Is it OK to charge people money for instruction?

[C T]

This is how I arrive to my truth. I'll give you an example.

 

I got off the subway to get on a bus a week ago. A lady was asking people for money. Then I arrived to an unwholesome state. I gave her money anyway. My truth was that I thought that the lady may be giving me a

fake story in order to get money. What I arrived at was cause and effect. She got to her position because of blind spots, neglect, installation of perceived limitations, and circumstances. I got to my unwholesome state because of blind spots, neglect, installation of perceived limitations, and circumstances. Understanding arose and compassion arose for myself and the lady. This will permit me to discard my prior unfruitful programming.

 

I'm still trying to get all of the characteristics nailed down so I'm not going to get into what you are saying because I am still trying to investigate what you are trying to say.

 

Thank you though.

_/\_

[lino]

I think, lino, money/barter is just a representation of energy and flow. It is also just a tool so it is neutral. How we view a neutral tool gives fascinating insights into one's personality and character. It is a reality check for me.

 

I agree with that. I can't really add anything to that.

 

I'm still trying to decipher the fundamentals so that I can understand them thoroughly. Then I want to apply the fundamentals until I'm able to apply the whole process of the fundamentals in the flash of an instant without losing track of the whole ongoing process.

 

On edit: Merry Christmas

Edited December 25, 2009 by lino

[3bob]

Sorry people, I haven't yet read the whole string of posts but it looks like a great deal of great responses so far!

 

If the subject has no yet been raised... how about one helping to pay (or to somewhat lighten or temporarily suspend) anothers karmic debts?

[lino]

Sorry people, I haven't yet read the whole string of posts but it looks like a great deal of great responses so far!

 

If the subject has no yet been raised... how about one helping to pay (or to somewhat lighten or temporarily suspend) anothers karmic debts?

 

That is okay too. But try to help the person to get at the root of their karmic debts so that they can eventually get to having compassion for themselves. The desirable result is for them to go on to do something more productive...but please be patient with them. It took me 2 years of consciously looking for what I'm trying to decipher right now. It may have taken me 35 years (almost 36 years) of unconscious looking.

 

On edit: Help people so that they can get to their "Aha!" moment and build up from that point.

Edited December 25, 2009 by lino

[goldisheavy]

I'm trying to establish myself in the truth of what is, not the fantasy of "what should be according to myself or somebody else".

 

So, in other words, you're trying to be objective? You are biased away from subjectivity and toward objectivity?

 

Creating the fantasy view of "what should be according to myself or somebody else" takes me away from finding the truth of what is.

 

Maybe fantasy is what is? Have you considered that? If that's the case, your goal is not to find the truth, but to find a good fantasy, and that would then be the truth without being called "truth".

 

Read the Bible on forgiveness.

 

Read Old Testament. God is an asshole. The biggest asshole you can think of. God will rape you in every orifice you have, even if you're innocent. No joke. Look at how God toyed with Abraham and his son, for his own amusement. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Make no mistake. I don't believe in any concepts taken from the Bible or Koran. I only use them because I know you believe in them and I know they have impact on your mind, due to your mind's conditioning.

 

When a teacher is trying to sell a practice, the practitioner has the choice of walking away with the loss of maybe a few seconds to here the selling spiel.

 

The damage is worse than that. You are not mature enough to recognize what's going on. First of all, the most grievous damage accrues to the teacher who sells the unsellable. Secondly, the nature of the damage has to do with how the teacher influences his perception of the spiritual truths by selling them for a price. Since you're not selling any sacred teachings, you don't need to worry about this. Cross the bridge when you get to it.

 

When somebody is being stolen from, they have to make choices and choices that leads to losing a lot more than just a few seconds.

 

How about losing many lifetimes? Surely no amount of mundane theft can create the consequence that lasts more than one lifetime.

 

God will forgive if you steal anyway.

