Is it OK to charge people money for instruction?

[lino]

Yes, I think starting a war on money is like starting a war with your own dick... and essentialy this is what is happening... your connection with the root is weakened...

Gold is heavy, because gold is the jing of the Earth... Seen from that perspective, this 'big mouth's' name may sound a bit different.

 

The next phase, when the root is weakened, is that the top (head) gets overheated... It consumes the resources of the body. The Liver pushes the remaining Qi from the body, up to the head...

The person enters a state of a Qi vacuum... he has no functional link with the Earth, so he needs the energy from another source...

 

So he starts doing what it's been doing until now... draining others by getting their attention...

When you see the mechanism that is behind it, you stop to judge it morally, and feel sadness, and even compassion...

 

Also, he is attacking his own "Heaven" by hating "Heaven". He is closing it off.

 

If he is attacking Earth, Human, and Heaven...

 

what energy source does he have?

 

If all of them are closed, then what does he have to exchange energy with?

 

What does he have to cleanse him?

 

Through all of his hate, even his body has to defend itself against him. This is how there

is further division in his being.

 

The "Establishment" (have compassion for them too) survives and thrives off of fear, hate,

and distraction from the truth. Worst yet, he wants to mimic the worst parts of the

"Establishment".

 

The fact of the matter is that a Truthseeker will pay any price to get at the heart of the

Truth to include life and lifetime after lifetime...but doesn't have to because through

reasoning, feel, and heart he or she will find the truth with what is freely available.

 

I found that "ugliness" isn't supposed to be cut out, removed, or moved away from. It is

transmuted or the seeds are planted in order for the transmutation to occur.

 

On edit: The better part of his spirit is going to win, even if it takes lifetimes, it is inevitable.

Edited December 27, 2009 by lino

[Mokona]

There are ways of looking at people, and finding them with intent that doesn't violate the surface of their energy that allows anyone to decide for themself if it is worth paying for a certain exchange or energy. Normally, in my own case, daily meditation allows me to stay at a level of sensitivity that lets me feel the energy behind posts. The more emotional the easier to feel. Sort of like being harmed through the angry intent in the persons words.

In this case it can be used to decide if someone at least has the ability to even send chi or transmit over distance. Even those who hide it.

I suppose many Tbum conversations are like arguing over dreams, it is just up to the individual to decide. Not for anyone to force a belief onto them.

 

Regarding you can't bottle chi. But you can measure the effects of chi and make inferences.

 

One example is therapeutic touch. As always there are some detractors but it is easy enough to teach in a 30 minute class and people can figure it out for themselves.

 

I have taught many people how to do this simple technique. I taught myself how to do it and you can teach yourself.

 

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/therape...ouch-000362.htm

 

I was going to go back to school and get my PhD in Nursing by focusing on the role of nitric oxide in healing as activated by energetic healing techniques. But the problems of getting consent working with live subjects that I had to draw blood levels on NO before and after an energetic treatment was just too daunting and time consuming for me.

 

I got the idea after attending a conference on Anodyne therapy using infrared light for healing. It was shown to increase NO amounts which caused nerve regeneration in diabetics. This marked the return of feeling into extremities which were once numb to touch.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_oxide

 

http://www.anodynetherapy.com/ (turn down your volume)

 

ooops...

i just wanted to add that nitic oxide is a potent vasodilator so it increase blood flow by widening the delivery system to damaged areas. Increased blood flow means better Oxygen delivery and also delivery of cellular nutrients. This is what causes the healing.

 

I suppose i could go back and do the research again but this time taking thermal pics of before and after test subjects. There should be increase heat at the site treated.

 

Come to think of it...when I have treated people with qi sometimes they get a mild red flush all over their body as there capillaries vasodilate. Like a calmer version of what happens in a niacin flush. They also say they feel warm.

 

At distance I have sent up through a persons feet and they became extremely energetic and happy. Do 'energy blockages' come into play at a physical level? Or chi flow into the energy created by food and sunlight and oxygen? I just wonder what is going on when a dramatic change like that occurs.

[ShaktiMama]

There are ways of looking at people, and finding them with intent that doesn't violate the surface of their energy that allows anyone to decide for themself if it is worth paying for a certain exchange or energy. Normally, in my own case, daily meditation allows me to stay at a level of sensitivity that lets me feel the energy behind posts. The more emotional the easier to feel. Sort of like being harmed through the angry intent in the persons words.

In this case it can be used to decide if someone at least has the ability to even send chi or transmit over distance. Even those who hide it.

I suppose many Tbum conversations are like arguing over dreams, it is just up to the individual to decide. Not for anyone to force a belief onto them.

