Is it OK to charge people money for instruction?

[goldisheavy]

It seems like this topic comes up from time to time. When is it OK to charge for instruction? Why is it that some teachers stay away from money, while others take it eagerly?

 

I think everyone has the right to decide this for themselves. To help people, I want to share what I think on this topic. It's pretty simple, and I believe you'll see that what I am saying is eminently reasonable.

 

 

It is OK to charge for teaching if:

 

1. You're teaching the person a profitable profession or trade.

2. Your teaching falls into an entertainment category.

3. Your teaching aims to support life in some way, such as healing, or survival and similar knowledge.

 

It is NOT OK to charge for teaching:

 

1. When you make any claims of or references to the sacred.

2. When you lay a claim to spirituality or transcendence of any kind.

 

Some things straddle these categories, but the more sacred something is, the less money you should charge for it. And this goes all the way to priceless. Obviously if you consider something priceless, putting a price of any kind, be it 1 billion dollars or 1 cent will be impossible without lying to oneself and without appearing as a hypocrite to others. If something is priceless, how is it I am putting a price on it? This should be obvious, especially to truly spiritual people. If something is priceless, it is not for sale, but it can be given freely or shared.

 

The simple principle to remember is this: if what you teach is within the realm of convention, if it is worldly and is part of the world, you can charge money for it. If what you teach is beyond the realm of convention, if it transcends this world, you may not charge money for it.

 

Let's go over some examples.

 

1. I am teaching welding: Yes I can charge money for this. Welding is a profitable profession. My students will make more money than I charge them.

 

2. I am teaching scuba diving: Yes I can charge money for this. This is entertainment.

 

3. I am teaching general or basic philosophy: Yes, I can charge money for this. Philosophy is both entertaining and a life supporting practice. It's life supporting in that it helps you think clearly, and it helps to avoid being tricked by con men who rely on logical fallacies and so forth.

 

4. I am teaching mathematics: Yes, I can charge money for this. This is a general life supporting skill. At higher levels it can be an essential knowledge for some profitable professions.

 

5. I am teaching qigong and I only claim health or martial arts benefits: Yes, I can charge money for this. Health and healing are life supporting. Self-defense is another life supporting endeavor.

 

6. I am teaching lucid dreaming and my promotion stresses the fun aspect: Yes, I can charge money for this. This is for entertainment.

 

7. I am teaching the history of shamanism with the use of shamanic source material: Yes, I can charge money for this, since I am only presenting it as history. General liberal arts education is a life supporting activity. It enriches our life at a mundane level.

 

8. I am teaching bird watching: Yes, I can charge for this. Entertainment.

 

---------

 

Now for some negative examples.

 

9. I am teaching qigong and I make claims of enlightenment and spiritual development: No, I may not charge money for this. I make claims to something that transcends convention and worldliness.

 

10. I am teaching lucid dreaming as "dream yoga": No, I may not charge for this. I am making a claim to something that transcends convention and worldliness.

 

11. I am teaching shamanism, not as history, but as a way of life: No, I may not charge for this. Transcendent.

 

12. I am teaching Tibetan Buddhism: No, I may not charge for this. Transcendent.

 

---------

 

If you don't charge for something, that doesn't mean you cannot ask for donations. Asking for donations is OK if you don't make the person feel guilty for not giving. Christians break this rule by passing a collection basket around -- this is not OK, because it psychologically pushes people to donate. Setting up an inconspicuous or a modestly conspicuous donation box at the entrance is OK though.

 

It all boils down to this: what kind of relationship are you looking to enter into? Are you entering into a sacred relationship, or into a mundane one?

 

If you want to enter into a sacred or a transcendent relationship, you cannot charge money or barter. This is one of the reasons why you should never charge your children anything, because the relationship within the family is a sacred one. So a father should not charge his son for helping him with math homework and the son should not charge the father for mowing the lawn. The father may give his son an allowance in a way that makes it obvious it's not a payment for services of any kind. Introducing business dealing into family relations breaks the sacredness of those relations.

 

If you are looking to enter into a mundane/worldly relationship, it's perfectly OK to charge money.

 

There are some people who simply don't think there is anything sacred -- avoid these people.

