causes for pain

[Magda]

What is the explanation for pain during practice? Not from straining or awkward postures, but unnatural pain in spots of your body that shouldn't hurt. It only happens during practice and most of the time it ceases once it's over.

 

In past I read somewhere (but can't remember the source) that it happens when you get better, that it should be normal. But I waited for enough time and made a conclusion that it wasn't going to stop. Besides, why does it stop when the practice is over, as if it was not something permanently happening from the possible changes but something confined to the practicing process only.

 

In some other place I saw an article about chi-kung illness, that some people develop if they do it incorrectly, but I'm not sure whether it's confined to emotional problems only, or physical ones can be present, too. Anyway, I for sure did not see hallucinations that were said to accompany that illness, and neither had any emotional instability.

 

I'd appreciate some help, please! There's no teacher around, unfortunately, to ask about it.

[Taomeow]

Do you practice with your eyes closed?

[Magda]

No, open.

[Marblehead]

Hi Magda,

 

I researched this idea a while back and I have forgotten most of the information I found but if I recall correctly it has to do with our nerves and how the sensation impulses are communicated to the brain for detection. It seems that our brain will sometimes misinterprete the signals and cause us to think that we have pain in a specific area of our body whareas the actual pain is in a different area.

 

If I recall correctly this is especially common in the area of our lower back and hips.

 

Peace & Love!

[Magda]

So how would you deal with it, to be able to continue?

[Taomeow]

So how would you deal with it, to be able to continue?

If you try it with your eyes closed and tell me which way the pain is worse, with the eyes open or closed, I might think of something.

[Marblehead]

So how would you deal with it, to be able to continue?

 

I'm glad Taomeow offered assistance.

 

All I can tell you is that after my research I apparently just figured that I needed to grin and bear the pain - accept it as being a part of my total being.

 

My situation was (still is) a result of breaking my hip. During recovery I had pains in places that had nothing to do with the break or the surgery for the repair. Apparently some of my nerves got destroyed in the process and they were sending faulty signals.

 

Our brain does have the ability to deal with much of the pain we experience in life. Mind control can reduce the pain we experience significantly.

 

Best Wishes!

 

Peace & Love!

[doc benway]

What is the explanation for pain during practice? Not from straining or awkward postures, but unnatural pain in spots of your body that shouldn't hurt. It only happens during practice and most of the time it ceases once it's over.

 

In past I read somewhere (but can't remember the source) that it happens when you get better, that it should be normal. But I waited for enough time and made a conclusion that it wasn't going to stop. Besides, why does it stop when the practice is over, as if it was not something permanently happening from the possible changes but something confined to the practicing process only.

 

In some other place I saw an article about chi-kung illness, that some people develop if they do it incorrectly, but I'm not sure whether it's confined to emotional problems only, or physical ones can be present, too. Anyway, I for sure did not see hallucinations that were said to accompany that illness, and neither had any emotional instability.

 

I'd appreciate some help, please! There's no teacher around, unfortunately, to ask about it.

It might help us if you would describe your practice as well.

[Magda]

It might help us if you would describe your practice as well.

No it wouldn't, I'd have to describe the pain and how it occurs, too, and I don't like doing that. It's not occruing normally and normal explanations don't fit it, so I really dislike doing that. Out of people to whom I described details previously, nobody knew how to deal with it, although two of them studied under famous masters. This makes me very sad, maybe it's rare, or maybe they aren't very exprienced and didn't deal with the problems of others with energy work that much. Famous masters don't make knowledgeable students autimatically.

 

And how do I know who you are and that you know something? The quantity of forum posts doesn't signify that you know, neither your own belief that you know means that you know. Maybe you just want to talk theoretically, and I will torture myself here by describing everything in detail. You should at least give a hint about what you think, so I could decide whether it's worth it. Sorry but that's the only normal behavior in the forum when you have a problem, I'm not being annoying, I just know that the majority of people who write in various forums use a forum as a place for chatting and don't know anything.

 

I asked for input as a matter of opinion because of that. So I could judge for myself, at least as far as my own understanding permits, or as far as your versions fit my specific case, after all, if they don't, then further discussion wouldn't make sense.