 

First, thank you for admitting that selling the sacred is a wrong thing to do. Second, you have a flippant attitude toward God's forgiveness. If you take God's forgiveness as a given, then God's forgiveness has no meaning.

 

I get the ideas from trying to look further into "what is"

 

I was getting a feeling that Shaykh Nazim is the one that advocated selling of the spiritual truths. Now I think maybe it's your own delusion.

[lino]

So, in other words, you're trying to be objective? You are biased away from subjectivity and toward objectivity?

Maybe fantasy is what is? Have you considered that? If that's the case, your goal is not to find the truth, but to find a good fantasy, and that would then be the truth without being called "truth".

Read Old Testament. God is an asshole. The biggest asshole you can think of. God will rape you in every orifice you have, even if you're innocent. No joke. Look at how God toyed with Abraham and his son, for his own amusement. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Make no mistake. I don't believe in any concepts taken from the Bible or Koran. I only use them because I know you believe in them and I know they have impact on your mind, due to your mind's conditioning.

The damage is worse than that. You are not mature enough to recognize what's going on. First of all, the most grievous damage accrues to the teacher who sells the unsellable. Secondly, the nature of the damage has to do with how the teacher influences his perception of the spiritual truths by selling them for a price. Since you're not selling any sacred teachings, you don't need to worry about this. Cross the bridge when you get to it.

How about losing many lifetimes? Surely no amount of mundane theft can create the consequence that lasts more than one lifetime.

First, thank you for admitting that selling the sacred is a wrong thing to do. Second, you have a flippant attitude toward God's forgiveness. If you take God's forgiveness as a given, then God's forgiveness has no meaning.

I was getting a feeling that Shaykh Nazim is the one that advocated selling of the spiritual truths. Now I think maybe it's your own delusion.

 

At this point, only you can help yourself.

 

I wish you the best of luck.

[ShaktiMama]

[goldisheavy]

[ShaktiMama]

Here's a quote from his site:

 

"Stuart Wilde's fifth book deals with the E.S.P. of easy money and the metaphysics of being in the right place at the right time, with the right idea and the right attitude. Like his other highly successful books, this work is chock full of useful information. His breezy and comical style make for an effortless reading, as yo plot your path to complete financial freedom."

 

ESP of easy money. Good one. That will surely impress people. Leave it to Stuart Wilde to do what Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, Bodhidharma, Patanjali, and hell, even the lowly and dirty Mohammed, did not do and couldn't even do. Never mind those light weights. Here comes Stuart. Watch out!

 

*shrug* whatevah who needs to be impressed? ...i only use what works... and discounting something because of bad PR hyperbole?...eh...look deeper... I read it almost 20 years ago before there was a PR machine on a recommendation of a friend....

 

you are pretty good with the hyperbole yourself....and using intentional contention...don't know if you think it's a good teaching tool or if that is just your natural personality...

 

its an old debate tool...get people into their emotions and it is easy to knock them off center...it is also a good martial arts tool... slap people across the face quickly and they lose their groundness and center quickly ...fall into their emotions and it is easy to punch them down...

 

people are easy to manipulate when they fall into their emotions

[Inedible]

My biggest problem with paying for spiritual things is that, unlike money, they can't be quantified or guaranteed. You can standardize herbs, but you can't bottle chi.

[goldisheavy]

*shrug* whatevah who needs to be impressed? ...i only use what works... and discounting something because of bad PR hyperbole?...eh...look deeper... I read it almost 20 years ago before there was a PR machine on a recommendation of a friend....

 

you are pretty good with the hyperbole yourself....and using intentional contention...don't know if you think it's a good teaching tool or if that is just your natural personality...

 

its an old debate tool...get people into their emotions and it is easy to knock them off center...it is also a good martial arts tool... slap people across the face quickly and they lose their groundness and center quickly ...fall into their emotions and it is easy to punch them down...

