Is it OK to charge people money for instruction?

[C T]

Zen is simply a voice crying, "WAKE UP, WAKE UP!"

- Maha Sthavira Sangharakshita

 

Studying about Zen should not be confused with practicing Zen,

just as studying aesthetics should not be confused with being

an artist.

- T.P. Kasulis

 

Zen has no business with ideas.

- D. T. Suzuki

 

In life as well as in art, Zen never wastes energy in stopping

to explain; it only points.

- Alan Watts

 

Zen functions in non-duality. The process of thought or reasoning,

takes place in the field of duality. It follows that no thinking will

achieve Zen.

- Christmas Humphreys

 

Zen is not some kind of excitement, but mindfulness of our

usual everyday routine.

- Shunryu Suzuki

 

Zen cannot be defined. It is not a *thing* to be surrounded or

reflected by words, When the last word is trawled into the

prison it escapes and laughs away on the horizon.

- David Brandon

 

The only Zen you find on top of the mountain is the Zen

you bring up there.

- Robert Pirsig

 

The aim of Zen is enlightenment: the immediate, unreflected

grasp on reality, without affective contamination and

intellectualization, the simple realization of the relation of

myself to the universe.

- Erich Fromm

 

Zen is consciousness unstructured by any particular form

or particular system, a trans-cultural, trans-religious,

transformed consciousness.

- Thomas Merton

 

(There are hundreds more by the way)

 

See these quotes? They all say one thing. And they all represent only one school of thought.

If we search some of the other schools of thought, (the real ones) most, if not all, reflect similar notions.

They are not dogmas. They simply point to direct awakening, this very moment. Now, if these

pointing-outs are taken on board, there is not much else to do, but then, there are some

who come along and say, hey look! this is the taste of awakening, and you have to do steps

1 2 3 4 5 before you can get the real thing.. and it costs 300 dollars for step 1, 400 for step

2, and 500 for step 3 - and steps 4 and 5 are for graduates of steps 1, 2 and 3, and they are

refresher courses, and we then take you to some island retreat and go back thru steps 1, 2 and 3.,

and thereafter, you 'graduate', and will receive the lineage transmission which qualifies you

to be an instructor for new level one students. Then if you want to teach level 2, you need to attend

an advanced instructors' program, costing 2000 bucks where you will receive the mahaguru's initiation

and etc. Oh, there's more: After 5 years, you will have gathered enough experience and technical

know-how, and for another 2000 bucks, we will then certify you to be a Mahaguru yourself - now

isnt that sweet? (I too have seen all this 'game' before... and was playing for a while, until i woke up).

 

Is this cheating? Of course its not, as long as there are suckers who wants to be duped into

taking the long road home, and there are tons of these folks out there! Oh, all kinds of systems,

and promises of freedom and abundance - but underneath it all, they all say one thing, you, the

individual, have to wake up from your dreams, which is what the above quotes are hinting at.

Did they cost anything to read, other than a little eye strain and minimal electricity costs? And these

are not some esoterica mumbo-jumbo by the way.

 

The funniest thing is people do not want to see how easy it really is. They cannot, because

people are simply too 'smart' nowadays. The materialism aspect has to play a part in the

exchange, otherwise its worthless, all talk, and no action. Well, if that is what you want to

hang on to, by all means, pay. In twenty years, assuming you do attain *Liberation*, you

will look back and see how really stupid you have been to have wasted all the time, energy

and MONEY to arrive back at the place you have never left!! Aint that slightly humorous?

 

On the other hand, if its energy work or martial arts that you are teaching, by all means charge.

Its totally and absolutely fair. But if it boils down to awakening, its a different story altogether.

And please dont justify on behalf of teachers, for there are hundreds, if not thousands of Zen

centers that teaches the basics of awakening absolutely free of charge, not to mention all the

other Buddhist schools around. Unfortunately,modern folks prefer the more sophisticated systems.

Why? It feels better, and offers more distractions, and there's always plenty of warm brotherly/sisterly

LURVE available to those who have paid their fees/subscriptions!!

Edited December 27, 2009 by CowTao

[Trunk]

Just to kick it up a notch...