At distance I have sent up through a persons feet and they became extremely energetic and happy. Do 'energy blockages' come into play at a physical level? Or chi flow into the energy created by food and sunlight and oxygen? I just wonder what is going on when a dramatic change like that occurs.

 

Energy blockages manifest in the physical as symptoms like pain, stiffness, swelling, heat and cold.

 

Chi is the body is created by food, sunlight and oxygen.

 

Speaking from a medical viewpoint I would say most physical healing using energy happens because the capillaries open up bringing more oxygen and micronutrients to the damaged area.

[Guest paul walter]

Just some thoughts:

It's important to remember that the vicious ideology that world capitalism has become is based on certain life hating humanist principles that work well for a certain social mind-set. If you agree with the ideology you have to be prepared to take responsibility for the cause/effect relation that comes out of it- (war, poverty,class, hate,pollution, dislocation of integrity etc etc etc)- otherwise I imagine it will just produce what we 'westerners' insistantly call Bad Karma.This is how capitalism stands in the globlisation/new empire era. Perhaps we are suppossed to learn the causal relations between things by observing the money exchange system on a global scale rather than learn it from seeing a 400 million dollar feel-good fantasy like 'Avatar' which is the spectacles' way of making us live a pacified life as we learn of the total outrages committed by 'our' civilisations. Anyway, we do live in Kali Yuga.

The world monetary system (scam?) can be seen as very yin/yang like, very flow oriented but like the internet is the product of a certain thinking (in these cases the military and the elites, though I am always willing to concede that those with the control also have their hands on the 'best' systems through their understanding of esoteric natural principles),and has the same effects on human psychology as any simulacra designed to take us further from our 'true' selves. The interlocking effects of any system creates holographic effects in the populations' thinking,therefore behaviour- and round it goes. Of course those without the reference point of proper organic life connections and 'scientific' life principles see these examples (internet and money) as liberating for mankind, while the systems at the same time exclude competition through their viral like self-propogation/infection).

 

While people are almost absolute slaves to this type of exchange system throughout most of the world, the internalised threat of exclusion from this system and the consequences that would immediately come from it warp peoples psychology terribly. It's very widely known that those inside systems adopt the

thinking/behaviour/life of that system even if it kills them. I find most peoples' lives to be built like a house of cards- a life without true self-regulation and control, without knowledge even of the system they were born into. This can only produce a very unstable relationship to self/reality. And I find the idea of money/commodity exchange to be a deep motivator in creating a life that really isn't worth living in some ways (if only from the perspective of "the unexamined life is not worth living" school of thought--and who can honestly have both an examined life and a life lived based on what one has learnt from this process in cultures structured like ours ?).

 

 

Money for survival is one argument, but a life based only on the acceptance of this enforced mode of survival is surely an acceptance of totalitarianism. In the 'alternative' scene, new-age, spiritual blah... I see the newspeak that belies the helplessness that got people into the problem in the first place : green capitalism (as if it actually meant something) ;"abundance" to hide the the terms greed/desire; "alternatives" that have their production/resource base in the hands of the ones who created the need for alternatives.

 

Just a few thoughts.... since such thoughts rarely come up here. I'm always surprised about the lack of awareness regarding the effects of the exchange system of money on the minds of those who live in capitalism. Paul

[宁]

Did your first girlfriend make you pay in cash? If so, did she charge by the hour?

 

Most of the gf's i had 'made me' pay for movie tickets, clubs, restaurants, condoms... It's the priviledge of the gentleman... But it happens the other way around too these days, so it's not gender related... If you want a relationship and don't have the gold is heavy, do you think it will work?

For a gf, getting the Gold is a sign that you passed at least one bit of the survival exams you have to pass thru in life, in order to provide for an eventual future familiy...

And No, I didn't always pay in chash, sometimes I payed with my credit card...

You should see how that process magnifies after you get married...

 

 

When the kids come, magnify it to the power of 10

 

Also, he is attacking his own "Heaven" by hating "Heaven". He is closing it off.

 

If he is attacking Earth, Human, and Heaven...

 

what energy source does he have?

 

 

Negative energy is still energy... It's like the beggars that eat from dumpsters... they still eat...

[Inedible]

If I'm going to pay a teacher I prefer to start with little things until I can get a feel for if the teacher is the real deal.

[Dreamingawake]

Just some thoughts:

It's important to remember that the vicious ideology that world capitalism has become is based on certain life hating humanist principles that work well for a certain social mind-set. If you agree with the ideology you have to be prepared to take responsibility for the cause/effect relation that comes out of it- (war, poverty,class, hate,pollution, dislocation of integrity etc etc etc)- otherwise I imagine it will just produce what we 'westerners' insistantly call Bad Karma.This is how capitalism stands in the globlisation/new empire era. Perhaps we are suppossed to learn the causal relations between things by observing the money exchange system on a global scale rather than learn it from seeing a 400 million dollar feel-good fantasy like 'Avatar' which is the spectacles' way of making us live a pacified life as we learn of the total outrages committed by 'our' civilisations. Anyway, we do live in Kali Yuga.

