WHAT DO YOU THINK?

[enouch]

Many internal arts masters such as Wang Shu Jinn could break opponents spines by bouncing them as yo-yo's with his belly.He could also emit fa-jing and commonly took on the toughest young men well into his eighties.The question is do you think these true masters with authentic neigong could hold there own against a Randy Couture or Chuck Liddell? Ya-mu, Santiago,unnamed teacher in China ''in the know'' any opinions?

 

Also not being trained in internal arts[i do have a dvd with the tai-qi form] but so-called hard external arts I have a bias towards reality based fighting, yet I relentlessly train qi-gung forms since they help me recover from weight lifting. Am I correct in assuming my prowess with hard styles is enhanced by incorporating the qi-gung forms, if all my fighting mechanics are right and exact? My working reality is based on the logic if it helps with weight lifting why not fighting as well?

[enouch]

Many internal arts masters such as Wang Shu Jinn could break opponents spines by bouncing them as yo-yo's with his belly.He could also emit fa-jing and commonly took on the toughest young men well into his eighties.The question is do you think these true masters with authentic neigong could hold there own against a Randy Couture or Chuck Liddell? Ya-mu, Santiago,unnamed teacher in China ''in the know'' any opinions?

 

Also not being trained in internal arts[i do have a dvd with the tai-qi form] but so-called hard external arts I have a bias towards reality based fighting, yet I relentlessly train qi-gung forms since they help me recover from weight lifting. Am I correct in assuming my prowess with hard styles is enhanced by incorporating the qi-gung forms, if all my fighting mechanics are right and exact? My working reality is based on the logic if it helps with weight lifting why not fighting as well?

 

 

No one has a thought...I did mean for anyone to respond.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I would be very interested to see a "real" internal martial arts master go up against an MMA fighter.

 

Oh, wait, that's right, it's the MMA fighter who has to find the "real" master and see it for himself..... "outside" the ring and "without the rules".....

 

No offense, but if you are just going to hit someone with your belly, does it matter if it's in a ring or on the street?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And as a disclaimer, I have the utmost respect for high level martial artists, no matter what their background. I've been involved in martial arts nearly my entire life... but I find that you really need to be able to laugh at yourself, and seriously, some of the things that come up in martial arts discussion are..... laughable....

Edited January 3, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[mjjbecker]

This has already been discussed to death. You want answers? Go out and do the leg work, meet the people and do the training. The endless fantasising so beloved of internet forums is totally and utterly pointless.

[agharta]

This has already been discussed to death. You want answers? Go out and do the leg work, meet the people and do the training. The endless fantasising so beloved of internet forums is totally and utterly pointless.

 

Absolutely.

 

A high-level internal master could easily destroy each and every MMA fighter in the ring today. Don't believe me? Then I refer you to mjjbecker's post, above.

[Mokona]

I think that it is very easy to stand in at least one Chi Kung position a day. I'm going for 12 minutes in horse stance today. Then I'm going to listen to low music and use Yoga Nidra, now that I remember what to do and no longer need to listen to the CD, which I've lost. I may even send Reiki to myself. I think that bouncing it off a wall and up my feet is a good idea. It works the 'muscles' for sending.

[enouch]

Absolutely.

 

A high-level internal master could easily destroy each and every MMA fighter in the ring today. Don't believe me? Then I refer you to mjjbecker's post, above.

What about the second question regarding the efficacy of using qi-gung forms to supplement hard styles as opposed to learning from scratch a new[internal] system?

 

 

2.

This has already been discussed to death. You want answers? Go out and do the leg work, meet the people and do the training. The endless fantasising so beloved of internet forums is totally and utterly pointless.

 

What about the second question regarding the efficacy of using qi-gung forms to supplement hard styles as opposed to learning from scratch a new[internal] system?

[mjjbecker]

Absolutely.

 

A high-level internal master could easily destroy each and every MMA fighter in the ring today. Don't believe me? Then I refer you to mjjbecker's post, above.

 

I made no such statement and don't consider myself any such authority to make such a one. What I said I thought was fairly clear. What a person experiences for themself counts. Speculation does not. What this 'master' or that 'champion' can, or cannot do, is nowhere near as important as what the individual can do.

