dont know if i should be posting this but is this someone on here?

[mewtwo]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92703

[Mal]

haha what a bizzar looking web site. Still it's a free WWWorld they can say what they like.

 

In a weird coincidence my partner D was just asking me last night if I was going to go overseas to do some meditation practice with Santi. I'd love to but I'd enjoy a bit of fighting training more. Fighting with your friends is the best fun Probably take a few years for me to get the $$ for an international flight together but we are still young

[Aetherous]

There are two ways to look at it, both legit in my opinion...

 

One is that the bullshido guys are doing a service to martial art beginners who want to find a reliable teacher. This is appreciated by many, who don't want to be fooled and who have a lot of respect for tradition.

 

The other way to look at it, is that the bullshido guys are very closed minded and way too quick to judge. Most don't actually go train with the teacher in question, and aren't ready to see what that person has to teach. "This guy seems like a shitty teacher" sums up the attitude. Because of this, they will never know if the teacher had something valuable to share. Also, the idea that a person isn't going to be a good martial arts teacher just because they are into spiritual stuff is ridiculous.

[everseeking]

Ha. In all seriousness, whatever Santi has or hasn't said to other Silat people is something I know nothing of--so as far as that is concerned, I have no idea.

 

But, Bullshido has always come across as BullSHIT in my perception.

 

Everything I've ever read on there seems to consist of the following, in essence:

 

Question

 

===="Hey fellow MMA nut-riders, does anyone here have any experience with xxxx school/person from ________ traditional martial art from _______ country of origin? (CMA, etc.) "

 

Response

 

===="Hmm, they claim to be able to do stuff that sounds impossible, like gouge peoples eyes, break concrete with their bare hands, fight standing up without going to the ground, and have knowledge of some sort of fighting beyond BJJ, Muay Thai, and Greco-Roman wrestling."

 

Then, the follow up.

 

====Yeah, I checked 'em out--I called the sifu and challenged him to a match in the ring--he said he doesn't fight in the ring. Shit must be fake. LOL. Im gonna go work out and see if my training partner wants to hit the showers."

 

IMO, UFC became nothing more that talented athletes after they changed the rules to limit the chance of gross bodily harm--it then heavily favored BJJ and the like.

 

 

And just to be clear fellow bums, I have nothing against people who want to fight in the ring--just Bullshido in general. I DO appreciate how they make it known what a fraud Ashida Kim is. They have exposed other frauds. And they are of course free to have and express their opinion . Its just that the atmosphere of that site seems like the air is only free to breath if you are a big MMA person. In fact, fighting in the ring seems to be their litmus test. Maybe I'm wrong?

[mewtwo]

My oppinion on the bullshido guys is that they dont care what style of martial art you teach but they want to see you back it up in what you can do, they would not care if you taught purple elephant style all they care about is that you are a good teacher and not in it for money. so not a bullshidoist or mcdojo. They dont believe in chi or anything like that cause it cant be proven. If this does get an investigation mind if i direct them over to this forum cause this seems to be one of the ones that santiago is active on?

[voidisyinyang]

well they say Santiago has lots of drama on http://www.silat.tv/

 

Anyone want to weed through that website to dish up some specific links?

 

My oppinion on the bullshido guys is that they dont care what style of martial art you teach but they want to see you back it up in what you can do, they would not care if you taught purple elephant style all they care about is that you are a good teacher and not in it for money. so not a bullshidoist or mcdojo. They dont believe in chi or anything like that cause it cant be proven. If this does get an investigation mind if i direct them over to this forum cause this seems to be one of the ones that santiago is active on?

[ShaktiMama]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92703

 

 

classy...

 

interesting though...the only place on the whole world wide web where I post as shaktimama is on bums. I made that name up specifically for this forum

 

the only place on the whole world wide web where I posted a public link to the kundalini sex group except on private, members only lists is on bums.

 

interesting that no one checked that the kundalini sex group is for the discussion of Sacred Sexuality and Tantra...

 

interesting that any one who has every read anything about santi on this list is knows that he invites people down to "play" with him in Florida...he's got some MMAs as students i think...

 

his ring is the outdoors or on the streets or doing professional protection as body guard...

 

if he reads this I am almost 100% sure his response would be "bring it..."

 

nice research....someone surely has a hard on for santi

 

well...i guess any PR is good PR...