The world monetary system (scam?) can be seen as very yin/yang like, very flow oriented but like the internet is the product of a certain thinking (in these cases the military and the elites, though I am always willing to concede that those with the control also have their hands on the 'best' systems through their understanding of esoteric natural principles),and has the same effects on human psychology as any simulacra designed to take us further from our 'true' selves. The interlocking effects of any system creates holographic effects in the populations' thinking,therefore behaviour- and round it goes. Of course those without the reference point of proper organic life connections and 'scientific' life principles see these examples (internet and money) as liberating for mankind, while the systems at the same time exclude competition through their viral like self-propogation/infection).

 

While people are almost absolute slaves to this type of exchange system throughout most of the world, the internalised threat of exclusion from this system and the consequences that would immediately come from it warp peoples psychology terribly. It's very widely known that those inside systems adopt the

thinking/behaviour/life of that system even if it kills them. I find most peoples' lives to be built like a house of cards- a life without true self-regulation and control, without knowledge even of the system they were born into. This can only produce a very unstable relationship to self/reality. And I find the idea of money/commodity exchange to be a deep motivator in creating a life that really isn't worth living in some ways (if only from the perspective of "the unexamined life is not worth living" school of thought--and who can honestly have both an examined life and a life lived based on what one has learnt from this process in cultures structured like ours ?).

Money for survival is one argument, but a life based only on the acceptance of this enforced mode of survival is surely an acceptance of totalitarianism. In the 'alternative' scene, new-age, spiritual blah... I see the newspeak that belies the helplessness that got people into the problem in the first place : green capitalism (as if it actually meant something) ;"abundance" to hide the the terms greed/desire; "alternatives" that have their production/resource base in the hands of the ones who created the need for alternatives.

 

Just a few thoughts.... since such thoughts rarely come up here. I'm always surprised about the lack of awareness regarding the effects of the exchange system of money on the minds of those who live in capitalism. Paul

 

Not to derail the thread but what is so vicious about capitalism and what does it have to do with 'life hating principols?' If I create something, that thing is mine. I have the right to request compensation before it can be taken from me. Thats what's called 'fair' in most civilizations that I'm aware of and it's the basis of capitalism.

The idea that something can be had for free at the expense of others who create/produce because I deserve it since I don't create/produce is selfish and narrow-minded. It also shows extremely low self esteem since this mindset comes from the idea that since I can't make myself 'equal,' I'll demand to be made 'equal.' Take a look at Americas economy. When it was closest to 'true' capitalism, the US flourished yet now it has become socialist and fascist in the extreme and is now only a few years away from total collapse. Things that affirm life BRING LIFE. The idea of fair trade (capitalism) makes countries flourish, and the selfish idea of taking without giving back (socialism/communism/fascism) destroys them just as quickly.

 

Almost all money in the world now is fiat. This means it is not connected to any concrete thing of any value anywhere. It's just worthless paper. For instance, a dollar bill; a bill for what? Generally, when presented with a bill, you pay it. All money is printed and then loaned at face value to be collected with interest which can only be paid by borrowing MORE money. So every 'bill' printed is actually exactly what it says; a mark of debt. But what is the debt to be paid? ENERGY! Money is a symbol to represent the exchange of energy; nothing more and nothing less. It's no more 'mundane' or 'spiritual' than sex, prayer or trading pokemon cards.

 

Cutting and dividing everything into "you can only exchange energy this way under these circumstances" but "it's not ok to exchange energy under these circumstances" amounts to MENTAL MASTURBATION and trying to push this 'reasoning' on me or anyone else is just an attempt to squirt in our eyes

 

This idea that spiritual teachings should be free is selfish bunk.

 

P.S. paul none of this is specifically aimed at you. your post just stood out so that's where I jumped in.

 

edit: typos

Edited December 27, 2009 by Dreamingawake

[lino]

Not to derail the thread but what is so vicious about capitalism and what does it have to do with 'life hating principols?' If I create something, that thing is mine. I have the right to request compensation before it can be taken from me. Thats what's called 'fair' in most civilizations that I'm aware of and it's the basis of capitalism.