 

There are also some people who say everything is sacred -- avoid these people as well, because to say that everything is sacred is the same as saying nothing is.

 

It's OK to say that what we consider sacred and mundane are non-dual, like light and dark are non-dual. It's also OK to challenge the notions of sacredness and mundanity. But it's not OK to say that dark is light or that anything mundane is sacred. There is a subtle but important difference there.

 

So, as a consumer, if you want to receive worldly instruction for a worldly purpose within the framework of a mundane relationship, go ahead and pay that money. But if you want to receive any kind of spiritual instruction with elements of renunciation or transcendence, with the aim of liberation, enlightenment or a mystical union, within the framework of a sacred relationship, do not pay anything. But you may want to donate something to a good teacher, or to give the teacher food or other life supporting items, or to put up the teacher in your home. And if you're very poor, then don't worry about donations and wait until your fortune improves first.

Edited December 23, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Aspirin]

--

Edited June 24, 2016 by Aspirin

[goldisheavy]

No need to discuss

 

I strongly disagree. While everyone should make up one's own mind, we should also discuss this as well.

Edited December 23, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Aspirin]

--

Edited June 24, 2016 by Aspirin

[C T]

sorry triple post! congested internet traffic!!

Edited December 23, 2009 by CowTao

[lino]

I also strongly disagree (with you)!

 

Hm...I can see a pattern in these discussions on Taobums developing here...

 

Hmmmmm

 

Maybe it would be better to leave this person alone.

[C T]

Excellent points to ponder - thanks GiH!

 

here's a mother's reply to her son who wanted to 'charge' her for getting a

good report card and for mowing the lawn.. dedicated to all mothers, and to

the joy of giving:

 

 

Peace to all.

Edited December 23, 2009 by CowTao

[宁]

Here's something I think you overlooked:

 

- not paying means no implication

- no implication means no responsability

- no responsability = everyone can do whatever the heck they want, however the heck they want

- that is not learning, therefore, of course no one needs to pay for that

 

Not paying = No responsability

 

It seems to fit your patter on thinking like a suit: promoting iresponsability and imaturity...

You look like a teenager that has his first fight with his parents:

Everything you know, everything that formed your paradigm was once taught by teachers...

 

 

 

You don't have to promote iresponsability, they are already promoted by everyone else...

 

 

PS: For the record, if I will ever get to the level of having something worth teaching, I would not charge a dime...

 

 

 

Why?

 

 

Because paying is getting away easy...

 

... for the student!

[lino]

 

Why?

Because paying is getting away easy...

 

... for the student!

 

 

Mofo,

 

You just f-ed me up. But thank you for giving me that perspective.

[宁]

 

Mofo,

 

You just f-ed me up. But thank you for giving me that perspective.

 

 

Yes, because after the student pays, he can return home and just fuck it... back to the old habits.

But taking responsability for a student means karmic consequences, just like parenting.

That's why only strong masters have more than a couple of REAL students.

Jesus had only twelve...

[RobB]

Hi,

 

I've read somewhere that, in these cases, it is fine to charge for your time (however, you choose to value it) - charging for the healing/instruction etc is a different matter.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[C T]

I spent the best part of 30 years in the Far East studying under various Buddhist teachers.

None of them charged, yet the way to their schools and monasteries are paved with benefactors

waiting to donate to their cause. Why? Because there is sincerity, and altruism is felt to be

genuine.

 

In the west, its a different story altogether. I think people here are less giving, and more

skeptical, and they always say, 'see what you got first before i part with my hard-earned

money'. Thats normal. Different mentality. So those who profess to teach the ways towards

liberation (in the west) have the added pressure of having to 'show off' what they got. So its

a kind of cycle that gives rise to all kinds of 'mine's better than yours' syndrome, and in the

end, confusion reigns as a raging fire of petty differences envelops the whole spiritual

marketplace. How unfortunate.

[zazaza]

Great post goldisheavy.

There are already plenty of good and free teachings out there on how to realize the highest.

 

For example:

Mindfullness in plain english - by gunaratana

I am that - by nisargadatta

 

Physical exercises can probably help to ignite a little fire,

but without the right practice for the mind that little fire will not mature.

 

Many people who have not done any physical practices at all,

no yoga, no tai chi, no qi qong..