 

If you really really think that a spiritual teacher shouldn't charge anyone, then I suggest that you "make it so" in a real, adult, responsible fashion:

Become a benefactor. Find a spiritual teacher that you admire and offer to cover all of his/her expen$es plus some reasonable living expenses (unless the teacher has that covered through a regular job). In exchange the teacher would agree to offer services to others for free.

 

That would be a practical way of implementing your ideal.

[Inedible]

Add in when a student runs into trouble, really needs a lot of help, and it takes a lot of the teacher's time. The teacher should be well compensated.

 

Personally I prefer to go to teachers who are teaching as a way of enhancing their own ongoing learning. People tend to learn things more thoroughly when they start from the beginning with the expectation that someday they will be doing the teaching. It is hard to find a good student. A good student can be more satisfying than being paid in money.

[ShaktiMama]

Just to kick it up a notch...

 

If you really really think that a spiritual teacher shouldn't charge anyone, then I suggest that you "make it so" in a real, adult, responsible fashion:

Become a benefactor. Find a spiritual teacher that you admire and offer to cover all of his/her expen$es plus some reasonable living expenses (unless the teacher has that covered through a regular job). In exchange the teacher would agree to offer services to others for free.

 

That would be a practical way of implementing your ideal.

 

 

hahahahahahahaha

 

then what would there be for people to bitch about?

[Dreamingawake]

I am not arguing about a something-for-nothing mentality. And you DAMN WELL proved my point because you are calling the average "Joe Blow" an idiot. I am from what is considered a ghetto and the last thing I want to do is enter a court. Also, something for almost NOTHING is being gained by a moneyed class when it could put in appeal after appeal and set an undercover precedent. The next guy on the street will see it and may do nothing about it or just pick his spot and put a bullet in the offender.

 

Would you like to be attritioned out of your imaginary "rights" simply because the other guy has more money than you?

 

Sorry but your version of "history" doesn't hold up. An imaginary "middle class" didn't exist until FDR's time.

Before that we have Company towns, Hoovervilles, children working in factories for 18-20 hours a day, Bonus Army, Gilded 20s, and nonwhites getting kicked down along with blacks getting lynched in order to steal a black's property.

 

From my observations, your perfect world is one where the majority of people just struggle to work 18-20 hours a day to put scraps and crumblings of food on the table in a barely livable mud hut or cockroach-infested tenement while a tiny few enjoy extreme excess. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I didn't call the average 'joe blow' an idiot. Your getting a little too heated and putting words in my mouth. I also said nothing a bout a middle class so when do you suppose I 'imagined' that? Those who have lots of money prescribe to something-for-nothing just as much as poor people. Hell you could say that is a large part of the CAUSE of these current problems since they used their money and power to corrupt the system in their favor. Court is easier for rich than it is for poor because of money but that is also due to this corruption. FDR EXTENDED the great depression by several years, with his hoovervilles and company towns, and it was the corrupt bankers that helped put FDR into who actually CREATED the great depression as an excuse to create the central banking system which has helped created our current financial problems.

 

My perfect world is actually very different from the one you use to demonize someone for disagreeing with you. I can understand the need to use emotional imagery but, yes you are very, very wrong. The conditions you describe are a direct result of the something-for-nothing corruption of the corporate elite I'm talking about. Their standard method for the last 50+ years has been to implement corrupt socialist/fascist ideals than blame capitalism for the problems they just created. And guess what their solution is? That's right, more something-for-nothing socialism/fascism. The worse things get, the more they blame capitalism until Russia err... America totally collapses.

 

Used to be one had to prove to the government that a corporation served the public good and benefited the community at large to be granted a charter. Now it just takes a little paperwork to nearly completely absolve oneself of financial responsibility. That's NOT capitalism. That's corruption. Under capitalism, the 'middle class' flourishes while socialism and fascism crush the middle class into oblivion leaving only the super rich and the super poor. Look for instance at the graduated income tax. The super rich pay almost no taxes because they can afford the best tax lawyers and the super poor pay almost no taxes because they don't make enough to take. The 'middle class' on the other hand get 1/4 or sometimes even 1/3 of their yearly income stolen to pay for bloated, useless bureaucracy.