 

people are easy to manipulate when they fall into their emotions

 

I agree. This is why the best business is the one that operates on hope and fear. You sell hope, and spread fear about what will happen if you don't buy. It never fails. People want to hope for something, and anyone who has hope also has fear. So if you're a smart business person, you know how to feed into hope and fear to move people to buy.

 

I am thinking of writing my own manual on how to make easy money. Kind of like "locksmith's guide to lockpicking." All the good locksmiths need to also know how to pick locks. This one would be something like "consumer's guide to running a scam." Here are some ideas:

 

1. Don't sell anything people can verify. For example, if I sell cake, people can test to see if it's a cake easily. So if I advertise cake but sell shoes, I am screwed, because a shoe is easy to distinguish from the cake. A good thing to sell is a hopeful and nebulous idea that cannot be checked. Also, if the person does check it and finds it's not there, you must have a way to blame the person.

 

2. Spread fear about what will happen if you don't buy this nebulous concept.

 

3. Spread lots of positive exaggerated stories about the good results of the nebulous concept. Make sure the stories are either impossible or difficult to verify.

 

And so on. That's pretty good for starters. Hope + fear + intangibility of the product = I HAVE EASY MONEY ESP.

 

And one of the best and easiest hopes to sell to people is the hope of making more money. Second easiest is love, warmth and acceptance. People lack that. So sell it! Make it into a product.

 

My biggest problem with paying for spiritual things is that, unlike money, they can't be quantified or guaranteed. You can standardize herbs, but you can't bottle chi.

 

Exactly. That's at the core of the issue.

Edited December 26, 2009 by goldisheavy

[ShaktiMama]

Regarding you can't bottle chi. But you can measure the effects of chi and make inferences.

 

One example is therapeutic touch. As always there are some detractors but it is easy enough to teach in a 30 minute class and people can figure it out for themselves.

 

I have taught many people how to do this simple technique. I taught myself how to do it and you can teach yourself.

 

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/therape...ouch-000362.htm

 

I was going to go back to school and get my PhD in Nursing by focusing on the role of nitric oxide in healing as activated by energetic healing techniques. But the problems of getting consent working with live subjects that I had to draw blood levels on NO before and after an energetic treatment was just too daunting and time consuming for me.

 

I got the idea after attending a conference on Anodyne therapy using infrared light for healing. It was shown to increase NO amounts which caused nerve regeneration in diabetics. This marked the return of feeling into extremities which were once numb to touch.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_oxide

 

http://www.anodynetherapy.com/ (turn down your volume)

 

ooops...

i just wanted to add that nitic oxide is a potent vasodilator so it increase blood flow by widening the delivery system to damaged areas. Increased blood flow means better Oxygen delivery and also delivery of cellular nutrients. This is what causes the healing.

 

I suppose i could go back and do the research again but this time taking thermal pics of before and after test subjects. There should be increase heat at the site treated.

 

Come to think of it...when I have treated people with qi sometimes they get a mild red flush all over their body as there capillaries vasodilate. Like a calmer version of what happens in a niacin flush. They also say they feel warm.

Edited December 26, 2009 by ShaktiMama

[goldisheavy]

Edited December 26, 2009 by goldisheavy

[宁]

My biggest problem with paying for spiritual things is that, unlike money, they can't be quantified or guaranteed. You can standardize herbs, but you can't bottle chi.

 

That's silly, of course you can...

This is what awaits at a higher level. But the higher the level, the higher the price...

[Apech]

For what its worth - and I hesitate to put a value on it, this is my experience regarding paying for teachings. When I learned the Qi Gong that I practice now I paid the teacher. It was not an exorbitant fee and I paid it willingly. My teacher earned a living teaching calligraphy and art as well as Qi Gong and lived modestly in a studio above a restaurant in China Town. He slept on the floor of his studio and did not display any ostentatious wealth that I was aware of. I paid gladly because I realised he had to rent the studio and that he had to eat and so on. I would probably have paid more if asked. Payment was never an issue and it was dealt with in a perfunctory way every now and then.

