Igniting Others

[Lucky7Strikes]

There are many lost souls (friends) around me, who do not know what to do or what direction to turn to. They are immersed in perpetual fear, ever-present loneliness, both physical and emotional pain...drugs, alcohol...man, you all know what I'm talking about.

 

How do I give them the happiness I have found through "spirituality?" How do I ask them to make the sacrifice to let go of the habitual ways of living? I have asked them to question, inquire, I have pushed them forcefully at times, and gently coaxed them at others. Sometimes I see him/her genuinely interested, but at the end of the day they return to a familiar territory.

 

Is it arrogant of me to wish that they follow a similar path as I have? Should I push books into their hands? What do I do and what can I do? Is the only way to wait?

 

I feel that these descriptions are unnecessary. I know many of you here have felt similarly.

 

 

Help from the bums would be appreciated. _/\_. .

Edited December 23, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[buscon]

Hi,

 

I've got a similar situation, but I'm not so worried about it: I think that everyone needs his right time for a "spiritual" choice, so I don't feel like forcing people with my new discoveries.

On the other hand, continue to talk about your interesting experiences - you'll be an example, a reference for someone who wants to change somehow but doesn't know how

 

My advice is simple: continue to live your enriched life, follow you path and give an alternative to others - it's quite easy if they are your friends and that's already a lot!

Then it's up to every single person to decide what to do.

 

Cheers

[hagar]

There is, and I see: many lost souls (friends), who do not know what to do or what direction to turn to. They are immersed in perpetual fear, ever-present loneliness, both physical and emotional pain...drugs, alcohol...man, you all know what I'm talking about.

 

How do I give them the happiness I have found through "spirituality?" How do I ask them to make the sacrifice to let go of the habitual ways of living? I have asked them to question, inquire, I have pushed them forcefully at times, and gently coaxed them at others. Sometimes I see him/her genuinely interested, but at the end of the day they return to a familiar territory.

 

Is it arrogant of me to wish that they follow a similar path as I have? Should I push books into their hands? What do I do and what can I do? Is the only way to wait?

 

I feel that these descriptions are unnecessary. I know many of you here have felt similarly.

 

 

Help from the bums would be appreciated. _/\_. .

 

Embody the grace that they are seeking through their dysfunctional ways.

 

And to realize that, let go of any ideas you may have about them or yourself.

 

But the best is just to discard your spiritual self, and just be their friend completely.

 

I've got some friends that are or were sick, neurotic or both. The worst thing I ever did was throw my "solutions" in their face. At one point, I convinced my brother to use the last money he had to go get a healing from my teacher. He did not benifit very much because he felt obligated, and his fears and reluctance closed him up. After that we had a huge argument, and it took some time to make amends.

In my spiritual "career", this is probably my lowest point, and I was very ashamed.

 

Sirituality is really a disease. necessary or not, it needs to be cured, and left behind, so that we may start living for real.

 

h

[goldisheavy]

Is it arrogant of me to wish that they follow a similar path as I have?

 

It is indeed arrogant of you.

Edited December 23, 2009 by goldisheavy

[That Guy]

I think you can try and poke their reality bubble, just make them see the possibility of their being more to the world than they think, and if they want they'll pursue it further. Show the the John Chang video

[Lucky7Strikes]

Embody the grace that they are seeking through their dysfunctional ways.

 

And to realize that, let go of any ideas you may have about them or yourself.

 

But the best is just to discard your spiritual self, and just be their friend completely.

 

I've got some friends that are or were sick, neurotic or both. The worst thing I ever did was throw my "solutions" in their face. At one point, I convinced my brother to use the last money he had to go get a healing from my teacher. He did not benifit very much because he felt obligated, and his fears and reluctance closed him up. After that we had a huge argument, and it took some time to make amends.

In my spiritual "career", this is probably my lowest point, and I was very ashamed.

 

Sirituality is really a disease. necessary or not, it needs to be cured, and left behind, so that we may start living for real.

 

h

 

Thank you Hagar.

 

It is indeed arrogant of you.

 

Yes, it probably is.

[bindo]

It is indeed arrogant of you.