The idea that something can be had for free at the expense of others who create/produce because I deserve it since I don't create/produce is selfish and narrow-minded. It also shows extremely low self esteem since this mindset comes from the idea that since I can't make myself 'equal,' I'll demand to be made 'equal.' Take a look at Americas economy. When it was closest to 'true' capitalism, the US flourished yet now it has become socialist and fascist in the extreme and is now only a few years away from total collapse. Things that affirm life BRING LIFE. The idea of fair trade (capitalism) makes countries flourish, and the selfish idea of taking without giving back (socialism/communism/fascism) destroys them just as quickly.

 

Almost all money in the world now is fiat. This means it is not connected to any concrete thing of any value anywhere. It's just worthless paper. For instance, a dollar bill; a bill for what? Generally, when presented with a bill, you pay it. All money is printed and then loaned at face value to be collected with interest which can only be paid by borrowing MORE money. So every 'bill' printed is actually exactly what it says; a mark of debt. But what is the debt to be paid? ENERGY! Money is a symbol to represent the exchange of energy; nothing more and nothing less. It's no more 'mundane' or 'spiritual' than sex, prayer or trading pokemon cards.

 

Cutting and dividing everything into "you can only exchange energy this way under these circumstances" but "it's not ok to exchange energy under these circumstances" amounts to MENTAL MASTURBATION and trying to push this 'reasoning' on me or anyone else is just an attempt to squirt in our eyes

 

This idea that spiritual teachings should be free is selfish bunk.

 

P.S. paul none of this is specifically aimed at you. your post just stood out so that's where I jumped in.

 

edit: typos

 

"Socialist and fascist"? If there was TRUE capitalism, everybody would starve, including today's neo-barons and neo-"noble"-men. Even with what we have now, I'm going to label as "unsatisfactoriness" and I sure hope that it is "IMPERMANENT".

 

What we got is a mutant strain of feudalism. If you don't have money, you don't have rights. Look in Brooklyn, a developer was able to kick out a whole community for private purposes and he had the Govt do it with "Imminent Domain". Sometimes I wonder if it is any good to own anything. For the sake of everybody, I hope things get better but I'm definitely not counting on it.

 

What you call "True Capitalism" was actually a racist caste.

Edited December 27, 2009 by lino

[lino]

Most of the gf's i had 'made me' pay for movie tickets, clubs, restaurants, condoms... It's the priviledge of the gentleman... But it happens the other way around too these days, so it's not gender related... If you want a relationship and don't have the gold is heavy, do you think it will work?

For a gf, getting the Gold is a sign that you passed at least one bit of the survival exams you have to pass thru in life, in order to provide for an eventual future familiy...

And No, I didn't always pay in chash, sometimes I payed with my credit card...

You should see how that process magnifies after you get married...

When the kids come, magnify it to the power of 10

Negative energy is still energy... It's like the beggars that eat from dumpsters... they still eat...

 

I truly doubt that he is getting negative energy. If a person is closed off then there is really nothing that will nourish them.

 

Even with free powerful teachings, a person may pay a lot more than they can afford. Dr.Ingram has expressed before that his state is very unstable. I doubt that anybody would want that in their life.

 

Also, I'm the kind of person that draws the line. ZERO bleedthrough from the zafu, walking, or any kind of practice into my meat life.

[C T]

Ken Wilber observes: "At every single moment, there can be a spontaneous awareness of

whatever happens to be present, and that simple, spontaneous, effortless awareness is

Spirit itself. Even if you think you do not see it, that very awareness is It. And thus the

ultimate state of consciousness - intrinsic Spirit itself - is not hard to reach, and impossible

to avoid."

 

And if we think for one minute that money have to be exchanged to simply wake up to

this realization above, then i am afraid we are only fooling ourselves.

 

If we are to find a teacher, one who is sincere about pointing out this, IMO, the true essence of

spirituality, we will see that whatever the teacher does can be summed up in two words: WAKE

UP! Open the 'eyes' and be totally present now, and for this simple direction, no payment is

necessary - no price is necessary - both from the student or from the teacher. But human

beings cannot accept that it can be that simple, so there arises the notions that there must

be tremendous hard work involved if one is to sweep away all the accumulated negativities

so that the ground can be fertile again, and one will then replant new seeds on this ground.

If this is to be true, then the possibility of an experience of sudden realization is to be thrown

out the window, and yet, if you really think about it, where is the real difference between one

who 'arrives' at sudden realization after 20 years of hard work, and one who decides, right

this moment, that one is already present, already 'here'? For 'here' is where you really want

to get to after 20 years of searching.. or not?

 

When one pays for something, it creates expectations, needs, pressures - and standards have

to be met, both by the payee and the service provider. These are measures. The question that

begs to be asked is, can the essence of spirituality be truly measured in any way? And please

do not bring 'energy' into the equation, for it is not, and never has been, the true purpose of

spiritual cultivation, for to open one's eyes hardly requires any infusion of super-energy in any

form.

