't need to look that hard? Would you tell someone with severe post-traumatic stress who has night terrors, is cutting and drinks themself into a blackout everyday to stop looking for problems and just do some five animal frolics? I think a lot of people's problem is more that they don't introspect about their problems, they just try to pretend they don't exist or that they will go away magically.

 

It's like giving yourself the new-years resolution: "I'm going to quit smoking" - that statement concentrates on the problem... you might give yourself these affirmations to help you out "I dont want to smoke - smoking makes me ill, I dont want to smoke... etc" and all your doing is concentrating on smoking and how deprived you are. It's like if some one says "dont think of smoking" you have to think about it to stop thinking about it (if you know what i mean). When a captain of a ship sets out on his voyage he doesn't think "ok I dont want to go to africa, and i want to avoid icebergs" - s/he would have a specific destination to aim for (rather than things s/he wants to avoid) - I think spirituality does that.

But the first thing almost any therapy book on creating affirmations would tell you is to avoid negatives and affirm the direction you want to go in.

 

Besides, what is the 'perfect psychological state' do therapists know what this is? do they themselves have such a state? I doubt it.

This actually relates my post in the Chia thread about not needing to be perfect to help out.. A good therapist is just a good healer IMO, it doesn't mean they have to be perfect or have access to divine revelation. Just they are skilled at creating a space for positive change.

 

I'm probably being pretty biased, but I've known far too many people who've been addicted to therapy (I think going to the same dude for 5 years and not feeling any better in general, constitutes a failure). I've had friends who'se parents are well known psychoanalysts - one such friend had the most messed up family (junkie sisters, agrophobic mother, and a dad with not an ounce of emotion (he was the psychoanalyst) - he did, however have very complex-sounding names for all manner of 'problems', although naming the problems didn't seem to help his clients or his family)

Do these failures mean that the whole concept of therapy has failed, or just that their specific style of therapy is ineffective, or that maybe just examples of unskilled therapists, or really troubled individuals?

 

There are other methods of self-improvement that can sometimes get chucked under the general term 'therapy' and some of them can be helpfull. I prefer NLP - since an NLP practitioner does not recognise such things as 'psychological problems', they think that everyone functions correctly, according to their past conditioning -

But is NLP an innovative therapy or something else? In my opinion, NLP, hypnosis, EFT, nutrition, orgone, even many so-called spiritual techniques ... all these alternatives are still therapies ... in the same way that Luther was still Christian.

 

But I think spirituality (or specifically Taoist Alchemy) is a more effective method to change your life in a general way.

So there is that intention to change again that seems common to why people explore therapy and spirituality. I mean what is the real difference in intention behind Fusion and any other therapy? And I don't mean therapy as you are defining it, as some stuffy, academic Freudian guy, I mean therapy as a movement... it's very diverse. I think it's pretty clear that at least some of Chia and Winn's teachings are not ancient, passed down techniques of taoist alchemy. So what are they?

 

So Sean, if you're starting therapy, I suggest you tread with caution - therapy can be a great source of food for your monkey mind, so can get pretty addictive. If you want to get something out of it I suggest you decide exactly what it is that you want to get from your sessions - and make it a positive statement (so rather than "I want to quit smoking" you could have "I want to live healthily and constantly improve the health of my lungs"). And always pay attention and notice if you are actually getting what you want!

Again, this is affirmations 101 ... I think almost any therapist worth her salt would be aware of this. The original theory for why we should create affirmations in the positive was based on a Freudian therapeutic model btw, that the subconscious mind does not hear negatives, it's just a child that moves toward pictures. I appreciate the warning, but my therapist is cool as shit, the best listener I've ever met ... I've had some powerful, spiritual openings with the space that she has helped me create.

 

In a lot of ways I think the modern field of therapy was just an attempt to make spiritual aspiration/healing wisdom survive the scientific revolution. Secularize in the face of the postmodernism or perish. I mean check out some of the shit Jung was doing, he was damn near a shaman. The fact that therapy has at least attempted to use a scientific approach has produced what is IMO a diverse, powerful branch of healing practices and methodologies that I think will continue to merge with time-tested spiritual techniques to form the actualization technologies of the future.