 

The martial arts world is rife with students who presume invincibilty by proxy. They study this method, studied under that master, ergo they must also be magically endowed with the same powers. Then someone comes along and smacks them in the mouth. I've seen this time and time again, from silat to systema to ninjutsu to the internal arts. People living in their little fantasy worlds of invincible systems and masters.

 

ALL this kind of 'what if' speculation is meaningless. The only thing that has any meaning is what is REAL, what actually happens, when it happens. Fantasy is simply FICTION, not real. Experience is king.

 

Enouch. Seriously. If you followed up a fraction of the links and information posted on this forum already, you would know the answer to that question. There is no shortage of information out there. Go and do the work yourself. Stop and think, and spend sometime doing that, rather than just posting up endless new threads. The answers you find for yourself are infinitely more valuable than the answers people give to you.

[goldisheavy]

Absolutely.

 

A high-level internal master could easily destroy each and every MMA fighter in the ring today. Don't believe me? Then I refer you to mjjbecker's post, above.

 

Aha, this is exactly the kind of thought process the leads to the creation of something like bullshido.net. There are some people who love nothing more than to seek out internal artists and to pound their heads in, even without rules, on the street.

 

Ask any high level martial artist, and if they are even slightly famous (or I should say notorious instead of famous), they get attacked, either unprovoked or by a request for a duel, by all kinds of challengers. The more loud you are about your level of attainment, the more likely someone is to show up and try to prove you wrong. And you know what? Sometimes that "someone" succeeds, or even if you beat that someone, you might go home with a broken nose too, which is not all that great either.

Edited January 3, 2010 by goldisheavy

[enouch]

I made no such statement and don't consider myself any such authority to make such a one. What I said I thought was fairly clear. What a person experiences for themself counts. Speculation does not. What this 'master' or that 'champion' can, or cannot do, is nowhere near as important as what the individual can do.

 

The martial arts world is rife with students who presume invincibilty by proxy. They study this method, studied under that master, ergo they must also be magically endowed with the same powers. Then someone comes along and smacks them in the mouth. I've seen this time and time again, from silat to systema to ninjutsu to the internal arts. People living in their little fantasy worlds of invincible systems and masters.

 

ALL this kind of 'what if' speculation is meaningless. The only thing that has any meaning is what is REAL, what actually happens, when it happens. Fantasy is simply FICTION, not real. Experience is king.

 

Enouch. Seriously. If you followed up a fraction of the links and information posted on this forum already, you would know the answer to that question. There is no shortage of information out there. Go and do the work yourself. Stop and think, and spend sometime doing that, rather than just posting up endless new threads. The answers you find for yourself are infinitely more valuable than the answers people give to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Enouch. Seriously. If you followed up a fraction of the links and information posted on this forum already, you would know the answer to that question. There is no shortage of information out there. Go and do the work yourself. Stop and think, and spend sometime doing that, rather than just posting up endless new threads. The answers you find for yourself are infinitely more valuable than the answers people give to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah after I wrote it I kinda realized it was pointless.After all this is a forum on which we discuss fa-jing, people jumping over houses,putting Mike Tyson under, also the beneficial health effects of qi-gung.If it works for those things why not fighting? It's just before embarking onto a path[internal arts] I'd like some certainty about the results of said path, especially when the internal arts can take years to have mastery.And since I already know how to fight wasting time on developing chi fighting effects which might not work on strangers is losing time and delusional.

 

Experience is king yet it doesn't always have to be your experience, after all I don't need to contract hiv to know its treadful effects.Parents,teachers give others the benefit of their wisdom based on experience yet somtimes a child will not listen only to realize later that the parent was correct.A path of experience based upon definite results, like modern western disciplines is what I seek. I know there is no ultimate fighting art it all depends on circumstance/time-ha! maybe the chi -fighting effect is the same. If so, given the nature of the claim it can only be proven subjectively and demonstrated objectively.SoI get your point.The question on a internal arts forum would be tai-chi versus bagua! Just kidding.

 

By the way, o greater font of knowledge my threads aren't endless...actually only 25-30!