Agreed.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Hi,

 

I've got a similar situation, but I'm not so worried about it: I think that everyone needs his right time for a "spiritual" choice, so I don't feel like forcing people with my new discoveries.

On the other hand, continue to talk about your interesting experiences - you'll be an example, a reference for someone who wants to change somehow but doesn't know how

 

My advice is simple: continue to live your enriched life, follow you path and give an alternative to others - it's quite easy if they are your friends and that's already a lot!

Then it's up to every single person to decide what to do.

 

Cheers

Yes, I think this abides for those who you spend a lot of time with. And for those I rarely bring up spiritual issues directly.

 

But it really isn't like that for some people I am close to. Due to work and school, it's difficult to meet up with hometown friends except holidays and vacation, and every time I see them, it is rather like this: .

Edited December 23, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[forestofclarity]

I think this is a fairly common stage of practice. Many people at this point go into the pushy route, and end up turning people off to spirituality. The key is to learn timing: when to say something, and when to say nothing. This can only come with experience.

 

My general rule of thumb is let people ask if they want to, or mention these things only if relevant to the situation. Certainly there is no one size fits all spirituality.

 

Is it arrogant of me to wish that they follow a similar path as I have? Should I push books into their hands? What do I do and what can I do? Is the only way to wait?

[Lucky7Strikes]

I think this is a fairly common stage of practice. Many people at this point go into the pushy route, and end up turning people off to spirituality. The key is to learn timing: when to say something, and when to say nothing. This can only come with experience.

 

My general rule of thumb is let people ask if they want to, or mention these things only if relevant to the situation. Certainly there is no one size fits all spirituality.

 

But when the person is self-destructive under the idea that he/she has no choice, so many burdens...and there's no one around to lift him/her up...

 

I don't know. .

 

[forestofclarity]

In this case, maybe it is better to be a friend than a teacher.

 

But when the person is self-destructive under the idea that he/she has no choice, so many burdens...and there's no one around to lift him/her up...

 

I don't know. .

 

[Aetherous]

But the best is just to discard your spiritual self, and just be their friend completely.

 

I agree. Spirituality isn't about becoming someone great, it's about really living your life. Raw...without filters and false limitations.

 

I disagree with calling you arrogant for wanting to help your friend.

 

There's no easy answer. I'm in the same situation and don't know what to do. What makes the most sense is to just share when asked to share, and that's all. It's hard to share with people close to you, because they know you and your quirks, so they are less likely to take you seriously (spiritual people are usually thought of as flakes who are trying to escape their reality)...plus they also aren't the same as you. A circle of friends needs different characters, so there will be one person who is into spiritual stuff and the rest will take on different roles. So, sometimes it's just not for them.

[fiveelementtao]

But when the person is self-destructive under the idea that he/she has no choice, so many burdens...and there's no one around to lift him/her up..

I understand your desire to help. But I think you may be mistaken about a couple of things... "when the person is self-destructive under the idea that he/she has no choice" You answered your own question here... the person is self destructive. That in itself is a choice. Think about how you became willing to follow a spiritual path. It was your choice. When someone feels they have no choice, they are operating out of a victim mentality. And, having suffered with that quite a bit in my life, i can say from experience, that it was a choice to look at myself and the world that way. If somebody feels like a victim it is because they are choosing to feel that way. It may take some real effort to change that mentality, so I am not trying to minimize it.

"there's no one around to lift him/her up..' Yes there is. The Infinite power of the Universe is there to lift them up. But they have to be willing to ask for it and be willing to do what is necessary to follow the Universe's direction to get out of whatever mess they are in..

You also assume that these people want to go through the necessary personal growth to enjoy the spiritual path you are on. I am willing to bet that they do not want to go through the pain of growth that your path requires.

Bottom line is.. It is very sad that your friends are where they are, but it is their choice and their karma. we don't know the karmic lessons that they need to learn. By "saving" them from their pain, you may be taking away very needed life experiences for their spiritual growth.

You can be an example and if they want to change, they will ask you. Outside of that, it is beyond your power. If this is a real issue for you, I would suggest a 12 step group like Al-Anon. Because needing to save others from addiction is an addiction in itself...