[lino]

I didn't call the average 'joe blow' an idiot. Your getting a little too heated and putting words in my mouth. I also said nothing a bout a middle class so when do you suppose I 'imagined' that? Those who have lots of money prescribe to something-for-nothing just as much as poor people. Hell you could say that is a large part of the CAUSE of these current problems since they used their money and power to corrupt the system in their favor. Court is easier for rich than it is for poor because of money but that is also due to this corruption. FDR EXTENDED the great depression by several years, with his hoovervilles and company towns, and it was the corrupt bankers that helped put FDR into who actually CREATED the great depression as an excuse to create the central banking system which has helped created our current financial problems.

 

My perfect world is actually very different from the one you use to demonize someone for disagreeing with you. I can understand the need to use emotional imagery but, yes you are very, very wrong. The conditions you describe are a direct result of the something-for-nothing corruption of the corporate elite I'm talking about. Their standard method for the last 50+ years has been to implement corrupt socialist/fascist ideals than blame capitalism for the problems they just created. And guess what their solution is? That's right, more something-for-nothing socialism/fascism. The worse things get, the more they blame capitalism until Russia err... America totally collapses.

 

Used to be one had to prove to the government that a corporation served the public good and benefited the community at large to be granted a charter. Now it just takes a little paperwork to nearly completely absolve oneself of financial responsibility. That's NOT capitalism. That's corruption. Under capitalism, the 'middle class' flourishes while socialism and fascism crush the middle class into oblivion leaving only the super rich and the super poor. Look for instance at the graduated income tax. The super rich pay almost no taxes because they can afford the best tax lawyers and the super poor pay almost no taxes because they don't make enough to take. The 'middle class' on the other hand get 1/4 or sometimes even 1/3 of their yearly income stolen to pay for bloated, useless bureaucracy.

 

You keep calling it "something-for-nothing" or corruption.

 

I call it design. The govt was designed to be that way.

 

The "standard method" that you describe has been implemented since "government" was created by man.

 

Corporations were not meant to serve the public good in the first place. If it took a charter then the same rich had to pull strings and grease palms for it.

 

Sorry but the USSR was "communist" in name only. It set up a lower class and an upper class.

 

True capitalism at its truest nature is Social Darwinism. You take what little you gained in imaginary "rights" and give it away and what you get is a lot of employers firing people at the drop of a hat in order to hire a lower wage worker <--- that will get repeated for a few cycles until the worker is being paid next-to-nothing for 18-20 hours a day...or maybe...it is going to get done during this recession/depression <--- notice that I'm not calling it a recession/depression cycle because the significant drop in quality of life for a huge chunk of Americans is permanent.

 

The "middle class" is, at best, imaginary. Many people have already found that they were one medical catastrophe or one job loss (maybe both combined) away from being homeless...after the fact.

 

The "middle class" isn't doing it right. The "middle class" isn't setting up "charities" and "foundations"...which I think might be worth investigation by some of the more prominent members at thetaobums since they serve the public good anyway.

Edited December 28, 2009 by lino

[Dreamingawake]

You keep calling it "something-for-nothing" or corruption.

 

I call it design. The govt was designed to be that way.

 

The "standard method" that you describe has been implemented since "government" was created by man.

 

Corporations were not meant to serve the public good in the first place. If it took a charter then the same rich had to pull strings and grease palms for it.

 

Sorry but the USSR was "communist" in name only. It set up a lower class and an upper class.

 

True capitalism at its truest nature is Social Darwinism. You take what little you gained in imaginary "rights" and give it away and what you get is a lot of employers firing people at the drop of a hat in order to hire a lower wage worker <--- that will get repeated for a few cycles until the worker is being paid next-to-nothing for 18-20 hours a day...or maybe...it is going to get done during this recession/depression <--- notice that I'm not calling it a recession/depression cycle because the significant drop in quality of life for a huge chunk of Americans is permanent.

 

The "middle class" is, at best, imaginary. Many people have already found that they were one medical catastrophe or one job loss (maybe both combined) away from being homeless...after the fact.