 

Sean

[Lozen]

Yeah, I agree, there are definitely times when therapy is helpful and needed. Like the guy I know who was basically schizophrenic and people told him it was because he had bad karma he needed to burn (he needed medication, methinks), or people who are suicidal or homicidal and this comes up through their spiritual practice.

 

But I don't know if it would work for passive-agressive Buddhists. They are so hung up on their religion, that if the therapist didn't agree with it or thought it was unhealthy, the client might not even hear them. Or they

would seek out a Buddhist therapist, who would obviously have an agenda.

 

To be honest, I think a large percentage of spiritual seekers never addressing underlying issues that come up except for on a sort of dismissive level, or they are into learning secrets or feeling cool new sensations or doing fancy yoga postures for fun and not to actually help humanity. How many people do you know who are constantly talking about compassion for all sentient beings that have never done any volunteer work for an hour in their lives? It is pretty empty, and a lot of spiritual seekers I think can be pretty empty-- they see a big divide between their "spiritual life" which they are addicted to, and their "real life" which they hate and want to leave to experience eternal bliss.

 

I guess my bottom line is that I think a good spiritual practice will include a teacher or guide who will help make sure you are doing the work to get you to where you need to be to help others, which includes being a functional human being, but goes beyond that and needs to also include getting past one's comfort zones. Good teachers or guides should ask a lot of their students, including making them do things that are difficult, and that the student might not want to do but would be very good for them. They should also get past their comfort zones. And whether you're seeking therapy, spiritual practices, or a combination of both, you need to make sure that the emphasis is not JUST on your own ego, where you are intensely scrutinizing yourself and not changing at all, or changing ridiculously slowly. Lastly, I think a good spiritual practice should be personally tailored and should also combine the emotional and physical as well as the spiritual, so that you are not trying to meditate away schizophrenia, but you're not dismissing your personal dysfunctional tendencies as simply a "liver imbalance" (or whatever) and realize where CHOICE fits in there and what changes you need to make on the physical and emotional planes, not just the physical. Because ultimately, doing qi gong or meditating or using herbs or whatEVER, if you're not dealing with the underlying issue on all levels, is almost as bad as having a drink or smoking a j to stuff it down further.

[sunshine]

>>But what is the intention of most people who start exploring spirituality? Isn't it still to get past your problems?<<

 

I, speaking from experience, felt that there must be more to life than what I saw, felt & experienced. That my life wasn't perfect allowed me to draw that conclusion. But that didn't yet mean I was trying to solve my troubles. Far from it: I tried to run away from them trying to just bypass them... I today believe to know that without solving your down-to-Earth troubles the spiritual route might lead nowhere if it doesn'T include helpful techniques to allow you to handle your day to day stuff...

 

and therapy sure is not just psychoanalysis-derived practice, freeform: Everything that helps one to solve troubles one has problems with is therapy.

 

>>I think a lot of people's problem is more that they don't introspect about their problems, they just try to pretend they don't exist or that they will go away magically. <<

 

Problem with cdertain therapies that help you "see" or "understand" your problems is that they do not help you to overcome it. Just "knowing" what the difficulty is does not make you able to handle it properly, although it might. In EFT (Emotional Freedom Technique) they try to dissolve the root of the problem without you necessarily needing tio understand it... you just have to be aware of the trouble... the last cause for why a certain instance has lead you to react or feel in such and such a way might never be found...

 

so:

1st step: be aware that you have some sort of issue

2nd: dissolve it with any technique available (you might have to try several)

 

>>A good therapist is just a good healer<<

 

yep. While there are techniques that might in general be of higher success rate than others one and the same technique in the hand of different people might yield different results...

 

>>I mean what is the real difference in intention behind Fusion and any other therapy? <<

 

I think they are just not labled therapy because they are viewed as a step towards a higher goal. Who learns Fusion to deal with emotions? Very likely only those who want to clear their path towards higher energetic practice... and one thing to point at: Fusion is mainly something you have to do on your own and practice consistently while usual therapy always needs a person who at least functions as a catalyst...