[everseeking]

here's my 2 cents--

 

On Page 18 of Kung Fu Tai Chi's Jan/Feb issue, some MMA guy's quote is in bold print, saying-" MMA Doesn't ask martial artist to accept their inferiority but invites them to join in and contribute."

 

THAT is the kind of SHIT that makes me dislike MMA. That and all the fight's I've seen. Go to the ground and see what happens when the friends of the guy you are fighting start kicking you in the head. Being able to win a match in the ring is a skill, but people don't wear padded gloves when they attack you, and there wont be a ref around.

 

Contrast that with the words of Grandmaster Al Novak (if you don't know who he is, look him up)

 

"...Mixed martial arts is good. I like to watch it, but I'm a stand up man fighter. I can't see them laying on the ground for 15 minutes, beat the hell out of the guy and not getting hurt, you know what I mean? I don't care for the mat stuff. It's entertainment, but that's as far as it goes, as far as I'm concerned."

 

 

Grandmaster Novak is a true living legend, look him up. I'll take his opinion on the matter as solid :-)

[Sloppy Zhang]

A high-level internal master could easily destroy each and every MMA fighter in the ring today.

 

So why don't they? (choose however many that apply, when asked to provide your own answer, use the blank space provided)

 

a) Because they don't practice martial arts to prove they are better than everyone else

b ) Because the ring is not "real life"

c) Because they don't want the publicity and would rather practice in secret, keeping the teachings to a few students of proven moral character

d) Because the modern world couldn't handle the shock of having everything they believed about martial arts pulled out from under them

e) An original answer that you provide that hasn't been said a million times

 

here's my 2 cents--

 

On Page 18 of Kung Fu Tai Chi's Jan/Feb issue, some MMA guy's quote is in bold print, saying-" MMA Doesn't ask martial artist to accept their inferiority but invites them to join in and contribute."

 

THAT is the kind of SHIT that makes me dislike MMA. That and all the fight's I've seen. Go to the ground and see what happens when the friends of the guy you are fighting start kicking you in the head. Being able to win a match in the ring is a skill, but people don't wear padded gloves when they attack you, and there wont be a ref around.

 

I'm sorry.... but WHAT?

 

What part of "invites them to join in and contribute" makes you NOT like that? If you are a fighter, claim to know how to fight, and claim to be TEACHING how to fight (and possibly save yourself or someone else's life), you should be able TO FIGHT.

 

Again, all the classic martial arts masters, internal or external, PROVED they had the goods. Xingyi, Taichi, Bagua, ALL of these guys got up either in the ring or on the leitai and PROVED they could fight. In some instances they beat the shit out of the guy. In some situations they bounced them gently away, or put them down with a minimal amount of pain.

 

If a high level guy is really so "high level", it shouldn't matter what the rules are, and someone who has cultivated that "martial virtue" wouldn't be killing someone in the ring even if they had to.

 

Contrast that with the words of Grandmaster Al Novak (if you don't know who he is, look him up)

 

"...Mixed martial arts is good. I like to watch it, but I'm a stand up man fighter. I can't see them laying on the ground for 15 minutes, beat the hell out of the guy and not getting hurt, you know what I mean? I don't care for the mat stuff. It's entertainment, but that's as far as it goes, as far as I'm concerned."

Grandmaster Novak is a true living legend, look him up. I'll take his opinion on the matter as solid :-)

 

Not every fight goes to the ground (in MMA or in real life). Part of having a really good stand up game is knowing how to NOT be taken down. Watch some of Anderson Silva's fights. Yes, he's a great ground fighter in his own right, but in fights when he wants to stand and use muay thai, after guys start taking hits they try to take Silva down, and it's nearly impossible to do, and even if they do it he stands back up very quickly.

 

Plenty of "stand up" fighters go into UFC and get taken down and have the shit beat out of them. And part of being a good fighter is being able to judge the situation. Just because you take someone down doesn't mean you are going to land on broken glass and get hit in the back with a baseball bat by his 16 friends..... I've taken guys down on the "street", and I've been taken down on the "street", and proceeded to choke them out accordingly, rather than flail about like some of the "stand up fighters" that laugh at MMA.