 

The "middle class" isn't doing it right. The "middle class" isn't setting up "charities" and "foundations"...which I think might be worth investigation by some of the more prominent members at thetaobums since they serve the public good anyway.

 

Your absolutely right. I keep saying it in the hopes that it might sink in. You keep blaming capitalists for the actions of socialists, communists, and fascists. if you want to talk about systems designed to create the super-rich and super-poor, then lets take a look shall we? In fascism the rich corrupt the government to their own ends through lobbying, bribery, and 'color of law' until they literally own the government.

 

In socialism and communism you convince the middle and lower class that the rich have too much at the expense of the little guy. Then you encourage the something-for-nothing, take-from-the-rich-and-give-to-the-poor ideal and get them all wound up with promises to make everybody 'equal.' The people willingly give the few who orchestrate the whole thing ALL the power so he/she/they can play robinhood and those few simply never give anything back. Now they have all the power/wealth and nobody else has a pot to piss in. That is how these systems are designed. They are simply different methods of creating a totalitarian dictatorship.

 

Capitalism has at it's heart the earn-what-you-get, fair-compensation mentality. When you say teachers deserve to be compensated, your supporting capitalism. So when you turn around and bash the very idea you just supported it's a little confusing to anyone who expects continuity of thought or coherent logic. If you try to hate and love the same thing at the same time, create a self defeating ideology which is generally the exact opposite of what anyone on this board would want.

 

At the beginning of America, the founders said that ALL government was, at best, a necessary evil. They decided that a limited government was the best that could be done. As long as it's powers were kept in check, it could never interfere in society on too large a scale. FDR intimidated the supreme court into submission, then appointed corrupt judges to rapidly expand the powers of government in direct violation of the Constitution. He convinced the people that it was OK because he was gonna give them a 'new deal' free money for everybody. This was the start of many, if not all, of the problems to be found in our government now. However if you listen to the propaganda put out in school and the mass media without actually checking the facts yourself, you will be taught that capitalism is responsible and we need more government power to stop the greedy capitalists. Meanwhile those 'greedy capitalists' i.e. the corporate elite are actually greedy socialists/communists/fascists sending you on a wild goose chase. As long as you hate capitalism like a good little sheep you'll never question the real problems.

 

Really, I suspect that your not so much arguing for the idea so much as just arguing with me. I suspect that I offended you with my remark about ghettos and trailer parks (not my intent). Guess what? I've lived in both too and I got the hell out as soon as I could. Most of the people I've known in and from those places (while often nice enough people) had a terrible entitlement mindset and spouted socialism/fascism/communism and how much they hated capitalism and rich people without ever really having any idea what they were talking about.

 

Generally the extremely poor (often found in ghettos and trailer parks due to said poverty) also have little or no education (again, due to said poverty) and so only know what they see in the media; which mean they know NOTHING about how to run a sensible government. This is not an insult; this is a fact. Just because you are from a ghetto and generally seem to have a good head on your shoulders does not mean that everyone else in your area is the same. Go talk to your neighbors and they'll probably agree with 99% of the propaganda you've repeated here.

 

I should point out that I'm not trying to offend anyone; least of all, you lino. I generally like your posts and think we would get along in person (so long as your not hot tempered ) I'm just pointing out a huge flaw in logic as I see it. If I've struck a nerve then look inside and find out why.

 

Wow that was much longer than I meant it to be soo.. I'm off to bed.

Much love and peace to everyone here.

[Ya Mu]

...

Where do you thing the $ comes from to put on such things? Do you think an enlightened teacher just materializes cash to pay for all of his or her expenses?

 

I was hoping the OP would set me up with a trust fund so I would not have to charge.

 

Just to kick it up a notch...

 

If you really really think that a spiritual teacher shouldn't charge anyone, then I suggest that you "make it so" in a real, adult, responsible fashion:

Become a benefactor. Find a spiritual teacher that you admire and offer to cover all of his/her expen$es plus some reasonable living expenses (unless the teacher has that covered through a regular job). In exchange the teacher would agree to offer services to others for free.

 

That would be a practical way of implementing your ideal.

 

Everything that we do, whether teaching, participating in a class, or walking down the street, should be a Sacred act. And if it is not, then one has no concept of true wu wei.