[Dreamingawake]

"Socialist and fascist"? If there was TRUE capitalism, everybody would starve, including today's neo-barons and neo-"noble"-men. Even with what we have now, I'm going to label as "unsatisfactoriness" and I sure hope that it is "IMPERMANENT".

 

What we got is a mutant strain of feudalism. If you don't have money, you don't have rights. Look in Brooklyn, a developer was able to kick out a whole community for private purposes and he had the Govt do it with "Imminent Domain". Sometimes I wonder if it is any good to own anything. For the sake of everybody, I hope things get better but I'm definitely not counting on it.

 

What you call "True Capitalism" was actually a racist caste.

 

What your talking about is NOT capitalism, it's CORRUPTION. Imminent domain means the government takes your shit and gives it to someone else which is an interesting feature of SOCIALISM AND FASCISM. In true capitalism the government would exist only to PROTECT your rights rather than abolish them by stealing from you. Your using examples of the problem to bash the solution. That's dodgy logic.

[Dreamingawake]

Ken Wilber observes: "At every single moment, there can be a spontaneous awareness of

whatever happens to be present, and that simple, spontaneous, effortless awareness is

Spirit itself. Even if you think you do not see it, that very awareness is It. And thus the

ultimate state of consciousness - intrinsic Spirit itself - is not hard to reach, and impossible

to avoid."

 

And if we think for one minute that money have to be exchanged to simply wake up to

this realization above, then i am afraid we are only fooling ourselves.

 

If we are to find a teacher, one who is sincere about pointing out this, IMO, the true essence of

spirituality, we will see that whatever the teacher does can be summed up in two words: WAKE

UP! Open the 'eyes' and be totally present now, and for this simple direction, no payment is

necessary - no price is necessary - both from the student or from the teacher. But human

beings cannot accept that it can be that simple, so there arises the notions that there must

be tremendous hard work involved if one is to sweep away all the accumulated negativities

so that the ground can be fertile again, and one will then replant new seeds on this ground.

If this is to be true, then the possibility of an experience of sudden realization is to be thrown

out the window, and yet, if you really think about it, where is the real difference between one

who 'arrives' at sudden realization after 20 years of hard work, and one who decides, right

this moment, that one is already present, already 'here'? For 'here' is where you really want

to get to after 20 years of searching.. or not?

 

When one pays for something, it creates expectations, needs, pressures - and standards have

to be met, both by the payee and the service provider. These are measures. The question that

begs to be asked is, can the essence of spirituality be truly measured in any way? And please

do not bring 'energy' into the equation, for it is not, and never has been, the true purpose of

spiritual cultivation, for to open one's eyes hardly requires any infusion of super-energy in any

form.

 

I agree that spirituality can be difficult to quantify at best. However, A teacher's time and energy can and he/she has every right to be compensated for that time/effort just like any other teacher. Teachers are human too. They don't lose their natural rights the moment they start teaching 'spiritual' things. Teachers still need to eat and provide a home for their families just like the rest of us.

[lino]

What your talking about is NOT capitalism, it's CORRUPTION. Imminent domain means the government takes your shit and gives it to someone else which is an interesting feature of SOCIALISM AND FASCISM. In true capitalism the government would exist only to PROTECT your rights rather than abolish them by stealing from you. Your using examples of the problem to bash the solution. That's dodgy logic.

 

Corruption?

 

Nope

 

That is the way this government was designed to be.

 

And you think that in capitalism it would be any different? The person that has the most money wins in capitalism simply because the other guy is going to run out of money.

 

BTW...I have to change what I said before. This system is a mutant strain of DEBTISM and undercover FEUDALISM.

[Dreamingawake]

Corruption?

 

Nope

 

That is the way this government was designed to be.

 

And you think that in capitalism it would be any different? The person that has the most money wins in capitalism simply because the other guy is going to run out of money.

 

BTW...I have to change what I said before. This system is a mutant strain of DEBTISM and undercover FEUDALISM.

 

The government was designed to PROTECT the rights of the people. no more, no less. Check out the constitution and you'll see what I mean. All the evils we see in government today are perversions under color of law.

 

Anyway, we are derailing this thread. I only brought it up to point out the large scale consequences of the selfish something-for-nothing mentality that leads to the idea that teachers should not be compensated. And before people start whining "We pay in other ways!" no, your just selfish and coming up with excuses why this makes you more 'spiritual' than the ones teaching. It's called the sour grapes theory.

[lino]

The government was designed to PROTECT the rights of the people. no more, no less. Check out the constitution and you'll see what I mean. All the evils we see in government today are perversions under color of law.