 

>>In a lot of ways I think the modern field of therapy was just an attempt to make spiritual aspiration/healing wisdom survive the scientific revolution.<<

 

Don'T think so. I personally feel that they often took something that they did not understand the full impact of but found it useful for solving troubles... if you only have the intent to help someone deal with their emotions you just do that. If you teach them the same technique with the intent of clearing the way for something more powerful that comes afterwards, you do exactly that...

 

Harry

[Yoda]

My name is Yoda and I'm an addict...

 

Seriously though, I'm fine with people getting therapy and I do think that people can be a good influence on others and that some people are very gifted at this sort of thing and it's all about being groovy and if that involves things besides sex, drugs, and rock n roll then go with it. It's good that you found somebody groovy. I think other people are helpful with reframing conceptual patterns which can be useful.

 

I think the word meditation has it's root meaning "to heal" as well.

 

Grooviness by ANY means necessary including paxil, killing your enemy, sleeping with your sister, etc is the way to go. I'd draw the line at Mom, but that's just me.

 

-Yoda

[freeform]

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Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[sean]

Lot's of great meat here.

 

Here's some more random questions I've been brainstorming ...

 

What if the stories of Enlightenments and Masters is just another mythology ... one that we find more palatable than stories of Heaven and God ... and more mystical and exciting than mere Happiness and Wholeness? Are we taking our stories too seriously? Are we going a roundabout way to our ultimate drive for some reason?

 

What if spiritual teachers of the past were just passionate, highly skilled therapists that merely used the framework of religious beliefs they found themselves in to help themselves and others heal and evolve?

 

What if spiritual paths are just sophisticated attempts at finding reliable methods of attaining the perpetual human quest of sustainable, long-term pleasure, free of suffering?

 

How is the repeated modern Taoist emphasis on balance different than the therapeutic emphasis on safety? Is Taoist Alchemy as presented by, say, Winn, more like therapy than practices like Tantric Buddhism and Kundalini Yoga that tend to push you into scarier, unbalanced places?

 

If spiritual practice is really "higher" than therapy, why does it seem like spirituality detached from groundedness (ie, secular reason, therapy, etc.) so often turns to insanity and even violent, politicized religious ideology that litters history with atrocity after atrocity?

 

What do you think is the ultimate goal of spiritual practice? What is the purpose of "transcendence"? Is it to be free of suffering? Is it just to stop being so selfish and to genuinely care about and help others? If so then what are you helping others do or be or feel ultimately? Bliss? Freedom from suffering? (It all seems to come back to pleasure / pain, doesn't it?).

 

Are we "special" or somehow "more evolved" for overtly studying and practicing so-called spiritual practices? Should everyone be studying and practicing these things, or are some/most people where they are supposed to be just doing what they do? What about well-adjusted, relatively happy, generous people living an "ordinary" secular life ... do they need spirituality for something?

 

Is a core strand of apparently irresolvable discontentment a pre-req to spiritual seeking?

 

 

Sean

[MatthewQi]

Sean,

 

I haven't read all of the thread just your latest post... my comments (please don't take me too seriously, just my perspective)...

 

Modern psychology, as you may know, is deeply rooted in Jung's understanding of what he learned from "The Secrects of the Golden Flower" and the "I Ching". Although some say he didn't totally get it, he no doubt influenced modern psychology. It is interesting that it is rooted in the ancient understanding of the Unconscious.

 

"What if the stories of Enlightenments and Masters is just another mythology ... one that we find more palatable than stories of Heaven and God ... and more mystical and exciting than mere Happiness and Wholeness? Are we taking our stories too seriously? Are we going a roundabout way to our ultimate drive for some reason?

 

What if spiritual teachers of the past were just passionate, highly skilled therapists that merely used the framework of religious beliefs they found themselves in to help themselves and others heal and evolve?"

 

Mystical experiencs are very real yet subjective to the experiencer. Yet, there is an underlying common thread which is what spiritual practice is pointing to in general. Religions have been typically formed after someone has had these experiences and what these people share with the rest of the population.

 

"What if spiritual paths are just sophisticated attempts at finding reliable methods of attaining the perpetual human quest of sustainable, long-term pleasure, free of suffering?"

