Spiritual cults.

[ralis]

I know this is a touchy subject and I believe it is important to know if one is involved in one or not. Cults are about personality worship and I believe that one does not need to live in a community or close to the cult leader in order to be manipulated.

 

There is a lot of discussion on TTB about various teachers, practices and lineages. Are any of these cult like?

 

 

ralis

[Guest paul walter]

I know this is a touchy subject and I believe it is important to know if one is involved in one or not. Cults are about personality worship and I believe that one does not need to live in a community or close to the cult leader in order to be manipulated.

 

There is a lot of discussion on TTB about various teachers, practices and lineages. Are any of these cult like?

ralis

 

 

The entire culture is cult-like in its structure: family, school, church, spiritual, social system, political parties. I think people need to ask whether they are the individuals they think they are before focusing on the other half of the equation. It's too easy (and considerably more comfortable) to point to small examples of negative cult behaviour in order to take the heat off of the macro-cults ( and micro ones-our ego selves!). For example the largest example of cult hysteria I've 'witnessed' lately was the Obama election and it's ongoing aftermath: he is now officially a secular saint(Nobel Prize) and everyone is too embaressed to admit he is naked so the support is still there, with everyone playing their zombie-like roles of tacit support lest the ego is confronted with the truth of its reactionary behaiour. And when he finally has used up all his chances to prove our 'choice' of candidate right, we will disown him because of his bad behaviour and bitch about how he has let us down! We are all our own cults (of personality) and the social system plays on the need for the ego to hide in a system that mirrors/hides that fact, thus replicating 'itself' and ourselves. I'm almost at the stage in my life where I think outright cult behaviour is far less damaging than those cults that are officially sanctioned since there is probably more chance of escaping the intensity of indoctrination and of learning valuable lessons from it in the long term than escaping the 'mundanity of evil' found in socially sanctioned systems.

 

Also the amount of involvement/interaction between what we call governments and cults tells us something about the value cults have for social control......anyway...it could go on forever this mirroring of society/self/cult. I think it all starts by the individual letting their guard down and giving up their self-regulation through confusion/lethargy etc and that probably comes from the immensity of 'choices'/confusion our democracies throw at us. Paul

[NeiChuan]

Well personally.. Cults, and Scam artists (In the spiritual sense) are the worst kind in my opinion.

 

I'll keep it short.

 

For one they make out what is most natural to people as mysterious and even put a price on it. (When they know nothing themselves).

 

For Cults it just destroys credibility.. Even for some certainty.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Would being into Occult/Esoterics make you a follower of an cult?

[Sundragon]

Would being into Occult/Esoterics make you a follower of an cult?

 

No because I am not a cultist.

 

A cult is rooted in the strength of personality of one teacher/prophet/demagogue/master. The cult filters information to its devotees so that they are effectively dependant upon the cult for spiritual sustanence. The cult exists to serve its leader(s) and not the needs of the followers.

 

There are meditation cults, Christian cults, Qigong cults, Qabalistic cults, etc. If there is a spiritual path there is a cult available for those seeking such a thing. What is and what is not a cult has a subjective element as well. Groups in power will often call other sects "cults" simply to discredit them. Look how the Chinese gov't labeled practitioners of Falun Gong cultists. Labeling them as such granted them the right (in their twisted little minds)to persecute, imprison, torture and murder these "cultists."

 

On the term occult. That is about the most subjective term on the planet. A great deal of what is discussed here..chi, siddhis, meditation, OBE's, magick, yogic practices, meditation, the Self, chakras, nadis, etc. is absolutely considered occult by mainstream Western/Middle Eastern religions. You don't have to be wearing a robe, casting a circle and wearing a pentagram to be involved in the "occult." Anything that allows the individual to be empowered at the expense of the professed dogma is a threat and is therefore "occult."

 

Meditation was "occult" in the Western world until relatively recently. Now its everywhere. The word occult simply means secret.