 

 

 

On a side note, does anybody know how to contact somebody like an official teacher? There are no direct emails to get hold of, but only those that can be used to ask for your email to be given further to the master, and it doesn't work that well.

[hagar]

No it wouldn't, I'd have to describe the pain and how it occurs, too, and I don't like doing that. It's not occruing normally and normal explanations don't fit it, so I really dislike doing that. Out of people to whom I described details previously, nobody knew how to deal with it, although two of them studied under famous masters. This makes me very sad, maybe it's rare, or maybe they aren't very exprienced and didn't deal with the problems of others with energy work that much. Famous masters don't make knowledgeable students autimatically.

 

And how do I know who you are and that you know something? The quantity of forum posts doesn't signify that you know, neither your own belief that you know means that you know. Maybe you just want to talk theoretically, and I will torture myself here by describing everything in detail. You should at least give a hint about what you think, so I could decide whether it's worth it. Sorry but that's the only normal behavior in the forum when you have a problem, I'm not being annoying, I just know that the majority of people who write in various forums use a forum as a place for chatting and don't know anything.

 

I asked for input as a matter of opinion because of that. So I could judge for myself, at least as far as my own understanding permits, or as far as your versions fit my specific case, after all, if they don't, then further discussion wouldn't make sense.

On a side note, does anybody know how to contact somebody like an official teacher? There are no direct emails to get hold of, but only those that can be used to ask for your email to be given further to the master, and it doesn't work that well.

 

Magda

 

Qigong and meditation, if done correctly relaxes you. Its often a paradox that when we relax or use a method to open ourselves and the physical body, the areas of tension emerge, and thus we feel pain. Sometimes internal stress (psychosomatic tension stored in the tissue and internal organs) surface as pain in the skin, muscles or as headaches or nausea). Much like if you have been outside in the cold, and your hands freeze, you feel pain as you come indoors and your hands warm up.

 

This is natural, and should actually be an indication that you are doing something right.

 

The challenge is to not overly focus on the pain, but instead to try to further release and relax. If this is difficult, just try to detach from the sensation and try to gently breathe into the area of pain, and after a while feel it melt or evaporate. It will probably not dissappear right away.

 

Good luck-

 

h

 

Later edit:

In response to your question of why the pain dissipates after practice, this is usually due to the fact in our ordinary state of consciousness is quite shallow. In addition the chi that highlights the tense areas returns to its rather dormant state, thus leaving the areas "numb" and out of consciousness.

Edited January 5, 2010 by hagar

[Magda]

Hagar, I need to clarify that this kind of pain is not bearable. It's like touching hot coal, you instinctively push your hand away. If it's tension surfacing, then I don't know how to outwait it. Even though in past I did, it was not like that. I think you're talking about vipassana when you talk of tension going to the surface. That's not what I'm doing, I am actively manipulating how chi should flow, relaxation is not the main goal, neither is enlightenment.

[doc benway]

And how do I know who you are and that you know something? The quantity of forum posts doesn't signify that you know, neither your own belief that you know means that you know. Maybe you just want to talk theoretically, and I will torture myself here by describing everything in detail. You should at least give a hint about what you think, so I could decide whether it's worth it. Sorry but that's the only normal behavior in the forum when you have a problem, I'm not being annoying, I just know that the majority of people who write in various forums use a forum as a place for chatting and don't know anything.

I know nothing.

I post too much.

I chat too much.

I don't think I can help you.

Good luck in your search, Magda.

I sincerely hope you find your answer.

[Taomeow]

I know nothing.

Yeah but I know better than that about you -- do you happen to think "fibromyalgia?"

[doc benway]

-- do you happen to think "fibromyalgia?"

That's a loaded question, I would ask in turn - what is fibromyalgia?

Have you ever read or listened to John Sarno, MD regarding chronic pain?

His work is profound. It's helped me personally and I've shared it with a lot of people, both in my personal and professional life.

[Taomeow]

That's a loaded question, I would ask in turn - what is fibromyalgia?

Have you ever read or listened to John Sarno, MD regarding chronic pain?

His work is profound. It's helped me personally and I've shared it with a lot of people, both in my personal and professional life.

