Is it OK to charge people money for instruction?

[goldisheavy]

Paying money is getting away easy for the student.

If you want to preach anything, start preaching that, cuz it's the goddamn truth...

 

You are confused. Money or barter have a deleterious effect on relationships. Money more so than barter. Just look around.

[goldisheavy]

I'm really surprised to hear you say that.

I'm not being trite or disingenuous in the least!

Don't you see any value in Zen/Chan? In Tantra? In Dao?

Spontaneous laughter is one of the few reflections of our true nature, as is sexual orgasm.

How much more real does it get?

 

Steve, you were making it sound like you could laugh your way to nirvana, and you know the reality is nowhere close. People laugh all the time and yet none of them have wisdom. Greedy and cruel people laugh too, you know? Everyone laughs.

 

These things are sacred, not at all trite. They are just taken for granted because there must be something more to all of this!

 

I explained this already. Are you ignoring what I am saying? I said, as long as you think there is a lot to mundane concerns, you must also think there is a lot to spiritual concerns. Mundane concerns have inertia and laughing can't touch that. How can laughter cure the belief in physicalism, for example?

 

Laughter is good and valuable, and I will even agree with you that it's sacred. But it's not enough on its own.

 

If I provide alternative perspectives that means I'm asleep?

 

Sleep is an alternative to waking.

 

You're probably right about that - perhaps I'll wake up one day, perhaps not.

But if I'm asleep, why do I always feel so tired?

 

That's a good one. Different kind of sleep.

 

All relationships are sacred - it doesn't need to have anything to do with the thoughts and concepts that you gratuitously call "spiritual" and "transcendant". Relationships can remain sacred with or without the presence of money. Money only controls you if you let it.

 

It's like saying that heroine only controls you if you let it. That's true in a sense. There are individuals who can take heroine any number of times and not get addicted to it. But is this good general purpose advice in our world? "Heroine makes everything feel better, so take it!" Is that good? Most people don't have the maturity for this.

 

You do -

 

First, I was talking about instruction and not about providing health care. Second, there are a number of areas we consider mundane where profit motive does harm. It would be good to clean those areas up too, but I figured you guys are wimps and can't take it. So the only thing I selected for protection is the sacred. I figured I should at least protect the sacred from profit motive.

 

Ideally education, health care, infrastructure, science, political campaigning, and probably a host of other things should be protected as well.

 

I think the sacred is the easiest to protect because we are almost there as it is. Very few people are breaking the guidelines I am speaking of. Most people are not breaking them.

 

And the reason I am saying all this, is to raise awareness and responsibility. So if I say heroin is addictive, and you still decide to take it, at least I hope you did so not without ample forewarning. The final decision is up to every individual, as I said in the very beginning. I just want to discuss the implications of business relationships on human relations.

 

Business is cold and impersonal, and it's often abusive (business partners often try to trick each other). Please don't say "but business doesn't have to be like that". I am only discussing what it is like, not what it could be like. Business is fucked up. Right now. And that fucked-up-ness has tremendous inertia. And its been fucked up since before money was invented.

 

There is a reason why most people think this is funny:

 

Edited December 24, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Vajrasattva]

You are confused. Money or barter have a deleterious effect on relationships. Money more so than barter. Just look around.

 

 

your opinion has deleterious effect upon your muladhara chakra.

 

 

There is nothing wrong with money nor Bartering. Stop projecting your own issues on to them.

[goldisheavy]

your opinion has deleterious effect upon your muladhara chakra.

There is nothing wrong with money nor Bartering. Stop projecting your own issues on to them.

 

These are not my own issues. Just look around. Wake up.

 

Furthermore, I don't have any chakras, so I can't affect them, even if I wanted to. And I don't suggest anyone to rely on the conception of a "chakra" for anything.

Edited December 25, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Vajrasattva]

These are not my own issues. Just look around. Wake up.

 

Furthermore, I don't have any chakras, so I can't affect them, even if I wanted to. And I don't suggest anyone to rely on the conception of a "chakra" for anything.

 

 

GIH its not money nor bartering that causes problems its "PEOPLE & EGOS".

 

Look around you.

[lino]

http://www.commondreams.org/video/2009/12/23

 

This is an interesting quote on the interplay of money and morals.

