The Nature of Beliefs

[goldisheavy]

I rarely say something is "a must". This show is a "must watch." The Buddhas are smiling:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdHK7MiiBzU&NR=1 (part 1)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmyRki3RB7o...feature=related (part 2)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA3wjs2FXkk...feature=related (part 3)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltH0oaPkv8I...feature=related (part 4)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tPtrRV2iIN8...feature=related (part 5)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F1xL_w4Hb4...feature=related (part 6)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UrML99qLlBc...feature=related (part 7)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-E7vYYVLUI...feature=related (part 8)

 

Beliefs are powerful. All beings have them. All beings rely on them. A belief in an objective reality is just that -- a belief. A belief in Qi is a belief. A belief that the Universe can be validly studied with the scientific method is a belief too. Even just thinking that there is a Universe to begin with -- that's a belief. Pay attention.

Edited January 2, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

Even just thinking that there is a Universe to begin with -- that's a belief.

 

Yes. I agree. And then we test our beliefs and if they withstand all test we wish to apply to them we oftentimes hold our beliefs as facts.

 

A belief is what most people start out with when they form a hypothisis. The hypothisis is molded into a working model and a theory is formed. Scientifically testing the theory results in either support for the theory and thenis most often considered a fact or, the testing does not support the theory and the theory is thrown out.

 

(I can't watch the videos at the moment as I am recording some music but I will watch them as soon as I can break from the recording.)

 

Peace & Love!

[goldisheavy]

Also this material here is relevant to the theme of beliefs. How is it that we acquire our beliefs? How are our beliefs modified?

 

One key, is that when we are faced with what we perceive to be an expert in the field, we are ready and willing to suspend judgment:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/26/opinion/26Kristof.html

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Fox_effect

 

 

 

Here are some other avenues for persuasion:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Cialdi...of_Influence.22

 

 

These are all the mechanisms of our hoodwinking. This is how we get hoodwinked and this is also how, if we want to, we can hoodwink others.

[Aetherous]

I like what Marblehead said!

 

Thanks goldisheavy, I will watch these later today!

[C T]

Darn! The Buddhas are not smiling on Ireland where Youtubing is concerned!

 

Channel 4 have denied permission for the viewing of these videos here!!!!

What utter BS is that??? How annoying.

Maybe i should express my annoyance in that other thread "Tell me what offends you.."

(Nah just kidding!! )

 

Would have loved to watch them though. Thanks anyway Gold. Nice of you to post them

for everyone's benefit.

[Marblehead]

Hi GiH,

 

All links worked for me. I have no problem with any of them and I agree with you that beliefs are powerful.

 

And oftentimes our beliefs will get in the way of accepting verifiable facts. There are still people who hold to the thought that the Earth is flat and that it is the center of the universe.

 

Whether or not you think that I am closed-mined, I really am very open-minded about my beliefs. But, if a belief does not hold to be useful in my life I discard that belief.

 

This is why I do not hold to any religious beliefs. I simply have not found any that are useful for me. I do not, I repeat, do not, expect anyone to accept my understanding. I simply point out that there are alternatives if one wishes to search for those alternatives.

 

Thanks for sharing those and thanks for the time you spent presenting them for us.

 

Peace & Love!

[ShaktiMama]

Hi GiH,

 

All links worked for me. I have no problem with any of them and I agree with you that beliefs are powerful.

 

And oftentimes our beliefs will get in the way of accepting verifiable facts. There are still people who hold to the thought that the Earth is flat and that it is the center of the universe.

 

Whether or not you think that I am closed-mined, I really am very open-minded about my beliefs. But, if a belief does not hold to be useful in my life I discard that belief.

 

This is why I do not hold to any religious beliefs. I simply have not found any that are useful for me. I do not, I repeat, do not, expect anyone to accept my understanding. I simply point out that there are alternatives if one wishes to search for those alternatives.

