Taoist views on Buddhist way

[exorcist_1699]

Differences between Buddhist and Taoist ways of cultivation, from Taoist standpoint are:

 

1) Buddhism talks a lot about things happen at final stage , while Taoism talks a lot about things at initial stage.

 

2) Taoist way is more suitable for middle and old-aged guys, while Buddhist is more suitable for young people ,especial teenagers, in terms of getting real achievement.

 

3) While Buddhist way only targets at spiritual immortality, Taoist targets at both physical and spiritual

immortality .

 

4) Taoist ways talk about method, fortune , companion and place(法,財,侣,地 ),Buddhist seldom mention them.

 

5)Taoist recognizes that female and male's way of cultivations are different due to their physiological differences, at least at initial stage ; In Buddhist cultivation, there are no attention to such differences.

[Marblehead]

Wow! I sure am glad you are not talking about the Taoism I understand.

 

Peace & Love!

[goldisheavy]

Thanks exorcist.

 

Can you please elaborate on item number 4? I think the Buddhist equivalent would be the 8-fold path:

 

1. Right View

2. Right Intention

3. Right Speech

4. Right Action

5. Right Livelihood

6. Right Effort

7. Right Mindfulness

8. Right Concentration

[C T]

Differences between Buddhist and Taoist ways of cultivation, from Taoist standpoint are:

 

1) Buddhism talks a lot about things happen at final stage , while Taoism talks a lot about things at initial stage.

 

2) Taoist way is more suitable for middle and old-aged guys, while Buddhist is more suitable for young people ,especial teenagers, in terms of getting real achievement.

 

3) While Buddhist way only targets at spiritual immortality, Taoist targets at both physical and spiritual

immortality .

 

4) Taoist ways talk about method, fortune , companion and place(法,財,侣,地 ),Buddhist seldom mention them.

 

5)Taoist recognizes that female and male's way of cultivations are different due to their physiological differences, at least at initial stage ; In Buddhist cultivation, there are no attention to such differences.

1) Buddhists talks a lot. Taoists hardly speaks. According to some, they do not need to say so much.

 

2) That is why you often see Buddhist preachers hang out at rave parties, clubs and rock concerts.

They chill out.

 

3) Buddhists do not have physical bodies, hence they have no need to 'target' such. Try archery sometime.

Its good for the spirit.

 

4) Here is where the Taoists starts to overtake the Buddhists in terms of vocal expressions.

 

5) No attention directed to said differences because Buddhists do not recognize differences.

 

Nice thread, by the way.

Edited January 4, 2010 by CowTao

[goldisheavy]

While Buddhist way only targets at spiritual immortality, Taoist targets at both physical and spiritual

immortality

 

I've run into this attitude before. I think the idea behind this attitude is that Buddhists ignore the material world, while Taoists pay attention to it. Taoists who have this attitude tend to believe in substance and in objective reality, etc. To them spirit is separate from the mind and the matter is also separate. So when they hear Buddhists talk about mind, they conclude that Buddhists are only talking about a small part of reality and are ignoring the rest of reality. Taoists with this attitude don't really understand that the fault is with them -- they hold physicalists ideas in their minds! If Taoists could understand how to dissolve their physicalists ideas about the world, suddenly what Buddhists say about the mind is what Buddhist say about the world and everything, because the nature of the world is the nature of the mind, it's the same thing. So suddenly when you understand mind, you understand everything and nothing is ignored. How cool is that? It's because Taoists don't understand the scope of the mind, they think the mind is strictly in the head, and thus Buddhists who keep going on and on about the mind are living in their heads according to these ignorant Taoists.

 

But the real Taoists like Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu understand correctly what the mind is, and wouldn't find any faults with Buddhism, except one -- Buddhists tend to be too serious. Buddha himself was terrible -- he's never cracked a single joke. Not even one. Buddha, to my knowledge, has never made his monks or nuns laugh. Instead he kept harping on and on and on about cultivation, insight, wisdom, blah blah blah. No joke. No humor. Nothing. This is a serious serious flaw in Buddhism and in Buddha. And Chuang Tzu would certainly laugh at Buddha, while also laughing at the foolish alchemical brand of Taoist as well, for different reasons.