 

Esotericism is simply the study and practice of seeking the deep meanings buried beneath the superficial presentation of a religion or philosophy. These is esoteric Christianity (gnostic and esoteric Christianity specifically), esoteric Judaism (Kabbalah or Qabalah..though there are signifigant differences), esoteric Islam (Sufism), etc.

 

It is in seeking of the esoteric and the occult within a religion or philosophy that one may learn the deep, dogma transcending and liberating truths hidden in the spiritually dead husks of organized religion.

 

 

Love and Peace,

 

Sundragon

Edited December 28, 2009 by Sundragon

[DalTheJigsaw123]

The entire culture is cult-like in its structure: family, school, church, spiritual, social system, political parties. I think people need to ask whether they are the individuals they think they are before focusing on the other half of the equation. It's too easy (and considerably more comfortable) to point to small examples of negative cult behaviour in order to take the heat off of the macro-cults ( and micro ones-our ego selves!). For example the largest example of cult hysteria I've 'witnessed' lately was the Obama election and it's ongoing aftermath: he is now officially a secular saint(Nobel Prize) and everyone is too embaressed to admit he is naked so the support is still there, with everyone playing their zombie-like roles of tacit support lest the ego is confronted with the truth of its reactionary behaiour. And when he finally has used up all his chances to prove our 'choice' of candidate right, we will disown him because of his bad behaviour and bitch about how he has let us down! We are all our own cults (of personality) and the social system plays on the need for the ego to hide in a system that mirrors/hides that fact, thus replicating 'itself' and ourselves. I'm almost at the stage in my life where I think outright cult behaviour is far less damaging than those cults that are officially sanctioned since there is probably more chance of escaping the intensity of indoctrination and of learning valuable lessons from it in the long term than escaping the 'mundanity of evil' found in socially sanctioned systems.

 

Also the amount of involvement/interaction between what we call governments and cults tells us something about the value cults have for social control......anyway...it could go on forever this mirroring of society/self/cult. I think it all starts by the individual letting their guard down and giving up their self-regulation through confusion/lethargy etc and that probably comes from the immensity of 'choices'/confusion our democracies throw at us. Paul

 

This is great! Thanks!

 

No because I am not a cultist.

 

A cult is rooted in the strength of personality of one teacher/prophet/demagogue/master. The cult filters information to its devotees so that they are effectively dependant upon the cult for spiritual sustanence. The cult exists to serve its leader(s) and not the needs of the followers.

 

There are meditation cults, Christian cults, Qigong cults, Qabalistic cults, etc. If there is a spiritual path there is a cult available for those seeking such a thing. What is and what is not a cult has a subjective element as well. Groups in power will often call other sects "cults" simply to discredit them. Look how the Chinese gov't labeled practitioners of Falun Gong cultists. Labeling them as such granted them the right (in their twisted little minds)to persecute, imprison, torture and murder these "cultists."

 

On the term occult. That is about the most subjective term on the planet. A great deal of what is discussed here..chi, siddhis, meditation, OBE's, magick, yogic practices, meditation, the Self, chakras, nadis, etc. is absolutely considered occult by mainstream Western/Middle Eastern religions. You don't have to be wearing a robe, casting a circle and wearing a pentagram to be involved in the "occult." Anything that allows the individual to be empowered at the expense of the professed dogma is a threat and is therefore "occult."

 

Meditation was "occult" in the Western world until relatively recently. Now its everywhere. The word occult simply means secret.

 

Esotericism is simply the study and practice of seeking the deep meanings buried beneath the superficial presentation of a religion or philosophy. These is esoteric Christianity (gnostic and esoteric Christianity specifically), esoteric Judaism (Kabbalah or Qabalah..though there are signifigant differences), esoteric Islam (Sufism), etc.

 

It is in seeking of the esoteric and the occult within a religion or philosophy that one may learn the deep, dogma transcending and liberating truths hidden in the spiritually dead husks of organized religion.

Love and Peace,

 

Sundragon

 

Thank you!