Edited January 3, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[effilang]

IMO a real master of the internal arts would probably toss about an MMA fighter like a puppet, without even touching him.

 

I can only imagine that it would be even easier to redirect so much brute force than it would be a more subtle energy and precise internal force.

 

Just look at some videos of master healers. They toss about people like rag dolls, make their body parts move from a distance. Some of them are not even martial artists, i can only imagine how devastating someone with such internal knowledge would be if their entire discipline was aimed at martial application.

 

In fact MMA for eg. is one of the Martial Arts like most MAs, that concentrates on disrupting the body's subtle internal processes by external force. The process of the brain, of the nerves, of the liver, eyes etc., but through brute force. That being said it is probably safe to say that an internal Martial Arts master would be a more formidable opponent, as long as he doesn't get knocked out accidentally.

 

Edited January 3, 2010 by effilang

[Sloppy Zhang]

IMO a real master of the internal arts would probably toss about an MMA fighter like a puppet, without even touching him.

 

I can only imagine that it would be even easier to redirect so much brute force than it would be a more subtle energy and precise internal force.

 

Again I ask: so why don't they?

 

Just look at some videos of master healers. They toss about people like rag dolls, make their body parts move from a distance. Some of them are not even martial artists, i can only imagine how devastating someone with such internal knowledge would be if their entire discipline was aimed at martial application.

 

 

Yeah, there are guys who do that on video, then get the crap beat out of them.

 

And, of course, they come up with all manner of explanations for WHY, usually along the lines of:

 

"Well when a student wants healing they deliberately open themselves up, but when you fight someone they are not going to be open, so you have to put in more energy to make them stop, which can hurt them so instead I just got punched in the face."

 

Sticking with the "qi energy model", I have my own theory:

 

Qi follows intent, and MMAists and other high level external martial artists, even if they don't believe in qi, per se, have put a lot of time and effort into working out and getting strong. They have very developed willpower. So when they want to put someone down, they focus all of that into putting you down, and all the qi goes behind it. Which means an IMA master has to match that with their own "qi", and then do even better.

 

Of course, I could be completely wrong. A high level IMA master can be so far beyond any external MAist......... but if that's the case, again, I ask, why don't they fight? If all they are going to do is bounce them away, block it with their large qi belly, or neutralize all their attacks, or redirect the force so the person defeats themselves, why don't they do it? If their tactics would the the same (or highly similar), whether they are in a "ring" or on the "streets", why don't they step into the right? Who cares if it's a padded fist instead of a normal one, who cares if there isn't broken glass on the ground or 5 other people waiting in the shadows to stab you in the back the moment you execute a takedown? A high level IMAist would never do something so stupid as going to the ground anyway....

 

Let's also not forget the old Chinese saying that Yang Jwing Ming puts in all of his books, "external arts flow from external to internal, internal arts flow from internal to external", so a high level teacher from either one is going to be teaching the same stuff......

Edited January 3, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Ya Mu]

IMO practice your qigong for health and awareness. Practice whatever MA you like.

What I have seen is that, for the most part, hard styles are for the young until they get the broken bones, etc. then many switch to internal styles.

[goldisheavy]

It's just before embarking onto a path[internal arts] I'd like some certainty about the results of said path, especially when the internal arts can take years to have mastery. And since I already know how to fight wasting time on developing chi fighting effects which might not work on strangers is losing time and delusional.

 

Experience is king yet it doesn't always have to be your experience, after all I don't need to contract hiv to know its treadful effects.

 

I think you make some good points there.

 

I think that if kicking ass is what you want, forget qi. Just study Muay Thai or MMA, and be done with it. I think after practicing Muay Thai hardly anyone will want to take you on. It's perfect for kicking ass.

 

Consider this. Even if qi is real, all the people that practice it say it takes years to get the effects. Supposedly after you invest many years into it, it begins to overtake external arts. Also consider this. In traditional Chinese training, even the internal styles had tons, tons of external stuff. It was customary to master the external arts before beginning full time concentration on qi. I think the whole qi is soft-skills-only thing has been a recent trend. At least I think it's pretty clear that in Shaolin, qi was taught after you could already kick ass and not before.