 

You know, before you extend your life, learn to enjoy it, right? Most people don't enjoy their lives, but yet they seek to live forever. It's pretty mind-boggling. If people didn't fear the unknown, and if there was no social taboo on suicide, I think the vast majority of people would kill themselves instead of trying to live forever. It is grossly deluded to seek to prolong the experience you don't enjoy as a means to begin enjoying it.

[Taomeow]

Here's a few observations I've made of taoist and buddhist drivers:

 

Taoists don't honk in traffic.

 

Buddhists honk, point a finger, shout that you must not look at the finger, that the traffic is your karmic fault, that the traffic doesn't exist and is just an illusion, which is also your fault, and that the middle finger they're sticking out is YOUR finger. And keep honking.

 

Taoists give it gas when they want to get somewhere. Buddhists apply the brakes.

 

Taoists get speeding tickets, buddhists get parking tickets.

 

Taoists have invented air bags to soften the impact of head-on collisions. Buddhists have put "death or serious injury may result" labels on them.

 

Taoists check the mirrors often when they drive. Buddhists never do, because they expect to see themselves in the mirror.

[Sunya]

Here's a few observations I've made of taoist and buddhist drivers:

 

Taoists don't honk in traffic.

 

Buddhists honk, point a finger, shout that you must not look at the finger, that the traffic is your karmic fault, that the traffic doesn't exist and is just an illusion, which is also your fault, and that the middle finger they're sticking out is YOUR finger. And keep honking.

 

Taoists give it gas when they want to get somewhere. Buddhists apply the brakes.

 

Taoists get speeding tickets, buddhists get parking tickets.

 

Taoists have invented air bags to soften the impact of head-on collisions. Buddhists have put "death or serious injury may result" labels on them.

 

Taoists check the mirrors often when they drive. Buddhists never do, because they expect to see themselves in the mirror.

 

LOL funny, but clearly you've never met any real Buddhists.

[Taomeow]

LOL funny, but clearly you've never met any real Buddhists.

Clearly.

Edited January 4, 2010 by Taomeow

[exorcist_1699]

Thanks exorcist.

 

Can you please elaborate on item number 4? I think the Buddhist equivalent would be the 8-fold path:

 

Hi, Goldisheavy

 

Taoist emphasize on "Way, Fortune,Companion and Place" , its implications are unique and are quite different from those of Buddhism; I try to explain them as follows in the sequence of importance:

 

1) Way( 法 ): Understanding the correct ways is always the most important thing . However, knowing the complete and correct steps does not necessarily guarantee that we can 100% succeed in attaining immortality . The other 2~3 conditions are also necessary:

 

2) Fortune (財) : There are two aspects:

 

2a) Internal fortune : It refers to how much jing and qi we had / accumulated when we came across the

Taoist way . Insufficient jing and qi prevents us from attaining the "feeling" or level, therefore makes us doubt the power of Tao. In this sense, it seems karma- related. Meeting Tao in young age and stick to it is therefore something fortunate.

 

2b) External fortune : It refers to physical wealth or force which safeguard our physical body.As long as we have not attained the stage of nourishing Yang-shen(陽神) and controlling it at our own will , the safety of our physical body is still something important . So, external fortune is somehow needed .

 

3) Companion ( 侣 ) :Also divided into two :

3a) Internal : It is said that an Immortal person "不死人" will arise from us , at certain stage , guiding us safely through the process..

 

3b) External: Our friends/partner who safeguard us in the whole process of cultivation:

 

-)In the case of Dual cultivation , it refers to the opposite sex : As long as Yin and Yang are inter-dependent,

in cultivation when both qi and shen are having intercourse, for example , whoever wakes up first , she/he should not leave the spot carelessly, putting the other in great danger ..

 

-) In the case of Single cultivation . It refers to the partner who safeguards us in emergence: for example :

when in very deep meditation ( for days ) ,somebody may not be able wake up himself, he therefore relies on his partner to call him / hit a drum besides his ear...

 

4) Place (地) : Famous mountains and caves that already accumulate lot of good- quality of qi , which help our cultivation.