 

Don't understand this thread (I toned this down - first I typed "what utter bullshit this thread is", but that wouldn't be nice, so I changed it).

Why be afraid of the Sacred?

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

A good student can be more satisfying than being paid in money.....

 

 

...Especially if she's hot!

 

sorry.

[Sundragon]

...Especially if she's hot!

 

sorry.

So true...

 

...and single

...and deperate for personalized instruction.

...and sexually open.

 

Ah...hot students mmmmmmmmm.

 

(anyone who is offended by this needs to meditate more in order to get over themselves)

 

 

Love and Peace,

 

Sundragon

Edited December 28, 2009 by Sundragon

[Inedible]

Threads like these are just asking to be derailed anyway.

[Dreamingawake]

So true...

 

...and single

...and deperate for personalized instruction.

...and sexually open.

 

Ah...hot students mmmmmmmmm.

 

(anyone who is offended by this needs to meditate more in order to get over themselves)

Love and Peace,

 

Sundragon

I may have to become a teacher one day

 

Reminds me of GTO lol Google 'Great Teacher Onizuka' if you don't know what I'm talking about.

[lino]

Your absolutely right. I keep saying it in the hopes that it might sink in. You keep blaming capitalists for the actions of socialists, communists, and fascists. if you want to talk about systems designed to create the super-rich and super-poor, then lets take a look shall we? In fascism the rich corrupt the government to their own ends through lobbying, bribery, and 'color of law' until they literally own the government.

 

In socialism and communism you convince the middle and lower class that the rich have too much at the expense of the little guy. Then you encourage the something-for-nothing, take-from-the-rich-and-give-to-the-poor ideal and get them all wound up with promises to make everybody 'equal.' The people willingly give the few who orchestrate the whole thing ALL the power so he/she/they can play robinhood and those few simply never give anything back. Now they have all the power/wealth and nobody else has a pot to piss in. That is how these systems are designed. They are simply different methods of creating a totalitarian dictatorship.

 

Capitalism has at it's heart the earn-what-you-get, fair-compensation mentality. When you say teachers deserve to be compensated, your supporting capitalism. So when you turn around and bash the very idea you just supported it's a little confusing to anyone who expects continuity of thought or coherent logic. If you try to hate and love the same thing at the same time, create a self defeating ideology which is generally the exact opposite of what anyone on this board would want.

 

At the beginning of America, the founders said that ALL government was, at best, a necessary evil. They decided that a limited government was the best that could be done. As long as it's powers were kept in check, it could never interfere in society on too large a scale. FDR intimidated the supreme court into submission, then appointed corrupt judges to rapidly expand the powers of government in direct violation of the Constitution. He convinced the people that it was OK because he was gonna give them a 'new deal' free money for everybody. This was the start of many, if not all, of the problems to be found in our government now. However if you listen to the propaganda put out in school and the mass media without actually checking the facts yourself, you will be taught that capitalism is responsible and we need more government power to stop the greedy capitalists. Meanwhile those 'greedy capitalists' i.e. the corporate elite are actually greedy socialists/communists/fascists sending you on a wild goose chase. As long as you hate capitalism like a good little sheep you'll never question the real problems.

 

Really, I suspect that your not so much arguing for the idea so much as just arguing with me. I suspect that I offended you with my remark about ghettos and trailer parks (not my intent). Guess what? I've lived in both too and I got the hell out as soon as I could. Most of the people I've known in and from those places (while often nice enough people) had a terrible entitlement mindset and spouted socialism/fascism/communism and how much they hated capitalism and rich people without ever really having any idea what they were talking about.

 

Generally the extremely poor (often found in ghettos and trailer parks due to said poverty) also have little or no education (again, due to said poverty) and so only know what they see in the media; which mean they know NOTHING about how to run a sensible government. This is not an insult; this is a fact. Just because you are from a ghetto and generally seem to have a good head on your shoulders does not mean that everyone else in your area is the same. Go talk to your neighbors and they'll probably agree with 99% of the propaganda you've repeated here.