 

Thanks for sharing those and thanks for the time you spent presenting them for us.

 

Peace & Love!

 

without having watched the videos...not enough time

 

I believe in those things that serve me... like gravity and chi which exist whether I believe in them or not...

 

Reality is what happens when you no longer believe in it. ( i forgot who said that)

 

your maya may vary

[Magitek]

.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Magitek

[Pero]

The lesson here is not the power of beliefs, but how easily someone can "make" us believe into something.

[Marblehead]

The lesson here is not the power of beliefs, but how easily someone can "make" us believe into something.

 

Yes, that is true. I would suggest that most of the beliefs we hold are those ideas that are convneient for us at the time. As time passes, if we have no reason to question those beliefs, they become a part of what we are. The longer we hold to them the more they become a part of us.

 

Peace & Love!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hi GiH,

 

All links worked for me. I have no problem with any of them and I agree with you that beliefs are powerful.

 

And oftentimes our beliefs will get in the way of accepting verifiable facts. There are still people who hold to the thought that the Earth is flat and that it is the center of the universe.

 

Whether or not you think that I am closed-mined, I really am very open-minded about my beliefs. But, if a belief does not hold to be useful in my life I discard that belief.

 

This is why I do not hold to any religious beliefs. I simply have not found any that are useful for me. I do not, I repeat, do not, expect anyone to accept my understanding. I simply point out that there are alternatives if one wishes to search for those alternatives.

 

Thanks for sharing those and thanks for the time you spent presenting them for us.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

without having watched the videos...not enough time

 

I believe in those things that serve me... like gravity and chi which exist whether I believe in them or not...

 

Reality is what happens when you no longer believe in it. ( i forgot who said that)

 

your maya may vary

 

 

Yes, that is true. I would suggest that most of the beliefs we hold are those ideas that are convneient for us at the time. As time passes, if we have no reason to question those beliefs, they become a part of what we are. The longer we hold to them the more they become a part of us.

 

Peace & Love!

 

How is a belief useful? What criteria does a "useful" belief have? Under what circumstances are beliefs discarded? If truths are beliefs that are tested and found to be fact, and beliefs can be discarded, can "facts" be discarded as well?

 

Perhaps the source of many peoples' problems and worries stems from their beliefs- possibly beliefs that, over time, they have found to be "true" and they cannot discard. Your maya may vary indeed.

 

Haven't watched the videos (yet) but just wanted to throw some stuff out there for thoughts.

Edited January 2, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Magitek]

.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Magitek

[Sunya]

Yes. I agree. And then we test our beliefs and if they withstand all test we wish to apply to them we oftentimes hold our beliefs as facts.

 

A belief is what most people start out with when they form a hypothisis. The hypothisis is molded into a working model and a theory is formed. Scientifically testing the theory results in either support for the theory and thenis most often considered a fact or, the testing does not support the theory and the theory is thrown out.

 

(I can't watch the videos at the moment as I am recording some music but I will watch them as soon as I can break from the recording.)

 

Peace & Love!

 

so you're saying it's actually possible to know something? what does it mean to know? we have varying grades of beliefs, some more credible (such as me typing this) and some less (the world is made of cheese). the most credible beliefs such as an objective world existing require you to believe that the senses are accurate, that the brain is accurate, and so forth. there's no way to accurately test a belief that lies outside the limited scope of the human faculty. for you to know that a tree exists you would have to fly out of your brain, through your optic nerve, out into the world, and become the tree, unless you can do that then the existence of a tree requires belief.. though with very credible evidence pointing to it. It is very far fetched to conclude that a 'fact' exists

 

imagine a court of law, you're the judge and you're offered evidence about the defendant charged with a crime. since you, the judge, were not actually there to witness everything, you have no way of knowing of the defendant is guilty but what you have is evidence that can convince you one way or another, either way you have to believe in the evidential justification.