 

But still they have awakened all their mental, physical and spiritual energies to full capacity.

Why? Because the mind is the key to open the door to the highest realizations.

No physical practice can take one to the highest realization.

 

quotes

 

Too bad the bible has been corrupted so much it's become very dangerous to quote from it,

but i could not help myself. I believe that the teaching of Jesus, just like the teaching of many other holymen out there,

have been corrupted

 

Many people try to make other people believe they are holier than them,

and that we need their guidance... in return for their services,

they often want favors from us... money, sex.. our simply... our adoration!

 

Cut out the middle man, none are more enlightened than the light itself!

 

Your own self is your ultimate teacher (sadguru). The outer teacher (guru) is merely a milestone. It is only your inner teacher that will walk with you to the goal, for it is the goal. - Nisargadatta

 

 

More quotes

Below are some more quotes that contain the plain simple and free truth on how to

achieve enlightenment.

 

And so I tell you, keep on asking, and you will receive what you ask for. Keep on seeking, and you will find. Keep on knocking, and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives. Everyone who seeks, finds. And to everyone who knocks, the door will be opened. - Jesus

 

The kingdom of Heaven is within you... Seek ye first the kingdom of Heaven and all things will be added unto you. - Jesus

 

We are shaped by our thoughts; we become what we think. When the mind is pure, joy follows like a shadow that never leaves. - Buddha

 

We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts, we make the world. - Buddha

 

The idea of enlightenment is of utmost importance. Just to know that there is such possibility changes one's entire outlook. It acts like a burning match in a heap of saw dust. A spark of truth can burn up a mountain of lies. The very hearing of it is a promise of enlightenment. - Nisargadatta maharaj

 

Nothing you do will change you, for you need no change. You may change your mind or your body, but it is always something external to you that has changed, not yourself. Why bother at all to change? Realize once for all that neither your body nor your mind, nor even your consciousness is yourself and stand alone in your true nature beyond consciousness and unconsciousness. No effort can take you there, only the clarity of understanding. - Nisargadatta maharaj

 

The Self is near and the way to it is easy. All you need doing is doing nothing. - Nisargadatta maharaj

 

For those who practice not-doing, everything will fall into place. - Tao te ching

Edited December 23, 2009 by zazaza

[C T]

Yes, because after the student pays, he can return home and just fuck it... back to the old habits.

But taking responsability for a student means karmic consequences, just like parenting.

That's why only strong masters have more than a couple of REAL students.

Jesus had only twelve...

When a student seeks out a teacher, the onus is on the student to be respectful and act

responsibly towards the teachings, not the teacher. It is a kind of impersonal relationship,

and any failings cannot be attributed to the teacher. Hence teachers are exempted, or

should be regarded as such, from playing out the role of a parent. Those who choose to

imagine teachers disproportionately do so out of neuroses, and thus even before anything

is learnt, the ground for failure has already been tilled, and when nothing is gained, no

worthy crops yielded, the tendency is to blame the tools, or the tool-makers. How silly.

[emptyvessel]

Hello goldisheavy.

 

Philosophically I completely agree with your post. In an enlightened society such a system would work. It works already to some extent in the East, though there are still a lot of "gurus" who charge a lot of money for spiritual teachings. But, in the East, monks have been begging and lay people have been supporting them for centuries. It is part of the culture there. I wish it was so here as well.

 

However, here in West, certainly in the States, there is no spiritual cultural history that supports such ideals. We have instead grown into a culture that idolizes money. People who have an "angle" market grandiose claims of enlightenment and transcendence to the masses for crazy sums of money. This has made folks even more skeptical. But even the genuine spiritual teachers still have to support themselves somehow, and the local community is unlikely to pick up the teacher's tab.

 

I don't mind supporting my teachers with reasonable sums. The folks that charge unreasonable sums for instant enlightenment systems using every internet marketing scheme in the book won't get a dime from me.

 

I would certainly like to see our culture moving toward your ideals. And maybe it is, however slowly.

 

~Kyle

[SeriesOfTubes]

I think that's definitely reasonable how you state it and would tend to agree. Though I think people only value what they put time, money, or effort into and there are probably instances where charging money puts (some) people in an optimum mindset to get their money's worth out of what they're learning.