Edited January 4, 2010 by exorcist_1699

[DalTheJigsaw123]

What an awesome thread! Thanks!

[goldisheavy]

Hi, Goldisheavy

 

Taoist emphasize on "Way, Fortune,Companion and Place" , its implications are unique and are quite different from those of Buddhism; I try to explain them as follows in the sequence of importance:

 

1) Way( 法 ): Understanding the correct ways is always the most important thing . However, knowing the complete and correct steps does not necessarily guarantee that we can 100% succeed in attaining immortality . The other 2~3 conditions are also necessary:

 

2) Fortune (財) : There are two aspects:

 

2a) Internal fortune : It refers to how much jing and qi we had / accumulated when we came across the

Taoist way . Insufficient jing and qi prevents us from attaining the "feeling" or level, therefore makes us doubt the power of Tao. In this sense, it seems karma- related. Meeting Tao in young age and stick to it is therefore something fortunate.

 

2b) External fortune : It refers to physical wealth or force which safeguard our physical body.As long as we have not attained the stage of nourishing Yang-shen(陽神) and controlling it at our own will , the safety of our physical body is still something important . So, external fortune is somehow needed .

 

3) Companion ( 侣 ) :Also divided into two :

3a) Internal : It is said that an Immortal person "不死人" will arise from us , at certain stage , guiding us safely through the process..

 

3b) External: Our friends/partner who safeguard us in the whole process of cultivation:

 

-)In the case of Dual cultivation , it refers to the opposite sex : As long as Yin and Yang are inter-dependent,

in cultivation when both qi and shen are having intercourse, for example , whoever wakes up first , she/he should not leave the spot carelessly, putting the other in great danger ..

 

-) In the case of Single cultivation . It refers to the partner who safeguards us in emergence: for example :

when in very deep meditation ( for days ) ,somebody may not be able wake up himself, he therefore relies on his partner to call him / hit a drum besides his ear...

 

4) Place (地) : Famous mountains and caves that already accumulate lot of good- quality of qi , which help our cultivation.

 

This is very interesting.

 

Thank you exorcist_1699, many bows to you.

 

It seems similar to the Buddhist 8-fold path. Of course it's not the same, but I see some overlaps. The Taoist method/way, fortune, companion, place, seem to emphasize the practical side more explicitly than the Buddhists, whom limit themselves at a pretty high level of abstraction in their 8-fold path.

 

I have a question, which I hope you can answer (or anyone else, please chime in):

 

Suppose you attain immortal yang shen (do I understand correctly that yang shen is an immortal body?). This is all well and good. However, why would life become better at that point? And would it? If you fly around in an immortal body, how can you guarantee you won't get stuck in some bureaucracy and other stupid situations? Sure you can always fly away, since you're less stuck in any situation due to the immortal body, but don't you think there is a chance that you'll have a stream of unsatisfactory experiences that you'll constantly have to run from? In other words, what is the purpose of an immortal body? If it's to satisfy the desires, surely the worlds you will arrive in will have competition and contention, and soon you'll need to run away again. But if you don't have any desires that need satisfaction, then why even bother with the immortal body?

 

It seems like there is an assumption that immortal body solves all the problems, but is that true? Is that something you take on faith, or there is a logical reason to believe it?

Edited January 4, 2010 by goldisheavy

[rex]

To paraphrase Dumas, all generalizations are dangerous, including mine:

 

1) Buddhism talks a lot about things happen at final stage , while Taoism talks a lot about things at initial stage.

Buddhism has extensive teachings on getting there by a number of different routes categorised under ground, path and fruition.

 

2) Taoist way is more suitable for middle and old-aged guys, while Buddhist is more suitable for young people ,especial teenagers, in terms of getting real achievement.

This is more down to capacity and inclination then a particular path. Both Taoism and Buddhism have methods to repair the 'alchemical workshop' for laying a strong foundation for spiritual practice. The earlier one starts the better.

 

4) Taoist ways talk about method, fortune , companion and place(法,財,侣,地 ),Buddhist seldom mention them.