[Spiritual_Aspirant]

My rule of thumb is, it's ok to respect the teacher, but it's more important to test the teachings. The test of the pudding is in the eating. Even Buddha said we should focus on the teachings and not the personality of the teacher.

[Dreamingawake]

The entire culture is cult-like in its structure: family, school, church, spiritual, social system, political parties. I think people need to ask whether they are the individuals they think they are before focusing on the other half of the equation. It's too easy (and considerably more comfortable) to point to small examples of negative cult behaviour in order to take the heat off of the macro-cults ( and micro ones-our ego selves!). For example the largest example of cult hysteria I've 'witnessed' lately was the Obama election and it's ongoing aftermath: he is now officially a secular saint(Nobel Prize) and everyone is too embaressed to admit he is naked so the support is still there, with everyone playing their zombie-like roles of tacit support lest the ego is confronted with the truth of its reactionary behaiour. And when he finally has used up all his chances to prove our 'choice' of candidate right, we will disown him because of his bad behaviour and bitch about how he has let us down! We are all our own cults (of personality) and the social system plays on the need for the ego to hide in a system that mirrors/hides that fact, thus replicating 'itself' and ourselves. I'm almost at the stage in my life where I think outright cult behaviour is far less damaging than those cults that are officially sanctioned since there is probably more chance of escaping the intensity of indoctrination and of learning valuable lessons from it in the long term than escaping the 'mundanity of evil' found in socially sanctioned systems.

 

Also the amount of involvement/interaction between what we call governments and cults tells us something about the value cults have for social control......anyway...it could go on forever this mirroring of society/self/cult. I think it all starts by the individual letting their guard down and giving up their self-regulation through confusion/lethargy etc and that probably comes from the immensity of 'choices'/confusion our democracies throw at us. Paul

 

OMG! He actually said it! In public!! Be careful bro; the Obombies (Obama-zombie get it? ) eat non-believers. First they'll discredit you as a racist for speaking against the new messiah, then they'll eat your brains

[Trunk]

Cults are about personality worship ...

I'd agree that that's often a dynamic in cults, but it's not how I've defined them. Certainly a group often becomes an "admiration society" towards the leader such that people neglect their own root.

 

I was talking to a friend about cults a while back and he identified the dynamic that often there's some genuinely good stuff in a group (whether it's the teacher, view, method, lineage...) and usually there's some disfunctional stuff too. It's when people are so enamoured of the good stuff that the disfunctional stuff never gets acknowledged nor addressed, but rather ignored and made sort of unconscious on a group level. And sometimes the disfunctional stuff has room to grow way out of size as a result.

[hagar]

I'd agree that that's often a dynamic in cults, but it's not how I've defined them. Certainly a group often becomes an "admiration society" towards the leader such that people neglect their own root.

 

I was talking to a friend about cults a while back and he identified the dynamic that often there's some genuinely good stuff in a group (whether it's the teacher, view, method, lineage...) and usually there's some disfunctional stuff too. It's when people are so enamoured of the good stuff that the disfunctional stuff never gets acknowledged nor addressed, but rather ignored and made sort of unconscious on a group level. And sometimes the disfunctional stuff has room to grow way out of size as a result.

 

Very true.

 

h

[NeiChuan]

OMG! He actually said it! In public!! Be careful bro; the Obombies (Obama-zombie get it? ) eat non-believers. First they'll discredit you as a racist for speaking against the new messiah, then they'll eat your brains

 

Lol If people want to be emotional about something they've looked nothing into about-let them be idiots. lol

[Trunk]

... the Obombies (Obama-zombie get it? ) eat non-believers. First they'll discredit you as ...

I've seen a number of commentators on the left critique Obama. Rachel Maddow, Dennis Kucinich, various posts at major left wing news sites.

[Dreamingawake]

Lol If people want to be emotional about something they've looked nothing into about-let them be idiots. lol

 

Try and say that when they're eating your brains!

The zombie/obambie apocalypse can't be far off now!