 

I should point out that I'm not trying to offend anyone; least of all, you lino. I generally like your posts and think we would get along in person (so long as your not hot tempered ) I'm just pointing out a huge flaw in logic as I see it. If I've struck a nerve then look inside and find out why.

 

Wow that was much longer than I meant it to be soo.. I'm off to bed.

Much love and peace to everyone here.

 

Doh!

 

I knew about it before but I didn't really internalize it. They play both sides of the field. Forgot about Bloomberg...but they still have roughly similar behavior.

Edited December 28, 2009 by lino

[Dreamingawake]

Doh!

 

I knew about it before but I didn't really internalize it. They play both sides of the field.

 

The only way for totalitarians to win is to hedge their bets by playing both sides of the game. Any huge event you see on the news has at least two sides and the elite are on both of them. 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain' because things are much easier for him if you stare at his shell game

 

It just occurred to me that as long as we fight about HOW they should rule us, we'll never get to IF they should rule us.. ( here, us = society at large)

[lino]

The only way for totalitarians to win is to hedge their bets by playing both sides of the game. Any huge event you see on the news has at least two sides and the elite are on both of them. 'Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain' because things are much easier for him if you stare at his shell game

 

It just occurred to me that as long as we fight about HOW they should rule us, we'll never get to IF they should rule us.. ( here, us = society at large)

 

They shouldn't. You said most people are stupid, I think otherwise. I'm starting to figure that I may "lose" money donating to a charity but it gives a lot, lot less to the govt in order to buy guns or just speed up the process to mount up the debt so people will realize further what is going on. Even if it doesn't produce anything, the problems are going to be further up front and more pronounced.

 

A lot of people blame the baby boomers for what's going on. Thing is that it is not them.

[Dreamingawake]

They shouldn't. You said most people are stupid, I think otherwise. I'm starting to figure that I may "lose" money donating to a charity but it gives a lot, lot less to the govt in order to buy guns or just speed up the process to mount up the debt so people will realize further what is going on. Even if it doesn't produce anything, the problems are going to be further up front and more pronounced.

 

A lot of people blame the baby boomers for what's going on. Thing is that it is not them.

 

I wouldn't worry too much about 'giving' money to the government. All the money collected from taxes doesn't even cover the interest on the national debt. When the government needs money, it just borrows more from the federal reserve (created out of thin air) to be paid back by you.

 

They also don't need to buy guns since they already have more than they could ever need. They just need to disarm the populace to make law-abiding citizens vulnerable to criminals (they will, and do, break gun laws anyway) and government oppression.

 

Nothing against charities though, generosity ALWAYS comes back to you

[lino]

I wouldn't worry too much about 'giving' money to the government. All the money collected from taxes doesn't even cover the interest on the national debt. When the government needs money, it just borrows more from the federal reserve (created out of thin air) to be paid back by you.

 

They also don't need to buy guns since they already have more than they could ever need. They just need to disarm the populace to make law-abiding citizens vulnerable to criminals (they will, and do, break gun laws anyway) and government oppression.

 

Nothing against charities though, generosity ALWAYS comes back to you

 

I see "gun laws" differently. People have the "rights" that they can "buy" in a court and the "rights" that their "friends" afford to them.

[Sloppy Zhang]

While I know that this topic comes up from time to time, it still surprises me. It seems to me the most ungrounded and unreasonable, ignoring just simple basic facts of getting along in the world which everyone must face.

 

Consider even the most basic expenses for a meditation seminar, or on-going meditation class:

- advertise

- rent the hall

 

Where do you thing the $ comes from to put on such things? Do you think an enlightened teacher just materializes cash to pay for all of his or her expenses?

 

I dunno, browse around and you find pages like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi

 

Kanakdhara Siddhi: One can acquire immense and unlimited wealth through this Siddhi.

 

So.... why does an enlightened master need to charge....?

 

Edited December 28, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Dreamingawake]

I see "gun laws" differently. People have the "rights" that they can "buy" in a court and the "rights" that their "friends" afford to them.

 

Thats true, but I think we can say with certainty that any attempt to disarm or limit the offensive/defensive power of society at large is a thinly veiled attempt to keep them under thumb. People who can defend themselves are dangerous to criminals.