 

Belief is having an emotionally affirmative psychological position toward a given statement. As a judge, you never have all the evidence, but you choose based on the given evidence how justified you are in believing the 'facts' and whether or not the statement is correct objectively, but always, always, there are presuppositions and assumptions, did I stress always? yep, always.

Edited January 2, 2010 by mikaelz

[goldisheavy]

Darn! The Buddhas are not smiling on Ireland where Youtubing is concerned!

 

Channel 4 have denied permission for the viewing of these videos here!!!!

What utter BS is that??? How annoying.

Maybe i should express my annoyance in that other thread "Tell me what offends you.."

(Nah just kidding!! )

 

Would have loved to watch them though. Thanks anyway Gold. Nice of you to post them

for everyone's benefit.

 

That won't do at all.

 

CowTao, please check out

 

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=0d3d8b8...c9d0a36e998cf81

 

You can download the 8 files there and use VLC to view them.

[goldisheavy]

OK I watched it through the youtube proxy

 

http://www.youtubegir.org/ <--- useful

It is called "Messiah". I've seen it already. Its the best show hes dones in my eyes.

 

Yea, I agree about this being the best of his shows. This should be required watching in every high school and college.

 

The only thing that could be better is if Derren also targeted more established beliefs and not just the New Age ones. I'd love to see Derren pose as a Ph.D. at a conference somewhere and get the same effect. In fact, this was already done by some psychologists in one of the links I posted in this thread, but I can imagine Derren would do a much better job at it, given his skills.

 

so you're saying it's actually possible to know something? what does it mean to know? we have varying grades of beliefs, some more credible (such as me typing this) and some less (the world is made of cheese). the most credible beliefs such as an objective world existing require you to believe that the senses are accurate, that the brain is accurate, and so forth. there's no way to accurately test a belief that lies outside the limited scope of the human faculty. for you to know that a tree exists you would have to fly out of your brain, through your optic nerve, out into the world, and become the tree, unless you can do that then the existence of a tree requires belief.. though with very credible evidence pointing to it. It is very far fetched to conclude that a 'fact' exists

 

imagine a court of law, you're the judge and you're offered evidence about the defendant charged with a crime. since you, the judge, were not actually there to witness everything, you have no way of knowing of the defendant is guilty but what you have is evidence that can convince you one way or another, either way you have to believe in the evidential justification.

 

Belief is having an emotionally affirmative psychological position toward a given statement. As a judge, you never have all the evidence, but you choose based on the given evidence how justified you are in believing the 'facts' and whether or not the statement is correct objectively, but always, always, there are presuppositions and assumptions, did I stress always? yep, always.

 

I love this text here mikaelz! Good stuff!

 

I enjoy your definition of belief too, although I don't think it is the most accurate one. I would define belief as that which structures consciousness. So a belief is a little deeper than an affirmative psychological position toward a given statement, but your way of defining belief is usefully (and incompletely) informative.

Edited January 2, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Hi GiH,

 

All links worked for me. I have no problem with any of them and I agree with you that beliefs are powerful.

 

And oftentimes our beliefs will get in the way of accepting verifiable facts.

 

Facts, eh? I don't think you understand. I like how mikaelz addressed your ideas about facts, so I don't want to repeat anything he said.

 

There are still people who hold to the thought that the Earth is flat and that it is the center of the universe.

 

It's worse than that. The fact that the Earth is flat is obvious. It takes a lot of technology or special experiments or some extremely careful and unprejudiced observation at an ocean shore, to demonstrate otherwise. The fact that the Earth is the center of the universe is also obvious. The fly in the ointment were the stars that wondered around the sky instead of rotating nicely around the Earth. They were called "the wanderers" or "planetas". If people didn't notice the subtle wandering planetas, there would be nothing to contradict the fact that the Earth is the center of the Universe. Those weren't just beliefs, see? They were facts. You could observe them and verify them too. It took special instruments (called telescopes) and super-careful observation to find, barely, any proof to the contrary.