 

guess no one is interested in peace but rather hostile conflict

 

so what is your intent...to beat someone up with your internet key board or to promote the way of the Dao? what does it say about someone who is so eager to draw first blood rather than promote understanding and clarity?

 

but that is OK...it is just the way it is on the path when someone stands out above the vanilla crowd of wannabes

 

be ashamed....

 

note my sig down below and know that you have told me more about yourself by your actions than what ever you may write on this board again.

Edited January 1, 2010 by ShaktiMama

[Aetherous]

They dont believe in chi or anything like that cause it cant be proven.

 

Hmmm...having gone through 3 different courses in physiology (psychological, human, and exercise) at the university level makes me question the sincerity of someone who believes "qi" can't be proven.

 

Do these guys know anything about ATP synthesis in the electron transport chain of the mitochondria? They might want to look into that, as well as do research with a true qigong adept...someone like Chunyi Lin, for instance, who has a good track record with the Mayo Clinic in actually healing people of severe conditions.

 

Qigong would be a benefit their martial practice, causing them to heal more quickly and develop increased internal sensitivity and situational awareness. Too bad for them.

[everseeking]

My vote is that you direct Santi there, but I hope noone brings those people here.

 

After all the threads I've seen that degenerate to flaming and name calling, I think we have enough of that here, without a bunch of Bullshido folks.

 

And whats wrong with being in it for the money? Are people to tech for free? Or only allow themselves to make enough profit to break even out of some contrived virtue?

 

Its really easy to (wrongly) label someone a fraud. Walk a mile in their shoes.

 

IMO, the only major fraud I can imagine happening would be to break the agreement--as in, if a teacher agrees to teach x information for x dollars, and then doesn't deliver, that is not a good teacher.

 

Or is they grossly misrepresent their teaching--such as, 'you can whip anyone with my Tai Chi form--even the top ranked fighters in the ufc' or some other nonsense.

 

I understand the Bullshido folks are REALLY big on teachers that ask you to sign a contract--but that whole scenario is deeper than it seems.

 

For one thing, asking someone to sign a contract isn't all bad.

 

If a teacher is really good, asking for some money for their time isn't reasonable. I know that I would someday love to be able to make a decent living (or recoup some of the money I've spent) doing something I love.

 

If you are a MA teacher full time, all the fees and contract stuff just comes down to business strategy.

 

Unfortunately, $ makes the world go round.

 

Also, I once had to pay a large sum of money to get out of a contract with a Gym because I signed a year contract, even though I moved far away, I still had to settle out of it. I think it was bullshit, but it happens all the time. If a lot of people got hard up for money and quit the Gym at the same time, without some contract to guarantee a little money, the Gym might have to close or some other problems. The people who owned the Gym were like many others, just trying to make a living doing something they like.

 

But if someone asks you to sign a contract for MA lessons, people act like they are being forced to sign over their first born.

 

Martial arts teachers aren't immortal superhumans that can live in Shamballa and survive by eating air.

 

In fact, I don't know what the current average wage is, but for a person who teaches MA (as of a few years ago) the everage salary is only like $40,000 a year.

[NeiChuan]

Its up to Vajrasattva if he wants too acknowledge them.

 

Personally I think he owes them nothing.

[everseeking]

I agree, and just to be clear about my meaning, I mean that I'd rather him or people from TTB be directed there (Bullshido) than someone do anything to direct Bullshido people here.

 

We have plenty of negativity, but I still feel like this place is mostly a sanctuary.

 

I hope for things to stay that way,

 

Happy New Year:-)

Edited January 1, 2010 by everseeking

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

'Surely this combination of Taoism / Kundalini / Martial Arts (including Ninjas!) has to be dodgy?'(bullshido post)

 

I just wanna pick up on this really, within Ninjutsu Daoist concepts/philosophy 5 elemental theory(in practice)and spiritual awakenings such as kundalini...and obviously martial arts are present(we have Chinese roots don't ya know), so this statement is pretty dumb in itself. Bearing in mind Ninjutsu/Ninpo is a warrior enlightenment system that was essentially created and propagated as a martial art in order to protect that knowledge therein(at least with Togakure ryu)then it's plain to see someone doesn't know what the ***k their talking about in that respect. I should add that not all the Ninja ryu had a spiritual/cultivation angle, some where purely physical, such as Koga ryu(deceased lineage).