[Pero]

What do I do and what can I do?

 

There's nothing you can do really, except be there if you want. Be an example on how to live maybe.

People can only change themselves. No matter how much you try to change someone it won't happen until they decide to change. You can show them a way but you can't make them truly follow it. And forcing someone can often create just the opposite effect you wanted.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I understand your desire to help. But I think you may be mistaken about a couple of things... "when the person is self-destructive under the idea that he/she has no choice" You answered your own question here... the person is self destructive. That in itself is a choice. Think about how you became willing to follow a spiritual path. It was your choice. When someone feels they have no choice, they are operating out of a victim mentality. And, having suffered with that quite a bit in my life, i can say from experience, that it was a choice to look at myself and the world that way. If somebody feels like a victim it is because they are choosing to feel that way. It may take some real effort to change that mentality, so I am not trying to minimize it.

"there's no one around to lift him/her up..' Yes there is. The Infinite power of the Universe is there to lift them up. But they have to be willing to ask for it and be willing to do what is necessary to follow the Universe's direction to get out of whatever mess they are in..

 

You need options, realistic option, for to have choices. It has nothing to do with victim mentality, but has everything to do with how one decides to perceive the meaning and purpose of life. Most people live for pleasures, or for goals which they have never truly considered, and day to day momentary escapes carry them through whether you are a junkie or a household mother. And some do not know a way out of it, they believe in being a carbon life form....a pile of rolling dirt born to survive.

 

How do I tell this materialistic person: oh, yes, the Infinite power of the Universe will lift you up! Ask! Do you see the dilemma here? No one listens to such "crap."

 

You also assume that these people want to go through the necessary personal growth to enjoy the spiritual path you are on. I am willing to bet that they do not want to go through the pain of growth that your path requires.

Bottom line is.. It is very sad that your friends are where they are, but it is their choice and their karma. we don't know the karmic lessons that they need to learn. By "saving" them from their pain, you may be taking away very needed life experiences for their spiritual growth.

You can be an example and if they want to change, they will ask you. Outside of that, it is beyond your power. If this is a real issue for you, I would suggest a 12 step group like Al-Anon. Because needing to save others from addiction is an addiction in itself...

 

Personal growth...no, I think the pain is in being left in abject darkness...And to go day after day imprisoned by the illusions of emotions and past memories. Dragging on and on....

 

Yes, maybe I just am addicted to feeling falsely compassionate and wanting to share even a bit of what I have. But, is it? Is it really beyond my power? .

 

I don't know. Perhaps it's just better to shut up and be a friend. .

[fiveelementtao]

Lucky 7... again, I understand your predicament. I have been there more than once. I am not minimizing your pain or the pain of your friends... I am speaking from experience, not just opinion... Try to listen to what I am saying without getting upset...

You are a taoist. You know as a taoist, that ALL options are available to everyone at all times. It is illusion to see otherwise...

I suggest taking stock of the level of intensity of feelings you have right now. You seem to be highly reactive to my post... True spiritual giving does not come from a place of need. If you are feeling an intense need to help these people, that is a warning sign that you are not operating from a detached loving place. You are operating from your selfishness and not a true desire to help. True love also can detach and allow others their choices in life...

I would also suggest looking at your need to support these peoples' situation as being victims.

I am speaking from experience. I was those people you are referring to. And I can absolutely tell you that however difficult my situation was, ( and it WAS difficult). I was there by choice. I chose to get out that situation. It was VERY difficult. So I am in NO way minimizing their plight. Many people don;t make it out. But it is their choice to stay where they are or move past it.

Your addiction lies in needing to see them as helpless victims. You are also addicted if you feel you NEED to save them or if the thought of not being able to save them is not allowing you the distance to allow them to be where they are...

Again, if my opinions are not stinging with some truth, then why are you having such a strong reaction the what I am saying...

[Encephalon]

There is, and I see: many lost souls (friends), who do not know what to do or what direction to turn to. They are immersed in perpetual fear, ever-present loneliness, both physical and emotional pain...drugs, alcohol...man, you all know what I'm talking about.