 

Qi works by modifying your mind state at a very deep level. For it to work, you have to allow it to change your reality. And this is too much for a lot of people. Imagine the universe as you know it ending? Can you take it? Is it worth it??? Just to kick ass?? Seems like it's not worth it just for ass kicking.

 

If you study qi gong for health benefits, I think you can get results much faster than for the martial purpose.

 

If you study qi gong to enlighten yourself in a profound way, then the long time it takes is not a deterrent and then the result becomes worth both the time investment and the loss of the old beliefs and the loss of the old reality.

 

If all you want is some righteous ass whooping, it's a waste of time. Think practically. Even if everything people say about qi is true, do you need it in your arsenal? How many people use it today? It's a tiny, tiny minority! What are the chances you will need to whoop one of the qi-using people? I say the chances are practically zero. So even if knowing how to manipulate qi made one God, as long as only very few people know it, you don't need to escalate the arms race on your side. Now, if 50% knew it and constantly used it to very lethal effect, then you simply couldn't afford to be without that weapon. Then and only then you'd need to upgrade your arsenal, from a practical point of view. Even if qi makes people into Gods, as long as you are very unlikely to run into a qi-user, you don't need it from an ass whooping standpoint.

 

See, it's simple. I think most people who are into qi, are not into it for martial benefits as the primary reason.

[Sloppy Zhang]

IMO practice your qigong for health and awareness. Practice whatever MA you like.

What I have seen is that, for the most part, hard styles are for the young until they get the broken bones, etc. then many switch to internal styles.

 

What I have seen is that there is refined movement at higher levels of external arts- so that it becomes just as subtle as any internal martial arts.

 

There are very old judo guys, for example, that throw young guys like it's nothing. The young guys can't take 'em down, and when the young guy says, "screw it, I'm just gonna plow through this guy, I don't need to only use the techniques I've been taught here" (and you can see that expression in the way they move), the old guy sends them flying.

 

People slam aikido and about how it is lame, but I've seen judo guys use aikido like moves against resisting opponents who are 30-40 years younger and weigh nearly 100 lbs more.

 

There are boxers, even old retired boxers, that don't even need to block punches, they just use footwork and body positioning that looks eerily like bagua.

 

So, you know, it really makes you wonder. Well, it at least makes me wonder.

 

Which is also why I'd really like some IMAists to step up. Because, you know, the external arts can develop some pretty amazing skills, and if the IMAists can top even that, well.....

Edited January 3, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[goldisheavy]

Qi follows intent, and MMAists and other high level external martial artists, even if they don't believe in qi, per se, have put a lot of time and effort into working out and getting strong. They have very developed willpower. So when they want to put someone down, they focus all of that into putting you down, and all the qi goes behind it. Which means an IMA master has to match that with their own "qi", and then do even better.

 

I think this is exactly right. Precisely. Since anyone who exercises and spars, especially for many years, has demonstrated in a big way their intent and resolve. A qi-user would have a lot on their plate when facing someone who has put so much focus and tenacity into their practice of external martial arts. Qi is not some magic pixie dust. The real magic pixie dust is intent, and unfortunately or fortunately, the hard stylist has equal access to intent! The qi model is at best a refinement of what intent can accomplish, and that refinement only works after you allow your mind to accept a different reality of how the world works, which is not a realistic or reasonable choice for a lot of people. Lots of people like their reality just as it is and are not willing to change it. Especially not just to kick more ass -- that's a shallow motivation and is insufficient for changing the flavor of one's reality.

 

There is another problem too. This problem is connected with intent. Since hard stylists don't need to alter their model of reality to get results, their intent is more honest right from the beginning.

 

A qi-user is first somewhat dishonest to himself/herself. Because when you first begin practicing qi, you may not believe that reality can work in a different way, that it can have another side to it. So the intent is explorative at best, or dishonest at the worst. The intent is not as purely focused on ass kicking as in the hard style, because part of the intent is dissipated with doubts about the reality of qi and so on. In time all that can be overcome and intent can become pure and very honest once again, but it might takes 30 years, and it's uncertain. It's predicated upon a total inner change.

