Dualism

[glooper23]

Hi. I am new and have many questions about Taoism. For this topic, I'm interested in issues surrounding dualism. I've watched several videos and read some articles about it, but I am still confused. So, there are two sides to every coin. There is a good and a bad for every situation. Does this mean:

 

1. When I help someone, I'm hurting them?

2. When I read a book, I'm not reading it?

3. When I study for class, I'm not studying?

4. When I make a new friend, I'm making an enemy?

 

I'm confused about the practicality of erasing dualism. Also, a video I watched began to discuss the implications surrounding the removal of good and bad. That is, if I stop looking at things as good and bad, how will I know how to act? The video, however, did not do a good job of explaining how to correct for this. How am I to know when I'm doing something good or bad?

 

Is it wrong to want to be happy? For if I want to be happy, don't I want to be sad? By thinking positive thoughts, am I not ignoring the negative side?

 

Some advice / opinions would be great. Thanks.

[Marblehead]

Hi Glooper23,

 

Good questions. You actually presented three distinct Taoist concepts in your post: Daulity, Beyond good and evil, and Happiness.

 

I will speak to only Dualism.

 

First I will say that it is my opinion that we can never completely avoid dualism because our brain and senses work dualistically. However, I believe that we can live much of our life beyond the concepts of dualistic thinking if we try hard at doing it.

 

The example I like to use is the rose. We can admire the beauty of the flower without grabbing the stem and pricking our hand with the thorn.

 

1. When I help someone, I'm hurting them?

 

Absolutely not, IMO. Sure, you are changing the natural order of things. But this is not bad in and of itself. If you help them you have likely done something to make their life better. I cannot see where this would be hurting them in any way. You have only changed the natural order of things which was viewed by yourself and the person you helped as a negative.

 

2. When I read a book, I'm not reading it?

 

This is not logical thinking and Taoist Philosophy teaches that we are to think logically. If we loose ignorance through reading in order to gain awaeness it can be considered a positive.

 

3. When I study for class, I'm not studying?

 

Again, logic rules. If you study you are studying, if you do not study you are not studying. If you do not study for a class it is likely that you will not get a passing grade for that class. That would be viewed as a negative.

 

4. When I make a new friend, I'm making an enemy?

 

Ha! Now this is a horse of a different color. The old saying: familiarity breeds contempt. So I suggest that this is dependant on who the person is with whom you form a friendship. It may be true that by becoming a particular person's friend you have taken the first step towards making an enemy for yourself.

 

Daulism is not a fixed concept. Even the Tai Chi symbol is not fixed because there is white in the black and black in the white. Many people even suggest that the symbol itself is not truely representative of reality because life is almost completely shades of grey instead of black and white.

 

So. Even though our senses and brain function mostly in dualistic processes we have the option of interpreting these input in any manner we choose. If we want to see only black and white that is what we will see. But if we remain flexible we can view things more or completely in shades of grey.

 

Peace & Love!

[glooper23]

Thank you for the thorough reply. My initial reaction is that I ought not take what I read and see to necessarily be 100% accurate. Symbols, writings, and experiences are man-made and thus, fallible.

 

Perhaps I should take what I sense and decide for myself what I believe to be real.

[glooper23]

Duplicate

Edited December 26, 2009 by glooper23

[C T]

Hello Glooper welcome to The Bums' Crib! May your time here be fruitful!

 

Duality.. Hmm..

 

Consider this: Actually it is more of a triality, shocking though as it may sound!

 

Lets assume you begin looking at the moon - and you start an intellectual conversation with yourself about the experience. Then what transpires is that you have the moon, there's you, and the thought process. It actually feels as if there are 3 distinct things happening at once. But if you simply observe the moon without any attempts to intellectualize the experience, you will see and feel that what remains is only the seeing, and at that juncture, having dropped the thoughts, the moon and the observer becomes inseparable, like the illusion of separation having been disbanded by the removal of said intellectual involvement.

 

The same analogy can be applied to all other situations you may come across that presents themselves as if

there is you the subject, and that which seems outside of you, as object, and the thought process that creates

this sense of separation. Very often, when the thoughts subside, either by will, or by incidence, this sense of

separation dissolves like mist in the morning sun.