 

Whether or not you think that I am closed-mined, I really am very open-minded about my beliefs. But, if a belief does not hold to be useful in my life I discard that belief.

 

That's better than what a lot of people have. At least you seem to be aware that you can change your fundamental beliefs about reality. You're unlikely to do so, because you seem to be enjoying your life as is. I do wonder what are you doing here on tbums? Your beliefs do not match the spirit of this forum, because you don't have spiritual beliefs.

 

This is why I do not hold to any religious beliefs. I simply have not found any that are useful for me. I do not, I repeat, do not, expect anyone to accept my understanding. I simply point out that there are alternatives if one wishes to search for those alternatives.

 

Search? Most people are physicalists already. Even those who claim to be religious. You don't need to search anything to believe as you do, because your beliefs are the currently dominant ones in the world.

 

Thanks for sharing those and thanks for the time you spent presenting them for us.

 

Peace & Love!

 

You're welcome.

Edited January 2, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Desert Eagle]

im glad that Derren has good moral values. Imagine what he could do if he wanted to scam people and exploit them. Worse, I just cant think about how many ppl are there in the world with Derren's grasp of the human psyche and are taking advantage of people.

 

what if Derren has real occult powers and agenda?

Edited January 3, 2010 by Desert Eagle

[goldisheavy]

what if Derren has real occult powers and agenda?

 

Well, hypnosis is a real power. All of life can be thought of as one giant hypnosis session. The difference between a hypnotist and a normal person is that a normal person does not take conscious control of the hypnotic process. So a hypnotist is practicing and experiencing lucid hypnosis (like lucid dreaming), while a normal person is practicing and experiencing automatic run-away hypnosis (like regular dreaming).

 

Derren seems to have some pretty strong beliefs in physicalism, and this is what limits his power. This is also why Derren is so modest about his powers and doesn't think they are special (or at least, he's smart to talk like that on TV, so as not to make people envious).

 

So Derren is not exactly lucid in his hypnosis, but he's more lucid than a non-hypnotist. Derren would be completely lucid if he didn't have an unconscious belief in physicalism. I can't say for 100% sure that Derren believes in physicalism, but based on his manner, I give myself a 90% chance of being right on this one.

Edited January 3, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Magitek]

..

Edited January 29, 2010 by Magitek

[goldisheavy]

Actually I think the want for me to disturb others dreams was an insecurity in my own reality. People dream what they want.

 

I think for me it is a sense of loneliness. I want others like me in my dream. I don't necessarily want everyone to be like me. I will be happy if there is even 1% of people like me, but if everyone was like me, that would be fine too.

 

In any case, I like what you said there. It's something for me to chew on.

 

Another analogy is the stories of astral projectors who would talk to people who are unconscious in the astral realm... They would reply to most their questions rather sensibly but when told to wake up it would not be registered. "I am awake, how absurd". Likewise if something is said that is out of the norm the person ignores it... LOL I just got into one of Derrens techniques without realising it!

 

This is a well known phenomenon of hypnotism. Memories seem to be attached to the states of mind. So for example, if you are hypnotized and are told something, you may not remember what you have been told upon exiting hypnosis. However! If you are re-hypnotized, you can remember what you were told in the previous hypnosis session. Something like that. Another possible explanation is that the process of consciousness obscures the hypnotic memory upon exit from hypnosis (as opposed to saying that the memory is attached to some particular state).

 

HUGE LIMITATION or maybe its a bluff (lol). Actually Derren is not as powerful as you think. Watch his lecture to the magical society and he explains SOME of his techniques.

 

He fakes crowd responses. I have heard he often repeatedly rejects a person then gets another one who is more suggestable. Also, sometimes people WANT TO play the game. For instance I came across a Pick Up Artist(PUA) who would use seduction hypnosis and the girl may go along with it simply because she wants a way to have sex without feeling slutty(low social rank) or whatever. Also how can you say no to something that isn't explicitely said ...