Edited January 3, 2010 by goldisheavy

[effilang]

Again I ask: so why don't they?

 

Because i think that sort of internal power comes through the development of the subtle body and that cultivates in hand with the mind, and both together expand beyond the visible horizon in which the Ego dwells and one any longer feels the need to prove anything, or fight in the UFC and be the best in the world and wear a belt. I think such requirements of the simple mind simply fall away and they don't feel the need to show off, and what isn't on the media nowadays just as well doesn't exist.

 

I have had many things in life. Many gifts, material and otherwise. A lot of people i know have wished for these things all their life and many will continue to wish for them for the rest of their lives. At the same time, i know of others like me, who parade these virtues and acquirements on a daily basis. (I also lack much)

 

The difference between them and I, is that i am satisfied and my satisfaction and gratitude is beyond my ego, beyond my need show that i AM capable or i have more than person A or person B.

 

Buddha did not go around forcing people to listen to what he had to say, nor did he say he was the smartest man in the world and challenge anyone to his wisdom. Instead he said, listen to what i have to say and derive out of it your understanding. I believe that those who seek something with their heart will have that thing come to them.

 

MMA and External Martial Artists seek to perfect themselves like any profession aspires to do. But their skills external as they are can only be honed against an external opponent. You cannot apply an arm bar to a surge of Qi projected from someones palm to their head which knocks them out. Although external martial artists need not think about this, i think masters of the internal arts appreciate this truth and they understand that, bringing a gun to a knife fight would not be fair.

 

If a simple accupuncture needle placed in the right place can stop someones motor control or sensation, why is it so difficult to imagine that a master of the internal arts could project Qi to stimulate the same or other points or organs for a similar effect?

 

The bruised skin on the chest after a punch is easy to heal, but what of a punch that uses 1/4th the physical energy that happens to disrrupt the hearts' function entirely? Fair in a fight? - What if the other person wasn't even aware of what he was up against? Would you fight someone who is rumored to have killed several people without even punching them, because you want to show off or prove something? - Is it worth your life, what if you are wrong? - What do you gain if you are right, but a bigger Ego?

 

I can imagine that in the areas of the world where the Internal and External application of Martial Arts are in greater unity a similar unwritten understanding would exists. If you could wield tremendous internal power, would you use it against someone who could not defend against it? - Do you step on a bug just because YOU can?

 

I am just a little worm now, wriggling up the ladder of the Tao, but i have been an external Martial Artist for a long time and this is my understanding. I think its a matter of honor and the appreciation one has for life. I am certain that there are many masters who posses such power, but they do no teach it to everyone because with great power comes great responsibility. I think in a way that is why the universe only grants such feats to people through cultivation ONLY when their mind is in balance with the body and spirit. So that when one is given the AXE to wield, he has the good sense to know that it is not used for chopping down people, but wood to heat a fire and warm your family at night (Even though you could chop down people to prove a point)

 

If i ever become such a person, i would not go to the UFC for eg. to fight and hurt people and if i did, i would only apply external Martial Arts, not anything that could damage them beyond what is necessary. If you are an internal martial arts master that can shoot balls of chi from his ass, then using that power in eg. a UFC fight and winning, does not mean you are a better External Martial Artist, it means you are a better Internal Martial Artist, and if you had any balls you'd find an equally good practitioner of the internal arts to pummel your internal organs with from a distance while sitting in lotus to prove who is better.

Power and RESPONSIBILITY and fair game.

 

 

What do you think? - I am interested.

 

I think this is exactly right. Precisely. Since anyone who exercises and spars, especially for many years, has demonstrated in a big way their intent and resolve. A qi-user would have a lot on their plate when facing someone who has put so much focus and tenacity into their practice of external martial arts. Qi is not some magic pixie dust. The real magic pixie dust is intent, and unfortunately or fortunately, the hard stylist has equal access to intent! The qi model is at best a refinement of what intent can accomplish, and that refinement only works after you allow your mind to accept a different reality of how the world works, which is not a realistic or reasonable choice for a lot of people. Lots of people like their reality just as it is and are not willing to change it. Especially not just to kick more ass -- that's a shallow motivation and is insufficient for changing the flavor of one's reality.