 

It was similar when I learned Tai Chi from another teacher, I had to pay but it was no big deal.

 

What I focused on was how happy I was with the teacher - were they genuine, did they know anything, could I learn from them? These were the questions I asked my self. As well as - was what they were teaching useful and 'pure' - I won't try to define what I mean by 'pure' here. That was all that mattered to me.

 

So in principle I see nothing wrong with charging reasonable fees for teachings of a technical nature.

 

Where I think it gets tricky is when the teacher starts to expect devotion. In my view regard for a teacher cannot be fabricated or contrived. Some systems seem to expect the learner to become a devotee or disciple - this is where I say 'thanks but no thanks'. My reason is that while I accept the historical instances of Guru/Disciple relationships such as Milarepa and Marpa for instance - this was something spontaneous and real - like falling in love it was uncontrived these people felt genuine love, respect, regard for their teacher. They didn't have to think about it and certainly they didn't need to be told what to think or feel. So much today is a kind of emotional blackmail forcing people to become devotees.

 

Also there is marketing. If you market a teaching then the message is deliberately contrived to get a certain percentage of people to sign up and pay. Once you do this - then the teaching is impure. You start to say what people want to hear, to answer their fantasies about 'life changing' whatever - this is universally garbage. Its easy to spot for instance in the sexing up of teachings using badly understood quantum mechanics or the easy/quick way to enlightenment. This is what is bad and not the money itself. Money is just a convenient way to exchange - pieces of paper and metal which make life simpler and less arduous.

[lino]

That's silly, of course you can...

This is what awaits at a higher level. But the higher the level, the higher the price...

 

Rebuke:

 

Pali Canons and Mahayana literature

 

Dr.Morris and Itzhak Bentov already confirmed that some of the phenomena is

the same across all traditions.

[lino]

[King Kabalabhati]

I think it's OK to charge for teachings. Money actually turns sacred when you use that "potential energy" in it to do a good thing. Especially charging money for teaching people to take charge of their own healing, spirituality etc.. via a system that you honestly believe in, that kind of work is IMO making money more of a divine power rather than (negatively) mundane. Just because money thus becomes part of the motivation in spreading the healing information and vibes, AND it makes a living for the teacher, who also must survive, usually in the same society as those learning from him.

[宁]

I think it's OK to charge for teachings. Money actually turns sacred when you use that "potential energy" in it to do a good thing. Especially charging money for teaching people to take charge of their own healing, spirituality etc.. via a system that you honestly believe in, that kind of work is IMO making money more of a divine power rather than (negatively) mundane. Just because money thus becomes part of the motivation in spreading the healing information and vibes, AND it makes a living for the teacher, who also must survive, usually in the same society as those learning from him.

 

Yes, I think starting a war on money is like starting a war with your own dick... and essentialy this is what is happening... your connection with the root is weakened...

Gold is heavy, because gold is the jing of the Earth... Seen from that perspective, this 'big mouth's' name may sound a bit different.

 

The next phase, when the root is weakened, is that the top (head) gets overheated... It consumes the resources of the body. The Liver pushes the remaining Qi from the body, up to the head...

The person enters a state of a Qi vacuum... he has no functional link with the Earth, so he needs the energy from another source...

 

So he starts doing what it's been doing until now... draining others by getting their attention...

When you see the mechanism that is behind it, you stop to judge it morally, and feel sadness, and even compassion...

Edited December 26, 2009 by Little1

[Inedible]

That's silly, of course you can...

This is what awaits at a higher level. But the higher the level, the higher the price...

 

It is the ability of the student to see what it is they are going to buy which is my concern. Especially in the beginning it can take a lot of time and effort to learn to be able to respond to what is given. It requires a great deal of faith when their money is a sure thing to them, and energy might just be in their imagination at best.

 

We are talking about in the beginning, aren't we, when the student has no way to distinguish between a real teacher and a crook?

[ShaktiMama]

Yes, I think starting a war on money is like starting a war with your own dick... and essentialy this is what is happening... your connection with the root is weakened...