 

Duality simply means two, and this two does not necessarily have to be in the context of opposites, like the

examples you have cited. Take reading, one of the points you raised. Duality in this case means there is you,

the reader, and there is the book, and there is the thought that you are reading the book. So the distinction

arises that the book is somehow outside yourself. But this only happens when you begin to focus on the

object of the book as a separate entity. But when you lose that focus, say when you are concentrating on the

contents, reading intently, do you still see the book as an object at that point? You dont. What happens then?

Pick up a book now and try this out for yourself, and reflect on the experience. You may arrive at a clearer

understanding of non-duality then.

 

Not sure if you are familiar with the works of a contemporary thinker called Ken Wilber. He has some very

good insights on this matter. I'd like to end by including one of his observations here for you consideration:

 

"But, we ask, what will happen to our drive for progress if we see all opposites are one?

Well, with any luck, it will stop -- and with that peculiar discontent that thrives on the

illusion that the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. But we should be

clear about this. I do not mean that we will cease to make advancements of a sort in

medicine, agriculture, and technology. We will only cease to harbor the illusion that

our happiness depends on that. For when we see through the illusions of our boundaries,

we will see, here and now, the universe as Adam saw it before the Fall: an organic unity,

a harmony of opposites, a melody of positive and negative, delight with the play of our

vibratory existence. When the opposites are realized to be one, discord melts into accord,

battles become dances, and old enemies become lovers. We are then in a position to make

friends with all of our universe, and not just one half of it."

 

All the best to you on your path!

[glooper23]

Thanks, CowTao. I suppose I'm missing the practicality of the concept. I'm currently reading with my computer, so we can consider it to be the "book." I consider it to be separate from me... is this wrong? What exactly is the point in discussing the duality other than exchanging opinions about something? Is the point that we should erase duality from our minds and focus on everything being one? If so, how does that pertain to me and the computer?

 

Should I see my ex girlfriend as something I both loved and hated? Should I look at a broken leg as both hurting and helping me?

 

I guess I don't understand how to utilize this knowledge.

[3bob]

Hello Glooper,

 

Almost countless volumes of material have been written by almost countless numbers of people on the subjects of dualism and non-dualism (along with their variations related to same).

 

Hearing that doesn't help you any does it? The same could be said about the number of writings related to love. Ideas and concepts may be useful but until we have or unfold understanding deep down inside those ideas and concepts may not relate much to what we are going through...

 

A reading suggestion. I think that Alan Watts (from the 60's) does a fine job of helping explain many of the Taoist and Buddhist concepts or teachings in ways that many of us westerners can at least get a feel for. His books are still available and much of his material can be found on the internet.

 

A lot of the reading materials out there can and will blow your mind... but remember to keep a foundation of general goodnes and a non-violent mindedness for such is in harmony with the supporting spirit!

 

Best wishes, Bob

[glooper23]

Thanks, Bob. I will start reading more from Alan Watts.

[Iyoiyo]

The way I understand things duality is not ever strictly duality. What I mean by this is that there are many sides to everything, far more than two. This does not mean I dislike duality though, or disagree with the concepts, they're just not meant to be interpreted literally. Duality does not exist to reinforce separate categories, but rather to highlight the fact that everything is one. Perhaps you can think of it like this and work towards more abstract ideas by yourself-- without identifying one direction, there can be no direction at all. Without negative numbers there are no positive numbers. But, in the end, they are all just different places on the same scale, and not really different things at all, they're all just numbers.

[glooper23]

The way I understand things duality is not ever strictly duality. What I mean by this is that there are many sides to everything, far more than two. This does not mean I dislike duality though, or disagree with the concepts, they're just not meant to be interpreted literally. Duality does not exist to reinforce separate categories, but rather to highlight the fact that everything is one. Perhaps you can think of it like this and work towards more abstract ideas by yourself-- without identifying one direction, there can be no direction at all. Without negative numbers there are no positive numbers. But, in the end, they are all just different places on the same scale, and not really different things at all, they're all just numbers.

 

I'm understanding your words, but I'm still struggling to see the practicality for me. I think it requires that I sincerely figure out what my problem is. Right now, I'm struggling to decide on how to live my life. I'm making many sacrifices that seem to conflict with my past. Now, I don't really know how to communicate with people because I seemingly contradict the majority. So, duality comes up when I decide that someone is living their life the wrong way. I think in this fashion as a way to figure out how I want to live my life. If I don't know what I disapprove of, how can I know what I do approve of? At the same time, I feel guilty thinking this way because feels like I'm judging that person. I feel guilty now whenever I look at someone and decide I don't like it. When my father drinks and watches TV all day, I decide that I do not want to be like that. The idea of labeling his actions as mundane or unfulfilling seems like a judgment that makes me no better.