 

There is another problem too. This problem is connected with intent. Since hard stylists don't need to alter their model of reality to get results, their intent is more honest right from the beginning.

 

A qi-user is first somewhat dishonest to himself/herself. Because when you first begin practicing qi, you may not believe that reality can work in a different way, that it can have another side to it. So the intent is explorative at best, or dishonest at the worst. The intent is not as purely focused on ass kicking as in the hard style, because part of the intent is dissipated with doubts about the reality of qi and so on. In time all that can be overcome and intent can become pure and very honest once again, but it might takes 30 years, and it's uncertain. It's predicated upon a total inner change.

 

I'm not touching this one with a 10 foot pole

Edited January 3, 2010 by effilang

[goldisheavy]

You cannot apply an arm bar to a surge of Qi projected from someones palm to their head which knocks them.

 

I don't think you understand what's going on in this case. In this case, it's a contest of wills. It's a clash between two worldviews. In one worldview, qi energy projections are real. In another they are not. What you don't understand is that neither worldview is inherently correct, and what actually manifests depends on many factors. Hard stylist has his intent not only on his style and on kicking your ass, but his intent is also magickally maintaining a reality in which qi simply does not exist.

 

This is why hard-core skeptics always find nothing but fraud when they search for magick. Why is that? Because skeptic's mind is just as magickal! That's why! A skeptic can create his reality just as much as the magick user can create hers. See the point? Skeptics and physicalists run on the same set of batteries as Buddhas.

 

So while it's possible to overcome all that with an internal style, don't assume it is a given. You must have a very superior insight and very strong belief in your reality. Stronger than your opponent. It's not trivial, especially if you yourself started out with the same beliefs about the world as the hard stylist. Then you're actually at a disadvantage, because while you worked to change your perception of the world, hard stylist focused on kicking more ass. So you have some catching up to do.

[enouch]

I don't think you understand what's going on in this case. In this case, it's a contest of wills. It's a clash between two worldviews. In one worldview, qi energy projections are real. In another they are not. What you don't understand is that neither worldview is inherently correct, and what actually manifests depends on many factors. Hard stylist has his intent not only on his style and on kicking your ass, but his intent is also magickally maintaining a reality in which qi simply does not exist.

 

This is why hard-core skeptics always find nothing but fraud when they search for magick. Why is that? Because skeptic's mind is just as magickal! That's why! A skeptic can create his reality just as much as the magick user can create hers. See the point? Skeptics and physicalists run on the same set of batteries as Buddhas.

 

So while it's possible to overcome all that with an internal style, don't assume it is a given. You must have a very superior insight and very strong belief in your reality. Stronger than your opponent. It's not trivial, especially if you yourself started out with the same beliefs about the world as the hard stylist. Then you're actually at a disadvantage, because while you worked to change your perception of the world, hard stylist focused on kicking more ass. So you have some catching up to do.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Guys I can't talk to much about it but...the story about Chang and Tyson is true! Tyson got put under! Just one case though.

 

IMO practice your qigong for health and awareness. Practice whatever MA you like.

What I have seen is that, for the most part, hard styles are for the young until they get the broken bones, etc. then many switch to internal styles.

 

 

Thank you, Ya mu for a kind and honest response.

[effilang]

I don't think you understand what's going on in this case. In this case, it's a contest of wills. It's a clash between two worldviews. In one worldview, qi energy projections are real. In another they are not. What you don't understand is that neither worldview is inherently correct, and what actually manifests depends on many factors. Hard stylist has his intent not only on his style and on kicking your ass, but his intent is also magickally maintaining a reality in which qi simply does not exist.

 

This is why hard-core skeptics always find nothing but fraud when they search for magick. Why is that? Because skeptic's mind is just as magickal! That's why! A skeptic can create his reality just as much as the magick user can create hers. See the point? Skeptics and physicalists run on the same set of batteries as Buddhas.