Sure they do - there's teachings on Windhorse/Lung Ta and Noble Sangha.

 

5)Taoist recognizes that female and male's way of cultivations are different due to their physiological differences, at least at initial stage ; In Buddhist cultivation, there are no attention to such differences.

In Buddhist Yantra Yoga males and females start the physical postures and breathing exercises on different sides of the body.

 

edited for tpyos

Edited January 4, 2010 by rex

[forestofclarity]

Exorcist, it would be interesting if you ever did some sort of beginner's guide to Taoism.

 

 

 

One thing I've found is that in the West, anyway, Buddhism seems to be more accessible. I likely may have down more of a Taoist path if there were good teachers around. As it is, Taoism seems 1) more coded; 2) requires a great deal of continuous, ongoing attention from a teacher; and is 3) seemingly short on good teachers in the West.

 

Also, Taoism is much more expensive!

[exorcist_1699]

This is very interesting.

 

Suppose you attain immortal yang shen (do I understand correctly that yang shen is an immortal body?). This is all well and good. However, why would life become better at that point? And would it? If you fly around in an immortal body, how can you guarantee you won't get stuck in some bureaucracy and other stupid situations? Sure you can always fly away, since you're less stuck in any situation due to the immortal body, but don't you think there is a chance that you'll have a stream of unsatisfactory experiences that you'll constantly have to run from? In other words, what is the purpose of an immortal body? If it's to satisfy the desires, surely the worlds you will arrive in will have competition and contention, and soon you'll need to run away again. But if you don't have any desires that need satisfaction, then why even bother with the immortal body?

 

It seems like there is an assumption that immortal body solves all the problems, but is that true? Is that something you take on faith, or there is a logical reason to believe it?

 

Both Taoism and Buddhism claim that the yin-mind (陰識 ) , seed of eternal transmigration , is the source of all our sufferings: it is short-lived , limited and unfree . Having it changed to a Yang-Shen , I think should solve most problems.

 

Besides, your idea makes me think of an American film called " Cocoon" I saw before , I think we humans living on this globe are not living the highest form of existence . As far as I know, we are always exploring things unknown and super...

Edited January 5, 2010 by exorcist_1699

[Gerard]

Wow! I sure am glad you are not talking about the Taoism I understand.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Same, he is not referring to Buddhism either.

 

Anyway the way I have experienced things, Taoism, Buddhism, and so many "isms" lose their value when you have attained a high level of development.

[exorcist_1699]

Exorcist, it would be interesting if you ever did some sort of beginner's guide to Taoism.

One thing I've found is that in the West, anyway, Buddhism seems to be more accessible. I likely may have down more of a Taoist path if there were good teachers around. As it is, Taoism seems 1) more coded; 2) requires a great deal of continuous, ongoing attention from a teacher; and is 3) seemingly short on good teachers in the West.

 

Also, Taoism is much more expensive!

 

I think there are historical reasons: My understanding is that Buddhism started spreading to the West through India and Nepal monks and British guys due to Britain's occupation of India. Zen Buddhism's introduction to the West was much later , partly through a Japanese professor called 鈴木 大拙 (すずき だいせつ), i.e.. D.T.Suzuki, his writings in the 1950's .So, as a whole, its spread to the West is much earlier than Taoism .

 

Although the famous book " The Secret of Gold Flower" was translated into German and read by some people in Europe in 1930's , it can only be viewed as a separate case . It was only when Bruce Lee's and other HK 's Kungfu films started to be broadcasted in the West, and the opening of China from the year 1980 that the features of Taoism are gradually known to the people outside China.

 

As I live in the East, so I know little about Taoism-related things happening in the West . I am astonished to hear that "Taoism is much more expensive!"

[forestofclarity]

Most Taoist teachings I've come across have been expensive. Most Buddhist ones have been available on dana. Not an absolute rule, just my experience.

 

 

As I live in the East, so I know little about Taoism-related things happening in the West . I am astonished to hear that "Taoism is much more expensive!"

[exorcist_1699]

Exorcist, it would be interesting if you ever did some sort of beginner's guide to Taoism.