 

To those who have experience "it" there is no question yet at the same time there is no way to prove it to anyone else - exception being IMO that one can sense attainment in another in the right conditions.

 

"How is the repeated modern Taoist emphasis on balance different than the therapeutic emphasis on safety? Is Taoist Alchemy as presented by, say, Winn, more like therapy than practices like Tantric Buddhism and Kundalini Yoga that tend to push you into scarier, unbalanced places?"

 

I can't say about the therapy part of your brainstorm, but approaching "it" can be very scary regardless if the teacher or path says it is a gentler way or not.

 

"If spiritual practice is really "higher" than therapy, why does it seem like spirituality detached from groundedness (ie, secular reason, therapy, etc.) so often turns to insanity and even violent, politicized religious ideology that litters history with atrocity after atrocity?"

 

It is only "higher" in that it is the source which last time I looked, is responsible for all the good and BAD in this world. Instability in a person can be magnified when coming into the "Divine" aspect of ourselves.

 

"What do you think is the ultimate goal of spiritual practice? What is the purpose of "transcendence"? Is it to be free of suffering? Is it just to stop being so selfish and to genuinely care about and help others? If so then what are you helping others do or be or feel ultimately? Bliss? Freedom from suffering? (It all seems to come back to pleasure / pain, doesn't it?)."

 

The ultimate goal is to return to Source. This will happen naturally imo whether it is in this lifetime or not (and I am not necessarily saying I believe in reincarnation). Spiritual practice speeds up the process. Although becoming less selfish and more caring, etc. may occur naturally, if it isn't it is pointless. If it doesn't happen naturally, I am not sure that it really matters. Taoists believe in Ming or your destiny and fulfilling that. BEcoming Zen Rhen or your authentic self, whatever that may be is more important than imposing cultural stereotypes about what spiritual behavior is.

 

"Are we "special" or somehow "more evolved" for overtly studying and practicing so-called spiritual practices? Should everyone be studying and practicing these things, or are some/most people where they are supposed to be just doing what they do? What about well-adjusted, relatively happy, generous people living an "ordinary" secular life ... do they need spirituality for something?"

 

No, I don't think so as I believe there is a natural process in the world that works the way it works. Just like some flowers bloom and some never get the chance. But both of these flowers are part of nature and have the same root, so I don't think there is reason to worry.

 

"Is a core strand of apparently irresolvable discontentment a pre-req to spiritual seeking?"

 

In my case it was, in a lot of other people I know it was, but I have also heard of spontaneous things happening to people who never had that pre-req.

 

All the best to you! I hope it is understood that I am not saying this is the final word on this stuff just my thoughts...

 

Matt

[freeform]

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Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[Yoda]

A friend of mine once said that therapy and self improvement is like a woman going to the gym everyday to gradually build up to lifting 50 lbs, but when her child is stuck under a car she has no trouble picking the car up. That spiritual growth is about lifting the car up, not about lifting the 50lbs.

 

With extreme bhakti to "save all sentient beings" being the deciding factor. Obviously this story supports a very elitist perspective of spirituality like you see in Bodri and the Tibetans and so forth. I think that level of passion is a wonderful thing, but not necessary for a full spiritual life.

 

Just living on this planet, breathing the air, reading Cosmo, etc is a very spiritual thing. Spirituality is inescapable. Spirituality and therapy are the same thing in my mind. I just personally prefer 'teachers' over gurus and therapists.

 

Cam made a good point, that the era of gurus is over. The current wave of interest in esoteric spirituality just wants results and doesn't really have time for involved guruing.

[voice]

For sure, most psychotherapy is egocentric, because many people have a poorly functioning ego. And, yes, many problems are rooted deeper than the ego and so psychotherapy by itself won't get it done. But, a growing number of psychotherapists recognize the continuum/web of being, and so realize that combinations of egocentric, physical and spiritual practices need be engaged in for the resolution of "problems".