 

I am not a huge fan of PUAs. I think some of the things they say are valid, but overall they seem to be mentally disabled to me. To make a science out of picking up women is like making a science out of wearing socks. Something that should be easy and natural is turned into a science. PUAs would do well to remember that the whole enterprise started by modeling successful guys, and the very models for the PUA process themselves know nothing of PUA. But PUAs do not try to emulate that natural ignorance. They become over-self-conscious and their behavior becomes artificial as it is restricted by a myriad of complex rules and PUA suppositions. Another thing I find problematic is that according to PUAs women are all the same, and are thus subject to accurate modeling. I think that nothing could be further from truth. Even non-human animals are individualistic, and what to say of humans who, more than any species I know, spread over the entire spectrum of opinions, mentalities, attitudes and behaviors, from one extreme to another (and are subject to change on top of that).

 

Derren might not be Milton Erickson, or it might be that he's in a hurry to get results. Maybe he could do better if he wasn't under a deadline for a show. In any case, I agree that he's not that powerful, but I still respect his level of skill. For some reason I tend to respect hypnotists. I guess that's because I was hypnotized once and even though I snapped out of it, it wasn't easy to snap out. It felt exactly like trying to wake up from a dream I didn't like (which is an ability I have and use from time to time if I am not pleased with some dream).

 

It is fascinating but there is something that is quite sinister about it. I think the problem could be that whatever sorcery you play on others is reflected back onto you. Just an idea.

 

People like magic and they want it to work. People like people and they like to encourage them..... If there is a performer on stage often the crowd will try to help him. "yes I was thinking that", they say unconsciously.

 

Well, whether or not you think there is something sinister about it depends on your beliefs about people. Are people separate? Do people have a right to their individuality? If you modify someone's behavior or appearance, are you hurting anyone or anything? In other words, is there a victim? Etc... It all depends on your views on these matters. Another thing to consider is... are we not doing it already? Are we not already all hypnotizing and modifying each other ad infinitum?

 

People lie ALL THE TIME to keep the flow.

 

Yup.

Edited January 3, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Moonbar]

Derren Brown is an amazing man, he can duplicate anything psychic or supernatural, he will tell you hes just a performer.

 

Ive read his book & seen one of his shows in person, when you watch his various tv shows you think "It must be heavily edited & when something dosnt work they just cut it" - But no everything works first time-every time, well it did at the 2hr show i saw.

 

In his book he says in his younger days he experienced chi flow from someone & it amazed him! soon after he quickly rationalised it & duplicated it with hypnosis - & concluded its an effect produced in the mind ... thats just him.

 

If anyone is interested there is a great clip on Youtube of him with a Wingchun master & he shows the master his version of the 1 inch punch - good to watch

[goldisheavy]

In his book he says in his younger days he experienced chi flow from someone & it amazed him! soon after he quickly rationalised it & duplicated it with hypnosis - & concluded its an effect produced in the mind ... thats just him.

 

Poor Derren. He's very good with hypnosis, but his contemplation skills needs more work. What's happening to Derren is a cruel mix of being right and wrong at the same time. First, the phenomena of chi are indeed just mind. That's not wrong per se. What's wrong is that Derren seems to differentiate mind from matter and he seems to hold to the doctrine of physicalism. This is what's confusing and limiting him.

 

To the physicalist the mind is mostly a victim of (what looks like) the objective reality and not the master of it. Blah blah blah.... I am getting tired explaining this over and over. I guess I should be happy that I understand this myself, but it would be nice if more people could understand what I understand.

 

If anyone is interested there is a great clip on Youtube of him with a Wingchun master & he shows the master his version of the 1 inch punch - good to watch

 

I saw that one. That's a great clip and I would recommend all the internal arts practitioners watch it.