 

So then I wonder if there is no preferrable way for me to live. Perhaps I should accept the goods and the bads and just let things be. But then I worry that I will end up making a rash, foolish decision. Perhaps I will drop out of grad school because I "let go and let God." And then I will look back and realize I was merely thinking foolishly instead of actually following my "true self."

[soaring crane]

Does this mean:

1. When I help someone, I'm hurting them?

2. When I read a book, I'm not reading it?

3. When I study for class, I'm not studying?

4. When I make a new friend, I'm making an enemy?

 

Hi GLooper - no, those are examples of extremes, simple opposites. You've concentrated on and identified the narrowest pinpoints of the north and south poles, stuck little flags in them, but forgot about the entire vibrant, living planet between them. You're describing the tiny, fleeting moment between the exhale and the inhale, while forgetting to breath. Start small, learn to breath, learn Qigong. Take your time and enjoy the journey

[glooper23]

Hi GLooper - no, those are examples of extremes, simple opposites. You've concentrated on and identified the narrowest pinpoints of the north and south poles, stuck little flags in them, but forgot about the entire vibrant, living planet between them. You're describing the tiny, fleeting moment between the exhale and the inhale, while forgetting to breath. Start small, learn to breath, learn Qigong. Take your time and enjoy the journey

 

I will look up Qigong. Thank you.

[voidisyinyang]

yeah glooper -- the masters thesis I wrote about qigong healing is called "sound-current nondualism" -- I posted the link before when you said you used music as a metaphor.

 

http://www.hiddenmysteries.org/themagazine...-justice1.shtml

 

Hi. I am new and have many questions about Taoism. For this topic, I'm interested in issues surrounding dualism. I've watched several videos and read some articles about it, but I am still confused. So, there are two sides to every coin. There is a good and a bad for every situation. Does this mean:

 

1. When I help someone, I'm hurting them?

2. When I read a book, I'm not reading it?

3. When I study for class, I'm not studying?

4. When I make a new friend, I'm making an enemy?

 

I'm confused about the practicality of erasing dualism. Also, a video I watched began to discuss the implications surrounding the removal of good and bad. That is, if I stop looking at things as good and bad, how will I know how to act? The video, however, did not do a good job of explaining how to correct for this. How am I to know when I'm doing something good or bad?

 

Is it wrong to want to be happy? For if I want to be happy, don't I want to be sad? By thinking positive thoughts, am I not ignoring the negative side?

 

Some advice / opinions would be great. Thanks.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Thank you for the thorough reply. My initial reaction is that I ought not take what I read and see to necessarily be 100% accurate. Symbols, writings, and experiences are man-made and thus, fallible.

 

Perhaps I should take what I sense and decide for myself what I believe to be real.

 

Totally agree with this statement.

[C T]

Thanks, CowTao. I suppose I'm missing the practicality of the concept. I'm currently reading with my computer, so we can consider it to be the "book." I consider it to be separate from me... is this wrong? What exactly is the point in discussing the duality other than exchanging opinions about something? Is the point that we should erase duality from our minds and focus on everything being one? If so, how does that pertain to me and the computer?

 

Should I see my ex girlfriend as something I both loved and hated? Should I look at a broken leg as both hurting and helping me?

 

I guess I don't understand how to utilize this knowledge.

The practicality is in the integration Glooper. That seems to be the key to wholeness, if you really think about it.

Assuming one is in the process of discovering what it is to imbibe one's being with spiritual meaning, then

the key would be integration, or else only the choice of fragmentation remains. I think if one were to dig deep

enough, at the very apex of integration, there is what is known as Union, or enjoining, meaning to be One. Does

this make any sense, from a 'spiritual path' point of view? On a mundane level, since you are a guitarist, to

understand how music is made, you could say that it 'happens' only when integration is engaged, so

the more refined the integration, the sweeter and more sublime the harmony.. correct?

 

Have a good day!

Edited December 27, 2009 by CowTao