One thing I've found is that in the West, anyway, Buddhism seems to be more accessible. I likely may have down more of a Taoist path if there were good teachers around. As it is, Taoism seems 1) more coded; 2) requires a great deal of continuous, ongoing attention from a teacher; and is 3) seemingly short on good teachers in the West.

 

I would say that Taoism adopt a more realistic attitude towards our cultivation by recognizing that most people , when they start their practice , are in some kind of entangled status .

 

How we live, sleep , eat , having sex...are all affecting our mind, our achievement, so all have to pay attention to , be carefully studied . After all a pseudo-mind is not so easily got rid off from us , and Enlightenment is unlikely to come upon most people . By reading many Chinese Zen master/monks' biography , you can know how difficult for people to attain the breakthrough, and even after, the guy who had succeed it , couldn't tell people exactly the steps how it happen ....not to mention the fact that most of them were gift guys, and became monks at very young age .

 

On the other hand, Taoist way of forgetting our body : "坐忘" (sit forgetting ) , clearly is something methodical: It is only by forgetting all physical forms , can we initialize high -quality qi . Yet it does not say that the body is illusory for all things , no matter physical or spiritual, are just different expressions/forms of qi . This argument is very important for those waiting and worrying about how qi is going to lead them to Shen.

 

In a word, Taoist steps are clearer or as you say, " more coded".

Edited January 5, 2010 by exorcist_1699

[goldisheavy]

Both Taoism and Buddhism claim that the yin-mind (陰識 ) , seed of eternal transmigration , is the source of all our sufferings

 

I don't buy this statement.

 

: it is short-lived , limited and unfree . Having it changed to a Yang-Shen , I think should solve most problems.

 

Well, it's worth a try. Immortal body is a good experience, even if it doesn't work quite how you imagine.

 

Remember, if the body has conditions and causes for its arising, it also has conditions and causes for its cessation. Thus, whatever you can manage to give birth to, is most certainly not eternal. It might be a better and longer lived body, but is it going to solve all the problems that appear right now in our society? Where does our society come from?

 

Besides, your idea makes me think of an American film called " Cocoon" I saw before , I think we humans living on this globe are not living the highest form of existence . As far as I know, we are always exploring things unknown and super...

 

I agree. I think cultivating a better body is a good idea. I just don't know if it solves all the problems. Personally, I doubt it.

[bindo]

 

 

Remember, if the body has conditions and causes for its arising, it also has conditions and causes for its cessation. Thus, whatever you can manage to give birth to, is most certainly not eternal. It might be a better and longer lived body, but is it going to solve all the problems that appear right now in our society?

What problems does Buddhism solve in our society right now?

 

And on a spiritual note;

 

"An uncomprimising theory of illusion solves no problem of our existence; it only cuts the problem out for the individual by showing him a way of exit."

 

"The theory of illusion cuts the knot of the world problem, it does not disentangle it; it is an escape, not a solution."

 

Sri Aurobindo - The Life Divine p. 486-487

Edited January 5, 2010 by bindo

[Taomeow]

What problems does Buddhism solve in our society right now?

Gautama Buddha explicitly stated that his dharma would be saving sentient beings for 500 years. It's well past expiration date by now.

[rex]

Gautama Buddha explicitly stated that his dharma would be saving sentient beings for 500 years. It's well past expiration date by now.

This sounds suitably dramatic - have you an explicit reference for this? There's a Japanese Sutra, the Daijuku Sutra that mentions five five hundred year periods, though I'm not aware of the name of it's Sanskrit or Pali sources - if they exist at all that is.

[Pero]

I would also be interested in a source. The only thing with 500 years I seem to remember is that the Dharma will last 500 years less because he taught it to women.

[Taomeow]

I would also be interested in a source. The only thing with 500 years I seem to remember is that the Dharma will last 500 years less because he taught it to women.

I read it in Li Hongzhi's book. He asserts his school is a buddhist-taoist one. I read it very long ago though, so I don't remember which sources he cited, but his whole rationale for reforming buddhist ideas and practices with a generous dose of taoist ones was based on this premise.

[rex]

Li Hongzhi - the founder of Falun Gong?