 

http://www.ted.com/talks/shaffi_mather_a_n...corruption.html

 

Here's another interesting video. I was thinking. Why wouldn't the grandma want to pay the bribe for those 3 stair$? Wouldn't she appreciate and treasure those stairs even more if she had to bribe her way to a license to build the stairs?

 

If I listen to some of the New Age fool$ in this thread, surely that's the ca$e.

 

Another link:

 

 

This one makes it obvious how money makes everything more sacred (not).

 

You aren't doing it right. You are supposed to call it "Economic Terrorism".

[goldisheavy]

GIH its not money nor bartering that causes problems its "PEOPLE & EGOS".

 

Look around you.

 

That's not exactly true, but there is some truth to that. Quantifying things hurts. So when you put a price on something, you quantify it. You express it as a number. That's a certain level of pretense. That pretense hurts.

 

Egos make the pain of quantification worse than it has to be, but even without egos, expressing things and events as number-equivalents in terms of worth, has a deleterious effect.

 

So you only speak a half-truth to begin with.

 

Second, what is more practical? To avoid transactions done with the claims of spirituality involved? Or to avoid egos? Avoiding a business transaction is easy. Avoiding ego is not.

 

Avoiding business transactions done to purchase and sell instructions for enlightenment is easy and practical. Avoiding ego is neither easy nor practical.

 

Vajrasattva, do you think you have dissolved your ego?

[lino]

Try thinking of it as something being exchanged for something else.

 

Things are being exchanged all the time. You exchange with the environment by breathing

everyday.

 

With all of the free teachings all over the internet, I don't know why you are complaining

though.

 

You are too similar to what I'm trying to change from, maybe cultivation is not for you.

You may end up like me, where invisible entities are constantly talking to me in order to

facilitate creating unwholesome states in my own "mind".

 

Maybe it would be more beneficial to go to t-mag.com and follow some sort of workout.

Just avoid the forums there.

[goldisheavy]

Try thinking of it as something being exchanged for something else.

 

Things are being exchanged all the time. You exchange with the environment by breathing

everyday.

 

I don't quantify my breaths though. I don't quantify the oxygen coming in or the CO2 coming out. I don't express the worth of the breath as a number.

 

With all of the free teachings all over the internet, I don't know why you are complaining

though.

 

I am not complaining. I say that heroine is not safe, I am not complaining about heroine.

 

You are too similar to what I'm trying to change from, maybe cultivation is not for you.

You may end up like me, where invisible entities are constantly talking to me in order to

facilitate creating unwholesome states in my own "mind".

 

You're extremely deluded. And I don't think Vajrasattva is helping you any. He seems to be fanning the flames of your delusion.

[lino]

You're extremely deluded. And I don't think Vajrasattva is helping you any. He seems to be fanning the flames of your delusion.

 

Okay

 

You don't think it'll happen to you. I didn't think that it would happen to me either.

 

Just check out all of the people in the forums at astraldynamics.com

 

and check out the numbers on schizophrenics and their quality of life.

 

BTW...some yogis DO QUANTIFY the amount of air exchanged.

[goldisheavy]

Okay

 

You don't think it'll happen to you. I didn't think that it would happen to me either.

 

Just check out all of the people in the forums at astraldynamics.com

 

and check out the numbers on schizophrenics and their quality of life.

 

Do you sell tinfoil hats to go with that?

 

BTW...some yogis DO QUANTIFY the amount of air exchanged.

 

Not everyone who is called "a yogi" knows what's up.

[lino]

Do you sell tinfoil hats to go with that?

Not everyone who is called "a yogi" knows what's up.

 

 

And you PRESUME that you know what is up?

 

Your word against the proven word of sages, saints, and cultivators?

 

Don't kid yourself. You are not smarter than those from the past.

 

There is hundreds of years worth of documentation that

will tell you that you are smoking crack.

 

 

You are running through the course of events that I ran through.

I hope that fate is kinder to you. Maybe just have a little taste so

that the veil is lifted then cease, which is still merciful.

[goldisheavy]

Your word against the proven word of sages, saints, and cultivators?

 

I don't take an antagonistic position to all sages and saints and cultivators. So saying "against" is truly retarded on your part.

 

I am explaining the danger of mixing money and barter with spirituality. That's a pretty orthodox position to take. It's not something new that I invented just now.

[lino]

I don't take an antagonistic position to all sages and saints and cultivators. So saying "against" is truly retarded on your part.

 

I am explaining the danger of mixing money and barter with spirituality. That's a pretty orthodox position to take. It's not something new that I invented just now.

 

 

You do "against" with every single "view".

 

Money and barter are necessary in order to just plain LIVE in society.

 

Would you have to have taken a sort of "slaveship" hundreds of years ago and take years just to get one effective practice?

 

Also, would you like to pay for something by discharging merit or by manifesting your own bad karma?

[lino]

I don't take an antagonistic position to all sages and saints and cultivators. So saying "against" is truly retarded on your part.

 

I am explaining the danger of mixing money and barter with spirituality. That's a pretty orthodox position to take. It's not something new that I invented just now.

 

 

BTW...the practices aren't "spiritual". All of the trial and error was already put out of the equation

 

hundreds, if not, thousands of years ago. The practices are a valid and proven science due to

 

results. Some people may not get results right away because they have to cleanse more.

 

 

Do YOU pay for food to fill your stomach?

 

Do YOU pay for an internet connection?

 

Do YOU pay to watch TV?

[goldisheavy]

[lino]

[goldisheavy]

 

Oh Lord

 

If you aren't smart enough to figure out there is an exchange in "friendship" then you have

some really big issues.

 

Best Wishes and GOOD RIDDANCE

 

There is no business exchange in a friendship. The minute you quantify the exchange and turn the exchange into a business transaction, the friendship is gone.

Edited December 25, 2009 by goldisheavy

[lino]

There is no business exchange in a friendship. The minute you quantify the exchange and turn the exchange into a business transaction, the friendship is gone.

 

You are a trip

 

Ahem...

 

quantifying starts A LOT SOONER than that. The first time that there is any level of frustration, there is quantifying involved.

 

What a FUCKING trip

 

You think God won't forgive a teacher for trying to put food on the table.

 

I have blindspots and points that I neglect...AND I'LL ADMIT THAT READILY. From my observations, maybe

you should apply insight training while you are not in meditation.

 

You can find Insight Practices on Daniel Ingram's site, FOR FREE, so you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

LATER

Edited December 25, 2009 by lino

[goldisheavy]

 

You are a trip

 

Ahem...

 

quantifying starts A LOT SOONER than that. The first time that there is any level of frustration, there is quantifying involved.

 

This is wrong. At first I explained why it is wrong (quality vs. quantity and other issues), but then I realized you're not in it for a discussion.

 

You think God won't forgive a teacher for trying to put food on the table.

 

In this case, no, God won't, because there are some aggravating circumstances involved. You should sooner steal from your neighbor, if you can't put food on your table, than to steal from God. Selling God's knowledge should be unthinkable to any Muslim. I shouldn't have to tell you this. Did Shaykh Nazim tell you it's OK to sell God's secrets? I want to know where you get your ideas from.

 

I have blindspots and points that I neglect...AND I'LL ADMIT THAT READILY. From my observations, maybe

you should apply insight training while you are not in meditation.

 

Try to put some thought into what you type before your fingers hit the keyboard.

[宁]

GIH,

 

 

what about your life?

 

- do you have a job?

- or do you still live with your parents?

- do you have a wife?

- do you have a kid?

 

If you are relating to these concepts only teoretically, then you're just a big mouth.

[lino]

This is wrong. At first I explained why it is wrong (quality vs. quantity and other issues), but then I realized you're not in it for a discussion.

 

Maybe to you. I'm trying to establish myself in the truth of what is, not the fantasy of "what should be according to myself or somebody else". Creating the fantasy view of "what should be according to myself or somebody else" takes me away from finding the truth of what is.

 

In this case, no, God won't, because there are some aggravating circumstances involved. You should sooner steal from your neighbor, if you can't put food on your table, than to steal from God. Selling God's knowledge should be unthinkable to any Muslim. I shouldn't have to tell you this. Did Shaykh Nazim tell you it's OK to sell God's secrets? I want to know where you get your ideas from.