Yes, I've read Sarno's book, but it's "superficial" rather than "profound" where I come from. A diluted offshot of Art Janov's ideas and a poor relative of his practices. Better check out the source book -- "The Primal Scream."

 

Of course "fibromyalgia" is even more superficial, but Magda seems to be unwilling to consider any deeper possibilities, and no one could or should force her to. So I was thinking, if pain is inexplicably triggered by certain types of motion it might be superficial enough of an explanation. Trigger points -- these are pretty specific to fibromyalgia, no? -- I'd check for those.

[doc benway]

Yes, I've read Sarno's book, but it's "superficial" rather than "profound" where I come from. A diluted offshot of Art Janov's ideas and a poor relative of his practices. Better check out the source book -- "The Primal Scream."

 

Of course "fibromyalgia" is even more superficial, but Magda seems to be unwilling to consider any deeper possibilities, and no one could or should force her to. So I was thinking, if pain is inexplicably triggered by certain types of motion it might be superficial enough of an explanation. Trigger points -- these are pretty specific to fibromyalgia, no? -- I'd check for those.

I'll definitely check out The Primal Scream. At the level at which most of my patients function, Sarno's stuff is very profound, both in its simplicity and significance. I'm looking forward to see Janov's ideas. Thanks for that suggestion.

Yup - trigger points are widely focused on in fibromyalgia - for better or worse...

[Magda]

Guys, please do not spam in the topic, there's a PM messaging system for personal talk!

 

As for fibromyalgia, it can't be the case, the points that should hurt don't match mine, and there aren't as many of them either. Neither trigger points can be the case.

[hagar]

Hagar, I need to clarify that this kind of pain is not bearable. It's like touching hot coal, you instinctively push your hand away. If it's tension surfacing, then I don't know how to outwait it. Even though in past I did, it was not like that. I think you're talking about vipassana when you talk of tension going to the surface. That's not what I'm doing, I am actively manipulating how chi should flow, relaxation is not the main goal, neither is enlightenment.

 

It seems what I assumed was your reaction to an opening and relaxing practice, (that qigong usually and ideally should be), is not what is going on.

 

As far as my 15 years of experience with energy work goes, actively manipulating chi flow without a firm and solid method of relaxation, opening and aligning the body is hazardous. Please stop your practice until your symptoms reside. After stopping, please use all means neccessary to find a good teacher. If you need help, I could PM you some suggestions regarding good teachers. If forcefully or actively guided with your consciousness, energy may pool, and may even be forced up wrong pathways, possibly causing health problems.

 

Relaxation should always be a natural byproduct of practice, even when not a goal in itself. It is a sign that you are doing the practice according to correct form and method. Nomatter what system you practice or if you are seeking some particular benefit, forcefully guiding chi with intent should only be done after getting transmission or/and guidance from a good teacher.

 

I did my share of ambitious guiding of chi, and it brought me inflamation that has taken 10 years to heal.

 

I wish you the best on your path

 

h

[z00se]

What is the explanation for pain during practice?

 

 

It's bad stuff comming out of your body. And you're right it can downright be super painful. My back was killing my during a vipassana retreat i was in agony and the more i meditated the more it hurt. I got told by the teacher to just try not to think of it, concentrate on something else. Anything can get sore. Back, neck, head, or anywhere.

 

I get sore eyes and i actually had stuff come out of my eye. I was meditating 9 hrs a day and i felt this thing move slowly from near my eye to my actual eyeball. Then when i moved my eye it was like a piece of sand stuck in the back of my eye down the bottom (below the eyelid) it definately wasn't from external it had come from inside. Slowly my eye was watering lots and after another day or so it all came out, but my eye was bright red bloodshot for a period of 2-3 days - but only the bottom half below the pupil. The whole thing took about 3-4 days to come out.

 

Now i think if it's too painful just don't meditate so much but it will take longer to come out. Once it's out you'll have more relief, but then somewhere else will start hurting. U'll be amazed at how much shit there is to come out.... or at least i was and i'm still nowhere near done

 

Also it's not just vipassana, i'm into healing tao and the same thing happens. Now i start to take the pain as a good sign, it's some recovery. I mean if your not sitting in an awkward position and just have your eyes closed how can your body be hurting from anything YOUR doing? It must be the body doing it to it's self and now i truely believe because of what happened to me before that it is healing it's self.