 

Anyway, we are derailing this thread. I only brought it up to point out the large scale consequences of the selfish something-for-nothing mentality that leads to the idea that teachers should not be compensated. And before people start whining "We pay in other ways!" no, your just selfish and coming up with excuses why this makes you more 'spiritual' than the ones teaching. It's called the sour grapes theory.

 

I'm sorry but I don't feel that you are being observant enough.

 

At first, the constitution was supposed to protect white land owners.

 

Then nonwhites and non-landowners were supposedly given "equal protection".

 

The guy that runs the other guy out of money by putting in appeal after appeal wins...PERIOD. People that don't have the huge amount of money in order to support themselves in a courtroom HAVE NO RIGHTS. THIS IS HOW GOVERNMENT IS DESIGNED.

 

I'm not arguing whether teachers should be compensated because I think that they should be well compensated simply for the fact that it could be the difference in between heaven and hell.

 

I call it like I see'em. You want to buy into the brainwashing that school gave you then that is your problem.

 

Good Luck to you

[ShaktiMama]

I charge for my time regardless of what I am teaching.

 

I have heard all these arguments before. Nice to talk about but doesn't play out it in the real world. It is an individual, case by case basis, on what to charge or not charge people who have no money.

 

I have no interest in changing the way I do business. IMO, if more people ran their lives like a responsible small business owner there would be more accountability and better results in their lives.

 

Notice I said small business owner and not like a multinational corporation. To say they are just alike in theory is naive.

 

Make up your own business model on how you want to teach. Do what works and what conforms to your personal ethics. Otherwise we waste our time talking about how to do it instead of actually doing it.

[Sundragon]

Short answer...YES.

 

It is entirely appropriate for someone who doesn't live in a monastary off the donations of others to ask for payment for any and all services as they so choose. Outside of those living in monastaries or mountaintops these teachers have bills, families to support, mortgages to pay, food to buy and, dare I say it, some luxuries they might wish to have. You aren't unspiritual if you desire a nice, cozy lifestyle for yourself so long as you aren't attached and you also do good with your money.

 

Some folks seem to expect people who have specialized knowledge and who make their only livelyhood teaching to do it all for free. What and get a day job to pay the bills so they can appear more spiritual? It is a dream of many who have specialized knowledge and a passion for what they do to be able to make a comfortable living doing what they love to do.

 

It takes time to set up a curriculum. It takes time to create a product to sell to prospective students. It takes up a lot of time trianing and teaching others even if it something that is fulfilling. Time is perhaps the teacher's most valuable resource because every moment with their students is time away from other important obligations they may have such as their family. At last if they are teaching for 8hrs a day and getting paid they won't need to work a second job to pay their bills and be forced to spend even more time away from their family or even their personal spiritual practices.

 

I don't care personally that guru whatshisface and master whatshisname lived on air and sunlight, only ate the chi of devotees and shit rose pettles that radiated unconditional love...that was a different time even if that kind of stuff is true which I doubt. We live in this world at this time. No one has the right to expect something for nothing and to expect solid, specialized instruction for free in a world where the teacher requires money to survive is nonsensical and reeks of an entitlement mindset. No insult intended.

 

I know certain things and it took me a lot of time (years depending on what it is) and money (specialized trainings, books, seminars, etc.) to learn those things. If I choose to give knowlege away fine, it is mine to give. However I have every right to asked to be compensated for my work and an exchange of energy isn't going to put food on my table or buy my son's clothing for school. If I am fortunate enough to teach full time in the future that will be both my passion and my livelihood and so long as I am honest (which I would be) about what a student could expect regarding what I am teaching them then I have a right to not only ask for compensation but to ask whatever payment I wish. And because I am not forcing someone to accept my training, they can either pay or refuse.

 

I apologize if this post seems angry as that wasn't my intention. It is my goal to teach esoteric/spiritual ideas as I have 25yrs of combined experience with a number of subjects and to see that some actually seem to think that making money teaching spiritual subject matter/practice is somehow wrong is hard to accept. I think that greed is a huge negative, but it is up to each person to find out what kind of livelihood is right livelihood 'for them' and to find balance because. As in all things, one must be careful but I believe a balance is certainly possible. I think it is unbalanced to expect that all spiritual teachers live as ascetics to prove how "spiritual" they are.

 

 

Love and Peace,

 

Sundragon

Edited December 27, 2009 by Sundragon

[Dreamingawake]

I'm sorry but I don't feel that you are being observant enough.

 

At first, the constitution was supposed to protect white land owners.

 

Then nonwhites and non-landowners were supposedly given "equal protection".

 

The guy that runs the other guy out of money by putting in appeal after appeal wins...PERIOD. People that don't have the huge amount of money in order to support themselves in a courtroom HAVE NO RIGHTS. THIS IS HOW GOVERNMENT IS DESIGNED.