Gold is heavy, because gold is the jing of the Earth... Seen from that perspective, this 'big mouth's' name may sound a bit different.

 

The next phase, when the root is weakened, is that the top (head) gets overheated... It consumes the resources of the body. The Liver pushes the remaining Qi from the body, up to the head...

The person enters a state of a Qi vacuum... he has no functional link with the Earth, so he needs the energy from another source...

 

So he starts doing what it's been doing until now... draining others by getting their attention...

When you see the mechanism that is behind it, you stop to judge it morally, and feel sadness, and even compassion...

 

 

This is an old game, yes? To create drama to suck energy out of it in order to feel alive? This is very common human condition. Most run their lives on it rather than looking within to find their connection to Energy. And yes...it is difficult to feel frustration and anger when the source of such discontent is known. I still need practice not be drawn into these drama games. I have a lot to learn.

[宁]

We are talking about in the beginning, aren't we, when the student has no way to distinguish between a real teacher and a crook?

 

It is part of the learning experience, isn't it? Did you marry your first girlfriend?

[ShaktiMama]

It is the ability of the student to see what it is they are going to buy which is my concern. Especially in the beginning it can take a lot of time and effort to learn to be able to respond to what is given. It requires a great deal of faith when their money is a sure thing to them, and energy might just be in their imagination at best.

 

We are talking about in the beginning, aren't we, when the student has no way to distinguish between a real teacher and a crook?

 

Ability and skill is just a measure of ability and skill. One must look at other things. Look at how children and animals are around this person. Are they frightened? Do they avoid? How do they treat their family? Their students? Do you feel better after leaving their presence or do you feel a sense of disquiet? Their wei chi field should have a favorable effect on you...make you feel brighter, clearer, more energetic,remove blocks...you may even feel accepted and loved. My students comment on this aspect of my energy field also. It is not an admission of ego to tell you this. This is a natural part of my development.

 

Look at the students. Are they generally happy overall? Do they tend to get along or want to help each other or is their fighting and competition in an unhealthy manner? Do you feel like they are part of a family?

 

Does the teacher smile and laugh a lot? Are they not easily offended? Do they easily share "secrets" or are they close fisted?

 

They may have less ability and skill than some others but you will learn more from some one who has a heart centered approach to practice. You can learn the basics of becoming sensitive to energy and internal cultivation which will serve you when you have learned what you can and it is time to move on.

 

You will be a reflection of your teachers so choose wisely.

[lino]

Yes, I think starting a war on money is like starting a war with your own dick... and essentialy this is what is happening... your connection with the root is weakened...

Gold is heavy, because gold is the jing of the Earth... Seen from that perspective, this 'big mouth's' name may sound a bit different.

 

The next phase, when the root is weakened, is that the top (head) gets overheated... It consumes the resources of the body. The Liver pushes the remaining Qi from the body, up to the head...

The person enters a state of a Qi vacuum... he has no functional link with the Earth, so he needs the energy from another source...

 

So he starts doing what it's been doing until now... draining others by getting their attention...

When you see the mechanism that is behind it, you stop to judge it morally, and feel sadness, and even compassion...

 

It goes even further because I've traveled that road. It closes the heart center. The heart center is connected to the palm hearts and the bubbling springs points on the feet. I'm wondering if the heart center, with all of it's contractions, directs the constant exchange of energy with the environment. If it is, no amount of "rooting" or "grounding" is going to happen if the heart isn't open. If you hate your environment then you are going to hate exchanging energy with it and everything closes down. Everything is an exchange, even if it is just an exchange for a smile.

 

Have compassion for your environment, even if it is hostile. If you don't then emotion is a double edged sword.

Edited December 26, 2009 by lino

[Inedible]

It is part of the learning experience, isn't it? Did you marry your first girlfriend?

 

Did your first girlfriend make you pay in cash? If so, did she charge by the hour?