 

Ken Wilber recognizes the value of psychotherapy because he believes that without a healthy and well functioning ego, spiritual practices will rest on an unstable structure. Spiritual practice often exposes ego/character problems, which prompts what Wilber calls "descent in service of the ego" - going into the dark depths of magical/pre-egoic thinking, and integrating it with the light of rational and trans-rational experience. He goes into this in many books, but I read about it in Sex, Ecology, Spirituality

 

John Welwood, a Buddhist psychotherapist, also writes about the need for psychotherapy in Toward a Psychology of Awakening. From the Amazon review "Have you ever noticed that self-described spiritual people are not necessarily all that easy to be with? John Welwood has a term for what often happens--spiritual bypassing. This is when a person reaches for the stars while forgetting about the goop on his shoes." I recently ordered the book. He is also involved in the Focusing practice that I engage with, as it subtly integrates the psychotherapeutic and spiritual.

 

Chris

(whose really proud of himself for integrating Amazon links! )

[sean]

Really enjoyed these latest responses a lot. It's interesting to see the different angles here.

"Have you ever noticed that self-described spiritual people are not necessarily all that easy to be with? John Welwood has a term for what often happens--spiritual bypassing. This is when a person reaches for the stars while forgetting about the goop on his shoes." I recently ordered the book. He is also involved in the Focusing practice that I engage with, as it subtly integrates the psychotherapeutic and spiritual.

I think this is one of the big problems I see as well. Mysticism, magick, spiritual cultivation ... because of how personal and hard to quantify they are, can easily become the biggest ego-trip of all. It's a common stereotype that many so-called spiritual types are just self-absorbed to the point of narciccism and spiritual practice just further feeds their ego and neurosis. Which is one of the reasons I find even just common therapy so useful. For it's typically rational, sensory-based groundedness. Maybe it's also why I find a similarity between Taoism and therapy, is that both refuse to ignore the so-called "lower" cauldrons. It's possible some therapy (and maybe even some taoism) is so focused on the lower cauldrons that it neglects the big picture of the higher spiritual calling, but even so if you know that going in you can utilize their specialization on "lower" healing and functionality to build a healthy, durable vehicle for your spiritual cultivation. And then there is no difference between cultivation and therapy and between cultivation and lot's of other things really (cooking, walking, zen and the art of everything, etc.) because it's all begins to align with and become whole with your highest spiritual purpose.

[sunshine]

Sean,

 

you might be interested in the work of Dr. M.:

 

www.bodymindhealing.com

[Cameron]

It's so interesting when you start to cultivate and become more aware, awake, conscious whatever and then can basically be more with your feelings.

 

I have never done therapy as I said so can't comment on how it may be helpful but it's like just being aware on a day to day basis of how emotional trauma arises and how to be with it and give it whatever attention it deserves or let it go or whatever it needs to do.

 

Like just now, I am hanging out with my grandparents who are visiting from NY. And my grandmother who of course is very old fashioned and very family oriented goes why havent you gotten married? This miscellaneous family member of yours has gotten married and I am angry your not married yet.

 

So, forget that I havent met the woman yet that I would actually want to legally marry and live with and spend my life with, forger that for now, just the raw emotion of someone telling me they are angry at me that I havent done someting in my life I am supposed to. And it's not that often you here that, but it's this whole useless guilt trip some parents, grandparents etc lay on there kids. Your not good enough, you havent achived such and such. Probably when your younger you take all that critisizm and either intenralize it or go to war with the attacker or provoker or whatever but now it's like I just sit and smile and go yeah ok. Don't even give any energy to this critisizm of my life by a family member who loves me but really has no clue. So I can sit and be with the emotion and then go home and do a few minutes of intu flow and process it.

 

I guess if I was in therapy I would go my grandmother is unhappy with me because I am 30 and not married so I am not a good boy or whatever. And maybe he would ask me how do I feel about it? Probably there is some anger there, some animosity that someone would be upset at me for not being on some percieved bullshit time clock of theres. The fact that I would just sit and smile at whatever instead of make a strong point that I am in no rush whatsoever to get married. And even hold the possibilty that I won't get married and defiently won't get married under any percieved pressure.

 

So after I said all that I would pay my $100 or whatever?