 

there was an experiment done that showed how perceived value influences the placebo effect.... eighty five percent of participants who read a brochure describing a pill as a "newly approved painkiller" for $2.50 experienced a reduction in pain, while only 61 percent of the participants who read a brochure describing the pill as "marked down to ten cents" experienced relief.

 

that being said, I participate with a traditional Dakota altar and have attended several hundred sweat lodge ceremonies free of charge, and it's true that anyone who charges money for native american spirituality is regarded as fraud, no debating it. At least charging $ for things like sweats or vision quest etc would never fly on a reservation.

 

However most of those who participate in ceremony at least try to give what they can back in energy, effort, and labor, working the kitchens or doing the fires, chopping wood, miscellaneous tasks and labor when the vision quest, sun dance, and other ceremonies are going on, making oneself useful for years before you really start to learn things, so I think it would be an oversimplification to say that all things are just freely given.

[Inedible]

When I pay, it seems to me that the teacher should do the work for me. It just seems to fit more into the category of receiving some kind of treatment. The more I have to actually do the work myself, the less willing I tend to be to hand over money for it. There are just too many things I've paid for and left sitting around. They didn't do anything for me. When I consider paying for something new I stop and ask myself if I already have something along the same lines and if the answer is yes then I do not buy. Actually, lack of knowledge rarely seems to be a problem. As far as I can see most people know what is wrong with their lives and what they have to do to make things better - they just don't do it. I don't do it. The thing is, most days my life just doesn't feel like it is worth the effort to fix. If I am going to pay someone, I want results I can see.

[ram]

have i understood you badly?I do feel the whole world and everything in it to be sacred.I have never charged for any teaching so that fits your belief.

[Vajrasattva]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with charging folks for your time or a service regardless of what that service is.

 

When money goes around you can do good things with it. For example help others in need etc.

 

The ones that have "issues" with charging money or Paying money for some ones time, efforts & Service simply have money issues to begin with & blockages in their Base Chakra "Muladhara".

 

Plenty is given for free when you are with a real teacher but at the same time taking care of those that spend their time helping you in some way or another either in service, Barter, Donation or Monetary exchange is a good thing.

Also when you are given something its a KARMIC exchange when something is given back immediately for example in exchange for $ or whatever the "medium" may be.

 

 

Peace & Happy Holidays

 

Santiago

Edited December 23, 2009 by Vajrasattva

[fiveelementtao]

It's OK to charge.. It's OK to NOT charge. It's OK to pay. It's OK to NOT pay. If you have a personal issue about paying for something that is labeled as sacred, then don't pay. Problem solved. There is plenty of free stuff out there. If you don't have an issue with labels and you want to pay for something you think is valuable, then pay. If you only want to pay for something through donation, then do that. It is a free universe, you can do or not do whatever you want.

 

I myself have paid for spiritual teachings in the past and I would gladly do it again if I felt the teaching were valuable to me. I charge for my teachings because I want to make sure that I only spend time and effort teaching people who are committed to practicing what I teach. Money insures that. If they do not value what I am offering, they won't pay. If they won't pay, they won't practice the art when it becomes emotionally, physically or spiritually challenging. My goal is to make sure that the teachings survive. I do not want to waste time investing my time and effort into someone if they aren't going to practice the art. So, I charge not only to compensate me for my time and effort, but to insure that I only teach those who will in turn be able to keep the tradition alive for future generations. No amount of money can pay for the teachings, they are beyond price. But, my time and experience has value. To not recognize that is selfish on my part...If anyone decides to become a teacher, they will understand what I am saying.

 

If someone comes to me with a spirit of self entitlement, I charge them triple and teach them less. If someone comes to me with a real desire to learn and proves it, I will bend over backwards to teach them and insure that they are able to learn within their means...

Edited December 23, 2009 by fiveelementtao

[Aetherous]

9. I am teaching qigong and I make claims of enlightenment and spiritual development: No, I may not charge money for this. I make claims to something that transcends convention and worldliness.

 

I agree with this.

 

However, when someone teaches (lets say for instance) "qigong for enlightenment", they aren't necessarily charging for enlightenment, which is priceless. They are charging for their time and effort in conveying the practice. This is something worldly. If there's not some sort of sacred relationship between the student and the teacher, then there should be a cost. If the teacher is acting as a personal guide, then the relationship is sacred, and the only cost should be the student's devotion to the teaching.

 

This is my opinion.

[宁]

I agree with this.

 

However, when someone teaches (lets say for instance) "qigong for enlightenment", they aren't necessarily charging for enlightenment, which is priceless. They are charging for their time and effort in conveying the practice. This is something worldly. If there's not some sort of sacred relationship between the student and the teacher, then there should be a cost. If the teacher is acting as a personal guide, then the relationship is sacred, and the only cost should be the student's devotion to the teaching.

 

This is my opinion.

 

 

Of course. Only a person without a job and everyday responsabilities would think otherwise.

[Dainin]

In my opinion, any of the activities on Gold's list could be done in a sacred or transcendent manner, not just items 9-12. Probably any action learned can be sacred. It depends on how the learner expresses the teachings in his or her life. Learning is an exchange, not just knowledge being poured into an empty vessel.

 

If no one is being forced or coerced to pay, I don't think there is anything wrong with charging. A student should carefully consider why they want to learn a particular activity in the first place. Some people see a video of a person lighting a piece of paper on fire or knocking over a bowling pin with their "qi power" and then pay $10,000 to learn these "skills". It seems somehow appropriate to me, and I think Grandmaster Phineas T. Barnum would agree.

[ShaktiMama]

Here's something I think you overlooked:

 

- not paying means no implication

- no implication means no responsability

- no responsability = everyone can do whatever the heck they want, however the heck they want

- that is not learning, therefore, of course no one needs to pay for that

 

Not paying = No responsability

 

It seems to fit your patter on thinking like a suit: promoting iresponsability and imaturity...

You look like a teenager that has his first fight with his parents:

Everything you know, everything that formed your paradigm was once taught by teachers...

You don't have to promote iresponsability, they are already promoted by everyone else...

PS: For the record, if I will ever get to the level of having something worth teaching, I would not charge a dime...

Why?

Because paying is getting away easy...

 

... for the student!

 

you funny... Being intentionally contentious is interesting.

 

i have taught people for nothing and i have taught people for a a low price and I have taught for a high price. the people who paid the high price seemed to retain and appreciate the value of what is learned more...

 

over and over again in my 10+ years of teaching spiritual development...those who come in on a scholarship, charity of the teacher, or sponsored by a graduate...generally can't cut it. (and why are we surprised when they cant even pay their rent or child support). Referencing Maslow's Hierarchy of needs...when physiological and security needs are not met it is difficult if not impossible to work on self actualization and transcendence needs.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy

 

The ones who make the best students are the one who have their self esteem needs met. It is a little more difficult to work with those who are working on getting their love and belonging needs met but they make good students too.

 

Those working on physiological and security needs make poor if not awful students. The human organism's energy is being too much diverted to meeting those needs and all else is a distraction. That's ok. just come when the energy is not being devoted to living day to day.

 

There are exceptions to this rule am I am sure there will be more than a few who will point that out to me after i post this thinking that I am not aware of that and need instruction.

 

 

As much as these kind of students might deny...they are a a product of their culture and on a subconscious level people do not value something for nothing. They tend to be so dysfunctional and damaged they suck up and on a lot of the teacher's energy and time. They whine and complain and monopolize the teacher. Then they try to justify why it is important that they must be paid attention to because it is the teacher's fault when they don't make progress while the majority of the class does. So much feelings of entitlement out there. There are exceptions of course but they are rare rather than the rule. As a teacher, I haven't given up on those who want to be the exception.

 

I am sometimes so tempted to take on just one student...but I am too attached to helping making a difference in the quality of life on this planet...so I take groups of all kinds.

 

I consider it as charging as a hazardous duty fee for my time. As well as my almost twenty years of learning, education and experience.

[Inedible]

Those working on physiological and security needs make poor if not awful students. The human organism's energy is being too much diverted to meeting those needs and all else is a distraction. That's ok. just come when the energy is not being devoted to living day to day.

 

Is it so wrong to help a person get these needs met first and then work up the hierarchy to the spiritual needs, instead of waiting for them to get there without help?