Taoism

[effilang]

I want to branch a topic of discussion from this thread:

http://www.thetaobums.com/Time-between-eja...ice-t13042.html

 

I think that everything that "IS" is natural, regardless of its Yin/Yang charge, if we consume it moderately we can maintain the harmony of Yin/Yang within ourselves.

 

There are many things which the path of Tao restricts. Many things, which by our qualification of existence define and constitute the nature of life: experiences, food, tastes, certain emotions, even vices.

 

This is my opinion, but i feel that the path of Tao as rewarding as it is, may perhaps be only half of what "existence" is about. Although there are those of us who might ascend to spiritual heights permanently and not even require a physical body... i argue that is Yin and the Physical body is Yang (Or the other way around) and within Tao, one must find the harmony between those two, which should not exclude one from the experiences related to the physical body.

 

Can one exist truly only as essence? - What would be the purpose of your existence, if not to love and help others? - A feat which can only be performed by going there where help and love is needed; the physical world.

 

I may yet lack the understanding of some concepts, but i strongly feel that neither a solely spiritual existence or a solely physical existence is the true nature of Tao. I believe that even one who attains immortality and union with the Tao, at the height of existential heights, will eventually return to the physical plain, because the "ghost must inhabit the shell" - regardless of how advanced or lacking EITHER of them are.

 

There is a saying: "The ripe rice plant, bows it's head low"

Edited December 31, 2009 by effilang

[Marblehead]

Should one be celibate all his life to become one with the Tao? - I don't know.

 

There is nothing in the Tao Te Ching or in Chuang Tzu that even remotely suggests that a person be celibate. These ideas entered Taoism after Chuang Tzu and is related to Alchemic and Religious Taoism.

 

I agree that there is little said regarding spirituality in the TTC or Chuang Tzu. Personally, I have supplimented that aspect of my life with Native American Spirituality. I found that it is consistent with Taoist Philosophy and I find no conflicts between the two in this regard.

 

Peace & Love!

Edited December 31, 2009 by Marblehead

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well if anyone is a fan of B.K. Frantzis, he writes in one of his books in which he asks his teacher about celibacy, and his teacher says that celibacy isn't really a requirement for advanced spiritual attainment. Some people are more celibate than others.

 

Of course, as marblehead said, celibacy and retention probably has more to do with alchemy or some kind of energy practice, rather than just straight enlightenment.

 

And, of course, it's one thing to not be celibate because of some natural reasons, and another to not be celibate because you are attached to sex, so that's worth considering as well.

[effilang]

Hmm...

Edited December 31, 2009 by effilang

[Non]

"The tao that is celibate, is not the tao..."

[effilang]

"The tao that is celibate, is not the tao..."

 

I was trying to spark a conversation regarding the following below, not celibacy : )

I would really like to know what people think about this. It is something that crosses my mind regularly.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I think that everything that "IS" is natural, regardless of its Yin/Yang charge, if we consume it moderately we can maintain the harmony of Yin/Yang within ourselves.

 

There are many things which the path of Tao restricts. Many things, which by our qualification of existence define and constitute the nature of life: experiences, food, tastes, certain emotions, even vices.

 

This is my opinion, but i feel that the path of Tao as rewarding as it is, may perhaps be only half of what "existence" is about. Although there are those of us who might ascend to spiritual heights permanently and not even require a physical body... i argue that is Yin and the Physical body is Yang (Or the other way around) and within Tao, one must find the harmony between those two, which should not exclude one from the experiences related to the physical body.

 

Can one exist truly only as essence? - What would be the purpose of your existence, if not to love and help others? - A feat which can only be performed by going there where help and love is needed; the physical world.

 

I may yet lack the understanding of some concepts, but i strongly feel that neither a solely spiritual existence or a solely physical existence is the true nature of Tao. I believe that even one who attains immortality and union with the Tao, at the height of existential heights, will eventually return to the physical plain, because the "ghost must inhabit the shell" - regardless of how advanced or lacking EITHER of them are.

 

There is a saying: "The ripe rice plant, bows it's head low"

[Stigweard]

Heya effilang,

 

If your perception tells you that Taoism is only "half the pie" then, quite simply, you have missed half the pie of Taoism.

 

From "Jade Emperor's Heart Seal Sutra"

 

...

 

When the Ching is full, the Chi also becomes full.

Like an evergreen, you must grow your Ching and Chi.

In this way your life's tree will never wither,

Even when reaching your winter years.

Ching, Chi and Shen are in fact one.

To find this wonderful miracle,

You need only know this precious treasure

Within your own being.

 

...

 

Taoist celibacy, when and where appropriate, is to be viewed in the light of nourishing our Ching to fullness. Taoist celibacy is also something that is not to be forced through artificial thinking. If it is the natural progress of the individual to be celibate then they are celibate, if not then they are not.

 

We should also not fall into the trap of assuming we know the view from the mountain top when we are still standing on the valley floor. Neither you or I are Xian (i.e. Heavenly Immortal) so let's not fool ourselves that we can even conjecture what state of existence or awareness such a being might have.

 

Your answers will only be found through your practice and not your questions.

 

[effilang]

Thank you for your opinion Stigweard : )

 

 

The notion i was trying to highlight through that metaphor, was the prevailing perception of Taoism's greatest attainment being that one reaches the highest high of spirituality eg: becomes an immortal, attains enlightenment and is able to separate their consciousness from the physical plane and exist else where, wherever that is.

 

I realize that union with the Tao is the ultimate achievement, but many people on here whose posts i've read tend to convey, that beyond that, there is nothing else to achieve.

 

What is knowledge if you cannot share it, what is love if u cannot give it, what is enlightenment and immortality if you cannot teach others to free themselves in the same way? - Are a bunch of immortals having tea somewhere? - What would be the point of such an existence ? - Is that not ego?

 

Don't we get, so we can give? - I believe that those who cultivate to leave this realm, do so to free themselves of the shackles of the physical world, but once those shackles are broken - They return to give and share and love.

 

My argument is that a lot i have read seems to circulate around the idea that, the physical plane is the lesser of the two, and i can understand why, but isn't this against the nature of Taoism in itself? - Shouldn't Yin and Yang be harmonious?

 

Reaching the highest peak of spiritual attainment, is just that and nothing else. It is nothing on its own.

U can be the master of the physical, or the master of the spiritual, but if you are not the master of both, then is that Tao?

 

If it is so, then isn't the physical world just a prison for our souls? - Or is it a "mission" a chronic pain, which those who have separated from, come back through reincarnation to help alleviate by spreading wisdom and knowledge and helping the world ascend and evolve?

 

I am no immortal thats for sure - And this is only speculation, but i feel that if i ever reached a state of immortality, my most important goal would be to come back to the physical plane and teach others as much as i can and help our race evolve.

 

Thats why i say, is Taoism in that sense only half of the pie? - Is the other half to come back to the physical?

 

Union with the Tao is like someone finding their true self... but when you do, you have to put what you have become to use. Otherwise it is a waste, whether you're immortal or not.

 

Yin and Yang on their own as a concept are nothing, nothing until they come together to create everything that exists in the universe, and those are the highest powers we know of. Having said that, is it not appropriate to say that, WE, our spirit our physical body, who are all a result of Yin and Yang, likewise are NOTHING and of NO USE, if we do not CREATE, and SHARE our power and love and knowledge?

 

So what do you guys think? - Is "immortality" only half the pie? - Will you be satisfied with getting a sun tan on a cloud, when there is so much that can be done to love and help the earth and its population?