 

I'll just pop a Tao in a Bottle smile and try to let it go.

 

Actually whats so bad about having emotions be as they are to begin with? Or is the therapy giving you a sort of intellectual understanding of your realationships you would miss otherwise?

 

Cam

Edited January 18, 2006 by Cameron

[sunshine]

Or is the therapy giving you a sort of intellectual understanding of your realationships you would miss otherwise?

Cam

 

Yep. A good therapist can help you understand & see things about you, your life, your relationhip to others you yourself can not... further he can be your Tao in a bottle or be the one teaching you what you yourself either would have to search & pay for or never find...

[freeform]

.

Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[sunshine]

>>A good friend can do the same... although they wont earn much money doing it <<

 

Yeah. But for how long??? And can she/he really do that in most instances without either putting themselves into a dangerous position or one oneself putting the friendship into danger. The realiotnshio of friends, however good it may seem, is always a lot more fragile as the "relationship" between a therapist (as a "stranger") and a client...

 

>>I'm still a little confused as to what 'therapy' means to you guys: As Sean said: "NLP, hypnosis, EFT, nutrition, orgone, even many so-called spiritual techniques ... all these alternatives are still therapies" - so if you include nutrition and orgone therapy under the umbrela title, would beauty, massage, chiropractic therapy also count? That's a very broad range of very different modalities so if the word "therapy" covers all of those then it would be pretty hard to find some type of personal development system/tool that doesn't fit under that word.<<

 

I do think the word "therapy" gets the meaning by the "search" or "intent".

 

Take NLP for example: do you want to learn it in order to have a technique at your hand to better deal with people? Or do you want to learn it to maybe overcome your feeling of inadequacy...

 

different, isn't it?

 

Take EFT: do you learn EFT in order to become a better performer? Or do you specifically learn it because you want to overcome your long distant emotional traumas?

 

different again, I think...

 

take massage: you get one because you want to just feel more relaxed, or do you get a specific massage that on intent releases bodily stored traumas?

 

different...

 

so: am I "mentally masturbating" here?

[sean]

The way I was thinking of the word therapy when I started the thread was anything that falls under the very broad intention to heal. I was curious how this intention to heal, if taken to the highest development it is capable of, is similar to and/or distinct from the deepest meaning of spiritual practice, whatever you may define that as. The word therapy can conjure up images of traditional psychotherapy for many. I enjoy that aspect of therapy also, but it's only one style of healing.

 

Cam, in the case with your grandmother you probably wouldn't waste a psychotherapy session bringing that up because you don't seem stuck on it at all. It came, maybe slightly annoyed you, you dealt with it, grinned and it passed. Usually you bring up stuff in psychotherapy that is pressing, that you are having trouble with, that you can't see past and you want to bring an outside, more or less impartial observer's eyes to. It's the "outside" and "more or less impartial" that is a big part of what you pay for. You can't really use your friends/lovers for this kind of therapy IMO.

 

Like I said, IMO a psychotherapist is not much different than having any kind of coach. Part of their job is really just to simply be a source of encouragement for your progress. And then also they hopefully have some degree of specialization in the issues you are bringing to them. So obviously you are not going to go to a psychoanalyst to help improve your jiu-jitsu guard passes. You will go to a Brazilian jiu-jitsu expert who will watch your game carefully and make suggestions that, hopefully, over time, will show you ineffective patterns that you would have had trouble discovering from mere self-analysis, books, videos, etc. This is the other part of what you pay them for.

 

Cam, again with the case with your grandmother, and probably many other issues that come in your life ... you deal with stuff like this fine on your own and don't feel like you need an analytical mode of therapy to help. Maybe you prefer your own natural therapeutic healing mechanisms you've picked up and refined over the years, or, as you said, some Intu-Flow and Tao in a Bottle ... both of which can also be considered forms of therapy ... physical therapies that holistically support mental, emotional (and maybe even spiritual) health.

 

So it all goes back to the can of worms ... Are therapy and spirituality going in different directions, bound to split off at some stage of the game? Or is spirituality the ultimate flowering of this therapeutic impulse to heal. The highest medicine for the deepest wound.

 

Sean