 

I'm not arguing whether teachers should be compensated because I think that they should be well compensated simply for the fact that it could be the difference in between heaven and hell.

 

I call it like I see'em. You want to buy into the brainwashing that school gave you then that is your problem.

 

Good Luck to you

 

The gov was designed to protect itself from idiots. Stupid people are WAY too easy to control and could therefore be used to corrupt the system through mass manipulation (as is so common today). The only people who could be counted on to make educated responsible decisions were educated people and back then the most easily measurable common denominator was land ownership. This benchmark may not have held up well over time but back then thats what they had to work with. Or do you think the people from the ghettos or the trailer parks of today demanding big brother wipe their ass for them have any idea how to run a sensible government? I'm not saying the system was perfect, but until it became totally corrupted around the time of FDR, it worked damn well. America was the smartest and most powerful nation in the world until it started rotting from the inside from corruption with socialist/fascist ideals. The something-for-nothing mentality destroys everything it touches.

 

Accusing me of being brainwashed for believing in honesty and fair trade doesn't really hold up well to a rational mind. The idea that more socialism can solve the problems caused by socialism is how we end up with things like the banker bailout. Last I checked, all the propaganda being put out in the media SUPPORTS big brother/totalitarian socialist government and claims that the fair trade ideal that has been almost totally out of play for 50+ years is somehow responsible for all the problems that have sprung up since leaving fair trade. Wake up bro, a lot of what your saying comes directly from the talking heads in the school/mass media propaganda machine.

 

If you believe that teachers should be compensated for their time/energy/work, then why not everyone else?

[lino]

Short answer...YES.

 

It is entirely appropriate for someone who doesn't live in a monastary off the donations of others to ask for payment for any and all services as they so choose. Outside of those living in monastaries or mountaintops these teachers have bills, families to support, mortgages to pay, food to buy and, dare I say it, some luxuries they might wish to have. You aren't unspiritual if you desire a nice, cozy lifestyle for yourself so long as you aren't attached and you also do good with your money.

 

Some folks seem to expect people who have specialized knowledge and who make their only livelyhood teaching to do it all for free. What and get a day job to pay the bills so they can appear more spiritual? It is a dream of many who have specialized knowledge and a passion for what they do to be able to make a comfortable living doing what they love to do.

 

It takes time to set up a curriculum. It takes time to create a product to sell to prospective students. It takes up a lot of time trianing and teaching others even if it something that is fulfilling. Time is perhaps the teacher's most valuable resource because every moment with their students is time away from other important obligations they may have such as their family. At last if they are teaching for 8hrs a day and getting paid they won't need to work a second job to pay their bills and be forced to spend even more time away from their family or even their personal spiritual practices.

 

I don't care personally that guru whatshisface and master whatshisname lived on air and sunlight, only ate the chi of devotees and shit rose pettles that radiated unconditional love...that was a different time even if that kind of stuff is true which I doubt. We live in this world at this time. No one has the right to expect something for nothing and to expect solid, specialized instruction for free in a world where the teacher requires money to survive is nonsensical and reeks of an entitlement mindset. No insult intended.

 

I know certain things and it took me a lot of time (years depending on what it is) and money (specialized trainings, books, seminars, etc.) to learn those things. If I choose to give knowlege away fine, it is mine to give. However I have every right to asked to be compensated for my work and an exchange of energy isn't going to put food on my table or buy my son's clothing for school. If I am fortunate enough to teach full time in the future that will be both my passion and my livelihood and so long as I am honest (which I would be) about what a student could expect regarding what I am teaching them then I have a right to not only ask for compensation but to ask whatever payment I wish. And because I am not forcing someone to accept my training, they can either pay or refuse.

 

I apologize if this post seems angry as that wasn't my intention. It is my goal to teach esoteric/spiritual ideas as I have 25yrs of combined experience with a number of subjects and to see that some actually seem to think that making money teaching spiritual subject matter/practice is somehow wrong is hard to accept. I think that greed is a huge negative, but it is up to each person to find out what kind of livelihood is right livelihood 'for them' and to find balance because. As in all things, one must be careful but I believe a balance is certainly possible. I think it is unbalanced to expect that all spiritual teachers live as ascetics to prove how "spiritual" they are.

Love and Peace,

 

Sundragon

 

Add in when a student runs into trouble, really needs a lot of help, and it takes a lot of the teacher's time. The teacher should be well compensated.

[Dreamingawake]

Short answer...YES.

 

I cut out the rest of the quote to save space but your entire post sums it up pretty much perfectly

[Sundragon]

Add in when a student runs into trouble, really needs a lot of help, and it takes a lot of the teacher's time. The teacher should be well compensated.