 

How do I give them the happiness I have found through "spirituality?" How do I ask them to make the sacrifice to let go of the habitual ways of living? I have asked them to question, inquire, I have pushed them forcefully at times, and gently coaxed them at others. Sometimes I see him/her genuinely interested, but at the end of the day they return to a familiar territory.

 

Is it arrogant of me to wish that they follow a similar path as I have? Should I push books into their hands? What do I do and what can I do? Is the only way to wait?

 

I feel that these descriptions are unnecessary. I know many of you here have felt similarly.

 

 

Help from the bums would be appreciated. _/\_. .

 

Yep - I'd say your comments rank fairly high on the Barf-Meter, but it's not 100%, and it's not because you aren't sincere in your desire to see less suffering in the world. We are all wounded healers, and it's cowardly to wait to be of service when someone desperately needs help we are capable of providing. Waiting for sainthood before you roll up your sleeves ain't the ticket.

 

The best you can do is lead by example and maintain as much empathy as you can. The ego has deep deep roots that can turn any act of kindness or generosity into an exercise in self-absorbtion, and this has an almost narcotic effect when first starting out. You'll only become aware of the depth of this dynamic as the depth of your ego becomes apparent (as you get older - yuck!). If you find yourself weeping privately over the misfortune of others then your nervous system is becoming sensitive to their plight. This is a far more dependable sign of loving-kindness and spiritual maturity than the success of the gestures you render to others.

 

 

Good luck.

[soaring crane]

Is it arrogant of me to wish that they follow a similar path as I have?

 

yes

 

Now I'll go read the rest of the thread

[Lucky7Strikes]

Again, if my opinions are not stinging with some truth, then why are you having such a strong reaction the what I am saying...

 

It's because I respect your opinions. I'll carefully consider what you wrote.

 

Yep - I'd say your comments rank fairly high on the Barf-Meter, but it's not 100%, and it's not because you aren't sincere in your desire to see less suffering in the world. We are all wounded healers, and it's cowardly to wait to be of service when someone desperately needs help we are capable of providing. Waiting for sainthood before you roll up your sleeves ain't the ticket.

 

The best you can do is lead by example and maintain as much empathy as you can. The ego has deep deep roots that can turn any act of kindness or generosity into an exercise in self-absorbtion, and this has an almost narcotic effect when first starting out. You'll only become aware of the depth of this dynamic as the depth of your ego becomes apparent (as you get older - yuck!). If you find yourself weeping privately over the misfortune of others then your nervous system is becoming sensitive to their plight. This is a far more dependable sign of loving-kindness and spiritual maturity than the success of the gestures you render to others.

 

 

Good luck.

 

BARFED.

 

Nah, I'm just a drama queen. .

 

But thanks. I'm not sure what exactly the 'ego' is. I don't weep privately, but as deeper my practice goes, emotions do tend to get much stronger yet they affect me less. It's kind of hard to explain. You cry but aren't really sad, you laugh but aren't really happy. There is just crying and sadness... .

 

I do not believe that helping others is impossible or guiding them for that matter. It's just an issue of finding right means for individual basis. Perhaps some need to been simply shown example, and others you need to take hold of, shake to pieces, and scream in their ears. And yes, maybe all this shit is pure arrogance, but so what?

Edited December 23, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[fiveelementtao]

I do not believe that helping others is impossible or guiding them for that matter. It's just an issue of finding right tools and fitting ways per individual basis. Perhaps some need to been simply shown example, and others you need to take hold of, shake to pieces, and scream in their ears.

 

It is indeed noble to want to help others. But they must first WANT your help. When you feel the need to force them to take your help against their will, that is abusive. Is that what you want to do? abuse them?... meditate on that...

 

 

 

If I were in your position (and I have been), I would seek out professional counseling. This could destroy your life. If we are talking any kind of addiction, you need to understand the true nature of addiction and what you really can and cannot do to help. I can tell you from my experience on both sides of this issue, that (based on what I've read from you) I do not believe you fully understand what their problem is or what the solution is. You need help, too or this can destroy your life or reappear later with other people if you are not able to face your issues that attract these kinds of people in your life.

Good luck to you...