 

'I LOLed at one of their book recommendations "Path Notes of an American Ninja Master by Dr. Glenn Morris" ' (bullshido post)

 

Glenn Morris was a tenth Dan, he didn't get that from milking cows. 'Path notes' is a very fine book indeed, more esoteric than actually the physical side of Ninjutsu, that's true, but Ninpo the inner side is dealt with in ways that to my knowledge no other Ninjutsu exponent has really dealt with openly(cos their not allowed to)because he came to it from his own development he could say what he wanted to. The title is cheesy, but that's a deliberate move on his part.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Bullshido is just like the Tao Bums.

 

Yes, you heard that right, bullshido is just like the taobums.

 

They have an overarching goal- to get REAL martial arts. Just like we here want real spirituality (and also real martial arts from time to time).

 

There are many really good MAists on bullshido, who really care what they do, really know their shit, have done their homework, have trained with many teachers, have read many books, studied the history, and have been around the block many many times. Just like here, there are many accomplished practitioners who know what they are talking about.

 

Bullshido has a certain atmosphere that attracts people who just like the "image" of bullshido. They want to be a bullshido bully, so will go around calling bullshit on things without doing the appropriate amount of work. They like to pretend they know what they are talking about, but really don't. Just like here.

 

You have to separate the bullshido image, the common bullshido bully, and the dedicated bullshido member, just like you have to do with the taobums.

 

And, just like with martial arts or spirituality, you have to keep a discerning mind. Just because many of us here study things that are not physical doesn't mean we have to throw all critical thinking out the window. Just like if a martial artist says he could be 20 MMA guys in a ring needs to prove it, someone who says they have attained some such powers or enlightenment should also be able to show some sort of proof of his accomplishment (even if it be in the way he or she acts on a day to day basis with other people). If they come up with some hundreds of reasons why they can't show how awesome their system is, well then their claims need to be taken with at least a little, you know, caution.

 

And that's really the only thing bullshido is about (once you separate the bullshido from the bullshit), finding good instruction and the true "path", the true "tao", just like us here

 

And for the record, I've seen the taobums listed several times throughout the months/years on various bullshido threads, many bullshido members have seen this site and are aware of our existence, we are far from a "sanctuary", but most of them don't care, they don't think a lot of this stuff exists, and know better than to come to a site dedicated to it to flame.. Of course, if any of us think we have a way to prove our stuff, then the bullshido guys will listen, after all:

 

BTW: Bullshido is not the inquisition. The outcome of an investigation may just as well be that the guy is a legit genius. Happened before. So why not?

 

Quoted from the linked thread.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[lino]

 

Okay

 

If he does have so-called "drama" maybe it is so that people will ratchet up their concentration and learn something good.

[Vajrasattva]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=92703

 

I guess folks have nothing better to do with themselves.

 

well they say Santiago has lots of drama on http://www.silat.tv/

 

Anyone want to weed through that website to dish up some specific links?

 

 

Here are the specifics....

 

I train in Serak. I train in Cimande. I never "targeted" anyone. I have nothing but respect for Guru Stevan Plinck. He is one of my teacher's teachers & friend. I do have an issue with people being closed minded but then again that is their gig not mine. PEOPLE who after 16+ years of training still look like a bad beginner yet they can write & talk and spread their "theory" as if they where the "art" itself.

 

I simply stated truths few in the USA & in the Dutch Silat world do not want to face because of a dishonest group of people/Family in silat that has done nothing but propagate a huge lie in the silat community. But again here is my take on it based on research and study.

 

Serak:

 

for the most part is coming from a much older system from West Java names CIMANDE.

 

The rest of Serak is for the most part internal Chinese Arts aka a more linear Bagua & Xing yi & Some Tai ji along with Kuntau & Shaolin and "some" Kalari.

 

The only drama on silat.tv was that i shared with folks a bit of history and truth according to & confirmed by actual Indonesian masters and teachers (Pak Muhammad, Cimande master Mang Didi along with others from Java).

 

I am happy to see that once again people hide behind fake names & their Keyboard instead of coming to me directly for answers.

 

1) I am not a cult leader nor have anything to do with a cult. I simply help people and do nothing but GIVE.

 

2) You come near me or my family you are going to get more than you bargain for from me + the LAW to deal with.

 

Anyone wishing to see if I can "teach" or "train" serak, Cimande or any silat can come and be my guest in my class.

 

Peace Happy New Year & God Bless.

 

Santiago Dobles

Edited January 1, 2010 by Vajrasattva

[Martial Development]

Bullshido is just like the Tao Bums.