 

As long as were on the subject of zombie cults...

apologies to any christians who are offended by the above image. I think it's hilarious and had to share

[suninmyeyes]

I know this is a touchy subject and I believe it is important to know if one is involved in one or not. Cults are about personality worship and I believe that one does not need to live in a community or close to the cult leader in order to be manipulated.

 

There is a lot of discussion on TTB about various teachers, practices and lineages. Are any of these cult like?

ralis

in india for example there is sooooooo many cults and a lot of schools,orphaneges and medical help is run by these cults,which is great otherwise many people would not have help.whole system is still quite old school .

also i belive they are good becouse they might spread some basic awarness ,thats how i found out about meditation etc.but beyond that its up to us what to take and learn to take what we really need,that way manipulation is not possible.

not my cup of tea though.

[ShaktiMama]

I know this is a touchy subject and I believe it is important to know if one is involved in one or not. Cults are about personality worship and I believe that one does not need to live in a community or close to the cult leader in order to be manipulated.

 

There is a lot of discussion on TTB about various teachers, practices and lineages. Are any of these cult like?

ralis

 

Always something that I like to keep on hand for helping discern just that:

 

http://bob-dratch.org/guru1.htm

 

Its always good, IMO, to determine for oneself what is and is not a cult. A cult is basically a group of like minded people. Just where do we draw the line?

[innerspace_cadet]

I think this cult like worship of gurus comes from Westerners' fascination with anything "Eastern" or exotic. This fascination stems from the naive notion that the West is "materialistic" and the East is "spiritual" when in reality, there are elements of both in the East and the West.

 

And seriously, not everything in the Eastern religions is so wise. Of course, it's great if you are a Hindu born into a Brahmin family, but if you are born an outcaste, your life will be living hell. Why do you think so many outcaste Hindus are converting to Christianity or Buddhism? It is because they don't see a future as outcastes in Hinduism. Westerners like to portray Old Tibet as some Buddhist utopia, when in reality it was a brutal Buddhist theocracy. Whenever a religion is enmeshed with the state, it becomes a tool of oppression, no matter how peaceful the religion is.

 

I think there is some hypocrisy with Western "seekers" of Eastern religions. They will automatically dismiss Christianity and express skepticism about it, but when a guru arrives off the plane from the East, they will leave their brains at the door.

 

I am not intending to slam Eastern religions or promote Western ones, my point is you just need to think for yourself.

[RyanO]

Fascinating discussion.

 

I remember one time in class in high school I said that I considered Christianity a cult, fully believing that but not thinking much of it, and numerous people were offended and became hostile. Made me feel like I was surrounded by cultists!

 

But I said this thinking that not all cults are bad, as I defined 'cult' as any religious organization. I later researched the word and found that in out society 'cult' is used as a term to describe any non-major religious organization.

 

So whether something is a cult or not is a determination given by the masses.

 

But the masses are wrong so often...

[just-me]

Calm down

[Guest paul walter]

OMG! He actually said it! In public!! Be careful bro; the Obombies (Obama-zombie get it? ) eat non-believers. First they'll discredit you as a racist for speaking against the new messiah, then they'll eat your brains

 

 

I'm holed up in a country that's not America (I think...?!) so I may be safe for a while.

[Guest paul walter]

Always something that I like to keep on hand for helping discern just that:

 

http://bob-dratch.org/guru1.htm

 

Its always good, IMO, to determine for oneself what is and is not a cult. A cult is basically a group of like minded people. Just where do we draw the line?

 

 

 

Probably with the self, which is the original cult leader/member we choose not to call such. So in that case it's not that helpful to point the finger outside ourselves in order to avoid the implications of our own desire to escape/return to the self. All who enter formalised cult structures/thinking are simply projecting 'self' desires/needs and acting on them. It's like the Hitler/Nazi lesson no-one wants to learn-the Nazi leadership was smallish but had a mass of support from people who needed to believe in them. The Nazi's are not the lesson- their followers are. If you fail to discern you become the victim of your own impulses to feel comfort in your discomfort. The sociey you live in fosters this from an early age, otherwise people would escape and the 'glue' would dissolve and then.....