 

Absolutely. The more specialized instruction needed the more it should cost. Predicated on our assumption that most teachers would rather be paid than not. For those that wish to work for free....more power to them. Its all about choice.

 

I cut out the rest of the quote to save space but your entire post sums it up pretty much perfectly

 

I aim to be a /threadkiller when I'm able.

 

 

Love and Peace,

 

Sundragon

Edited December 28, 2009 by Sundragon

[lino]

The gov was designed to protect itself from idiots. Stupid people are WAY too easy to control and could therefore be used to corrupt the system through mass manipulation (as is so common today). The only people who could be counted on to make educated responsible decisions were educated people and back then the most easily measurable common denominator was land ownership. This benchmark may not have held up well over time but back then thats what they had to work with. Or do you think the people from the ghettos or the trailer parks of today demanding big brother wipe their ass for them have any idea how to run a sensible government? I'm not saying the system was perfect, but until it became totally corrupted around the time of FDR, it worked damn well. America was the smartest and most powerful nation in the world until it started rotting from the inside from corruption with socialist/fascist ideals. The something-for-nothing mentality destroys everything it touches.

 

Accusing me of being brainwashed for believing in honesty and fair trade doesn't really hold up well to a rational mind. The idea that more socialism can solve the problems caused by socialism is how we end up with things like the banker bailout. Last I checked, all the propaganda being put out in the media SUPPORTS big brother/totalitarian socialist government and claims that the fair trade ideal that has been almost totally out of play for 50+ years is somehow responsible for all the problems that have sprung up since leaving fair trade. Wake up bro, a lot of what your saying comes directly from the talking heads in the school/mass media propaganda machine.

 

If you believe that teachers should be compensated for their time/energy/work, then why not everyone else?

 

I am not arguing about a something-for-nothing mentality. And you DAMN WELL proved my point because you are calling the average "Joe Blow" an idiot. I am from what is considered a ghetto and the last thing I want to do is enter a court. Also, something for almost NOTHING is being gained by a moneyed class when it could put in appeal after appeal and set an undercover precedent. The next guy on the street will see it and may do nothing about it or just pick his spot and put a bullet in the offender.

 

Would you like to be attritioned out of your imaginary "rights" simply because the other guy has more money than you?

 

Sorry but your version of "history" doesn't hold up. An imaginary "middle class" didn't exist until FDR's time.

Before that we have Company towns, Hoovervilles, children working in factories for 18-20 hours a day, Bonus Army, Gilded 20s, and nonwhites getting kicked down along with blacks getting lynched in order to steal a black's property.

 

From my observations, your perfect world is one where the majority of people just struggle to work 18-20 hours a day to put scraps and crumblings of food on the table in a barely livable mud hut or cockroach-infested tenement while a tiny few enjoy extreme excess. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited December 27, 2009 by lino

[Trunk]

... what I am saying is eminently reasonable.

It is OK to charge for teaching if:

...

 

It is NOT OK to charge for teaching:

...

While I know that this topic comes up from time to time, it still surprises me. It seems to me the most ungrounded and unreasonable, ignoring just simple basic facts of getting along in the world which everyone must face.

 

Consider even the most basic expenses for a meditation seminar, or on-going meditation class:

- advertise

- rent the hall

 

Where do you thing the $ comes from to put on such things? Do you think an enlightened teacher just materializes cash to pay for all of his or her expenses?

[ShaktiMama]

While I know that this topic comes up from time to time, it still surprises me. It seems to me the most ungrounded and unreasonable, ignoring just simple basic facts of getting along in the world which everyone must face.

 

Consider even the most basic expenses for a meditation seminar, or on-going meditation class:

- advertise

- rent the hall

 

Where do you thing the $ comes from to put on such things? Do you think an enlightened teacher just materializes cash to pay for all of his or her expenses?

 

you funny

 

i love thread killers kudos to you and sundragon

[Enishi]

In regards to capitalism before FDR, it should be kept in mind that capitalism has never existed in a "pure" form. There has always been some degree of a mercantilist element in it. Giving a corporation the legal rights of a person is one of these IMO, along with the "right" of a factory owner to overwork his employees when said owner isn't even physically present.

 

The mutualist blogger Kevin Carson talks a lot about this:

 

http://flag.blackened.net/daver/anarchism/iron_fist.html

 

My own current views are more in line with the article below:

 

http://www.newworldeconomics.com/archives/2009/112909.html

 

And yes, unfortunately, the USA IS becoming more fascist, as can be seen in the banker bailouts which Bush initiated and Obama has continued, along with other favored groups getting something for nothing.

Edited December 27, 2009 by Enishi