 

Happy New Year Europe btw

 

PS: I am not assuming i know the view of the mountain top... Yet. This speculation is driven out of compassion, because i want to help with the knowledge and Tao-willing abilities i achieve through my practices : )

Edited January 1, 2010 by effilang

[Stigweard]

Thank you for your opinion Stigweard : )

The notion i was trying to highlight through that metaphor, was the prevailing perception of Taoism's greatest attainment being that one reaches the highest high of spirituality eg: becomes an immortal, attains enlightenment and is able to separate their consciousness from the physical plane and exist else where, wherever that is.

 

I realize that union with the Tao is the ultimate achievement, but many people on here whose posts i've read tend to convey, that beyond that, there is nothing else to achieve.

 

What is knowledge if you cannot share it, what is love if u cannot give it, what is enlightenment and immortality if you cannot teach others to free themselves in the same way? - Are a bunch of immortals having tea somewhere? - What would be the point of such an existence ? - Is that not ego?

 

Don't we get, so we can give? - I believe that those who cultivate to leave this realm, do so to free themselves of the shackles of the physical world, but once those shackles are broken - They return to give and share and love.

 

My argument is that a lot i have read seems to circulate around the idea that, the physical plane is the lesser of the two, and i can understand why, but isn't this against the nature of Taoism in itself? - Shouldn't Yin and Yang be harmonious?

 

Reaching the highest peak of spiritual attainment, is just that and nothing else. It is nothing on its own.

U can be the master of the physical, or the master of the spiritual, but if you are not the master of both, then is that Tao?

 

If it is so, then isn't the physical world just a prison for our souls? - Or is it a "mission" a chronic pain, which those who have separated from, come back through reincarnation to help alleviate by spreading wisdom and knowledge and helping the world ascend and evolve?

 

I am no immortal thats for sure - And this is only speculation, but i feel that if i ever reached a state of immortality, my most important goal would be to come back to the physical plane and teach others as much as i can and help our race evolve.

 

Thats why i say, is Taoism in that sense only half of the pie? - Is the other half to come back to the physical?

 

Union with the Tao is like someone finding their true self... but when you do, you have to put what you have become to use. Otherwise it is a waste, whether you're immortal or not.

 

Yin and Yang on their own as a concept are nothing, nothing until they come together to create everything that exists in the universe, and those are the highest powers we know of. Having said that, is it not appropriate to say that, WE, our spirit our physical body, who are all a result of Yin and Yang, likewise are NOTHING and of NO USE, if we do not CREATE, and SHARE our power and love and knowledge?

 

So what do you guys think? - Is "immortality" only half the pie? - Will you be satisfied with getting a sun tan on a cloud, when there is so much that can be done to love and help the earth and its population?

 

Happy New Year Europe btw

 

PS: I am not assuming i know the view of the mountain top... Yet. This speculation is driven out of compassion, because i want to help with the knowledge and Tao-willing abilities i achieve through my practices : )

Questioning, speculating, pondering, and contemplating "how things will be" once you get to your preconceived "there" of Taoist achievement are wasted energy if they do not lead you to sincere practice.

 

Which will get you "there" sooner: Speculation or practice?

[effilang]

Questioning, speculating, pondering, and contemplating "how things will be" once you get to your preconceived "there" of Taoist achievement are wasted energy if they do not lead you to sincere practice.

 

Which will get you "there" sooner: Speculation or practice?

 

Huh?... They DO lead to my practice.

 

It is because we awaken to ask "why" or "what" and "how" that we realize there is more than the physical.

 

Questions are not the black plague u model them to be... - often they are just a nudge towards a higher level or reasoning and understanding.

 

Contemplation to me is an important part of my development.

There is use for nothing if everything exists without reason.

 

Edited January 1, 2010 by effilang

[Stigweard]

Questions are not the black plague u model them to be...

Here's a quote from Theun Mares:

 

Whenever a man is faced with anything out of the ordinary he will, according to his temperament, always resort to one of three kinds of bad habits:

 

The bigot will ignore what has happened and pretend it has never occurred.

 

The sanctimonious man will accept the incident at face value, believing that he understands it all.