 

Yes, you heard that right, bullshido is just like the taobums.

 

I heard it right, but it ain't right. Searching for truth (my impression of the common agenda here) is NOT the same thing as trying to expose frauds.

 

These folks consider themselves to be the watchmen of the martial arts world, but they do not enjoy being watched themselves!

 

In the words of Geoff Thompson, "a stabber rarely shows and a shower rarely stabs." It is just another funny contrast between the real world and the world of Bullshido, where nothing is real unless it is proven on multiple forum members.

Edited January 1, 2010 by Martial Development

[Vajrasattva]

It is obvious the one looking to sling mud is here on the Tbumbs. I do not use "VAJRASATTVA" elsewhere except here.

 

So who ever you are you are welcome to come see for yourself what I do.

[goldisheavy]

Those guys seem to be the "James Randi" of martial arts. Or wannabes at least. To them nothing spiritual exists, and they are out to discredit anyone and anything that can challenge the doctrine of physicalism. Since Vajrasattva made some statements which do not fit into physicalism, they are aroused. This is why they talk about "alarm bells" going off.

 

But why would someone who doesn't believe in anything spiritual be on tbums, that's the question.

Edited January 1, 2010 by goldisheavy

[ShaktiMama]

'Surely this combination of Taoism / Kundalini / Martial Arts (including Ninjas!) has to be dodgy?'(bullshido post)

 

I just wanna pick up on this really, within Ninjutsu Daoist concepts/philosophy 5 elemental theory(in practice)and spiritual awakenings such as kundalini...and obviously martial arts are present(we have Chinese roots don't ya know), so this statement is pretty dumb in itself. Bearing in mind Ninjutsu/Ninpo is a warrior enlightenment system that was essentially created and propagated as a martial art in order to protect that knowledge therein(at least with Togakure ryu)then it's plain to see someone doesn't know what the ***k their talking about in that respect. I should add that not all the Ninja ryu had a spiritual/cultivation angle, some where purely physical, such as Koga ryu(deceased lineage).

 

'I LOLed at one of their book recommendations "Path Notes of an American Ninja Master by Dr. Glenn Morris" ' (bullshido post)

 

Glenn Morris was a tenth Dan, he didn't get that from milking cows. 'Path notes' is a very fine book indeed, more esoteric than actually the physical side of Ninjutsu, that's true, but Ninpo the inner side is dealt with in ways that to my knowledge no other Ninjutsu exponent has really dealt with openly(cos their not allowed to)because he came to it from his own development he could say what he wanted to. The title is cheesy, but that's a deliberate move on his part.

 

He told me that he wished he had named it something else because it really didn't describe what the book was about.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I heard it right, but it ain't right. Searching for truth (my impression of the common agenda here) is NOT the same thing as trying to expose frauds.

 

It could be argued they are two sides of the same coin..... or two faces of an object with many different sides to it.

 

These folks consider themselves to be the watchmen of the martial arts world, but they do not enjoy being watched themselves!

 

Again, you have to separate the more serious members from the teenagers with complexes (and in some cases adults with complexes...) I suggest you join the bullshido forum, read through the old threads, talk to some members, find out who is who.

 

There was a thread not too long ago in which some guy was offering Brazilian Jujutsu correspondence learning DVD's to attain a black belt in gracie jujutsu in a couple of months. Sufficed to say, the forum nearly imploded, all the members were all over that.

 

Chinese internal martial arts have also been the subject of a lot of research. There are old threads in which dozens, if not hundreds of videos have been compiled showing tai chi, bagua, and xingyi techniques being used in sanshou competitions. Every once in a while a new member will show up and attempt to trash IMA, and all the members will quickly flame him out of there.

 

Their demeanor is a bit abrasive, but at heart they are good guys, and their motives are positive.

 

In the words of Geoff Thompson, "a stabber rarely shows and a shower rarely stabs." It is just another funny contrast between the real world and the world of Bullshido, where nothing is real unless it is proven on multiple forum members.

 

Those guys seem to be the "James Randi" of martial arts. Or wannabes at least. To them nothing spiritual exists, and they are out to discredit anyone and anything that can challenge the doctrine of physicalism. Since Vajrasattva made some statements which do not fit into physicalism, they are aroused. This is why they talk about "alarm bells" going off.

 

But why would someone who doesn't believe in anything spiritual be on tbums, that's the question.