 

I think that Derren might subtly entertain the idea, even if he doesn't say it out loud, that he's kind of undermining the spiritual beliefs. I see the reverse. Someone like Derren, perhaps unwittingly, is laying down the groundwork for understanding of the spiritual reality of life. Heheheh Good, eh? I am pleased with Derren's impact.

[Marblehead]

How is a belief useful? What criteria does a "useful" belief have? Under what circumstances are beliefs discarded? If truths are beliefs that are tested and found to be fact, and beliefs can be discarded, can "facts" be discarded as well?

 

Perhaps the source of many peoples' problems and worries stems from their beliefs- possibly beliefs that, over time, they have found to be "true" and they cannot discard. Your maya may vary indeed.

 

Haven't watched the videos (yet) but just wanted to throw some stuff out there for thoughts.

 

It is my understand (belief) that a belief is useful if it affords peace and contentment (and yes, happiness) into one's life. A belief should be discarded, IMO, if it does not bring those things. Also, I think it would be wise to discard a belief that is not consistent with objective reality. (Yes, I had to say that.)

 

So, yes, if our belief is disproven by facts then it should, but not necessarily must, be discarded. That is why I am tolerant of religions. Most people who follow the dogma of religion really do so in order to find peace and contentment in their life.

 

But I agree that if a belief causes more problems than it affords comfort then it would be wise to discard that belief.

 

And to your word "true", truth, IMO, is subjective. What is "true" for you may well be "false" for me. I think I have expressed that quite well on this forum.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. That first question is a trick question, right?

 

so you're saying it's actually possible to know something?

 

Absolutely? Of course not. Relatively? Absolutely.

 

what does it mean to know?

 

To understand it well enough so that we can rely on it to be true 99.9~% of the time.

 

we have varying grades of beliefs, some more credible (such as me typing this) and some less (the world is made of cheese). the most credible beliefs such as an objective world existing require you to believe that the senses are accurate, that the brain is accurate, and so forth. there's no way to accurately test a belief that lies outside the limited scope of the human faculty. for you to know that a tree exists you would have to fly out of your brain, through your optic nerve, out into the world, and become the tree, unless you can do that then the existence of a tree requires belief.. though with very credible evidence pointing to it. It is very far fetched to conclude that a 'fact' exists

 

As pointed out above, my understanding that there is an objective universe has been proven to be true at least 99.9~% of the times I have questioned it therefore I conclude that it does, in fact, exist.

 

imagine a court of law, you're the judge and you're offered evidence about the defendant charged with a crime. since you, the judge, were not actually there to witness everything, you have no way of knowing of the defendant is guilty but what you have is evidence that can convince you one way or another, either way you have to believe in the evidential justification.

 

Different conditions and they do not apply. Regarding an objective universe, I am here in it and a part of it. I have first hand evidence. I do not need rely on the words and testamony of anyone else.

 

Belief is having an emotionally affirmative psychological position toward a given statement. As a judge, you never have all the evidence, but you choose based on the given evidence how justified you are in believing the 'facts' and whether or not the statement is correct objectively, but always, always, there are presuppositions and assumptions, did I stress always? yep, always.

 

No. I can believe a fact to be true. It is my belief that the world is round (mostly). It has been proven many times over that it is round (mostly) during the past 2500 years. BTW, that is longer than I have lived so those proofs were had prior to my existence.

 

There are scientific processes for testing the validity of a theory. If a theory has been tested numerous times and has always presented the exact same results it can be safely accepted as a "fact". I live my life, in the most part, based on "facts" that I have proven on my own and from those I acknowledge as being reliable sources.

 

Yes, I agree that many beliefs psychological implications. There are some beliefs some people hold to that are totally false but yet they continue to hold to them for psychological reasons. I cannot deny them that because there is a possiblity that their entire subjective world would fall apart if they discarded their beliefs.

 

Yep. You stressed "always". I am satisfied with 99.9~%. I do maintain a fair amout of flexibility.

 

Peace & Love!

[Magitek]

..

Edited January 29, 2010 by Magitek