 

The foolish man is forever puzzled by what has happened, not knowing whether to accept or reject the incident, and thus becomes obsessed with his questions.

 

When the Warrior encounters anything extraordinary he behaves as if nothing has happened, because he does not believe for the sake of believing. Although the warrior accepts the face value of something, he also ignores it, for he knows the world is not what it appears to be. Therefore, the warrior behaves as if he is in control, even when he may be totally baffled, for by acting in this way he avoids the confusion born of obsession.

You don't know how it would be if you achieved the state of being a Xian from your current limited perspective. So it is pointless you trying to imagine it. If you are hanging off a cliff-face engaged in a life or death struggle to ascend the mountain then such speculation is not only a gross waste of energy but you may also miss the summit when you get to it because you were expecting something else.

[effilang]

Here's a quote from Theun Mares:

You don't know how it would be if you achieved the state of being a Xian from your current limited perspective. So it is pointless you trying to imagine it. If you are hanging off a cliff-face engaged in a life or death struggle to ascend the mountain then such speculation is not only a gross waste of energy but you may also miss the summit when you get to it because you were expecting something else.

 

First off

 

I am not interested in becoming a Xian right now, this has never been my motivation.

I am not expecting anything either.

I am not obsessing : )

 

I have no goal other than to practice and i practice, whatever comes through that, does, i do not want, just simply receive.

 

To say that thinking about something before one has achieved it is pointless, is like saying that the Wright brothers should have never asked themselves if they could make something take flight and carry people over oceans... seeing as we have airplanes now. We do not get anywhere without an established goal, which all rise from healthy questions. Questions IMO are just as much the precursor of results and progress as No Questions is.

 

All things can be answered with a question and all things can be answered through meditation. Neither is the wrong way, and both of them at some point require the other. I think its just Yin/Yang.

 

If i am climbing up a mountain with a 10,000 steps with a bag of water and fresh fruit - is it pointless to imagine sharing it with the hungry and thirsty people at the top and imagining their happiness? - I don't think good intent is pointless.

 

And IMO to ask and contemplate whether the path one has taken will allow him to share his knowledge and help his fellows, is not an act of selfishness or obsession, but on the contrary defines the selflessness of that persons motivation.

 

What is all the happiness, money, love, healing, knowledge and power in the world worth, if u cannot share it.

Thus, my question - which i somewhat feel u may have misunderstood - is:

 

If immortality, unification with Tao, etc. and all it's achievements separates you from the physical realm, where you might use them to help and heal others - Is it a selfish pursuit?

 

In Essence it is ourselves that we cultivate, but isn't that just as selfish as doing anything else for yourself without the prospect of using what u get to help and love others?

 

Many strive for it with the aim that it is the ultimate and final goal, but is spiritual enlightenment perhaps a starting point, rather than an end? - Is it just a phase we pass, in order to come back and lead better lives in the physical realm?

 

But then i guess there is the whole incarnation deal : )

 

These are not poisonous questions. It is simply a healthy appreciation of the possibilities : )

 

 

PS: BTW i generally agree with you Stigweard, but not about contemplation and asking questions being pointless!

 

Happy New Year! _/\_

Edited January 1, 2010 by effilang

[goldisheavy]

I agree that there is little said regarding spirituality in the TTC or Chuang Tzu.

 

That's an absurd statement to my mind. I guess I have a very different idea of spirituality. My idea doesn't involve chakras or crystals. It involves challenging our assumptions about the perceived reality. And the 3 Taoist Sages are great for that.

[Marblehead]

That's an absurd statement to my mind. I guess I have a very different idea of spirituality. My idea doesn't involve chakras or crystals. It involves challenging our assumptions about the perceived reality. And the 3 Taoist Sages are great for that.

 

Yeah, we already know that we disagree on a lot of concepts.

 

I really don't think my statement was absurd though. It is simply what I understand. Yes, I suppose we have different understandings of the word 'spiritual'.

 

Peace & Love!