 

So while it's possible to overcome all that with an internal style, don't assume it is a given. You must have a very superior insight and very strong belief in your reality. Stronger than your opponent. It's not trivial, especially if you yourself started out with the same beliefs about the world as the hard stylist. Then you're actually at a disadvantage, because while you worked to change your perception of the world, hard stylist focused on kicking more ass. So you have some catching up to do.

 

A brute man can damage someones liver with a punch.

 

A likewise brute man, who studied the internal arts can not only cause the same damage with a physical punch, but also heal that liver afterwards and balance it's energy and reduce the side effects of that damage.

 

One is only cultivated internally, the other externally. If a man believes with all his heart that he makes the best donuts in the world, while another believes with all his heart that he is the best archer in the world. You can't expect to put both of them in a ring, give one guy donuts and the other guy a drawn bow and expect the baker to win, just because he has STRONG intent and belief. Is is WHAT you believe in also and what you practice that matters and internal power to me, is greater than external.

 

The limited extent to which the every day MMA professionals' mind is cultivated, only goes as far as the intent they have trained over the years to help the mind overcome the body and push the muscles harder.

 

Water need not go through the still rock, but simply envelops it and streams around it effortlessly. The rock may believe to be strong and unmovable, with big muscles and a strong mind to push those muscles further and harder against the water, but the water cares not of this... and soon enough the rock is eroded.

Edited January 3, 2010 by effilang

[Sloppy Zhang]

What do you think? - I am interested.

 

Just because I have "graduated from my ego" doesn't mean I can't compete in a fighting competition.

 

Just because I don't have anything to prove doesn't mean I can't be there.

 

If I had the level of development that many masters claim to have and could do some of the things those stories say some of those masters could do, I'd step into the ring, face the guy, deflect his attack, stand in the middle of the ring, with my guard down (that way he will keep attacking and the fight wouldn't be stopped because neither of us were doing anything), and keep deflecting his attacks. I'd use my rooting power to prevent being taken down. If it looks like I'll be hit, I'll use direct qi to that area so when he hits he will hurt his hand a bit (but not break it).

 

I'd do that for 3-5 rounds, then proceed to be declared the winner because I controlled a dominant position in the ring for the entire time.

 

Then everyone will know of my style, and people would study it and practice it for years to come...

 

And that story is pretty much how every traditional martial art (including the internal martial arts), came to prominence.

[effilang]

Just because I have "graduated from my ego" doesn't mean I can't compete in a fighting competition.

 

Just because I don't have anything to prove doesn't mean I can't be there.

 

If I had the level of development that many masters claim to have and could do some of the things those stories say some of those masters could do, I'd step into the ring, face the guy, deflect his attack, stand in the middle of the ring, with my guard down (that way he will keep attacking and the fight wouldn't be stopped because neither of us were doing anything), and keep deflecting his attacks. I'd use my rooting power to prevent being taken down. If it looks like I'll be hit, I'll use direct qi to that area so when he hits he will hurt his hand a bit (but not break it).

 

I'd do that for 3-5 rounds, then proceed to be declared the winner because I controlled a dominant position in the ring for the entire time.

 

Then everyone will know of my style, and people would study it and practice it for years to come...

 

And that story is pretty much how every traditional martial art (including the internal martial arts), came to prominence.

 

I never said, one cannot do, but i will say that one never does without reason or purpose, even when seeking union with the Tao... one is seeking.

 

If you can tell me why you would do what you just explained up there. Your motivation and reason for doing it and your expectations. Then you will answer your own question.

 

The moment you chose to do something, it means you are physically manifesting and acting upon a desire. Desires are not bad or wrong on their own, it is the nature and constitution of the desire that defines the level of a true Master in my opinion. And one need not be a master to apply this principle to their daily lives.

 

PS: goldisheavy. i do not agree with you that intent or belief in something is all that is required, the something and its effectiveness is just as important as the level of dedication, intent, belief. So i think you need to ask yourself what is more powerful, the internal or the external? - Then ask yourself: why you are registered at Tao Bums. : )

Edited January 3, 2010 by effilang

[Sloppy Zhang]

If you can tell me why you would do what you just explained up there. Your motivation and reason for doing it and your expectations. Then you will answer your own question.

 

Why not?

Edited January 3, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang