Is it OK to charge people money for instruction?

[Sloppy Zhang]

I'm finding this thread to be extreme in some of it's posts. On the one hand you have those who want to separate teachers from human beings as though anyone under the category of teacher is Buddha or Ghandi or Jesus, as though the only teacher worthy of study is someone who has achieved the status of enlightened immortal.

 

It seems that some who are arguing for paying teachers are people who have teachers and are studying a recognized tradition or discipline. Some who seem to be arguing for not paying teachers are those with little training and no teacher.

 

If one does not have a teacher they are training with and requires that the only teacher they will learn from is someone who doesn't charge and is fully enlightened, that seems to set up a scenario where they never get a chance to train in Tao at all.

This sets up a scenario where one can spend their whole life never taking the risk to grow beyond their current state by saying, "I wanted to learn Tao, but I couldn't find an enlightened being who didn't require any sacrifice from me."

 

So, my feeling is that those who demand that their teacher be beyond human limitation and not require sacrifice from them as students, are really setting up a scenario where they do not ever learn. I am wondering if these people are really just afraid of the personal growth that they would encounter with a real flesh and blood teacher.

I don't think the issue is about money. I think it is about fear. Fear of growth. If you are studying a legitimate discipline, regardless of the limitations of the teacher, a teacher will force you to grow beyond your current state...

 

I'm still looking for the enlightened master to teach me. I haven;t found one yet. They have all been human on some level. Some more than others, but all very human.

What I have come to learn is that the human teacher is only a gateway to the immortals on the ethereal plane. If you find a real tradition, regardless of the limitations of the teacher, the immortals on the ethereal plane will teach you. The ancestors are your real teachers, you show your commitment to learning by respecting the imperfect human teachers they bring you.

That's been my experience anyway...

Blessings to all seekers... I encourage all to take the risk and train with a real teacher in a real tradition... May you find what you are looking for...

 

Well one thing to point out- for every situation, it depends. Really. A lot of posts seem extreme in this thread because there are all kinds of people out there who have had all kinds of experiences with all kinds of teachers. All of our posts reflect our own experiences, and taking any one post out of context is going to seem like, "well what are you talking about?"

 

Anyway...

 

The thing I personally was getting at is people need to stop putting on airs.

 

I have not met any enlightened master. The only people I have encountered are plain humans, who have good stuff to teach, and who I am more than willing to learn from, even if I have to pay.

 

Now there are some situations in which I am not getting what I paid for, and now, this isn't some selfish thing or fantasy I set myself up to fail in. I keep forking over the cash, and keep getting met by excuses or poor instruction. And when confronted about this, teachers in question stammer out some excuse- err, reason, for why it's my fault.

 

Other situations in which I don't really like paying is when a teacher is obviously not what they are saying themselves to be. Some people really DO go around saying, "I have become enlightened" or "I can transcend" the physical world. When people make claims like that, I expect them to prove it! They should walk the walk. If they run out of fish, they should be able to make more. If they come up a few hundred bucks short to rent a hall for an afternoon seminar, I think they should be able to be "in tune with the Tao" and it will all work out.

 

But again, there are plenty of honest people teaching honestly and being honest about their own accomplishments, or lack thereof. They aren't saying anything about anything they can do, and they are completely upfront about what they require from you and why. Will their system lead me to enlightened beings on the astral plane? Maybe, that's something I have to find out for myself, and that's something that they fully admit, that they aren't in the business of proving it to anybody, they are only giving you the keys.

 

Other people go on long tangents about how great they are and about how they can commune with spirits at any time to tell them anything, and if you pay you can see those spirits too, and then you pay, and then they don't show you any spirits, and you don't get anything they said you would get, and then..... well you get the idea.

 

And speaking of tangent, this post is long enough

 

[edit] I'd also like to point out how hard it is to find a "genuine" system. Everyone says their system is "genuine". It takes a LOT of effort and time and research to find out who is legit and who is just saying that they are legit. There are some VERY good fakes out there. In some instances, those fakes are actually using legitimate information, just slightly skewed, so they may still help you grow. In other instances, they can really hurt.

 

Anyway, once you've found a legitimate avenue of instruction, I don't think anyone feels any qualms about making a sacrifice. The real issue comes in making sure you are making a sacrifice to the right person. Many people have made serious commitments to people, organizations, or traditions that do not hold their end of the bargain.

 

Not everyone has the luxury of having a legitimate instructor to learn from, so I think the issue is a lot more complicated than just "fear of growth" or "fear of making sacrifice".

Edited December 29, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[fiveelementtao]

Hi Sloppy,

You make some very good points with which I wholeheartedly agree. I did not mean to implicate that all posts were extreme. I only said some posts...

I am in complete agreement with you and my experience reflects yours. I have never met any completely enlightened master. All those that have claimed total enlightenment were either frauds or self-deluded and every one of them was destructive to others. That doesn't mean that their systems or tradition wasn't legitimate.

 

I have had to learn that it is unproductive for me to even expect perfection from a teacher. If a teacher claims to be able to transcend reality, I agree that they should be put to the test. But for me, based on my experience, a real master will never claim to be one. Or if they do claim mastery, they will be sure to quantify their status by freely admitting that their mastery is only relative to those who have trained less than they have and they will freely admit they are still learning and still an imperfect human being. IME anyone who claims otherwise is a fraud or deluded.

 

I have also had to learn that energy powers are not a sign of enlightenment or ultimate mastery. I have trained with masters whose energy skills were legendary, but their emotional and psychic maturity was definitely lacking.

 

So, even though I believe there have been fully enlightened masters on this earth and there very well may still be, I am of the belief that they will stay hidden. I have also found that it is possible to learn from ethereal masters while also learning from a human source. I have found that if I keep this perspective, I will know whom I am meant to learn from and with whom I do not need to study.

But to expect to find a perfect master, IMO and IME is unreasonable and hinders my growth...

As a teacher, I often run into students who want to deify me. I have decided that if I see this trait in a student, I may consider terminating their training, because, even though I make every effort to explain to them, I am only a human, they will still want to project their fantasy onto me. This makes it very difficult to teach them because at some point I will dissapoint them and then the real teaching begins. Because, at that point, the student will have to make a decision as to what is more important: Their desire to be saved or their commitment to the discipline. When the student decides that the art is more important than I am, then I can really start teaching them, because their focus will be to learn the art and not on me...

[lino]

Possibly because, like with regular people, the enlightened ones don't all have the same abilities in equal measure?

 

Okay

 

Even if not enlightened, awakened, realized, or stream-winner

 

A serious cultivator that is far enough done the line could probably read a 500-600 page book in 15-30 minutes and turn the pages in his or her visualizations afterwards. Also, think through detailed reasoning in maybe 1/10th the time or less than the average person.

[deci belle]

[lino]