Edited January 6, 2010 by z00se

[Magda]

As far as my 15 years of experience with energy work goes, actively manipulating chi flow without a firm and solid method of relaxation, opening and aligning the body is hazardous.

Why? My frame of reference may be different, but it exists, as well as chi exists. If manipulating chi would be impossible within any other frame of reference rather than the buddhist one, then it would be a sign that chi doesn't exist on its own right, that it exists only for buddhists. There's no reason to think that energy work can't be used with another religion or thinking which may deal with self-change, too, or may not, unless you simply believe that buddhism is superior.

 

Stopping is simple but useless, searching for teachers is not easy. Although I don't like to talk about it, I live in a country whose people are thought of as poor by Europeans or Americans. My options are limited. Do you think that if I had access to a real teacher I'd be asking for advise in a forum blindly? No knowledgeable people can be found in my city, and to travel distances is not financially possible. In this situation you can either give up or take risks consciously. If something bad eventually happens, so be it, but that doesn't mean that everything should take its own random course either.

[Marblehead]

Why? My frame of reference may be different, but it exists, as well as chi exists. If manipulating chi would be impossible within any other frame of reference rather than the buddhist one, then it would be a sign that chi doesn't exist on its own right, that it exists only for buddhists. There's no reason to think that energy work can't be used with another religion or thinking which may deal with self-change, too, or may not, unless you simply believe that buddhism is superior.

 

Stopping is simple but useless, searching for teachers is not easy. Although I don't like to talk about it, I live in a country whose people are thought of as poor by Europeans or Americans. My options are limited. Do you think that if I had access to a real teacher I'd be asking for advise in a forum blindly? No knowledgeable people can be found in my city, and to travel distances is not financially possible. In this situation you can either give up or take risks consciously. If something bad eventually happens, so be it, but that doesn't mean that everything should take its own random course either.

 

Excellent response. There are many traditions that utilize energy work but all traditions have their own nanes for it. Energy work existed hundreds, if not thousands of years before the Buddha was born. It is not only a Buddhist concept and practice.

 

And then again, a particular practice may work for one person but yet not work at all for another. We each must find our own way of utilizing the energy that is within us and constantly flowing through us.

 

In you case, I would agree that you are left only with the option of asking your questions, considering the responses and then trying what you think might work for you.

 

My strength and energy to you in your search for finding what is 'right' for you.

 

Peace & Love!

[hagar]

Why? My frame of reference may be different, but it exists, as well as chi exists. If manipulating chi would be impossible within any other frame of reference rather than the buddhist one, then it would be a sign that chi doesn't exist on its own right, that it exists only for buddhists. There's no reason to think that energy work can't be used with another religion or thinking which may deal with self-change, too, or may not, unless you simply believe that buddhism is superior.

 

Stopping is simple but useless, searching for teachers is not easy. Although I don't like to talk about it, I live in a country whose people are thought of as poor by Europeans or Americans. My options are limited. Do you think that if I had access to a real teacher I'd be asking for advise in a forum blindly? No knowledgeable people can be found in my city, and to travel distances is not financially possible. In this situation you can either give up or take risks consciously. If something bad eventually happens, so be it, but that doesn't mean that everything should take its own random course either.

 

Ahem... I hope you feel I was trying to help you in your situation through giving you some advice. If this has not come across clearly, I apologize.

 

1. If you need any help in finding teachers, please PM me,

2. Chi exists, yet guiding without relaxation will cause problems

3. Chi follows its own intrinsic intelligence.

4. Relaxing yet aligning is not a Buddhist concept. It goes for all qigong and yoga. Tension and thinking tends to block or stall energy, relaxation and less thought tends to awake energy.

5. When you detach form your mind you enter the qigong "state".

 

If you need any help, please don't hesitate to pm me.

 

Best wishes

h

[Magda]

Ahem... I hope you feel I was trying to help you in your situation through giving you some advice. If this has not come across clearly, I apologize.

No need to apologize, of course I knew you were trying to help! Please do not misread my post as ungrateful complaining, I tried to make sure that it wouldn't be read like that, but failed.