[Inedible]

I dunno, browse around and you find pages like this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhi

So.... why does an enlightened master need to charge....?

 

 

Possibly because, like with regular people, the enlightened ones don't all have the same abilities in equal measure?

[lino]

Thats true, but I think we can say with certainty that any attempt to disarm or limit the offensive/defensive power of society at large is a thinly veiled attempt to keep them under thumb. People who can defend themselves are dangerous to criminals.

 

I wonder if criminals see that they are being used as "tools". Also, after they turn "bad", they are kept in that role by society.

[Dreamingawake]

I wonder if criminals see that they are being used as "tools". Also, after they turn "bad", they are kept in that role by society.

 

Sociologists understand it and explain it in a pretty detailed manner even in intro level classes but I doubt that criminals 'see' much of anything, else I doubt they would be criminals

 

edit: grammar

Edited December 29, 2009 by Dreamingawake

[Sloppy Zhang]

Possibly because, like with regular people, the enlightened ones don't all have the same abilities in equal measure?

 

I dunno, you'd think anyone who has transcended the physical would, y'know, easily be able to see through the physical situation and act in such a way as to.... I dunno..... make it so that they have everything under control?

 

I mean, if you want to hold a seminar but don't have enough fish and bread, you could... multiply them.... or at least hire a catering service for that afternoon.

[Trunk]

Possibly because, like with regular people, the enlightened ones don't all have the same abilities in equal measure?

Correct.

 

I dunno, you'd think anyone who has transcended the physical would, y'know, easily be able to see through the physical situation and act in such a way as to.... I dunno..... make it so that they have everything under control?

Just because a person merges with deeper layers of reality (and there are lots of layers) doesn't mean that they are currently seeing/operating on the layer that solves the particular situation in front of them.

 

I know of an Enlightened Teacher, extremely advanced and amazing to meditate with, but who has trouble relating to students at the step that they are at. You ask a question about step 5 and get an answer about step 500,000. It's a problem in that school (and they're working to get better at it). But his ability to integrate with Light?: ah-MAZ-ing.

 

Just because a Teacher can integrate with Light does not mean that s/he is a good speller, nor necesarily says the optimal answer to any particular question, nor knows what your difficulty/problem is without you saying it, nor does it mean that s/he has a slim toned figure. There's a lot of mythology about what an enlightened teacher is...

[fiveelementtao]

I'm finding this thread to be extreme in some of it's posts. On the one hand you have those who want to separate teachers from human beings as though anyone under the category of teacher is Buddha or Ghandi or Jesus, as though the only teacher worthy of study is someone who has achieved the status of enlightened immortal.

 

It seems that some who are arguing for paying teachers are people who have teachers and are studying a recognized tradition or discipline. Some who seem to be arguing for not paying teachers are those with little training and no teacher.

 

If one does not have a teacher they are training with and requires that the only teacher they will learn from is someone who doesn't charge and is fully enlightened, that seems to set up a scenario where they never get a chance to train in Tao at all.

This sets up a scenario where one can spend their whole life never taking the risk to grow beyond their current state by saying, "I wanted to learn Tao, but I couldn't find an enlightened being who didn't require any sacrifice from me."

 

So, my feeling is that those who demand that their teacher be beyond human limitation and not require sacrifice from them as students, are really setting up a scenario where they do not ever learn. I am wondering if these people are really just afraid of the personal growth that they would encounter with a real flesh and blood teacher.

I don't think the issue is about money. I think it is about fear. Fear of growth. If you are studying a legitimate discipline, regardless of the limitations of the teacher, a teacher will force you to grow beyond your current state...

 

I'm still looking for the enlightened master to teach me. I haven;t found one yet. They have all been human on some level. Some more than others, but all very human.

What I have come to learn is that the human teacher is only a gateway to the immortals on the ethereal plane. If you find a real tradition, regardless of the limitations of the teacher, the immortals on the ethereal plane will teach you. The ancestors are your real teachers, you show your commitment to learning by respecting the imperfect human teachers they bring you.

That's been my experience anyway...

Blessings to all seekers... I encourage all to take the risk and train with a real teacher in a real tradition... May you find what you are looking for...