[Guest paul walter]

But when the person is self-destructive under the idea that he/she has no choice, so many burdens...and there's no one around to lift him/her up...

 

I don't know. .

 

 

 

My now rather large experience with this sort of thing makes me advise you to keep your distance from people like that until you know yourself better. And when you do you will find yourself distancing yourself from such draining energy. Re-evaluation of the need for friends and especially re-evaluation of the very meaning of the concept 'friend' and what it 'means' in todays world is a good thing too. It will lead you to a certain path of non-need and probably free you of the guilt of not living up to the idea of friendship that causes such stress if you face these things squarely. Try to remember ignorance/unawareness is a potentially deadly thing-sometimes you just have to save yourself so your friends/you don't destroy yourself. It may seem rather dramatic what I'm positing, but if you look back on your relationships and face why you are posting in the first place you will probably be able to see certain unpleasant truths you would rather be living without. Best, Paul.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I think there is a misunderstanding here.

 

It seems this has been an issue with several people, and there's a tendency here where a conceived notion, from very very personal experience, has led to generalizations...and assumptions, hence clouded evaluations and/or well...for example, fiveelementtao seems to...and is blowing it completely out of proportion. Blasto was probably right. My own posts were barf quality... .

 

@Paul Walter,

 

I have absolutely no worries for my own resolve. I do not mind guilt or non-guilt, or need or non-need. Drain my energy...

 

It also had nothing to do with the need for friends...

 

Why the hell are all these irrelevant issues being brought up? Save myself? Huh?

 

I see no good outcome from the materialistic and even nihilistic view of life some around me are imprisoned in. And drugs and alcohol carry them on. I see that and see myself, and I know that I am happier, that my life's become easier.

 

Now, do I sit next to them and go: hey maybe you should get professional help? HAHAHA why? don't we live for the pleasures? Piles of rolling dirt! Or do I tell them about all the depenedent origination! GO READ THE BUDDHA? Go do some qigong! Or should I just sit there and listen to them go on and on about their misery half drunk out of their minds. Yes, maybe I should just stop seeing them.

 

I don't know. This threads is turning out very weird. I get a hunch that there's a history of bad memories with orthodox religious fanaticism in many people. Maybe this has an effect, why is this coming up in my mind? Just an hunch...but then again, I am probably over generalizing myself.

Edited December 24, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[fiveelementtao]

Now, do I sit next to them and go: hey maybe you should get professional help?

No. Absolutely not. My suggestion was for YOU to get professional help to help YOU see your addiction to their misery. You are in classic co-addiction/denial mode. You CAN'T do ANYTHING for them.

If you feel I am mistaken, I encourage you to do some online research about "co-addiction". See if what you find doesn't apply to your situation and your feelings. If not, then continue trying to save your friends from addiction. You're right I may be "blowing this out of proportion." If so, you have nothing to lose by investigating what Co-Addiction is and if it applies to you.

(sigh) Time for me to take my own advice and retire from this thread.

This is a horrible time of year to be suffering from this kind of situation. My heart is with you. I wish you peace and happiness.

http://www.al-anon.org/S17web.html

Edited December 24, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[C T]

Hey there L7 how are you buddy?

 

Apologies for poking me nose in here - just a question for your consideration: have you ever heard

of a practice called Tonglen? Very very appropriate in situations you have described, imo. Have a read:

 

http://peterfox.com.au/meditation_tonglen.htm

 

I personally find it immensely practical and helpful in many situations, especially on the cultivation of

compassion. I think you will relate well with this practice.

 

All the best, and warm wishes too, for a happy Christmas and a peaceful New Year!

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

You know there are a lot of ancient stories(myths?)of Daoist sages' walking through a villiage and without saying a word or really doing a thing transforming all the people.

 

How? Becasue they had cultivated their energy to such a high level that their personal energy would effect a change of some kind, whether the people liked it or wanted it is another matter.

 

They do exist, although they may not be Chinese these days, the results are not always pretty though...... still by that point they are usually long gone.....very wise of them

 

Working on yourself is the best favour you can do for anyone, your energy will effect them if it has been developed, and that way you didn't choose for it to, it just happened. Not your fault.