 

Read the Bible on forgiveness. When a teacher is trying to sell a practice, the practitioner has the choice of walking away with the loss of maybe a few seconds to here the selling spiel. When somebody is being stolen from, they have to make choices and choices that leads to losing a lot more than just a few seconds. If the practitioner loses time harping on complaining about it and complaining about it, then it is the practitioner's loss anyway. Now I'm starting to see the wisdom of somebody just saying "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Go sit on your zafu or do something productive!" I'll trust a teacher's wisdom over yours, even if I don't buy their practice.

God will forgive if you steal anyway.

 

I get the ideas from trying to look further into "what is"

 

Try to put some thought into what you type before your fingers hit the keyboard.

 

I am, that is why I am pointing things out to you. I AM ADMITTING THAT I SHOULD PRACTICE MORE. I am trying to establish in the truth of what is.

 

Do you think that my uncultivated "view" matters much or your uncultivated "view"? No it doesn't

Edited December 25, 2009 by lino

[ShaktiMama]

Maybe to you. I'm trying to establish myself in the truth of what is, not the fantasy of "what should be according to myself or somebody else". Creating the fantasy view of "what should be according to myself or somebody else" takes me away from finding the truth of what is.

Read the Bible on forgiveness. When a teacher is trying to sell a practice, the practitioner has the choice of walking away with the loss of maybe a few seconds to here the selling spiel. When somebody is being stolen from, they have to make choices and choices that leads to losing a lot more than just a few seconds. I'll trust a teacher's wisdom over yours, even if I don't buy their practice.

God will forgive if you steal anyway.

 

I get the ideas from trying to look further into "what is"

I am, that is why I am pointing things out to you. I AM ADMITTING THAT I SHOULD PRACTICE MORE. I am trying to establish in the truth of what is.

 

Do you think that my uncultivated "view" matters much or your uncultivated "view"? No it doesn't

 

I think, lino, money/barter is just a representation of energy and flow. It is also just a tool so it is neutral. How we view a neutral tool gives fascinating insights into one's personality and character. It is a reality check for me.

[C T]

 

 

I get the ideas from trying to look further into "what is"

I am, that is why I am pointing things out to you. I AM ADMITTING THAT I SHOULD PRACTICE MORE. I am trying to establish in the truth of what is.

 

Do you think that my uncultivated "view" matters much or your uncultivated "view"? No it doesn't

Lino,

 

Dont mean to pierce the bubble here, but the truth of what IS is simply that which IS. No amount of practice will establish you closer to that which IS - if anything, it actually removes one further away from what IS. All one needs to know what IS is to simply see directly into each moment, without the thought that 'I am seeing..' Short definition, tall order! And by the way, what IS is not a truth... it simply IS what is.. truth is a figment of your imagination, reflected against that which you have perceived to be false.. however, there may be others who share the very same perceptions as you, if that is any consolation. Delusion can be individualized, or en massed. Its still delusion.

[lino]

Lino,

 

Dont mean to pierce the bubble here, but the truth of what IS is simply that which IS. No amount of practice will establish you closer to that which IS - if anything, it actually removes one further away from what IS. All one needs to know what IS is to simply see directly into each moment, without the thought that 'I am seeing..' Short definition, tall order! And by the way, what IS is not a truth... it simply IS what is.. truth is a figment of your imagination, reflected against that which you have perceived to be false.. however, there may be others who share the very same perceptions as you, if that is any consolation. Delusion can be individualized, or en massed. Its still delusion.

 

This is how I arrive to my truth. I'll give you an example.

 

I got off the subway to get on a bus a week ago. A lady was asking people for money. Then I arrived to an unwholesome state. I gave her money anyway. My truth was that I thought that the lady may be giving me a

fake story in order to get money. What I arrived at was cause and effect. She got to her position because of blind spots, neglect, installation of perceived limitations, and circumstances. I got to my unwholesome state because of blind spots, neglect, installation of perceived limitations, and circumstances. Understanding arose and compassion arose for myself and the lady. This will permit me to discard my prior unfruitful programming.

 

I'm still trying to get all of the characteristics nailed down so I'm not going to get into what you are saying because I am still trying to investigate what you are trying to say.

 

Thank you though.