 

2. Chi exists, yet guiding without relaxation will cause problems

Depends on what you call relaxation. For all I know, I do have it, but I never try to relax forcefully. The word relaxation is misleading. It's a change of the mind, a real change, not a forceful relaxation when you pretend that you're relaxed physically and mentally, but in truth are not. Judging by some side-effects it works as it should.

 

I'll use your invitation to PM about teachers.

[hagar]

No need to apologize, of course I knew you were trying to help! Please do not misread my post as ungrateful complaining, I tried to make sure that it wouldn't be read like that, but failed.

Depends on what you call relaxation. For all I know, I do have it, but I never try to relax forcefully. The word relaxation is misleading. It's a change of the mind, a real change, not a forceful relaxation when you pretend that you're relaxed physically and mentally, but in truth are not. Judging by some side-effects it works as it should.

 

I'll use your invitation to PM about teachers.

 

Your perspective on this is refreshing. And you are correct. If you force relaxation, you are not relaxing. You are manipulating. Many who think they are doing relaxation are doing manipulation. They may experience many altered states, and experience many pleasant effects, yet they are not really opening up to the universal energy that is residing within them. So it's really not a change of the mind per se. It is instead a change relating to disindentifying from the mind, which is problem-oriented, and welcoming awareness.

 

Let's set the concept of relaxation aside for a moment. In my experience, opening and aligning is a better term. But we may widen the notion of what principles are at work for the chi to be awakened in its natural and healing form. To clarify, chi is always working, flowing, pooling, vibrating and pulsing. This means that chi is NOT its effect (se above signs). These are indicators of chi at work. Chi as we speak of it is actually the middle of 3 aspects of the essential energy in the body; Jing, Chi, Shen.

Jing is manifest as essential water and other liquids in the body. But Jing is NOT the liquids themselves, but an expression of the essential water. Shen is not a concept, nor a spiritual idea, and is not connected to any belief system, yet it can be experienced. Its manifested as light, space, emptiness, information. But this is a huge topic, and I digress.

 

There are some general principles relating to qigong that induce a strong chi state, and this state is where the best effects of the practice is experienced. These principles may be found in most foundational texts on qigong, and I reccomend Ken Kohen's book "The Way of Qigong" for an good overview of this subject. But the principles may be broken down to these core ideas:

 

- When starting; collect your shen (bring it back to the body) meaning bringing your awareness back into your physical body.

- Relax the mind, let go of thoughts (meaning don't follow them) and just feel your entire body and being

- Step into the form (standing or sitting) and align to the axis of the body and earth (meaning don't slump, let the gravitational force hold you up and connect to the sky and earth). This is a tangible experience. Like balancing a pencil on a table, or spinning a chair on one leg.

- Let go of any vague tension in your body, and let the breath settle naturally. This means let the breath do whatever it feels like.

- "step back"; meaning let go of intention. Feel that through not trying to get anywhere, but just be in you body, there is an effect. Stepping back, the chi may start to work. Chi lives where there is no thought. This is very important to grasp. Its like a law of physics.

- Tune in to the energy inside and outside. This tuning is the vital step. When you feel a connection, its almost like tuning a radio, and when finding a station, you stop. Before this happens, no qigong is really possible.

- "Turn on the light"; meaning keep a light and easy mental attitude, and actually invoke a sense of light coming down into the body.

- Begin with the end. (meaning the end state, relaxed, light, open, easy, graceful, aware) should be there like a slight intention and experience and is the only thing that should be intentionally invoked through your consious mind. More like if you think of home, you know what home feels like.

 

Apologies for rambling.

This is what I could say I have learned in my training with my teacher, and hope this rambling in some way shows what this implies.

 

I wish you the best in your practice

 

h

[Marblehead]

Hi Hagar,

 

Great post and explanation!

 

I do have two comments though.

 

The first is regarding our physical position while meditating. I have found that I get the best results while in a reclined position in my recliner so that there is no center of support pressure on my body.

 

The second is your "Turn on the light"; concept. I get my best results when there is "no" mental attitude held - that is, an absence of "all" mental activity. (True, this is not an easy thing to 'non' accomplish.)

 

Peace & Love!