 

For me at least, just because something isn't physical, and just because we can't seem to understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. HOWEVER, while I disagree with people like James Randi, and while I disagree with some (or a lot, depending on the situation) of what bullshido does, still, in the middle of everything they have a good point: you have to be able to experience it SOMEHOW.

 

And, there is a distinction between saying, "you have to experience" and "I can make you experience it". Bullshido, by and large, doesn't care if it's something "you have to experience yourself". It's like having a dream. How do you prove to someone what dream you had last night? You can't really (well, maybe you can.... ) but in general, you just have to believe in the other person.

 

The difference is when someone comes along and says, "my qi power can drop a 250 lb professional MMAist because they haven't developed the qi that I have." In that situation that person should back up their claims. ESPECIALLY if 1) they are charging (sometimes exorbitant amounts of) money, and 2) if they are teaching people who are acting under the assumption that these techniques will protect them from a life and death situation.

 

That's when the bullshido fangs REALLY come out, when people start making claims. And if you aren't going to put up, shut up.

 

People like Yang Luchan said his soft style of martial arts could defeat any adversary. And he got up on the leitai and proved it. He didn't sit there saying, "well my techniques would be too deadly to demonstrate on people." His son, Yang Banhou, was a little less nice, but still proved what he could do. Chen Fake didn't say stuff like, "well I can't use my full power against you because you could die", no, he used his soft power to defeat people without hurting them.

 

I believe in qi, yes. I believe it is possible for qi to overwhelm someone to save your life. Do I believe people when they say that they can do it? I have to see it. Most demonstrations I have seen from "qi guys" have been quite pathetic compared to other styles of fighting. A few promising people failed to show at the last minute for whatever reason. Only a handful of people have really proven they have the goods. And if you can do it and are willing to do it to someone, there is no reason why you can't video tape it and put it on youtube. If you want to stay anonymous or keep your training for a select few students, stop bragging about it! Because if you make claims without backing it up, that's what it is, bragging, and trying to hype your school.

 

Sorry if that seemed like a rant, I was writing it with the nicest possible intentions and the biggest smile while thinking of unicorns and fluffy bunnies

 

And no that wasn't sarcasm

 

Keep it real!

[Martial Development]

Searching for truth (my impression of the common agenda here) is NOT the same thing as trying to expose frauds.

It could be argued they are two sides of the same coin..... or two faces of an object with many different sides to it.

 

That only works on paper. If it were true, then James Randi would have more gongfu than all the people on this forum. It isn't remotely true.

 

Again, you have to separate the more serious members from the teenagers with complexes (and in some cases adults with complexes...) I suggest you join the bullshido forum, read through the old threads, talk to some members, find out who is who.

 

Really? Why exactly do we need to do that? Why do we need to go digging through their manure pile for a lonely piece of grain, as if that were the last meal in town? Everybody who does that has a complex.

[Sloppy Zhang]

That only works on paper. If it were true, then James Randi would have more gongfu than all the people on this forum. It isn't remotely true.

 

Not everyone who doesn't act like James Randi has good gongfu....

 

Really? Why exactly do we need to do that? Why do we need to go digging through their manure pile for a lonely piece of grain, as if that were the last meal in town? Everybody who does that has a complex.

 

Our manure pile isn't made of pieces of grain......

[goldisheavy]

Their demeanor is a bit abrasive, but at heart they are good guys, and their motives are positive.

For me at least, just because something isn't physical, and just because we can't seem to understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. HOWEVER, while I disagree with people like James Randi, and while I disagree with some (or a lot, depending on the situation) of what bullshido does, still, in the middle of everything they have a good point: you have to be able to experience it SOMEHOW.

 

And, there is a distinction between saying, "you have to experience" and "I can make you experience it". Bullshido, by and large, doesn't care if it's something "you have to experience yourself". It's like having a dream. How do you prove to someone what dream you had last night? You can't really (well, maybe you can.... ) but in general, you just have to believe in the other person.

 

The difference is when someone comes along and says, "my qi power can drop a 250 lb professional MMAist because they haven't developed the qi that I have." In that situation that person should back up their claims. ESPECIALLY if 1) they are charging (sometimes exorbitant amounts of) money, and 2) if they are teaching people who are acting under the assumption that these techniques will protect them from a life and death situation.

 

That's when the bullshido fangs REALLY come out, when people start making claims. And if you aren't going to put up, shut up.

 

Sloppy Zhang, I agree with everything you're saying. It makes good sense to me.

 

So, with the fact that I am agreeing in mind, I want to say this: while testing things for genuineness of claims is a good idea, an interesting thing there is the selection process for the testing candidates. In other words, if I don't make spiritual statements or strong claims, I am probably not going to be selected by those guys to be tested/investigated. However, even if all my claims are ordinary, I might still be a crappy teacher who teaches crap that doesn't work. So if those guys want to improve the quality of martial arts, they are pretty biased in whom and how they select for investigations.

 

That's not to say that what they do is worthless, but, to my mind, it has a touch of intellectual dishonesty.

[effilang]

Bullshido and Tao Bums are the same in that, they are both looking for the real stuff and trying to weed out the fakes.

 

But they are different due to their qualification of what is "practical" and what is "real". They simply have different requirements and they are not spiritual. Their concept of Mind / Body unity probably goes as far as the intent generated before breaking a wooden board.

 

They are mainly if not fully biased towards physical and external forms of Martial Arts.

 

So when they see someone who says they teach a hard form of MA, then on the same line see Kundalini and Sexual Practices... that sets off their alarm, but this is only because on their website the aim is to offer visitors looking for an effective form of "self defense" from physical attack tangible and physically effective options that can be applied immediately with little training.

 

You don't want some noob trying to throw Qi Balls at a bar fight after reading about it on their website.

 

If the only information about Santiago that was available was Silat, so and so Dan. They might be curious to verify this and do some modest investigation to confirm it, but all that "other" stuff, doesn't fall under their umbrella.

 

Now i personally have no idea about the person in question, but for those wondering. That is why they have doubts.

Edited January 2, 2010 by effilang

[mjjbecker]

 

People like Yang Luchan said his soft style of martial arts could defeat any adversary. And he got up on the leitai and proved it. He didn't sit there saying, "well my techniques would be too deadly to demonstrate on people." His son, Yang Banhou, was a little less nice, but still proved what he could do. Chen Fake didn't say stuff like, "well I can't use my full power against you because you could die", no, he used his soft power to defeat people without hurting them.

 

 

Please, please, please, let's move away from the term 'soft'. Taijiquan is not a 'soft' martial art. The examples you reference are of neutralising power, nothing 'soft' about them. Taijiquan is a 'hard' and 'soft' martial art, but this again, applies to pretty much ALL martial arts.

 

There is an unfortunate number of 'instructors' who would have people believe taijiquan is all about being 'soft'. However, these people tend to get their arses kicked in both pushing hands and sparring. Don't mention Cheng Manching and the fairytales spun about him by R.W. Smith. Cheng taught his CHINESE students neigong, to develop POWER, while feeding his 'round eye' students a line of shit. An unfortunate fact, documented in interviews with Chinese disciples of Cheng.

 

Gaining ability in 'internal' martial arts requires arduous physical work. It is certainly not easy, nor soft. Much of the power that is developed is highly refined PHYSICAL power. Correct development of the body, along with refined movement. A few might develop something significant regarding 'qi', but the bottom line is the fame of the 'internal' arts comes from masters who could hit like a freight train. If it just came down to qi, the fighting techniques would be redundant.

 

Beware of many of the stories that are floating around also. I don't believe, for one minute, that Yang Luchan became the instructor of Prince Duan's bannermen by kindly neutralising any and all challengers. It is utterly implausible that a close quarter combat instructor, hired to teach elite troops how to kill, would be peddling the crap often seen demonstrated in books. He would HAVE TO HAVE PROVEN HIMSELF, and it would not have been pretty. Fighting men demand proof.

 

The leitai platform was a pretty bloody affair, and people certainly did get killed in these competitions. Whether Yang Luchan killed anyone doing this, I don't know. Other 'internal' artists did though.

 

It is a fact that some stories being propagated in public by well known 'masters' and lineages are bullshit. I know this having been privy to 'inside' information, the proverbial 'horses mouth' as they say. What people in the West define as lying is a perfectly acceptable means of getting results in China. I know this having lived in China for several years now. The 'truth' is what someone wants you to believe, not reality.

 

The above said, I've read many good things about Chen Fake, and I, personally, believe those referring to his high morals and character are true. Apparently he wasn't so gentle with his students though-it is reported that Feng Zhiqiang was the only one willing to engage Chen in pushing hands. The others could not, or would not, take the punishment he gave out to them.